Getting that first 1000 hours when your country has zero GA

[mynameisjon]

I'm almost afraid to post this because there is so much vitriol towards freshly minted CPL holders. It just seems like everyone in the jets has forgotten that they were once 200odd hour CPL holders looking for that first job.

First off, I'm a 23 year old Singapore, and I got my license from the FAA.

There is virtually zero GA to speak of in Singapore, so being an instructor/bush pilot/banner tow is out of the question.

I have no qualms about grinding my way through the traditional instructor-caravan cargo-regional-major career route, only there really isn't one available to me

Sure there are instructor jobs overseas, but those usually require work visas etc, and most countries put up big road blocks by removing "Pilots" from their list of "Skilled Immigrants".

Singapore has
1. Singapore Airlines - Cadet program is open to citizens, but there seems to be some unspoken lower age limit that only applies to citizens and not Malaysian applicants.
2. Tiger Airways - Currently short of Captains and F/Os who can upgrade quickly.
3. Jetstar Asia - Advanced Cadet program requires 700 hours total time, Ab-initio is another quarter million down the rabbit hole.

The question is where does one even start?

Just wondering if anyone here was in the same boat and has managed to get those first 1000 hours.

[ReverseFlight]

Just wondering if anyone here was in the same boat

I know a lot of people in a similar situation. The problem is not unique to Singapore - you should note Hong Kong has essentially the same problem (being a penny-sized ex-colony) but for slightly different reasons (note HK / China / Taiwan / Macau are separate territories). I won't like to go into these reasons in an open forum.

I can only speak about Australia. Flight instructors (not merely pilots) are on the welcomed list and considered a skill immigrant under a 457 visa (no age limit). You can get your licence converted and then add on an instructor rating. Then get a 457 visa and prepared to spend some years instructing and building hours towards your dream pilot job. Good luck.

[mynameisjon]

When you say "flight instructors and not merely pilots", you mean that one is required to have a flight instructor rating to be on the skilled immigrant list?

[jackcarls0n]

We in Nepal have a similar problem since they is not variation to airline job as is in the US. However, the trend has been that the pilot with CPL gets a job as a FO, and the wait can be as long as 5 years. And people have waited, it is hard coz you cannot get a job elsewhere, visa restriction, license conversion, lack of hours.

However, where your FAA license can come handy and you can work as CFI in areas where FAA is being used like in Guam, Israel is one of them, etc. Being a Singaporean, I am sure you'd have not much problem, visa is much easier. But besides this, I am sure you can look into working in Malaysia, since both the countries has some kinda ties. Malaysia does has GA. But a lot of people to build hours do end up in Africa personally and try to get a job to fly the single engines etc.

Also, a private air charter company in singapore that does corporate work etc. should be an option right?

[jackcarls0n]

not to dis-hearten you but it seems that if your airline i.e. Jetstar or Tiger or Singapore Air doesnt open up flying jobs then even with 1000 hours getting a job would be difficult in other countries.

hearing and reading that i have done seems like 1000 hours or even 3000 hours dont matter until you have hours on type and are type rated.

[mynameisjon]

We in Nepal have a similar problem since they is not variation to airline job as is in the US. However, the trend has been that the pilot with CPL gets a job as a FO, and the wait can be as long as 5 years. And people have waited, it is hard coz you cannot get a job elsewhere, visa restriction, license conversion, lack of hours.

However, where your FAA license can come handy and you can work as CFI in areas where FAA is being used like in Guam, Israel is one of them, etc. Being a Singaporean, I am sure you'd have not much problem, visa is much easier. But besides this, I am sure you can look into working in Malaysia, since both the countries has some kinda ties. Malaysia does has GA. But a lot of people to build hours do end up in Africa personally and try to get a job to fly the single engines etc.

Also, a private air charter company in singapore that does corporate work etc. should be an option right?

No, Malaysia has very strict regulations protecting their own pilots.

[zondaracer]

Some countries are looking for flight instructors and will give visas. I saw recent postings in Bali and Korea. Otherwise you could try marrying a girl from a country with GA and move there!

[captainsuperstorm]

most countries ask minimum experience before to issue a work visa.with 200h and a cpl, forget about it.

-copilot: 500h or more on their jet.
-flight instructors: 500-1000 dual, 1500h-2000h total.
-captains: 3000h on type,last flight in the last 3 months.

the problem is not how to reach the minimum, the problem is that there is no job. even with these minimum, it' s not guaranteed, you got a job.
there is simply not enough jobs for the hundred of thousand pilots hanging around!

aviation is finished, it 's over, it's a dead market. if you want make money, and get a life, do something else, get a marketing degree, or business degree,....
Aviation is for egocentric dreamers of 22 yo boy who stay at mom' house collecting unemployment benefits.you will finish dead and dry, on the side walk.

[mynameisjon]

troll somewhere else superstorm. Nothing you've ever posted on these boards has ever proven remotely useful.

[pablo]

troll somewhere else superstorm. Nothing you've ever posted on these boards has ever proven remotely useful.

might not be 'useful' but superstorm is kinda right

Back to topic... is there a real demand for low-experienced flight and ground instructors in Australia?

Any Aussie could please confirm about this?

Thanks / Pablo

[Van Gough]

Back to topic... is there a real demand for low-experienced flight and ground instructors in Australia?

Any Aussie could please confirm about this?
Nope. Absolutely not. There are literally thousands of unemployed instructors in Australia. Some of the big schools are laying off senior (experienced) instructors.

aviation is finished, it 's over, it's a dead market. if you want make money, and get a life, do something else, get a marketing degree, or business degree,....
Yep. Thats true.:(

[captainsuperstorm]

it' s normal to be treated of a troll. no one like to hear the truth, especially when I see all these wanabes pilots who have spent a fortune and who probably will never fly after their commercial license.

There is no way to build time nowadays. Years ago, it was possible, africa, bush, USA as a flight instructor, tow banners, discovery flights over Grand Canyon,... Visa was not easy to get, but it was possible.

after doing time building, we joined regionals, aircharters, turboprop or light jet operators...
60-70 years ago, we were hired on the spot at our aviation club with a PPL.
Now you have to go all they way, and be insulted at the end by morons in the HR. I am totally disgusted by this aviation market.

many 20 yo boys with no job, and no opportunities.Not only in the aviation, it s everywhere, any sectors...
don't loose hope, keep your dream, don't put all your money in this aviation ****. avoid scams like P2F, and jobs where you work for free.Stay proud of this noble profession, don't settle down for these suckers! make them spit their money!show me the money! agree?

[jackcarls0n]

the job thing is bad every where, the aviation sector being hurt pretty bad, the hour building is not as easy. Out here (my place) pilots are well respected, but suddenly, better loan systems, the phillipines had brought in a lot of pilots and even in india and other countries have a lot of newbies (the 20 yo dudes). Though the simple rule going on right now is supply is more then demand.

My country, the trend has completely been destroyed by this, earlier it was airline coming to hire even before you came back with a license from another country and now its all the way around. You pay for your own TR and then work for free and no hope of logging more then 200-500 hours. Turns out the money spent on TR, the interest on it is less then your salary, so you end up losing money.

Well, since your an CFI, i guess you can help people who have FAA license in ur region to keep it current by doing BFR, IPC etc. All you would need would be an aircraft and a proper license to fly it.

[southernskyz]

Van Gough,

Quote..
"Nope. Absolutely not. There are literally thousands of unemployed instructors in Australia. Some of the big schools are laying off senior (experienced) instructors".

Crap!

Where did you get that info from?

The aviation scene in Australia is picking up, check the weekly afap website.
Australia has escaped the recession and doesn't have the current economic problems as Europe and USA.

Anyone here that's a grade 1 or 2 is virtually always in demand and employed, there are only 800 to 1000 Grade 3 Instructors in the country.

A person has got to have the local CASA licenses and have the right to live and work in Australia!

[LH2]

How about the Caravan style operations in Indonesia. You have the advantage of speaking a mutually intelligible language, and are in no worse position than the rest of the expats working there. Not ideal, but at least you get hours and experience.

[mynameisjon]

I assume you mean susi air?

They have a 1000 hour minimum TT requirement iirc.

And I do not speak Bahasa Indonesia. Singapore's national language is English.

[windypops]

aviation is finished, it 's over, it's a dead market. if you want make money, and get a life, do something else, get a marketing degree, or business degree,....

Ok but it will be of no use because you also claim there are no opportunities in any sector, if true what use is a marketing degree?

no opportunities.Not only in the aviation, it s everywhere, any sectors...

You also say

don't loose hope, keep your dream, don't put all your money in this aviation ****

How does one "keep their dream" by getting a "business degree".

60-70 years ago, we were hired on the spot at our aviation club with a PPL

Ahhh the "good old days" 70 years ago!!!


The good news for others looking for a job is that some of the people you are competing against for a job are just like this clown. The more of them there are the better, attitudes like this will not get far.

If I was looking for a job I would actually feel much more confident knowing some of the people I was up against had this sort of "it's not fair, the world owes me a job" attitude. My employer looks for "professional" attitudes, and this certainly isn't it.


Windypops

[pablo]

Windypops,

I think you should 'rephrase'... there are too many clowns willing to work for nothing or even pay to work, and unfortunately those guys usually get further than other decent, hard working guys. :{

I don't know what's your situation, but maybe next time you need to look for a job, the company you join asks you to pay for your captain upgrade, or your present company will try to undercut your deal because there's a bunch of guys willing to work for 1/2 of what you earn. :}
I would love to see if you would still keep your 'can do' 'go getter' 'positive' attitude. :E :ok:

[Stallone]

I assume you mean susi air?

They have a 1000 hour minimum TT requirement iirc.

And I do not speak Bahasa Indonesia. Singapore's national language is English.

National language is Malay

widely spoken language is English

[ReverseFlight]

Wow, so many posts since I last logged in ...

you mean that one is required to have a flight instructor rating to be on the skilled immigrant list

Yes. As I said, apply for a student visa for Oz. You'd have to convert your licence to CASA first and then get an instructor's rating here in Oz. It is true you need sponsorship from a flight school but these do exist. Preferably learn your FI rating at a flight school who is willing to sponsor you afterwards. When that happens, apply for a 457 visa and work there to build your hours. (Basically you could even acquire permanent Oz PR if you work in Oz for 2 out of the 4 years under 457.)

If you have the equivalent of FI, MEI and MEII, then you'd open a lot of opportunities in other countries.

[mynameisjon]

National language is Malay

widely spoken language is English

Bahasa Melayu is the STATE language.

Doesn't make a difference since the point was that not everyone in Singapore learnt Bahasa.

Thanks ReverseFlight. Will take what you said into consideration.

[LH2]

Doesn't make a difference since the point was that not everyone in Singapore learnt Bahasa.

Well, that puts you at a rather distinct disadvantage in that part of the world. No Mandarin either, I presume?

The 1000TT for Susi applied to Captains, as far as I'm aware. They fly multicrew even on single crew certified aircraft such as the Caravan.

From what I've been told, it's not a good company and neither are the employment conditions, but beggars can't be choosers, and it worked out very well indeed for the lad I knew who got his first few hundred turbine hours with them. If I may add, this European gentleman was capable of speaking decent Indonesian by the time he left, less than a year latter.

[mynameisjon]

Mandarin is fine with me.

Susi Air's reqs for the RHS is 400 TT, plus SEL. Something which I haven't got.

You're right about beggars not being choosers.

[windypops]

there are too many clowns willing to work for nothing or even pay to work, and unfortunately those guys usually get further than other decent, hard working guysCan you back that up with hard numbers that statistically those who P2F "get further".

I've just done a really crude survey of people I know (friends, colleagues and "other". "Other" are pilots I know well enough to say hi too on the ramp and have shared a brew and/quick chats with).

Of those less than 5% have been or are P2F.

I'm not going to comment on how I would feel if I lost my job to someone as they could do it cheaper, but I will say that this happens in many other industries. I have family who have lost jobs (outside of aviation) and had to re-apply for their job only to see themselves lose out. Is it tough? Of course it is. Is it unfair? Of course it is. Did they dwell on it? Of course at the initial shock and then the coping mechanism kicked in and every one of them has moved on to bigger and better things.

It can be tough in any industry and you can lose your job doing just about anything and aviation is no different.

I'm by no means supporting P2F, but I would suggest you try to move forward to the final stage of your coping mechanism which is "acceptance". Accept for the time being that P2F is here and that people will use it.

Next thing is to look for an alternative strategy. Perhaps to get a job outside of aviation (or a non-flying one in it) with a plan to do x number of hours "for fun" and to remind yourself why you love flying. I would also suggest part of the plan is to come on here less. It can be a very very depressing forum, even during the "good times" it was still full of doom and gloom as generally people only write about the crap time they are having, then they look back at that time and remember them as the "good old days".

What you very very rarely hear on here are the success stories and people loving their job. Why? Well they don't come on here very often. I'm one of them, I have the odd read on here once or twice a fortnight but I always leave feeling a bit sad. Just before I close down PPRuNe I have a quick look in one of the happier sections. Trust me this place is genuinely a depressing place to hang out.

The above probably sounds really patronising and I've re-read it and tried to tone it down a bit but there are too many words of advice such as "hang in there" etc which I just think is wrong. It suggests you're on your last legs and might just make it. You're not on your last legs and you might not make it.

I'm off to Jet Blast now.

[pablo]

Windypops,

I respect your opinion, and somehow agree that Pprune isn't the most positive place in the world, and that there's only 1 way to succeed, that is acceptance and adaptation as you correctly say.

