Air NZ Approach Briefing

[alpapilot]

Have I missed something or have ALPA put something out about this?

Surely the company aren't serious about us doing important training like this from home.:confused::(

[Yeti Breath]

Please explain.

[alpapilot]

Hi Yeti Breath,

Are you Air NZ? If not it doesn't matter. The company have asked us to do considerable and vital (thier words) training at home over the net.

I'm just wondering what ALPA thinks.

alpapilot

[c100driver]

Have you tried asking them?

You are an ALPApilot are you not?

[alpapilot]

I haven't but I believe theres some disagreement in the Council over this. Various council members are wanting action but the leadership are doing and saying nothing!

[kiwilad]

So if there is debate in the council, they probably are working on something. Why ask the question on prune before asking the council?

What is your real agenda?

[remoak]

More to the point, why do you think the great majority of the rest of us, who are not Air NZ pilots, care in the least about an internal Air NZ squabble?

Take it to your company council or the union directly. :ugh::ugh::rolleyes:

[c100driver]

If there is debate in council then there must be a possibility that the company is correct? Or at least there is some doubt about the contract wording perhaps?

Either way as kiwilad correctly asked -

What is your real agenda?

[c100driver]

Well said remoak!!

Who gives a toss on PPRUNE about the petty cr*p that occurs within the Air NZ council.

[purplemonkydishwashr]

Geez! Put your handbags away ladies. This is a forum for pilots. Air NZ pilots are...pilots! If you're not interested in the topic, don't read it. Simple.

[40Deg STH]

Most major airlines do it this way. Cathay certainly do. Its very easy and a useful tool.:ok:
I much prefer to do it at home with a coffee/beer than in the company offices.:ok: Or I tend to do it in the hotel when on company time and am trying to avoid the bar and other crew lol

[Shot Nancy]

Most major airlines do it this way. Cathay certainly do.

That does not make it right. CX AOA exercised quid pro quo in the matter.
At least give people the option or it may become the thin edge of the wedge.

[Artisan]

What type of training are they proposing to do over the internet?

Air NZ already have in house Computer Based Training. What is the difference if this is done at home or at the workplace?

[40Deg STH]

Shot,

The less time I spend in CX City, the better. Whats the wifi like at the Oaks? A perfect day for the beer garden I think.:ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

What is the difference if this is done at home or at the workplace?
Eh? I'm not working at home on company business. Or they can roster me (at home) for it. General studying at home too keep myself current is one thing; doing a specific training course in my own time at home is another.

[#1AHRS]

What? Do you need to be spoon fed too? Do it on yer standby days. We've got 90 guys here that recently studied and qualified on Engadin Airport St. Moritz Airlines: News (http://www.engadin-airport.ch) along with company documentation. That was done during their standby time and not one of them felt the need to run to ALPA either ...
Sheesh

[RedUnderTheBed]

Useless comments from industrial weaklings not required!

Last time I looked "Day Off" meant "FREE OF ALL DUTY". Alpapilot has a point. This is an erosion of our conditions in Air NZ. There have been plenty of union sanctioned ones in the last 10 years. Those of you who recommend 'going to ALPA' obviously have had your heads in the sand - all you get from officers and staff is B- S- and platitudes.

I suspect his 'agenda', if he has one other than wondering what the f*** is going on, is to get ALPA off its backside and tell the company to get stuffed and roster the specific training instead of using a contractual facility meant for airport briefings, etc.

Non Air NZ - butt out!:mad:

[Bongo Bus Driver]

I care what happens within the Air NZ council because what occurs there effects all NZALPA councils. If the Air NZ Council allows training to be done out of duty then it will open up everyone with in the Air NZ Group to completing training outside of duty and most of us do not even get an IT allowance.

So thank you Alpapilot for bringing this to the attention of those who do give a crap. For those who do not may I suggest you use the "Go back one page button" on your browser and find a thread you do care about.

Now that they are gone lets look at what I think Alpapilot is getting at.

