Ryanair Command or go for a play around the world as an F/O?

[zerotohero]

Just wondering what the thoughts are, I have the hours for command now and am looking to start the process soon enough, I do want to go see some of the world for a bit as currently single with no kids and nothing tying me down at all

Do I get the command and a year in the left seat then look about or do I just say sod it and apply to a few places and have a play in the world for a bit before it all gets serious? where do I come back to after is my worry more than anything, not that I am based at home at the moment mind!

[Fly4Fun]

If I were you, I would grab a command, put some hours under the belt and then go to see the world. If you have the chance try to enter the contract world as a Captain. I have some collegues that left to see the world on their early twenties as F/O and then returned for the same company still as F/O while the rest of us get upgraded. My point is: do not expect an upgrade anytime soon out there. Anyway that's your decision. :ok:

[captjns]

Much more marketable with at least 1000 of command time. Then you can play as a first officer and or captain.

No command, then you are type casted as a firist office until you have the opportunity to upgrade.

As they say... don't put off til tomorrow what you should do today.

[de facto]

go for the $$, the upgrade that is.:cool:

[Utrinque]

Travel - you are only 33.

To be marketable for the contract world (ie the contracts worth doing) you need at least 2000 hours in command - thats a little bit longer in FR - can you hack it?

There is a wide world out there - if you stay in FR you will have a command and most likely still not live at home for the foreseeable. Yes command is good - but in FR .. tricky one. If you travel then who knows .. you only live once etc etc .. go for it.

Deal or No Deal ... The choice is yours ... :confused:

[go around flaps15]

Take the command as a previous poster pointed out and go and put 1000 hours in a logbook from the left hand seat.

You just don't know when the next upgrade will come around.

[captplaystation]

Some of the companies you may contemplate working for on your world tour may be more comfortable to operate in from the LHS :ooh:

[aerobat]

Until you've been a Captain you are just a First Officer. Companies much prefer proven command capability and it widens your options.

[737 Jockey]

I got my command late last year and would advise you to go for it. You'll get to see a different part of Europe for sure ;0) and with the extra cash you can see as much of the world as you like! After a few years command experience you can look further afield and will have more options.

Just my opinion. Whatever you decide, best of luck!

[HighLow]

Jockey,
with respect, you sound like a new upgrade who actually had little or no choice been sent where u were sent...and at the same time you are trying to make the best of a bad situation.... not a bad attitude at all, but without knowing your personal situation, doesnt sound like you have major committments back home, family kids schooling etc.

Try having a home somewhere, and without any concern for your welfare, once you pass the command course, PB and DR give you a list of three bases (if you are lucky), and you shipped off, Personally, i don't know why they bother asking where one would like to be based....its a scam

Yup, everyone free to their opinion, but command in this company aint all its cracked up to be, jumping ship could equally be a more sensible move, if anything you will gain more control.... the RYR roster WILL change to 5 / 3 and if it takes you 3 flights to get back home to see family, well whats the point ???? Also , assuming as Captain you will be expected to sign up to this 3 man company scam, jumping ship at least you know you are not involved in tax evasion...

HighLow

Many people dont realise the **** deal the BRK contract really is,
they want to earn a bit of cash fast..
so when u retire what happens???? believe me, better opportunities out there and if my circumstance was different, I'd had jumped ship along time ago. New Upgrades are selling themselves short with these muppets!!

[AirSpeedLow]

Zero,

I am in exactly the same position as you but I've made the decision to jump ship!

I don't know how old you are but for me I'm hoping to have another 38years in this job and I'm sure another command will come around in that time! I would prefer to bide my time and get my command with a career airline in 7-9 years time, what's the rush?
As highlow said, the contract as a cpt you will be on will be 4/3 and for only marginally more money than the FO one (along with all of the extra responsibility and hassle!)!

Fortunately I have a base captain who I can talk to and he said that there would be no way I would get back into FR if I changed my mind mind in a couple of years! Keep in mind that the only way to get back would be by getting command in your chosen company and returning as a DEC!

So the choice is stick with the s**t you know (and the future stuff you don't know about!) or risk it somewhere else with the knowledge there's pretty much no turning back once the decision is made!

All the best!

[Damianik]

I would add my opinion:

when the market seems full of opportunities lots of people feels its safe to jump ship and i did so in 2008, before the crisis hit us, i have got a job in a nice career oriented operator and based in my home place, nice stable roster, long term possibilities, quick upgrade chances.
And at that time, PB was getting people back.

Guess what? crisis came around, no upgrade, company is letting people go and i am now since 2 years on the market and it is now the 3rd airline i change as a FO, always begging for something while other collegues are captains with old contracts in FR, no BRK.

I suggest 2 options: serious career airline like BA, Virgin, LH, AF or stick to FR, command and then go to play contractor as captain.

A captain today told me "do not rush to command if all u want is to leave and go play contractor, because i am now 50 and still beg around for some money and ticket home on days off, if you can find a career arline and relax there until your turn comes"

This is my 2 cents, i have been there, and it has bit me hard!

[Metro man]

It may be worth passing up the command for a "career" airline that you really want to work for and will stay at long term. Otherwise take the upgrade, get 1500 - 2000 hours in the left seat and then look around.

One of the employment agencies told me "Contracting is for Captains". Some airlines will never upgrade expats and you may be replaced at any time by a local f/o straight from training, experienced skippers are much harder to replace.

Financially you will be on 50 - 100% more money which is considerable when multiplied by a number of years. Also some companies don't treat the f/os too well.

Also you are much more employable as you can work in either seat.

A serious global crisis may delay your opportunity for upgrade for years if you turn this down.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

I think you guys are reading this all wrong, the guy is not looking to ditch FR for another job. He is looking to ditch FR and go backpacking around the world!!!!!

[d105]

Grab the command and put in 2000 hours with FR. It will greatly improve your chances of moving to another airline on the left seat.

As said before. Either try to get into a legacy and wait 10 years for command or prepare for a life on the move.

[ScottyDawg]

Command....Command - and then Command...

Nothing else to add to previous poster's comments supporting this option.

Except:- Read John Milton's "Paradise Lost" -
Quote - "It is better to reign in Hell, than to serve in Heaven" Unquote...

Just a thought..!!

Chheeers and good luck with the decision

[fireflybob]

Go for "quality of life" first and "standard of living" will follow - it doesn't work the other way round.

[Unregistered737]

Come on... you have been in the company 3/4 years now and you are wondering whether or not to take command. Listen to all those guys in the LHS b**tching and moaning about the company....do you want to be like that in 30 yrs time because you actually found it hard to leave once you were earning 90k (thats an FO's salary at BA after 10yrs!)

I am in exactly the same boat as you and I am not going to go for the command. Life in FR is great as an FO there is no doubt but as soon as you get that extra stripe your done for. Try moving on from FR in a few years down the line...you will be at the bottom of a seniority list and no doubt have to go back to being an FO and by that point your probably going to have more responsibilities mortgage/life/family/friends and at the point it becomes harder to leave.

if you are less than 30 jump ship now and you will have a good career with an airline that values you rather than s**ts on you. There are captains who have been in the company 10yrs plus get treated the same as a DEC with a month in the company. Do you really want that? Personally I want to be appreciated for the work i do and not become a glorified/underpaid bus driver.

At the end of the day its your decision and asking ppruners to make that decision for you isn't going to help. Look how many different mixed messages this thread has created.

Sit down and take some time to think what YOU want out of YOUR career.

U737

[737 Jockey]

HighLow,

As you say you do not know my personal situation so no problem that you guessed incorrectly ;0). I do have a young family and it is gut wrenching to leave them after each period of days off, but for me I made the right decision for the medium/long term. For me, a long stint in the RHS of a legacy carrier was not possible and heading off to the sandpit did not appeal (good luck to those who are going btw), it is as always, horses for courses.

Cheers!
:ok:

[Bokkenrijder]

Do you wanna be a contractor for your whole life, strolling around the earth, seeing lots of places and companies, just never a really good one, or do you want to be part of one of the majors in Europe, and be able to built a stable home life?Correct Studi, I couldn't agree more! :ok:

zerotohero,

My two cents: don't listen too much to the people encouraging you to go for a command. These are the same people who led you into this dead end street in the first place: low-cost airlines!

Grab the chance to join a quality airline, these chances don't pop up every day, as opposed to DEC contract jobs which are plentyful.

I frequently meet up with ex-EZY colleagues who are now trapped in the LHS; addicted to the money and unable to swallow their pride and take a pay cut to go to the RHS of a quality airline. It takes a lot of discipline to keep telling yourself that you're only staying for 1000 or 2000 hours in the LHS and then leave.

Most can't do it and end up stuck in the LHS and stuck in the merry-go-round of mediocre airlines with mediocre T&C's who take in DEC's until they decide to leave again for the next "less brown" pasture.

[silverhawk]

Take the command while it is available. Do 1000 hours PIC, then look at your options.
Command on your cv helps a lot later if you need it.

Do NOT get used to the extra pay whilst in LHS. This will enable a better choice of options later on.

Easier said than done but, above all, try to enjoy the job. Once upon a time we all did.

[VJW]

I may be in same position next year.

I agree with silverhawk - and one way I plan on not getting use to LHS pay, is I plan on using the extra money to crank up my type rating loan repayments.

Sounds sensible to me.

[northeast canuck]

Stay where you are and get your command. The aviation world is extremely volatile (especially at the moment) - if you leave without command time you may find it difficult if not impossible to get back in again. In the UK, you will be competing with all the pay-for-a-job newbies (as you know working for Ryanair), so your only options may lie abroad. But - many of those jobs require currency within the last 12 months for licence validation purposes which you might not have so you would be effectively shut out from those jobs. If you are lucky and manage to join a legacy carrier you may never see a command in your career due to lack of growth and many, many pilots ahead of you waiting their turn in the seniority system.

Getting the command first gives you options and protects your future.

[d105]

Bokkenrijder. I presume you work for a legacy? In that case it's easy for you to comment or gloat. I hope you realise not everybody is in privileged position.

Don't think you can argue with our advice. Unless the guy has an unsigned LH, BA, KLM/FR contract on his desk right now why shouldn't he go for the command.

I think you're misunderstanding what most of us are saying. Of course he should go for the legacy IF he has to possibility. But until that possibility comes around he should go for his command.

[beachbumflyer]

1 Get your command where you are and go to a major
2 Go to a major

Whichever comes first

[maverick777]

Guys what do we all as pilots & people want in life?
A good reliable income?
The ability to be at home with family as often as possibe?
A company who accepts & respects its staff?
A decent aircraft to fly?
A decent reliable or predictable roster?
Prospects of becoming a Captain/LTC/TRE?
All leading to a decent lifestyle?
People orientated management?
A good atmosphere at work?

So of all those things what do you have in ryanair?
Lets break these down 1 by 1 and see!

A good reliable income? - NO.....NOT as a new Captain!!!! 54,000 euro and 22.78 per SBH sector if permenent, or 120.50/hr as a BRK CP? ... Thats pretty MISERABLE to support a family on for future references and just about enuf to survive with few luxuries in life if single! Add to that that there have been practically no pay rises in 5 yrs in FR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If there has been it has been an insult and nullified by tax! Furthmore ryanair DOES NOT adjust pay in relation to inflation and currency changes recession or not. Currently the Irish governemt are increaseing tax by 7% on average. Ryanair are not increasing / changing pay accordingly!!

The ability to be at home with family as often as possibe?
Not in RYR....You may wait MANY years to get your home base ! How many years and hours in the back or jump seat listening to inaudible, pushy, ear-piercing PAs made my Cabin crew on less than the minimum wage do you have to endure before you can be at your home base?!! If you want to avoid that you have to relocate your family to your new base!!!

A company who accepts & respects its staff?
NOT if hell froze over !! O'Leary, O'Brien, Cawley, Wilson, Osborne, Millar -all the bosses. THEY DONT GIVE A flying-:mad: about pilots, CCs or Engineers - not an iota of a :mad:!! They LOATHE us! Case in point being - Number one cabin crew landing the plane - Beds and blowjobs - telling embraer in Brazil that they would pump billions into a pilotless a/c, giving themselve MASSIVE bonuses and paying 500m to shareholders whilst saying publicly "who else will we give the money to" :oh:

A decent aircraft to fly.. Certainly the 737-800w is a glass cockpit airplane and manageble in crosswinds IF you have decent handling skills, decent anti-icing and in fairness they rarely go with open HILs in ryr! Well proven safety for the LOCOs across the world. So this is a plus. Nice to be a skipper on!

A decent reliable or predictable roster?
Went from 5.2/5.3 to 5.4.5.4 company wide, but now a mixture of 5.4/5.3 and soon probably 5.3 as standard to come company-wide. Predictable? yes, but whats gonna happen? Uncertainty lingers.....if it does come into force will you as a new CP in FR have a choice? NO! Will you be told to F Off if you complain?Hell yes! Increased pressures on the circadian rythms and getting home from your remote European base which you had no choice but to goto!

Prospects of becoming a Captain/LTC/TRE?
Yes there are upgrade opportunities BUT there is now very poor financial reward, particularly compared to other similar and legacy carriers.

A decent lifestyle? in RYR? It depends what combination of the above you achieve. And it seems from my 5 years in this place that unless you are here 8 to 9 years or more AND at your original and home base near family, you are not reaching that decent lifestyle standard. SUch pilots are few in RYR.

People orientated management? . :) not if hell froze over in Ryanair!

A good atmosphere at work?
Never did i expect in my life that i would experience such negativity, anger, frustration, lack of accaptance,and distain towards a closed-door management system! Forget that.

It all points to not accepting a command upgrade here in ryanair....

Its a very hard decision to make!!. You make your bed you lie in it!

For all the years of taking the trashing and abuse and cuts from management and putting up with it do you accept to go thru alll that hard work in the interview, 4 long days in the sim, ground school, a month of line training, AND put up with more as a Captain in ryr, and accept this added pressure RELUCTANTLY and lack of support from management and low pay!

Its a masive culture shock to move to Arabia (Emirates Etihad Qatar GulfAir).

Just throwing my opinion and experiences out there to help the decision making process... :sad:

[zerotohero]

WOW

Really did not expect that much of a response, def a 50/50 split on thoughts, which is pretty much where my head is at with it all too!

Getting the command and 1000hours in the left seat does sound a good idea as then contracting doors open a lot wider, just as people say would I be happy going back as an F/O after that?
I think in a decent airline doing long haul yes, back to short haul after would be a no for sure cant handle these 4 sector days, long single sectors is what I am craving, I am not looking to settle down in the near future at all but maybe in 10 year time I would, running round the world is what I am after and a commuting contract would be perfect, maybe 21 on 10 off something like that, but as an F/O it might be a struggle is what I am thinking.

Just don't want to hang around in FR for the next 5 years to get enough time to go as DEC to some of the places that require 1000's of hours left seat to take you and really don't want to be a (yes captain F/O) in the far east as thats the impression I get from that part of the world.

But leaving FR would be a move I want to make, currently on a 5/4 old BRK contract and the money is ok, not great but ok, my command would give me €133.50 a block hour and I don't have that illegal company thing which is a big plus, that would def make me jump ship.

Wondering do I just say sod it and take a huge gamble, you never know whats out there until you go look I say.

[d105]

There's another thing I often think about.

So what happens when you can't get into a legacy coming from cadet school? Everybody blames the cadets for dragging down T&C's. So what are you saying, people aren't allowed to become pilots if there aren't enough places at the legacies to take them in?

What do you want them to do? Not work at all?

Zertothero: Make no mistake. You were hired as a Brookfield FO. If you want the upgrade you'll have to sign a new contract. €135 block is a thing of the past. 115 after deductions is reality. Compare that to the €85 block I was making as an FO. However I'm like you in a way. My BRK contract on the left is running out in 2.5 years. I'm making moves towards different companies and guessing by the time my contract runs out I'll have joined a legacy.

[go around flaps15]

Another thing to think about Zero is this. If you gain your command and do end up putting 1000 hours in a logbook and then decide to head for the hills and try your luck in the Middle East, thats all well and good.

Remember this. If you leave as an FO you wont rejoin FR as an FO. If you leave as a commander and decide after 6 months that you miss watching Corrie at a reasonable hour, you can come back as a commander. Getting commanders into left hand seats has been a constant thorn in the side of Ryanair and if they need you and you have not upset anyone there is very good chance that you could come back.

It just means its a bed to fall back on, instead of a bed of nails if it all goes :mad:s up.

[Craggenmore]

The question you need to ask yourself is, "Do I want to be a Captain or earn Captains money?"

The world is slowly moving east.

An example: Indigo has just ordered 180 Airbus...Do you think India have the man-power to fill these seats?

Biggest order: IndiGo airline picks up 180 jets - The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/biggest-order-indigo-airline-picks-up-180-jets/articleshow/7272391.cms)

For senior and experienced pilots, the once third world is now the first world for aviation. New planes, new money, new terminals, new infastructure and new attitudes.

Never disrespect experience, but commands are becoming far easier than they they once were. The days of 20 years to the LHS are well and truly over if you are prepared to travel.

[beachbumflyer]

zero

You might want to consider Cargolux

[DRM1973]

Zero, I am in the same dilemma as you, except I am on the old FR permanent FR contract. I have a family too. I just cannot accept the uncertainty of gambling my future on a 5-3 random Euro Base or worse on a salary which won't afford me to pay for living costs away whilst paying for everything at home. It's getting worse every year, I am earning 500 a month less in my basic from 3 years ago (mainly due to the Irish government) FR state they don't know what to do with their cash, well they definitely don't give it to their line staff. I have never known a company which treats it's own people with such distain. Anyway, I have decided not to accept what they are offering for these reasons and more and it certainly wouldn't hurt getting out of the Irish system. It's time to move on. Best of luck in whichever decision you make Zero and to all colleagues in this dilemma.
Remember, this is my situation, yours may be similar but being single with no ties can still make the prospect of 2 years command experience a consideration. I hope I didn't add to the confusion, just adding my 2 cents.
DRM.

[maverick777]

I agree...

It has become an absolute necessity they one must leave in order to support ones family (wife/girlfriend/kids) .... It need not be so rotten to the core for pay especially!!

Youre also right in saying that 1000 hrs or 2 yrs LHS in FR is not a bad idea if no wife/kids/another business interests.

The final element is having the fearlessness and courage to make that move to the Middle East where the "harvest is rich but the labourers are few" whether you have significant others or not.

[Mungo Man]

Thats pretty MISERABLE to support a family on
Its not that bad! You ought to try supporting family on a lot less!

So how much do FR Captains make? One post mentions block of E133 per hour - at 800hrs a year that's 106,000 a year, which is not bad whatever the lack of perks...

[PENKO]

Funny thing, the main argument against staying in Ryanair for a command seems to be that you get sent somewhere away from your current cozy base and family... But isn't that exactly what our man zero to hero wants? He wants to see the world, he has no family, so he won't be much worse off with a Ryanair command. Right?

The next argument against staying in Ryanair for a command is that he will get addicted to the money. What money may I ask? The euro contract with no lifestyle?

So, the two main arguments against staying in Ryanair to get a command don't really add up. Like many others have said, unless you can start now with KLM/AF/BA/LH/etc., get the command. I'll be gladly proven wrong but I see no other reasonable alternatives for a man in his position.

[Bokkenrijder]

See!

cheezyjetty (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/426763-fight-against-p2f-2.html#post5927641) ("Back in 2006 I joined EZY via an OAT scheme where I paid £20k for TR and base check, with PERMANENT employment contract at Direct Entry rate.") is one of those typical examples of people who know only the 'blessings' of low-cost airlines and then claim to have all the wisdom in the world by making statements like: "If you want to see the world, do it after 2000 hours PIC. You might end up in the right hand seat once in a while, but you'll be very employable."

What do YOU know about employability after paying 20k for a type rating?!?! The only thing you DO know is choosing for mediocre airlines with mediocre T&C's while paying for the "privilege."

Quite a few years ago, when I flew for that orange outfit I was told "oh Bokkie, with a 737 or A320 type, you'll never be out of a job again. Plenty of contract jobs out there!" Now look at how the market is flooded with desperate cadets paying for type ratings working for breadcrumbs leaving no opportunity anymore for experienced pilots with time on type. Even with >3000 hours on 737's and A320's I couldn't go back to my former employer even if I wanted to, simply because of low timers willing to work for peanuts.

I predict the same will happen with DEC's. IMHO, in a few years the market will be flooded with desperate captains, willing to just about do anything to leave the lousy low-cost outfit they work for, undercutting their colleagues who are in the same shoes and in the process making all this PIC experience in effect useless. It will be the next wave in dragging down T&C's to a newer and lower level in this industry. PIC time will only allow you to go from one lousy job to the other, (EZY --> RYR v.v.) perhaps only marginally improving one's life because of a better base. That's it!

Carpe diem folks: seize the day! Seize the opportunity to join a good outfit and leave this low-cost business behind, regardless whether you have 1000, 2000 or 10000 PIC hours in a shiny new 738 or A319!

[d105]

That's just a despicable attitude Bokkenrijder. Everybody has the right to follow their dreams. What are you saying. People shouldn't be allowed to become pilots because they drag down conditions for the previous generation of pilots?

Listen to yourself.

[Bokkenrijder]

d105, when and where did I say that people aren't allowed to follow their dreams? :confused:

I never said anything about "not being allowed to become a pilot" or "not being allowed to follow one's dream." However, people should realize what they are getting into and also try to make a long term plan, which is what this discussion is all about. Stick to the topic, or open a new thread about following dreams! If you can do neither, then stick to reading Cosmo! :p

Staying with a low-cost logging "valuable" PIC hours as a captain or jumping ship and the long term consequences of both options. That''s what I've given you my opinion about, not about this plain emotional "follow your dream" argument that you're now dragging into the discussion.

If you don't like my opinion you're free to disagree and back it up with you own experience and opinion of where this industry is headed in the long term. However if you have nothing constructive to add, well then please don't bother replying!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Don't take it personally Bokken, D105 thinks only people who work for Ryanair know anything about them and have the right to comment.

But that comment must be in line with his opinion or he'll get all shouty.

[varigflier]

Lets not forget that if one gets the precious PIC time and then goes fly as an F/O somewhere around the world, after a year do you think you can still get hired as a captain in the contract world? Most contract jobs if not all require that you are current in the aircraft and seat. So 6 months or more as an F/O might not get you back in the left seat.

[d105]

That was clearly what you are implying Bokkenrijder. Why else would you mention "desperate" cadets dragging down conditions for "experienced" pilots?

Hello Spandex, nice to see you've joined the discussion once again. We've had quite a few discussion on this before. All quite civilized. You know better.

[soullimbo]

I don't understand these type of statements either:

Now look at how the market is flooded with desperate cadets paying for type ratings working for breadcrumbs leaving no opportunity anymore for experienced pilots with time on type. Even with >3000 hours on 737's and A320's I couldn't go back to my former employer even if I wanted to, simply because of low timers willing to work for peanuts.

So what is it you want? This is called progress. This is where the world is heading to. There is no way back. You and I were one of these desperate people paying big money to fly. Accept the consequences.

Guys flying for main carriers are very lucky and this will last maybe another generation or two before that ends.

BTW, getting back to the question. As you have a young family, I am guessing in a few years time you'll be looking for stability and not being too long away from them. Now find a job that fits that lifestyle. IMHO that's more important than travel or money.

[Bokkenrijder]

Now look at how the market is flooded with desperate cadets paying for type ratings working for breadcrumbs leaving no opportunity anymore for experienced pilots with time on type. Even with >3000 hours on 737's and A320's I couldn't go back to my former employer even if I wanted to, simply because of low timers willing to work for peanuts. So what is it you want? This is called progress. This is where the world is heading to. There is no way back. You and I were one of these desperate people paying big money to fly. Accept the consequences.Limbo, I realize perfectly well that this is what the world is headed to, but you need to look one step further.

The profession of F/O has been virtually destroyed and turned into poor cadets being totally exploited in return for experience that gets them...in the LHS of the same operation with the same bosses out to destroy even more T&C's in order to enhance their bonuses. Why stop there? The next logical step, IMHO, is that the profession as captain will be destroyed by turning DEC's against each other just like most low-cost airlines have unfortunately been so successfully been doing with F/O's.

The question people need to ask themselves is whether they want to go down this low-cost route and go for the 4 stripes, or use that "bought and paid for" experience and move somewhere else.

Yes I agree that almost everybody in any low-cost airline (myself included) has some blame to carry for the deterioration of T&C's, but when I was in EZY I quickly realized that neither the company nor the union and colleagues were willing to make a stand against this rot. From a company perspective I can of course fully understand, but I could never quite figure out why my ex-colleagues nor BALPA ever made a stand. Even here on PPRuNe you have some pilots who feverishly seem to defend the companies and their P4T bending over backwards scams. :confused: So therefore I decided to use my "bought and paid for" experience and leave the low-cost industry and I advice as many people as possible to do the same. When you compare the deal I had (TRSS F/O with still a decent salary) to the deal that cadets now get (being a P4T contractor and basically beg for work so they can pay their bills) I guess that so far I've been proven right to leave. Mark my words: DEC's are next to be played out against each other when everybody is rushing for the exit.

[Bokkenrijder]

That was clearly what you are implying Bokkenrijder. Why else would you mention "desperate" cadets dragging down conditions for "experienced" pilots? d105, I think you misunderstand me. With "desperate" I mean that I genuinely feel sorry for people ending up in that situation.

I also am implying that "experience" as such, unfortunately won't get you very far as in any low-cost airline anymore, as the costs are the determining factor. Just like my F/O experience won't get me very far if I ever needed to apply with EZY or RYR again, I think that PIC experience won't get you very far in the next 5-10 years either. As a 737/A320 DEC, you'll be thirteen in a dozen.

Do you think that's a fair system?

[Craggenmore]

I predict the same will happen with DEC's. IMHO, in a few years the market will be flooded with desperate captains, willing to just about do anything to leave the lousy low-cost outfit they work for

I actually agree with this. Most of the easy Captains I used to fly with would happily leave if a suitable offer came along. Trouble is the offers aren't coming so they have to stay. But when they do..!

[Bokkenrijder]

Most of the easy Captains I used to fly with would happily leave if a suitable offer came along. Trouble is the offers aren't coming so they have to stay.Exactly!

But when they do..!But ask yourself what what DEC jobs are out there that are with really good companies. Emirates? Could be, although personally the ME is not my cup of tea. Cathay used to have DEC jobs for the freighter fleet, but very high requirements and a very tough selection. Singapore Airlines is occasionally looking for DEC's on their freighter fleet, but T&C's are not what it once was and I think there's no transition to the pax fleet. That's about it, and most of these airlines only have room for a handful of DEC's, not the hundreds of young low-cost captains out there who perhaps want a change of scenery after 5 years in the LHS doing 4 sector days.

For the rest it's just contract jobs, some good others not so good, where you live paycheck to paycheck. Perhaps a nice retirement job when divorced (Vietnam Airlines ;)) but hardly a long term career plan...

[Craggenmore]

But ask yourself what what DEC jobs are out there that are with really good companies

I did and so resigned whilst still an FO to avoid the golden handcuffs. Easier to move now rather than give up a command and get a cut in pay.

I see young guys making Captain at easy with over 30 years ahead of them whilst every management comm to the pilots was about the ultra importance of maintaining a low cost. Having stalled the pay deal for over six months already, the writing is on the wall. Ezy's future will be head-banging through BALPA, especially with EASA's FTL's being bulldozed through.

YouTube - Wake up! Tired pilots risk lives (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX9QSGSWbkE)

[lederhosen]

There is a lot of focus quite rightly on the negatives and the very real erosion of terms and conditions not just at Ryanair but throughout the industry. On the other hand Ryanair has pretty much doubled in size over the last few years creating vast numbers of flying jobs in the process.

An experienced FO or junior captain would appear to make pretty good money. After a couple of years as a captain say five years in if everything goes right I understand from other people's posts you can potentially make 130 euros times 900 hours minus some costs, so probably 100,000 euros plus. That is certainly not bad.

Compared to sponsorship at a legacy carrier the entry cost is high. But what percentage of people get a shot at that. I was talking to a friend last night whose grandson is applying to LH. He said they were told 6000 qualified candidates had applied for 240 openings which is probably better odds than for many years but still a lottery.

I do agree that there does not seem to be much to look forward to after making captain at Ryanair unless you use it as a springboard. Although I was amused by the poster boy on the Ryanair web sight saying that after 500 PIC he became a TRE.

[Bokkenrijder]

Here are some more examples of what life is becoming for DEC's;

Air China Cargo Schedule (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/431195-air-china-cargo-schedule.html)

Parc Aviation's crappy pay TNT's B 777 freighter dogs (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/440924-parc-aviations-crappy-pay-tnts-new-b-777-freighter-dogs.html)

One post really caught my attention and that was posted by Airbus a321: (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/440924-parc-aviations-crappy-pay-tnts-new-b-777-freighter-dogs.html#post6208462)W A S good.
Starting since the last few years all, well, almost all contracts they offerd were just poor. the same low pay, same low T and C the same crap like everywhere.
This TNT-contract is just another poor, bad example, that PARC no longer cares to get reasonable T and C for their pilots. Unfortunately.

PARC is no longer what it was before. everytime in the "good old times" PARC was the NAME was a GUARANTEE was a SYNONYM for a good and fair contract.
Today PARC is just :yuk: down to be like all the rishworths, all the brookfields etc. just VERY SAD.
Who in PARC management is to blame for this bad changes of their previous philosophy :{Anyone with more than two braincells can see where this is going... :(

[Bokkenrijder]

One more interesting post (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/440924-parc-aviations-crappy-pay-tnts-new-b-777-freighter-dogs-2.html#post6238827) on the 777 TNT thread:

latest news ...

PARC called me the other day to ask, why i haven't yet submitted all my needed docs and forms required for "the new exciting opportunity to fly the B 777 ex Belgium" ..

and - guess what - when i frankly told the recruiter, that i would appply ONLY, if the T&C's would be on par with "industry standard" - i got the answer, that their offer is "de facto" the new standard in the aviation industriy...

- that was to much for me i told him to bugger off - Naffff OFFFF !!

Never in my life i will sign such a poor contract with PARC, unless my family would be starving - and even then, i might consider to work as a busdriver in London instead - that would be about the same payment, but much better conditions - plus union !!

So - for now, i really do hope, the other rated skippers on the 777 tell PARC off as well - otherwise they won't learn their utterly needed lesson... :yuk:

plus - latest news - the new kids around the blocks - the Intaway buggers - are now recruiting as well 777 skippers for TNT - and apparently offering even LESS quid!!! :ugh: