Safety Pilot?

[AvEnthusiast]

I know this topic has been discussed probably hundred times. and going through several discussion even got more confused. Thus I need to reclarify everything.

- One can act as safety pilot only when the other is doing IR currency or practice beyone Dual required instructional IR time!?
- The Safety pilot can log those hours only as PIC VFR not intrument!?
- The safety pilot does not log the landings. he just leaves that column blank.
- Can safety pilot log cross-country time or no not at all. even if the other one is flying simulated IFR cross country flight?
- And you need to log less than the total flight time since you are not doing the T/O and Landing, then how do you show the time you enter the actual times of starting and stoping or you put the times you started as when the other one goes under hood?
- Or you can still log it even if it's cross country if you don't ATPL and can be considred time builting toward ATP.


What happens when you have FI but your FI license doesn't have let's say c-152 rating you have only c-172 on your FI but you have C-152 rating on your CPL/IR and happen to fly with a student. You can't log insturctional as you don't have c-152 rating on your FI (the case in philippines) and if you log Safety pilot what if it was xc flight.

- And is this only FAA accepted thing or no it's accepted in some other countries of CAA as well.
Actually here in philippines CPL holders just fly with others as safety pilot on any kind of flights not necessarily Insturment. So I would like to know how is it possible to log those hours and they can be counted and be legitimate.

[S-Works]

You need to contact the CAA that issued the licence that you are trying to log this time against. Different rules apply worldwide to what is loggable.

[FormationFlyer]

WRT to europe & JAA licences...

Unless it is an instructional sortie and the safety pilot is indeed the instructor then the safety pilot is only able to log SNY.

Unless they were the sole manipulator of the controls they cannot log ANY take-offs or landings. But logging these as an SNY is likely to raise eyebrows. In the UK I recommend nobody goes down this route.

The SNY time cannot count towards ANY flight time experience totals - INLCUDING total time. This means that SNY flying cannot count towards XC, nor instrument flight, nor IFR time. Absolutely nothing may be counted.

Frankly logging SNY I feel devalues the log book as its almost plane-spotter level logging.

This is a familiar question to me as an instructor - particular from hour building pilots desperate to gain hours. Ive heard the arguments about 'required crew' many times over. My basic advice is simple. Earn the money. Buy the flying. There is no short-cut to experience.

WRT C152/172 issue. Interesting because over here these are in the same class and therefore this issue does not occur. If you cannot teach on C152 - which means you should NOT be flying with a student. You cannot claim any hours as you are SNY.

Hours as safety pilot count for nothing.
At least thats the position in europe.

[AvEnthusiast]

Thank you guys. These different rules, different interpretations are headaches.

[Whopity]

In general a Safety Pilot is a person who can fly, but is there as a passenger and only becomes a pilot if forced to take control for safety reasons. On that basis, a safety pilot would not reasonably expect to log anything other than passenger time. Some administrations may differ but I expect most would not recognise time as a Safety Pilot as it is not defined in ICAO Annex 1 and is not included in ICAO Annex 1 Ch2 2.1.9 Crediting of flight time.

[AvEnthusiast]

but when you fly as authorized instructor then you log everything the landings I mean the same way as the students logs it?

[BillieBob]

You can put anything you like in your logbook - it is your personal record. The problem comes when you are submitting hours for the issue or re-validation/renewal of a licence or rating when the issuing Authority will have its own rules regarding what may and may not be counted. For example, you can log hours spent as a safety pilot but, in the UK you cannot claim them as experience towards the issue of an ATPL whereas in the US you can.

I'm not sure why you would want to log landings (except as a personal record) - I can't think of any experience requirement that includes number of landings other than for the issue of a type rating, in which case it is only landings on the type that count.

[mrmum]

Possibly a very reasonable comment, as the OP is in Afghanistan. However, for the majority of PPRuNe readers, who seem to me to be in JAA (soon to be EASA:sad:) countries, then it does matter for passenger carrying currency requirements.

[SNS3Guppy]

but when you fly as authorized instructor then you log everything the landings I mean the same way as the students logs it?

Obviously you're not flying in Afghanistan.

The regulations applicable to your question depend on the jurisdiction in which you intend to fly. In order to get a correct answer, you'll need to be specific. You mentioned the FAA, CAA, and that you're flying in the Philippines. Are you seeking Philippine regulation, FAA regulation, or some other regulation or air legislation/law?

[Whopity]

then it does matter for passenger carrying currency requirements.There is no legal requirement to log landings even for the 90 day rule. Under EASA, logging requirements will continue to be decided by the National Authority.

[AvEnthusiast]

Thank you guys for your inputs. Actually I wanted to know how the issue of safety pilot is considered globally. Yeah I found that FAA accepts it when practicing IR and JAA forget it. But in philippines CPL holders fly with PPL holders on Single pilot certificated airplanes and they both log and I don't know how they do it and if it is acceptable to their aviation authority but I have seen guys doing it. but then the funny part is even if you have a plane rating on your CPL but do not have it on your FI license you can not instruct on that despite it comes under same class and category.

[BigGrecian]

But in philippines CPL holders fly with PPL holders on Single pilot certificated airplanes and they both log and I don't know how they do it and if it is acceptable to their aviation authority but I have seen guys doing it. but then the funny part is even if you have a plane rating on your CPL but do not have it on your FI license you can not instruct on that despite it comes under same class and category.

I doubt very much that their doing it legally....:hmm: unless thay have some kind of 91.109 provision like the FAA.

To my knowledge the only authority which accepts safety pilot time is the FAA.

[SNS3Guppy]

- One can act as safety pilot only when the other is doing IR currency or practice beyone Dual required instructional IR time!?
- The Safety pilot can log those hours only as PIC VFR not intrument!?
- The safety pilot does not log the landings. he just leaves that column blank.
- Can safety pilot log cross-country time or no not at all. even if the other one is flying simulated IFR cross country flight?
- And you need to log less than the total flight time since you are not doing the T/O and Landing, then how do you show the time you enter the actual times of starting and stoping or you put the times you started as when the other one goes under hood?
- Or you can still log it even if it's cross country if you don't ATPL and can be considred time builting toward ATP.

Given that you're looking for input regarding all jurisdictions, I can speak to FAA regulation only.

A) One can act as safety pilot any time. How you define "safety pilot" and the purpose thereof, is another matter. Under 14 CFR 91.109(b), a safety pilot is required during simulated instrument flight, in order to supplement the pilots ability (or lack thereof) in conducting a visual traffic scan.

A safety pilot is not required at other times.

B) What the safety pilot can log really depends on the agreement of the crewmembers, and who is acting as pilot in command, as well as the type of aircraft in use.

Assuming for the moment a single-engine piston airplane not requiring a type rating, and which requires only one crewmember (Cessna 172, for example), then logging time as safety pilot is subjective.

You need to understand the difference between acting as pilot in command, and logging pilot in command time. Logging is not the same as actually being pilot in command.

A safety pilot who is not acting as pilot in command may log SIC time, but not PIC time for the duration of the flight. If the flight is operated in instrument conditions, the safety pilot may log instrument time, as may the pilot manipulating the flight controls, because instrument flight refers to conditions of flight. The same for cross country. Personally, I don't log cross country.

A safety pilot who is acting as pilot in command may log PIC as the pilot in command of an aircraft requiring more than one crewmember, in accordance with 14 CFR 61.51(e)(iii).

Whether the safety pilot is PIC or not has no bearing on whether he or she can log instrument or cross country time.

C) The safety pilot should not log landings, unless he or she performs them.

D) Again, the safety pilot can log the flight as cross country if desired. Remember that if not acting as PIC, the safety pilot is a second in command.

This brings up another issue; many won't recognize this time as SIC, and frankly many won't recognize time spent as pilot in command, when acting as a safety pilot. This is particularly true of employers, who will sneer at the concept. It's legal to do so; it's legal to log the time as described here, but whether it's recognized by insurance carriers, employers, and others, is another matter entirely. Logging PIC when you're not really the PIC, or logging SIC in an aircraft that doesn't require a SIC (per certification) can make you look bad. Use caution.

E) You do not necessarily need to log less flight time than total time, but the circumstances will dictate what you must or can do.

If you're acting as PIC but are the non-flying pilot, you're PIC for the duration of the flight. However, being PIC doesn't entitle you to log the time, except in the case of 61.51(e)(iii). If the other pilot removes his view limiting device (hood), a safety pilot is no longer required. Unless you begin to manipulate the controls and can log time as sole manipulator of the controls (51.51(e)(i)), then you can't log the time. You're also no longer the PIC of an aircraft requiring more than one crewmember.

If you're acting as SIC and the person under the hood is the legal pilot in command, then once the hood comes off, you're no longer required as SIC (safety pilot), and cannot log the time as PIC or SIC.

If the pilot manipulating the controls and wearing the view limiting device enters instrument conditions, you're still required because he or she is still operating by reference to instruments and using a view limiting device, regardless of the conditions external to the airplane. See and avoid is always the rule, IFR or VFR, IMC or VMC, and thus the safety pilot is still required. So long as you're acting as safety pilot, you continue to log the time accordingly (as PIC or SIC, depending on your status on the flight).

F) Holding an ATP has no bearing on the subject at all.

[tian yu]

Thanks for the clear up SNS3GUPPY!! :ok: Its good AvEnthusiast brought this up hehe*

[FormationFlyer]

BillieBob - You can put anything you like in your logbook - it is your personal record
Not quite - as I am sure you are aware it is actually a legal record, required by law and with minimum contents required by law. Falsification of records in the log book is a criminal offence in the UK/EU and subject to a fine/imprisonment if found guilty.

BillieBob - I'm not sure why you would want to log landings (except as a personal record) - I can't think of any experience requirement that includes number of landings other than for the issue of a type rating, in which case it is only landings on the type that count.

Because if you don't you cannot you prove that you meet the licence requirements for carriage of passengers, and therefore prove you are legal. Maybe a moot point most of the time but should the AAIB ask for your evidence.....(fingers crossed that you never end up in this situation).

Whopity - There is no legal requirement to log landings even for the 90 day rule. Under EASA, logging requirements will continue to be decided by the National Authority.

An interesting one that - Whilst it isnt mentioned in FCL 1.080 it is mentioned clearly in the AMC FCL 1.080 - so much so the example log book contains a column for logging landings (day and night) and it also clarifies the section about 'sole manipulator of the controls' as well. Which leads to to the myth here:

AvEnthusiast - but when you fly as authorized instructor then you log everything the landings I mean the same way as the students logs it?

Absolutely NOT. Landings are only logged by instructors when they are 'sole manipulator of the controls'. Instructors should NOT log landings made by students. It is common for me to not log any landings on circuit sessions...

[BillieBob]

....and with minimum contents required by lawAgreed, but that doesn't prevent you from entering any additional details that you wish - even time spent down the back sipping gin if you felt so inclined.
Because if you don't you cannot you prove that you meet the licence requirements for carriage of passengersIn over 12,000 hours of flying, I have never found it necessary to log a landing, neither do I recall seeing landings recorded in anyone else's logbook.
Whilst it isnt mentioned in FCL 1.080 it is mentioned clearly in the AMC FCL 1.080Neither of which have any legal standing. Furthermore, EASA Part-FCL.050 leaves the form and manner of a personal logbook up to the Competent Authority and so nothing is likely to change, in the UK at least.

[Whopity]

An interesting one that - Whilst it isnt mentioned in FCL 1.080 it is mentioned clearly in the AMC FCL 1.080 - so much so the example log book contains a column for logging landings (day and night) and it also clarifies the section about 'sole manipulator of the controls' as well. Which leads to to the myth here: There is no Myth here; JAR-FCL has no legal status except where it is specifically incorporated into the ANO. The legal requirements for log books in the UK are covered solely by Art 79(2) Detailed information about each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order must be recorded in the log book as soon as reasonably practicable after the end of each flight.

(3) The information recorded in accordance with paragraph (2) must include—

(a) the date, the places at which the holder of the log book embarked on and disembarked from the aircraft and the time spent during the course of a flight when the holder was acting in either capacity;

(b) the type and registration marks of the aircraft;

(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;

(d) information about any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying and instrument flying; and

(e) information about any test or examination undertaken by the holder of the log book whilst in flight. That's the "Must" anything else you chose to add is down to the owner of the log book.

[BillieBob]

....even the cheapest and basic FAA logbooks have a column for number of landings....Well bully for the FAA. Neither of the pre-JAR UK professional logbooks (CAA or Airtour) included a column for landings and since I long ago gave up logbooks in favour of an Excel spreadsheet (which doesn't have a column for landings either) it's all fairly academic.

[nick14]

Interesting debate,

Personally my logbook contains columns for both day and night t/o's and lands which I do record.

Just as an aside am I right in saying that if the safety pilot is carried he/she is required to have the same ratings as the guy/girl he is SP for? Or is it the case he must hold sufficient ratings in order to act as PIC for the conditions being flown in. ie if Simulated IF he must hold the aircraft rating plus IR/IMC?

Cheers