I believe NZALPA is allowing too many of these little erosions to occur. The more you see then being brushed over and not acted on the more you start to think what does that 1% of your salary going to the union actually give you.

[Shot Nancy]

Ok, cat, pigeons -go!

Non Air NZ - butt out!

...may I suggest you use the "Go back one page button" on your browser and find a thread you do care about.

The NZ pilots I fly with are regular guys. The comments above seem to be from pilots who cannot get a job with the big boys.
Don't you guys have a private site to discuss these matters?

[kiwilad]

I suspect his 'agenda', if he has one other than wondering what the f*** is going on, is to get ALPA off its backside and tell the company to get stuffed and roster the specific training instead of using a contractual facility meant for airport briefings, etc.

Not sure of the contract but if you can do airport briefings already what is the major difference between the two?

Alpapilot has put this in a public forum before asking the council for an explanation, so why would that be done this way? Mis-information, scare tactics??

RedUnder.... how many of your industrial minded fellow pilots would park up for this? It always seems to be the solution you offer. Are you sure you really have the support?

I guess if you feel that strongly alpa, bongo and redunder must all be members of the council, if you are then this would cause me more concern that council members are publicly undermining themselves and their council. But from what I hear AirNZ pilots only get involved for their own causes!!!!:D Downtraining and Hotel cases anyone!!

[Helmut Smokar]

The solution is to do it paid, time at home getting paid, even better as previously stated do it while on duty and get paid twice for the same time :E
Hopefully your internal IT department make accessing the course so hard from home you get paid and don't have to do it until next year :ugh:

As for doing out of the goodness of your heart......:hmm: don't think so.

[alpapilot]

Thanks for the supportive comments from Bongo and Red, even if the latter's were a little robust.

Why non-Air NZ pilots would want to contribute to this thread I have no idea. If we had a private thread it would be there.

Down here in Kiwi-Land we like to spend our days off with our wives & kids & friends - not drinking beer or coffee staring at a computer screen for hours on end. As for the flyers with 'The Big Boys" (OooohhhhHHH):ugh:, the Kiwis you fly with either couldn't get a job with Air NZ or left for greener pastures when they realised how slow promotion is, wages low and management trying it on. No different from Fragrant Harbour or the sand-pit except they are better paid.

My agenda? Get some discussion going. Here in Northern Branch we've had one meeting called in I don't know how many years to discuss matters like this. There's a lot of talk on the line, even the ANZPS pilots are p--d off. I'm also trying to get ALPA to do something before it's too late. This is an assault on our conditions and unless we nip this in the bud there's more to come. ALPA doesn't seem to appreciate that. Air NZ pilots be warned!

For the record, I am not a member of the Air NZ Council.

[RedUnderTheBed]

Do the words "Concessionary Slide" mean any thing to you?

We stopped one of those a quarter of a century or more ago. We've been experiencing another for the last 10 or so years, or haven't you noticed?

I always liked what a former admin head used to say when he was in the chair. "Going on strike isn't compulsory - looking like you're willing to is!"

Some of us have forgotten that but I certainly haven't. What he meant, I think, was you always have to have the company afraid of what you may do. It appears that they no longer are. It is now getting too late for the ALPA to do anything effective. Bend over boys - here comes the pineapple!

:rolleyes: Peeled or unpeeled sir?:rolleyes:

[#1AHRS]

Why non-Air NZ pilots would want to contribute to this thread I have no idea.

Umm, perhaps they are not Air NZ but, in case you hadn't noticed, there are those outside ANZ that are also ALPA and they are interested in what you (alpapilot) are using ALPA resources for. Just as well there isn't a private ANZ forum.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

I reckon its better to use ALPA funds to maintain employment conditions than on overseas fact finding missions.

On the subject of those outside ANZ would you be referring to members who buy their way into low cost carriers offering poor terms and conditions then ask ALPA to expend resources getting those conditions improved.

Mutual support goes both ways.

[remoak]

Why non-Air NZ pilots would want to contribute to this thread I have no idea.

You put it on a public forum and you're fair game, pal.

Why would non-Air NZ folk want to contribute? Possibly because, to some non-Air NZ pilots, the sight of the poor, deprived, oh-so-precious prima donnas whining about having to do a little study at home seems somewhat trivial as they climb into their clapped-out old piston twins and fly through the ice and turbulence, hoping like hell that an engine doesn't cough at an inopportune moment.

But then, it's always been that way. And ALPA has always been essentially an Air NZ mutual adoration society.

I guess I'm just lucky, the airlines I have worked for always paid us to study at home. Different culture entirely... ;)

[Bongo Bus Driver]

And the reason why those non ANZ folk are flying clapped out twins on poor conditions is because they did not, and do not now, stand together behind guys like Alpapilot and Red and ask questions whenever management attempt to erode terms and conditions regardless of how minor they are.

[remoak]

And that is biggest load of bollocks I have ever heard.

One of the reasons why some non-Air NZ folks have the problems they do with crappy GA operators, is that Air NZ pilots and NZALPA are not the slightest bit interested in helping them when they face issues.

GA pilots standing in solidarity with Air NZ pilots would have precisely no effect whatsoever on whatever Air NZ try and pull on their pilots. Why should they bother anyway, it would never be reciprocated.

NZALPA is an Air NZ union, plain and simple. Pretty toothless one, too.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Oh Remoak you really do hate ANZ don't you?

Currently NZALPA has a GA co-ordinator appointed specifically to support GA,
The CFT ( Contingency Fund Trust) offers sponsorships to B Cats in GA to get their A Cat instructors ratings and both CTC and Canterbury Aviation College have ALPA negotiated employment agreements.

The fees gathered by GA members hardly cover the costs of all this but the membership, including those at Air NZ, are happy to offer mutual support to their GA compardres.

Unfortunately you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. In order for GA pilots to get help they must join up, band together and ask questions in order to get answers.

Interesting you discribe ALPA as toothless. Here we have a member trying to show some teeth and you slag him off?

Why do you think the airlines you have worked for have paid for you to study at home? Could it be the someone like Alpapilot stood up and said "Hey we should be paid to study home shouldn't we?"

Speaking of Alpapilot ( and getting back on topic). Have you found it difficult to talk to your council about this matter? I find with my council that emails are not returned and when I speak directly to some of them they are very vague. What has your experience been?

[remoak]

No I don't hate Air NZ at all. They are pretty good for a relatively small airline, good standards and training, and the product from the pax point of view is truly excellent. My favourite long-haul commuting airline (and I have the Gold Elite card to prove it...:ok:)

The only downside is the lingering union culture evident amongst some of the flight deck, but hey that's to be expected.

Currently NZALPA has a GA co-ordinator appointed specifically to support GA

And they have only managed to negotiate agreements at two training establishments?

The fees gathered by GA members hardly cover the costs of all this but the membership, including those at Air NZ, are happy to offer mutual support to their GA compardres.

First of all, no they're not, and secondly, any union worthy of the name would take no notice of where the majority of the funds come from when it came to deciding how it was spent. NZALPA could learn a lot from BALPA in this regard.

Unfortunately you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. In order for GA pilots to get help they must join up, band together and ask questions in order to get answers.

When GA pilots see any point at all in joining, they will. I have been back in the GA scene for a year or so and have not seen, nor heard mention, of any NZALPA reps or presence. Probably because I'm not in Auckland.

Interesting you discribe ALPA as toothless. Here we have a member trying to show some teeth and you slag him off?

"Getting some discussion going" is showing teeth...??? Lord have mercy...

Why do you think the airlines you have worked for have paid for you to study at home? Could it be the someone like Alpapilot stood up and said "Hey we should be paid to study home shouldn't we?"

No... the airline wasn't unionised. Hardly anyone was a union member. We had an informal company/management interface, which I served on, but never had to ask for these things - they were freely offered as a recognition of the work that we put in above and beyond the call of duty. They helped us, so we helped them. Everyone profited.

[apache]

"Getting some discussion going" is showing teeth...??? Lord have mercy...

well it has to start somewhere! we can't just go straight to the courts, can we!


and if you WANT to bitch about what money gets spent where.... let's look at what %age comes form where!!!!!

I would hazard a guess that about 80%+ comes solely from Air NZ pilots. I stand to be corrected.

don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the same percentage should be spent on the same demographic that paid for it..... but, the battles that NEED to be fought, should be fought, regardless of who paid for it, WHEN the members ask for them to be fought!!!!!

people keep re-iterating that a union is only as strong as its members... and this is true!!! but the union also NEEDS to be pointed in the direction that the members want it to go.

If something is being asked of the members, OUTSIDE of the contract, then this need to be stopped... and ASAP! if You give an inch, they WILL take a mile... and then the precedent is set.

[alpapilot]

I've just heard the A320 fleet have put out a differences course for the A320D for internet training at home.

What's going on?

[RedUnderTheBed]

What's going on?

We're being screwed! That's what!

I've heard that even the Feds have been directed not to complete the approach briefing modules until they hear back.

ALPA's done nothing. Apparently it's going to be discussed at council on 25th Jan (tomorrow) which is way too late. The company are gaining a foot hold on our days off due to ALPA's inaction. If it's true the A320 fleet have had another briefing dumped on them (A320 drivers can confirm that) then we're not on a 'concessionary slide' but a 'concessionary free-fall'.

BTW: I fully endorse Alpapilot bringing this up in the only forum open to NZALPA members. If we all go to ALPA on this then we are not aware of each other's concerns, comments and views. For those of you who are in ALPA and don't like this 'airing of our dirty laundry' then lobby PPRUNE for a private forum. For those who aren't interested - tough. Like BBD said; click the back button.

Bring back regular meetings and then we'll get to hear what the old guard have to say and get some sense.

[747-419]

BTW: I fully endorse Alpapilot bringing this up in the only forum open to NZALPA members.

How about a site for Air NZ pilots?.

The FANZP pilots have been directed not to do the briefing till discussions take place between their industrial managment and ANZ. This seems a reasonable way to go.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Remoak
During this thread you accuse AirNZ and ALPA of not caring about GA. When given examples of how ALPA has tried to assist in this area you mock their efforts. However I note with interest that you have been back in the GA scene now for over a year. A person of your experience, which you have spoken of extensively of in various threads in this forum, you must have an insight on what GA pilots can do to better their working environment without union input?

I would be interested to know what leadership you have shown to those in GA, that you now associate with, to better their terms and conditions? Surely you have interfaced with management on this issue?

Or are you one of these people that just sits back and bags those who at least try to make a difference.

And for the record CTC are based in Hamilton and Canterbury Aviation in Christchurch. So, no you do not need to be in Auckland. I also understand there is work underway on a CEA with Massey Aviation, in Palmerston, but that is just rumour.

[belowMDA]

To be fair though surely if you have a requal day at some point then surely that is the time to do it. You are getting paid to do that sort of thing on that day.

[goodspeed]

B MDA, thats what I thought too, the requal day is actually there for exactly this sort of thing. (Its a gigantic pain in the ass though).

I guess the other option is to be rostered 2 hours on an unassigned day to complete the thing.

Happy to be corrected if i'm wrong.... but I dont really see a slide of anything.

I was also sceptical of the benefit of an ALPA junket to the states. With the benefit of hind sight, ie the deals brokered over the last few weeks with the virgin group, its possibly very important work that the 3 big cheeses accomplished in the states late last year.

I guess time and the upcoming ALPA elections will tell.....

Any of you rowdy lot standing?

[remoak]

Bongo

you must have an insight on what GA pilots can do to better their working environment without union input?

The problem with most GA pilots is that they are scared sh*tless of annoying the boss and losing their job, or getting a bad rep, so they pretty much do as they are told. They know that they have no power, and belonging to a union won't change that as the union has no way of enforcing their will (as long as the employer is obeying the rules). They also know that ten guys want their job, the employer knows this too, so what you have is a classic lose-lose.

So what can they do? Stand up to their bosses and make sure they don't compromise their standards. It's called being professional... and move on as soon as possible. Don't need a union for that.

Why do you think standards in GA have barely changed in 20 years?

I would be interested to know what leadership you have shown to those in GA, that you now associate with, to better their terms and conditions? Surely you have interfaced with management on this issue?

The answer is "quite a lot", but the PROBLEM is that if it costs money, the owner isn't interested. Have made some progress though. Union nowhere to be found.

What the industry actually needs is an advocacy group with some teeth, that is interested in doing something about the most dangerous group in NZ aviation - the small to medium GA operators. The flight schools you mention are all professionally managed and highly unlikely to involve their staff in risk. Operations like CTC are very well run and professional. They won't even let their aircraft into the air if there is a CB within 50 miles... which is more than you can say for most GA operators.

The operations that most need NZALPA intervention are also the ones that NZALPA shows no interest in.

Once again, NZALPA could learn an awful lot from BALPA.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Well Remoak I stand corrected.

Your "quite a lot" absolutely out trumps everything ALPA has to offer. To all the GA ALPA members give up your 24/7 access to critical incident response support. Give up your access to legal representation when your boss decides to sack you for refusing to fly when it is not legal. Forgo the savings achieved through group life insurance, loss of licence insurance and all the rest of the benefits available.

Hey all you B Cats who want to do your A Cat upgrades, Remoak's "quite alot" support network will sponsor you how much?????

Talking about instructors. You guys and gals at the big schools don't need ALPA negotiated contracts because they will never put you at risk. They may not pay you anything but thats ok because being safe is the only thing that you career instructors need to pay the bills.

And hows about these words from the gospel of Remoak. GA operators aren't interested cos it costs too much. Straight to revelations chapter one!

Yep save your membership fees people because Remoak's advocacy group will be saving the day for you all. And on his panel of experts will be GA operators, their blind mates at CAA and Remoak's management interfacers.

Good luck.

[remoak]

Oh give it a rest, Bongo.

Your "quite a lot" absolutely out trumps everything ALPA has to offer. To all the GA ALPA members give up your 24/7 access to critical incident response support. Give up your access to legal representation when your boss decides to sack you for refusing to fly when it is not legal. Forgo the savings achieved through group life insurance, loss of licence insurance and all the rest of the benefits available.

Hmmm... yes that's a valuable package all right. So valuable that I assume all GA drivers with half a brain would sign up immediately. But wait... they don't. Now I wonder why that might be...

Possibly because most of what NZALPA offer can be found elsewhere at similar prices, or is of questionable value anyway.

And you just know that if you have a problem with your employer, NZALPA are highly unlikely to help you very much. They know the percentages in such cases. But by all means, list for us any recent successes NZALPA have had in the GA world...

Mind you, I could possibly use the "24/7 access to critical incident response support". That sounds cool. So when I prang my kite, I have a sleepy NZALPA rep on the phone blowing sunshine up my ass? Yep, that would be very helpful, I'm sure.

I would have a lot more time for NZALPA if they were to occasionally walk through our door and chat to the troops... find out what's going on... sign a few folk up. Chance would be a fine thing.

Like I said... NZALPA could learn a whole lot from BALPA...

Oh and by the way, just so you don't think I'm anti-union, I belonged to the afore-mentioned BALPA for 25 years. And very helpful they were too. They learned that, although British Airways constituted 80% of their membership, they still needed to actively seek out and support the employees of "lesser" airlines. So they went on a recruitment drive that dramatically increased their membership, with a corresponding dramatic increase in their war chest, which led to a dramatic increase in successful actions against poor employers.

Yes, NZALPA could learn a whole lot.

I'm not against unions. I'm just against crap unions that only look after their money base.

[Hunter S Thompson]

Getting back to the original topic for a moment, many airlines around the world including mine roster pilots for airport briefings etc from home (ie a paid work day). I have done briefings under both systems and much prefer the briefings from home so long as it is a rostered duty. Generally I do my briefings on an overnight and enjoy an extra day off at home :). Or maybe you prefer the extra driving (in AKL traffic) and hanging around work, each to their own.

Re NZALPA, I agree that they need to take better care of their non ANZ pilot members. For example discussion of the Jet Connect/QF situation, a major issue which should also concern ANZ members with any foresight, being left until after many trivial ANZ items at a recent ALPA meeting. ALPAs real agenda with regard to this issue seems unclear. Are they really acting in members best interests?

I agree with Remoak completely, NZALPA is a crap union that needs to stop spending its time gazing into ANZ navals and actually act in all its members best interests.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Welcome Hunter. Hows Colorado?

Re working from home and doing things on layovers etc. I am all for it. As long as it is rostered and the employer does not start to take liberties.

As for Jetconnect. I know of one of their pilots who was very outspoken on ALPA and how crappy they were when he flew the link routes. He got into Jetconnect and joined ALPA because the terms and conditions were so much better. Actually come to think of it there may have been two.

One thing I would suggest to those in Jet Connect complaining about how crap ALPA is. LEAVE!!! Form your own union. Join the Feds. Hey you can all join Remoaks "Quite alot" management interfacers I hear they're making progress.

OR........CHANGE ALPA

The union is only as good as it's members. Stop whinging in flight decks about ALPA not doing anything. Attend your meetings and start asking questions such as WHATS GOING ON?

Hang on.......isn't that what Alpapilot did at the start of this thread?

[remoak]

Hey you can all join Remoaks "Quite alot" management interfacers I hear they're making progress.

Well I wouldn't have to if the Air NZ mutual appreciation society showed any interest at all in GA. As NZALPA do absolutely nothing to help my little corner of GA, what little I can do (and others in GA pilot management) is all there is. And please don't start whining on about sponsoring A cats, how many people are we talking about here? Hardly any compared to those at the sharp end in GA. Instructing isn't the only activity out there, you know. It is, in fact, the least risky part of GA. What are you doing for the guys banging around in ancient piston twins, doing hard IFR at night, covered in ice with marginal equipment?

Nothing.

The union is only as good as it's members]

Do please grow up. The union is only as good as it's MANAGEMENT. Which explains a lot, when you think about it. It has always been this way, just think back to the Ansett NZ debacle.

Another little object lesson for you. Back in the day, BALPA took their eye off the ball, just as NZALPA have. The result was a new union, the IPA (Independent Pilots Association). The IPA managed to suck up a bunch of BALPA members, weakening BALPA in the process. The IPA had a far more enlightened approach than the BA-centred BALPA, and is now a powerful force for non-BA pilots.

With any luck at all, something similar could happen here. If only wishing made it so!

[Bongo Bus Driver]

IPA sounds exactly what GA needs then Remoak. Don't wish it, do it. Off you go form one. See what it takes to get the GA pilots off their butts and into action.

In 2005 ALPA had 160 GA members on their books. That equaled the members at Air Nsn. Alpa then employed 2 liason officers for the North and South Islands respectively. They then called for GA members to volunteer and form a specific GA council that would address GA issues. I had just been accepted into a regional so I was unable to put my hand up. However none of the pilots in my company or the one next door, all doing the hard yards and complaining about it, took the opportunity to get involved.

I cannot tell you what happened to that council but I can guess. It either never got of the ground because no GA members were interested or the instructors from the big companies were interested and ran with it which is why they are represented as they are today.

The members do run ALPA. The top positions are occupied by members who are voted in. If members outside of ANZ feel they are not represented fairly they are welcome to combine forces and get one of their own in a top position. If I were in JC I would contact the PB council and the Jetstar members and vote a Non ANZ member into the Industrial Coordinators or even the Presidents position. That way they can have direct influence on how ALPA is managed and where resources are allocated.

I admit this would be hard for those in GA as they do not have the numbers to stack the vote. But they do have the numbers to form a council that reports to the Board of Management and partition them for support.

What would I do for the GA pilots flying around at night covered in ice? Firstly I would tell them to refuse to fly a non deicing equiped aircraft into know icing conditions unless route MSA is lower than the freezing level or other escape options exist. I would then get them to record what their boss says to them when they refuse. Either on tape or have a witness. If their boss bullies them or threatens them I would get free Union legal representation and take a pg against them.

By the way I have refused to fly for this exact reason and my boss said sweet no worries. It just takes guts and that comes from the knowledge that support is close at hand.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

This hot of the emial from ALPA


For all you non believers this straight of the email......

Inquiry Into Civil Flying Training Safety

Dear member

Just prior to Christmas I requested feedback on the survey being conducted by The Transport Accident Commission (TAIC) on matters relating to civil flying training safety in New Zealand. As mentioned NZALPA will make a submission to TAIC by the deadline of 21st Feb 2011.

As this survey has come as a result of the significant increase in mid air collisions and near misses in the GA sector I consider the NZALPA submission on this subject of great importance so would like to urge any members who have not responded thus far to contribute from your first hand knowledge and experience. So far we have a good number of submissions under the following subject headings. Your contributions and experience are what make NZALPA the professional organization that it is today, so consider your role and contribute as it will make a difference.

Issues:

· Increased traffic:

o relying on "See and Avoid Principle" at smaller uncontrolled airports;

o congestion at uncontrolled airports;

o overloading inexperienced pilot's situational awareness.

· Aviation English proficiency pilots/students:

o unable to clearly transmit their position and intention to other pilots;

o mispronunciation of local Maori place names thereby causing uncertainty or inaccuracy of their position and intention to other pilots;

o not understanding other aircraft transmissions of position and intent thereby not gaining situational awareness.

· Pilots who have been mainly taught to fly in a radar environment becoming confused as to their position and appropriate tracking procedures when in a non-radar environment with no controller to ask.

· Student pilots transmitting inaccurate positions when no instructor is on board.

· Pilots not taking in or misunderstanding other aircraft transmissions resulting in a lack of situational awareness.

· Poor standard of radio skills in the GA sector - both student and PPL pilots.

· Lower time/experience instructors that are less supervised and therefore lacking the initial and consolidated skills to impart key learning points to students.

· Training of new pilots often in the hands of some of the industry's most inexperienced with only basic training or teaching skills.

· Funded organisations committing students to the churn of full time ground schools for the purpose of processing more students ie: concentrating on passing PPL/CPL exams rather than providing an integrated learning and flying experience to develop sustainable and educationally sound aviation skills.

Safety suggestions put forward for consideration:

· Mandate transponders for all aircraft including sport, recreational and gliders.

· Mandate traffic avoidance systems (TAS) for all commercial aircraft (below 12500kg) and portable non TSO'ed awareness systems for all powered aircraft.

· Re-establish ATC and or ATS surveillance coverage at the busier and/or mixed traffic airports - virtual towers could be considered for the more remote locations.

· Update pilot licensing to ICAO Annex 1 and address the syllabi for pilots exams.

· Ensure that the ICAO Proficiency in English Language standards is achieving the required standards and is done complied with prior to flight. Optimal use of training devices to achieve a sustainable standard.

Please send feedback to [email protected] by early February 2011.

Thanks and regards
Stu Julian
Technical Director
NZALPA:D:D:D

[alpapilot]

Hi Remoak. If you've got a problem with the way NZALPA deal with GA then start your own thread - don't hi-jack mine. When you do I'll gladly join that debate but I do like BBD's responses.

Hunter S. & the rest. Thanks for your input but I'm even less interested in how other airlines train their pilots than you are in how mine does. It doesn't add to the debate and it certainly doesn't give me a guilt complex about complaining. We come from entirely different methodologies and there is no simple solution, even though you think there is.

ALPA have at last come out and said it has to be properly rostered and WE are to contact our fleet management to arrange it. What? Why don't ALPA call their mate Rob and tell 'im to tell 'em to get on with it. No mention of the A320 training so I've no idea what it's status is. Would anybody on the A320 fleet care to enlighten us?

[trev]

It would be a pity if the facts got in the way of a good thread.

NZALPA Air NZ CEC
Section 11.6 Web Based Training

11.6.1
CBT modules not associated with a type rating course, as and when required, may be completed during RQ days rostered to follow periods of not less than 14 days leave, (refer 16.1.3.3) or at a time of the pilots own choosing.

11.6.2
Completion of such training will be by the way of self paced learning packages. Training may be completed on Company premises or at another time and location as desired by the pilot.

11.6.3
The company will maintain a record of each pilot's training qualifications. The company shall give each pilot at least 28 days notice of any new qualification required and the expiry of any existing qualification requiring renewal.

11.6.4
The pilot may elect to use his own computer equipment to complete the training.

11.6.5
Briefing packages will be divided into training modules, and each module will be designed to enable completion in approximately 30 minutes.

11.6.6
A pilot may be required to complete a maximum of 8 training modules in a single RQ day.


Looks pretty simple to me:
1. Either you get an RQ day or you get 28 days notice.
2. Must not be type rating training.
3. Should be approx 30 mins per module. That may vary depending on the intellect of the pilot and his ability to operate a computer.

Just get on with it and you might even learn something.

[RedUnderTheBed]

Strikes me Trev that the Air NZ Council disagrees with you as they're saying it's not in compliance - at last - and that's good enough for me. Thanks also for pointing out that for a lot of the A320 drivers the notice of requirement to do a differences course is inadequate. We should get Alpapilot to get onto that case too.

For those of you not in the know 'RQ' days are rostered at the end of 2 weeks annual leave or more. The idea is compensation for doing airport briefings at home. Trev would have a point if we were all rostered two weeks annual leave over the period from mid-December to 10 Feb. As ANZ are still flying that obviously hasn't happened. BTW an RQ day can and is taken off you if you request days off at the end of your leave so you may not even get one.

We would like to learn something but in this instance in the Company's time not our own. Next we'll be doing sims and sliding down escape slides in our own time too - do you want that?

In my experience any monkey can parrot the contract but understanding it takes brains. Go get some!

[RedUnderTheBed]

& all you PPruners out there.

Click on Trev's name and see his previous posts. Especially the one that was written by a colleague (he didn't log off at work by the looks of it - I was right about brains, he probably goes in and 'helps out' on his days off) and the one expounding about VBAs. Really knows his stuff - I don't think.:ugh::ugh:

[trev]

It is the considered view of the NZALPA Air New Zealand Pilot's Council that the CBT-style "self study" package currently provided to pilots - the subject of which is significant change to the most critical phase of flight - is deficient in both the quality of the presentation and the provision of adequate instruction.

The Council feels this training is of such import as to fall outside the scope the "Web Based Training" provisions of our CEA.

The NZALPA Air New Zealand Pilot's Council strongly opposes the this current "self study" methodology for the provision of significant, safety related training such as the current "PBN Approach" CBT package, and requires that all NZALPA Air New Zealand pilots be properly facilitated to conduct this training. Facilitation is to be taken to mean the provision of a rostered training period at a facility suitable for the completion of such instruction (including any examination), and under the supervision of an appropriately qualified instructor on the topic.

Could all pilots please request a properly facilitated training period for this training from their fleet managers regardless of whether pilots have already completed the CBT package.

So sticking to the facts:
I don’t see any mention of an RQ day in the update from ALPA, do you?

So when is “web based training” not “web based training”? When the Air NZ Council decides that it is not?

[RedUnderTheBed]

You're quoting the contract trev, you look it up - you might learn something!

[alpapilot]

Hot off the presses. Dunn has put out a memo saying that we now have until the end of March to complete the briefing. If we want rostering then they'll roster a couple of hours on the end of the next training duty you do.

The ALPA directive is specific in requiring a proper brief. It's their move.