But the situation the industry is, is absolutely crazy. Honestly I can't think of any other industry in which the employee has to pay such huge sums of money, under such risk, for so little return.

On the other hand, my statistic is somehow different.
Of the people I know (buddies or acquaintances) that have been hired by airlines in the last 3-4 years most of them (+95%?) indeed had to pay for their type rating and accept a very low salary.
Some of them have spent 3-4 years instructing and eventually realized there was no other way to move up the ladder (their IRI/CRI t&c weren't that competitive lately neither).

[captainsuperstorm]

pablo,
you are right.
but this work only if there are jobs outside.
with no job, you don't build hours, you stay at home....
in EU, there is NO job for a `200h pilot, and even a 10'000h captain like me has problems!

[LH2]

Mandarin is fine with me.

In that case, that I reckon puts you at a certain advantage once you have bagged some experience.

Susi Air's reqs for the RHS is 400 TT, plus SEL. Something which I haven't got.

:sad: They must have changed their requirements since 2009. Clearly a sign of the times that even them are getting choosy.

The only other idea I can think of: a year or two ago I heard there was demand for flight instructors in Indonesia and Vietnam (also in the Persian Gulf). Try researching if that's still the case, and consider getting an FI ticket. Other than this, I've run out of ideas.

Btw, what is an SEL? It is not a term that I recognise from my JAR training.

[mynameisjon]

SEL - Single Engine Land.

JAR doesn't have a distinction between Commercial Single Engine and Multi Engine?

I've been trying to look for instructor jobs in Indonesia... So far no replies to any emails i've sent. Have a feeling Indonesia requires in-person submissions with some grease on the wheels..

[windypops]

captainsuperstorm I would bet good money you are having problems because your attitude on here comes across on any application and any subsequent interviews, or your reputation precedes you.

It doesn't take much to get a bad reputation amongst your peers and this is a small industry where names of "good eggs" and "bad eggs" are discussed.

There are jobs for 200h pilots in Europe, I know of a few recently taken on, currently doing type ratings. If you had said there were "not many" jobs I would have agreed, but to say "none" is false.

As for 10,000 hour pilots there are jobs, I know of some right now open for application, just need to know where to look.

[LH2]

SEL - Single Engine Land.

Cheers.

JAR doesn't have a distinction between Commercial Single Engine and Multi Engine?

Under JAR / EASA, the licence is either private, commercial, or ATPL, and fixed wing or helicopter. Then we have type ratings for anything big (the actual rules are complicated), and class ratings for anything small. Within the latter, you have SEP-Land (Single Engine Piston, Land), MEP-Land (Multi Engine Piston), SET-Land (Single Engine Turbine, Land. What you need for a Caravan, and more of a type than a class rating in a way), and SEP-Sea, MEP-Sea, SET-Sea... perhaps a few other classes as well. This is just a rough outline, but essentially, under JAR (now EASA) rules you need to do an SET rating or conversion if you want to fly a 208.

I've been trying to look for instructor jobs in Indonesia... So far no replies to any emails i've sent. Have a feeling Indonesia requires in-person submissions with some grease on the wheels..

I get the impression that's very likely the case.

[mynameisjon]

I'm really kicking myself for not having gone and done my training in Europe now...

[jackcarls0n]

Seems like most of the posts takes a turn and ends up cursing how bad the industry is doing and the initial post loses the point. How to get 1000 hours.

Not sure if getting a license in Europe would make it any different, given the cost is too high, but anyway, maybe you should put it up with the Singapore Airlines and jsut send in your application either ways on the cadet program. Might work out?

I guess, you being a singaporean you should be given prefrence to work in Singapore Airlines then others. And singapore seems preety noble place, so they might just listen to you.

[captainsuperstorm]

There are jobs for 200h pilots in Europe, I know of a few recently taken on, currently doing type ratings. If you had said there were "not many" jobs I would have agreed, but to say "none" is false.good for them, too bad for you. :Enobody want YOU!!! because you have a bad attitude as well.:}

seriously, for 1 position, you have not 20, 30, 100 pilots, you have thousand of pilots who applied, this is why I say there is NO job.
you can look in africa, indonesia, europe, US, S america, it s everywhere the same.
get a clue, we are in a worldwide crisis and it s not finished.As long we stay in this bad climate of recession, market will be bad.

[mynameisjon]

Seems like most of the posts takes a turn and ends up cursing how bad the industry is doing and the initial post loses the point. How to get 1000 hours.

Not sure if getting a license in Europe would make it any different, given the cost is too high, but anyway, maybe you should put it up with the Singapore Airlines and jsut send in your application either ways on the cadet program. Might work out?

I guess, you being a singaporean you should be given prefrence to work in Singapore Airlines then others. And singapore seems preety noble place, so they might just listen to you.

At the risk of sounding like one of the guys who are complaining, I'll say this. Singapore is hardly a nation where being a citizen gives you a leg up in anything. Men are required to serve in the military and then saddled with 40 days of reserve liability per year for 10-15 years. Hardly attractive to employers.

I'm not sure what Singapore Airlines policy is exactly, but consider the following.

They recruit cadets in India. Minimum Age 18.
They recruit cadets from Malaysia. Minimum Age 18.
They recruit cadets from Singapore. Minimum Age 25-26 (not sure what the exact number is)

The official reason is that they have an agreement with Singapore's Airforce, in that any Singaporean wanting to be a pilot has to first go through the airforce. (Airforce has first dibs, if you will)

I have applied to Singapore Airlines throught their online application system, twice. Both times they were automatically rejected within 5 minutes of submission.

I've already resigned myself to never being able to fly for Singapore Airlines.

[windypops]

seriously, for 1 position, you have not 20, 30, 100 pilots, you have thousand of pilots who applied, this is why I say there is NO jobWell that's false isn't it? Even a ratio of 1000:1 is not zero. So you are still incorrect.

A bad trait to have as a pilot is not admitting when you might be wrong.

We took on a few pilots last year and didn't have anywhere near the numbers you are quoting applying. Like I say you need to know where to look, best way to do this is to network network network.

I got my first job by chatting to people and they effectively convinced the boss to take me on, albeit part time, but it worked. A few months later and a full time position came up with another operator, I applied and got in. Good T&C's (pension, health care, profit share, loss of licence and more), interesting routes, "performance A" aircraft etc.

I also appreciate that I've been very very lucky, but I like to think I made some of that luck myself.

[alphaadrian]

Mynameisjon

I dont wish to sound nasty or vitriolic by this comment but isnt this an issue that you should have addressed or thought about BEFORE obtaining your licence? Surely you had had some sort of "game plan"? The zero GA in your country didnt just happen overnight. You have (like thousands of others)trained for a career in which there are few jobs around and im sure you were told this before you began. It cant really come as a surprise.

I really wish you the best of luck and please believe me that my comments are meant to be scathing and arent even directly aimed at you. But i just cant understand how the desire to become a pilot sometimes seems to make some people lose sight of logic and realism.

good luck in your endeavours and that is sincerely meant

[mynameisjon]

Mynameisjon

I dont wish to sound nasty or vitriolic by this comment but isnt this an issue that you should have addressed or thought about BEFORE obtaining your licence? Surely you had had some sort of "game plan"? The zero GA in your country didnt just happen overnight. You have (like thousands of others)trained for a career in which there are few jobs around and im sure you were told this before you began. It cant really come as a surprise.

I really wish you the best of luck and please believe me that my comments are meant to be scathing and arent even directly aimed at you. But i just cant understand how the desire to become a pilot sometimes seems to make some people lose sight of logic and realism.

good luck in your endeavours and that is sincerely meant

No offense taken. Happens when the agent who sent you for the training course plays you out after failing to follow through on the employment part of the deal.

[jackcarls0n]

The Agent thing was certainly dubious, I hope something works out for you.

I didn't knew that Singapore Airlines and Singapore was like that, i did see the cadet ship for the indians and other citizens. That certainly sucks.

In my country, it has to be the citizen of the country that gets the job first. No matter what, else as per the new democrazy the government would be beaten up. They are few expats but very few to jst finish up the initial hours or till the time the pilots are ready and only if its a new kind of aircraft that doesnt fly in the country.

Did you check in botswana? they is a charter company that has a good procedure to hire. You can try.

and as per the previous posts, jobs like those do come from contacts and your network.

Btw why not join the airforce? that would give u jet hours straight right?

[mynameisjon]

I got rejected from the Airforce due to rather stringent medical criteria. Apparently flat feet disqualifies one from being selected.

[ReverseFlight]

A postscript to the original topic of this thread.

Japan is another country where there is no GA between flight school and the airlines. If a Japanese wannabe works in GA overseas and returns to Japan for a job in the airlines, the cost of conversion is US$80,000. This represents a huge barrier to entry despite the airlines paying for and bonding you for your type rating. The alternative is to train from ab initio in Japan which costs at least 3 times as much as the most expensive training in the rest of the world, which does not make economic sense.

[Aquafina1]

I have recently passed the 1000TT mark and let me tell you, it's still far far from easy as none of my hrs are on a modern jet :ugh: