The right path.. Stapleford? OAA?

[indi1988]

Hi,
I am currently in the process of searching for a valuable flight school. I've really been looking at Stapleford Flight Centre as a strong option as it's within close proximity to my house and it is reasonably priced too. Also, it's had some very decent ratings on forums.

Does anyone have any constructive advice to give about stapleford in terms of job prospects, value for money, quality of training, etc.

I've also been looking at Oxford, and am considering their integrated FO programme - but it is approximately 30k more than stapleford for the same qualification. I'm also working for BAE Systems on their graduate programme so I am a bit reluctant to leave.

Is it really worth spending the extra 30k on oxford??

Any advice would be very much appreciated. I'm really worried about spending all the money training and then not getting a job afterwards so really want to make the right choice.

[mad_jock]

Is it really worth spending the extra 30k on oxford??

Nope and its more than that if you take into account the fact you already have accom next to stapleford. You are basically saving a type rating by not going there.

Keep with your graduate prog as long as you can and keep the money coming in. Then pace yourself that when things pick up again you can ditch the job, complete the training and come onto the market current and ready to go.

[hollingworthp]

Is it really worth spending the extra 30k on oxford??

No.







.

[mad_jock]

Yes I did actually and I was also included in that years statistics for those who got a job from Oxford.

Never flew a plane with them mind just did distance theory course. And to be honest I prefer the OAA theory notes to Bristol Grounds Schools :p. and also think the distance learning course is reasonable value for money.

[Happy_Days]

Yes, it's worth it.
PM me if you wish.. not going to post my life story on here though.

[The Flying Chicken]

Getting into the mindset of accepting a TR before even completing training is destroying the industry. And no, it's not the only way in.
Integrated has had its time. High costs with employment success almost exactly the same as modular do not justify it. At least with modular you can keep the cost down and keep it fun, after all, that's what it's about, right?

[G CEXO]

Davidflies, alot what you have said is complete :mad:

I thought I would contribute to this post. Having also researched extensively flight schools in the UK, I worked out that Oxford would cost approximately £16,000 more than Stapleford (if one includes the type-rating).

Total costs: Stapleford Flight Centre: approx £70,000


Rubbish, I have kept a complete log of my costs from flight training, food and even down to small costs of stationary. My total costs up until MCC/JOC will be around £52,000 and this will include every expense I will encounter and all of my training will have been done at Stapleford.

Additionally, you have a strong career support service - AFTERCARE (this is critical).

Complete rubbish, I know lots of people who have gone through Oxford Aviation and majority of them are on their way to Ryanair. The integrated calibre rubbish is almost non existant since 2008 and I can tell you of at least 3 people who were left on their own jacks after graduating. And they had very good ground scool and flight training reports.

£85,000 which is about the right figure for training, accomodation and food during the course and another £25,000 for the type rating is what you'll be paying if you end up at Ryanair. And, at the moment that is where nearly all Graduates are finding jobs with the odd few going down the EasyFlex route which is so bad i'm not even gonna talk about it. You can search the forums and find out what a great deal it is :ugh:.

So let's compare, £77,000 at Stapleford and £110,000 at Oxford Aviation. That's a difference of £33,000 .

I find this so hard to explain all this through text so I apologise if this is coming across as confusing but I saw students at Stapleford preparing for a lesson with their instructor (who was impeccably dressed) in just baggy jeans and a t-shirt! I thought to myself "Where is the 'Commercial Pilot' mindset?!". What happened to standards of dress?!

I have yet to come across someone who has been asked at interview whether he/she wore a uniform at his/her flying school.

The atmosphere is purposly made that way at Stapleford and many other modular schools so Students are relaxed and at feel at ease during training. It has nothing to do with professionalism, CPL and IR pass rates show professsionalism and Stapleford have one of the best in the country.

[speedover60]

Some people are obsessed by uniform and stripes on the shoulders.... Why pay £33000 more to have the same license and apply for the same jobs?

"Getting into the mindset of accepting a TR before even completing training is destroying the industry"

I totally agree with The Flying Chicken... if some people doesn't give :mad: in paying £30K £40K more for their training why wouldn't the airlines make pilots pay for their own TR?

[Felix Saddler]

You could go buy a fine pilot's uniform from Saville Row, and you're own plane for the extra £33,000... :ugh:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

In a depressed market I continue to advocate modular training, conducted within commuting distance to home, at a small well established school, whilst keeping your current employment. Either that or get into CTC as they have managed to place all their cadets despite erratic demand.

If money is no object then sure, got to Jerez, join a course and bond as a team of great mates, enjoy the sunshine and have a blast and get a CPL/IR ATPL. Or do the same in Kiddlington with slightly more drizzle. It is easier because you have the support of being on a course of 8 other people all going through the same thing.

The stripes, aircraft paint jobs and promises of post-course career help should all be ignored.

Personally I think the best way into BA (often the ultimate aspiration hereabouts) is to train cheaply, have enough cash to pay for the Ryanair type rating, get into Ryanair, get six months B737NG in the logbook and then pass the BA selection. If you fail then Doha, Dubai or Abu Dhabi beckon six months later.

Its a better plan than hoping your excellent training reports and first time passes from a premier flight training academy of excellence will land you a job..


WWW

[The Flying Chicken]

I wish there was a "like" function such as on Face-book for WWW comments.
It's probably the cheapest, quickest and most reliable way to get into a carrier like that.

[indi1988]

Right,

Thanks all for the comments.

I drove over to Oxford on Friday and met with Mike Griffiths, Brand manager. He was very helpful indeed, seemed to be quite unbiased and weighed up the positives and negatives or Oxford. The only negative really seemed like the price. He said that if you can fork out £120k for an integrated course including a TR (£87k for course, £35k ish for TR), you are pretty much guaranteed to be placed with an airline. However, to me it didn't really make sense to me as a business model - spending £120k and then starting at £35-40k.

He also mentioned an interesting point that other people may have a different outlook on:
- Easyjet, BA and other major airlines will NOT take any modular students, this is a black and white rule with no discrepancy.


I also visited Bonus Aviation in Cranfield and on the whole, it seemed like quite a friendly school but their facilities seemed a bit 'outdated', just a few porter cabins with no glass cockpit aircraft, hence it seemed a bit pointless as it's quite far from home.

Stapleford is looking like the best option. I could get a CPL with M/E, IR and night for minimum £45k but I'm budgeting for £50k, and then around £20-25k for a type rating on 737, 320 etc. That's still saving around £35k from OAA, it seems like OAA is the best place to study when money is no object, but if you think of it as an investment and think about ROIs, does it make sense??

Hence, Stapleford at the moment seems like the best option??? Right?

I'm not too fussed about not wearing a uniform all the time, in fact I prefer being casual and feeling more comfortable when LEARNING how to fly; I've got all my life to be wearing a suit and gold stripes.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Helpful, friendly and unbiased. OK. Have you ever bought a used car?

The only negative seemed like the price. OK. What about the airspace restrictions, the NDB or the student/airframe ratio? Pretty much guaranteed to be placed with an airlines? Did he say those words or are you paraphrasing?

easyJet mostly take CTC students with a smattering of OAA recently. RYR don't give a toss. The others aren't hiring ab initios.

Bonus is where I did my CPL and my FI rating. Cheap, grotty portacabins and tired looking aircraft. Cheap first time passes. Pay your money, take your choices.

Good for you for looking around at least. Its more than some do.


WWW

[Whirlygig]

Brand manager ..... quite unbiased AN oxymoron, like Fun Run or Military Intelligence. :E

Cheers

Whirls

[indi1988]

Yes I have bought a used car, and many of them.

Oxford is clearly a sensitive subject. Yes, he did say that and no I'm not paraphrasing -
" If you can afford to pay for a type rating after qualifying, I dare say we would PRETTY MUCH guarantee that we will be able to place you with an airline".

Bonus seemed very similar to Stapleford, but it seems pointless to move out when there is a SLIGHTLY better option closer to home

Thanks for all your advice, WWW.

[peter.124]

'He also mentioned an interesting point that other people may have a different outlook on:
- Easyjet, BA and other major airlines will NOT take any modular students, this is a black and white rule with no discrepancy.'

I personally know several modular OAA graduates who in the last 6 months started flying with easyJet on Parc contracts.
Having graduated from OAA they did a self sponsored A320 TR without any help or intervention from OAA and then by registering with Parc they got invited to an assessment day down at Burgess Hill with easyJet where they completed and interview, written technical test and finally a sim assessment in one of the CAE A320 sims.
At no point were easyJet staff interested in their modular or integrated background only that they had a TR and how well they did on the day.
I believe that OAA run an APP First Officer Plus program which is a way in to a possible assessment by easyJet and an add on to their APP First Officer integrated course. OAA will only put forward their integrated students for this course even if they have oustanding modular students available. This is more to do with OAA pushing integrated training than the likes of easyJet demanding it, it in my opinion, and of course integrated training is far more profitable for them.
I also know of many ex OAA modular students on contract with Ryanair and some have even said that Ryanair seem to prefer modular grads.
As has been mentioned many times, if you want to fly with BA, go to easyJet or Ryanair, get some hours and a good record and apply to BA who at this point don't care about your modular background.

[pug]

indi1988, were you also advised to stay away from Pprune by any chance?

I know someone who went through OAA a few of years ago. Managed to get on assessment at BA, but failed this stage. Not sure if any of the OAA ab-initios actually got through. Said person now at FR after forking out for TR, last i knew was hoping to re-apply at BA when the opportunity arises. Some course mates still unemployed now or back in previous careers.

It seems that the main openings for 250 hour guys is FR at a cost. As far as i know they dont discriminate between modular and intergrated?? Once you've got the relevant experience does it even matter how or where you trained?

[flyvirgin]

£70000…. You must be crazy my training at stapleford came nowhere near to that amount,
The bar will stay open as late as you want it to, providing there are people in the bar buying drinks
Correct, your in the middle of nowhere, BUT you do have a student car, approx. 5 minutes away is a tescos, shops, pubs, ETC.
Also students have cars at stapleford, you there are daily trips to Epping.
I agree that students wear anything to lessons, When I started my CPL/ME/IR I was always dressed in black trousers and a white shirt, and so was most of the other students of whom I trained with.
I really enjoyed my time at Stapleford, The staff are amazing, well run courses, if you have a problem of any kind Lisa will sort it. (theres no doubt about that) .
MONEY WELL SPENT

[indi1988]

£70k was the cost I had in mind if I had to fund my own type rating as well.
But I was forecasting around £50k for a FATPL.
How did you find the school? If you don't mind me asking, have you had any luck getting placed with an airline or did you have many problems looking for placements?

[flyvirgin]

I really enjoyed my time there, I finished in October and just been called up for a ryanair interview :ok:

[RB311]

What does it say about the industry these days that if you have 120grand to spend in your pocket youre just about guaranteed a job in an airline.....

Back to the days of buying a commission in the army me thinks.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Indi1988,

He also mentioned an interesting point that other people may have a different outlook on:
- Easyjet, BA and other major airlines will NOT take any modular students, this is a black and white rule with no discrepancy.

I am sorry mate, but that is NONSENSE!!!! I know a few guys recently employed by BA and Easy who were modular students. Please get your facts right!

[The Flying Chicken]

Talking about their first job, I imagine? Lots of modular students go on to be very successful with the large carriers, but just very unlikely that'll happen as your first show. Most modular students will start off with small carriers or as instructors, which is also where I'm seeing a lot of integrated students go to as well, get some experience and some hands on skills before working up the ladder.

[indi1988]

Thanks all for your replies and help.

I'm leaning very close to Stapleford at this stage. Will be visiting the two schools in Bournmouth this week, but I'm struggling to envisage how they would differ from SFC and how I would be able to justify moving away.

Just looking to get all the finances sorted and be on my way to a PPL whilst working and then leave BAE for the ATPL course, although I will struggle to get unpaid leave. But we will see.

:)

[mad_jock]

There really isn't any debate if you already live near by stapelford.

Its got a pretty good reputation and you don't have to move. Persoanlly I would save your petrol driving down south and back.

[Happy_Days]

The modular guys I know who have recently join easy were in another airline first for a few months.

[downwind24]

Quote..........

"I also visited Bonus Aviation in Cranfield and on the whole, it seemed like quite a friendly school but their facilities seemed a bit 'outdated', just a few porter cabins with no glass cockpit aircraft, hence it seemed a bit pointless as it's quite far from home. "

Thats exactly why i chose them , no glass , no autopilot , 6 levers to really max you out while flying the aircraft , hands on , steam dials etc has increased my mental capacity to deal with all this at the same time as an EFATO/GA.

Important questions i asked : Student/instructor ratio , aircraft downtime , pass rate on IR/CPL , couldnt particularly give a stuff if they had new buildings and posh coffee making facilities (we know who ultimately pay's for this dont we?!)

Indy , im sure your a nice guy but i fear from your posts you are looking for a school that fits your image instead of your training requirements.

[downwind24]

strange , when i add EFATO it adds "(engine failure after take-off)" automatically , but doesnt show this text in the preview ??

[indi1988]

Thank you for your approval Downwind that I am a nice guy. This has reassured my confidence.

Pass rate at SFC for CPL and IR is 95%. I'm not to sure about the student/instructor ratio but judging from previous posts, it's not too much bother getting an instructor for the time you need.

Aircraft down time should be minimal as they have their own maintenance facilities as do Bonus.

I really couldn't give a monkeys about the environment, otherwise I would have been going to Oxford, for the image - I care about a decent standard of training and job prospects afterwards. I'm not at all implying that bonus has a band standard of training, I'm sure they're the same as SFC but when I spoke to the GM, she couldn't show me any records of students they have placed with airlines in the past few years, where as SFC had siginificant traceability on their students.

I'm sure Bonus has it's good standards as you state, but it seems purposeless moving up to Cranfield if I'm not gaining any thing I couldn't get from SFC.

The positive points I see in SFC is that they have their own dedicated airfield, close to london so it should be quite a busy airspace as well (not comparing with bonus) and it's close to home - and they seem better organised than bonus do.

Sorry for the rant!

[biaeghh]

I think you will find that is a first series pass rate, not first time pass rate. That means that it took the student two attempts to pass, not one. Check the fto's website for confirmation.

[downwind24]

I don't see a reason for a rant ? , if you feel the need to rant don't ask for advice on a public forum if you are going to take exception to people's comments/advice.

Personally , i would get a ppl and gain more experience of what you want that way. It seem's from your post though you have your mind set on where you are going so as the previous post says save your fuel money and stick to Stapleford if its what you want and on the doorstep.

Just as an aside , i note the excellent pass rates of Stapleford you mention but i know of 1 partial and 1 fail in the last 2 weeks , fail by Capt A and partial by Capt B........

[Mikehotel152]

WWW - Your posts used to wind me up in the old days (pre-2009) but now your thoughts mirror mine. Are you softening or am I just getting old and tired? :)

flyvirgin - That sounds like SFC. The set up was fairly relaxed but the training was to a high standard. The Instructors don't give you an inch and they're people with whom you'd happily drink a pint at the end of the day. Can anyone honestly say they would feel proud of wearing stripes while training? Crumbs, it's bad enough wearing only two when you walk through Stansted...

RB311 - There's no comparison. Buying a commission in the Army led to people with no military training or talent for leadership stepping into positions for which they had no aptitude. Paying for your own training in no way avoids the need for you to 'make the grade'. You have to possess the requisite skill and aptitude or you won't be employable.

downwind24 - Agree with you about the dials. In retrospect I see no advantage in doing the IR on the DA42. In fact, in my opinon it's a disadvantage because the instruments are some kind of wierd halfway house between steam and EFIS. It didn't prepare me for the B738, which has surprisingly intuitive EFIS instruments, nor would it have made flying an older turbo prop or BAE146 an easier. Quite the reverse. As for pass rates, that is the key and definitely what our friend should look at.

indi1988 - Mate, you're doing all the right things; asking all the right questions on here. I went to SFC so I think you're on to a winner with it. When I was in your position I went to a couple of other places to have a look but quickly ruled them out due to location. SFC was the only good modular commercial place which was within commuting distance. It suited my personal family circumstances, my budget, and the teaching style matched my learning style. In areas where it matters, such as pass rates, SFC was as good as any. :ok:

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

The positive points I see in SFC is that they have their own dedicated airfield, close to london so it should be quite a busy airspace as well (not comparing with bonus) and it's close to home - and they seem better organised than bonus do.

Indi1988, I wouldn't concern yourself too much about the location of the school. If anything the location of Bonus, being at Cranfield would be an advantage due to the fact the airfield can get very busy, and it has the CAA test centre on site, so being based at Cranfield, would help you get used to the whole operation from day 1. Neither airfield lies inside controlled airspace, the London TMA from both airfields lies vertically displaced from both ATZ's.

I did my CPL and IR from an airfield without a test centre, and with no instrument approaches on site, and the only real disadvantage was we had to fly to other airfields to fly the instrument approaches, but this didn't really cause a problem.

I have been to SFC a couple of times, and to me it seemed to be a good outfit. A few of my friends went there and had no complaints and are now enjoying airline careers. If you live just down the road and money is tight it seems like a no brainer.

Also guys, 9 times out of 10, in terms of your airline careers, it really makes no difference where you did you training. As long as you pop out the other end, with your shiny blue licence, IR and ATPL credits, that is all the airlines will be interested in, in terms of your credentials. Once you get you foot in the door with an interview, it will be you and your personality that gets you the job. Getting that foot in the door is the tricky bit!

Enjoy the course, whatever you decide.

[downwind24]

Off topic and i do apologise but Davidflies the words 'rant' were used by Indy initially not me , read correctly before you reply with what im afraid is quite a pathetic and childish post. I fear you may be a little sensitive as in one of your other post's Whirlygig managed to offend you also ??!!

Indy , i named the captains concerned however the post would appear to have been 'edited' , its not an attack on Stapleford , i dont know great deals about them , however if i know of that many in 2 weeks maybe you should ask for concrete figure's to back up what you have been told? It was a pointer simply for you to ask for more info.

Further more good luck in whichever school you decide is right for you , you are certainly wise to do your homework!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

14 years of doing this and Wannabes still don't grasp that a CPL/IR is like a driving licence. Its a test you take for a couple of hours, with an examiner who is ticking boxes on a test sheet, which results in a license being printed and issued.

Whether you trained at the BSM/AA school of motoring amazingness in a brand new Mini, or, whether Dodgy Dave in his knackered 05 plate Corsa instructed you on your parallel park REALLY DOESN'T MATTER.

You've still only got a couple of hundred hours, you know nothing, you're crap.

You've got a license to learn.



There are "times" when airlines need so many unplanned unexpected pilots that they pick up the phone to the large schools and order two dozen for interview please. Those times are rare and last occurred in 2006. They are highly unlikely to be seen until the other end of this economic cycle.

They only call the large Integrated school because it is bloody difficult to phone 24 smaller flying schools, get the CFI on the phone and get him to give you the contact details of the best student he's seen in the last 6 months. Large FTO's has a nice lady who can do this with 30 minutes notice. Its that blunt. When push comes to shove major airlines have just called up type rating providers like GE and asked for the names and mobile number of anyone who went through there in the last 3 months, then called them, then hired most of them.

No question of where they trained, what their A-Levels were or could they work in a team trying to build a model of Big Ben out of pencils. A license, a type rating, a pulse and willing to be here on Tuesday..

What matters at the moment is staying in a slow game. Which generally means lowest debt serviceable for the longest time whilst applying for three years to airlines. Unless you can get into CTC or pay the RYR £30k type rating and take a chance they'll keep you busy.


What doesn't matter is the 'quality' of your driving test lessons and whether you could do a good hill start. No one really cares.


WWW

[redsnail]

WWW as usual, says it how it is.

One thing I did note reading all of this is the phrase "placed".
If you do one of these unbelievably expensive courses, you're not "placed" in an airline. The reality is you may get an opportunity to that particular airlines' recruitment process - which you may or may not pass.

Caveat emptor

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Whether you trained at the BSM/AA school of motoring amazingness in a brand new Mini, or, whether Dodgy Dave in his knackered 05 plate Corsa instructed you on your parallel park REALLY DOESN'T MATTER.

WWW, I am sorry I have to disagree with this comment. Didn't you mean to say dodgy Dave with his knackered 'R Reg' CORTINA, or am I just showing my age? ;).

[felixflyer]

WWW, When you say no-one cares where you did your training would you include the big Spanish and Czech schools that are offering very good deals?

I keep seeing posts suggesting the airlines wouldn't be happy taking on people that trained abroad but then others suggest they dont care.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

It might raise a few eyebrows because of fraudulent hours claims. I also think you will struggle like hell with language barriers.

WWW

[felixflyer]

Thanks,

Would you care to expand on the point about fraudulant hours? I haven't heard about that.

These schools are tempting for someone like myself that is short of time due to work etc. and cannot do a 6-10 week full time course in the UK but I do not want to put a black mark on my CV by going somewhere that has a bad reputation.

Regards

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its just difficult to check your logbook if the Flying Instructor entries are all Senor Hernandez Espilido or Vlimiditz Kyachencko. How does a small airline recruiter call the school and speak to the CFI to check your training history? On which register is your alleged training aircraft listed? Its probably not a big issue BUT, there's always a but, if I had 57 CV's on my desk for the 2 positions coming up I might very well filter out any of them that had anything 'difficult' or 'unusual' about them.

Besides, I've tried to train French and Spanish students at CPL/IR level and despite their otherwise excellent English it was always a barrier to effective communication. Flying training is 80% effective communication and 20% practice.

Do a PPL first. See how you get on. Far too many people go from nothing or 1 hour in a logbook straight to signing up for a full CPL/IR course. You might be crap. You might hate it. It might be totally different to what you thought it was.

I'm sure there's an excellent school who can do you a good quality PPL course over the next 12 months at weekends and holidays..


WWW

[felixflyer]

Sorry, I should have said. I have my PPL and hours and just finished my ATPL's. Im looking for somewhere to do the IR and finding it difficult to fit around work.

Thanks for the input.