98% jobs say flying school

[FlyingPhilA]

Please help me understand something. I have gone to several open days for flight schools including the heathrow flyer exhibition, and one thing doesn't make sense to me. For example I asked ctc wings what there recruitment rate was and they said 99%. Oxford said also a number in the high 80%. so how can this be possible if it's really hard to *get a job? Also I know these figures are true as someone just finished ctc training and 98% of all his class got a job and the 2% who didn't just didn't try hard enough in training. So what's with the NO job attitude?*

[OZvandriver]

Schools will say all sorts of things...

There are plenty of jobs out there if you're willing to fork out tens of thousands of dollars/pounds/euros after you've already spent a fortune on your training.

[Sciolistes]

CTC specifically selects cadets for its airline clients. I suspect CTC's figure is based on how many guys Wings Cadets who complete training get recruited. Their definition of completing training and your's probably are not the same, CTC will probably consider training complete after the TR or even upon completion of line training (maybe depending on the contract)!

Another question for CTC is what percentage of Wings Cadets who are selected get recruited at the end. The reason is that CTC will cut those who are under-performing.

Oxford selection is not as demanding. They will train you, assess you and the most suitable (attitude+ability) get put forward. The remainder are on the open market and won't get cut from the course. 80% for Oxford sounds pretty high? Do they consider becoming an instructors and banner towers in that figure, or are they talking about guys who got multi-crew jobs?

[sharpclassic]

Who said that working in a bar or being a taxi driver isn't a full time proper job? Of course they should be allowed to quote these people in their employment figures!

[max_continuous]

Oxford's recruitment statistics include 4 graduates who have gone to Cathay Pacific which has the square root of :mad: all to do with their having gone to Oxford and everything to do with the fact they completed the Cathay Cadet Selection and have commenced another 61 week training course before becoming Second Officers. At least they are getting paid to train though, so maybe it counts as a job.

That should probably tell you all you need to know. Oh, and it also includes anyone who trained on any course at Oxford including MCC and ATPL theory and arguably learned to fly elsewhere.

If you can go through training at OAA with your BS radar set at a level whereby any passing birds would instantly be considered a viable cooked dinner then it's a good place to go.

[Luke SkyToddler]

They're not getting "jobs" ... from my understanding of the current employment climate and just following the vibe here on pprune, I'd suggest over half of these so called successful graduates are spending money on speculative type ratings / line training programmes which actually lead to no "job" at all. And that the school marketing people are counting anyone who's completed an IR and subsequently gets to spend even 10 seconds in a RHS, even if they're doing P2F, as having a "job" for their statistical purposes.

I mean come on use your intelligence, who the hell is hiring at the moment? NOBODY. There are plenty of highly experienced and qualified pilots out of work right now. Sit down and spend a few minutes counting all the airlines in Europe who are actually hiring 200 hour pilots and what kind of numbers of people you imagine they might require. A most basic look at the numbers of school graduates vs the number of genuine "jobs" would lead to figures more like 80 or 90% unemployed as opposed to the other way round.

[clunk1001]

I think they include "any passing birds" in their recruitment figures too!

[max_continuous]

To give them some credit they haven't included me.

My employers do have a couple of aircraft which I have occasionally had the dubious privilege of manhandling around the skies but as I am not employed as a pilot and unable to log the flying I do they have left me off the list.

Had they for some reason included me I would have known instantly it was me and asked them to remove the listing. Honest.

[Torque Tonight]

Beware of those giving you good news if they stand to gain Euro75000 from you acting on that good news!

I believe that the very well known flying school I used may have used me in their employment stats - something that I wasn't entirely comfortable with. The job I achieved was entirely a result of my own jobhunting effort and pre-existing CV. In fact as a modular stude I was specifically NOT catered for by the careers service and therefore I don't think they should really be claiming credit for my subsequent employment.

(I should add that a certain gentleman did very kindly try to help on a personal basis, for which I am very grateful, but this was his assistance as an individual and not the organization.)

[Mr Grimsdale]

Did someone mention passing birds?:E

[captainsuperstorm]

marketing crap.

would you go to a school which claim 2% or 98%? what look better on their brochure or in their mouth?

[PERJ]

Look guys, flying schools will say ANYTHING and I mean anything to get you signed up. They will manipulate any figures and lie/mislead you to get your money. Thats the simple fact.
Most of them are in need of students, so these days it worsens.

[OutsideCAS]

I think it fair to say 98% of commercial pilots and their relevant employers would call the schools figures rubbish.

Have been made aware in the past of a certain Oxfordshire based training establishment using invalid employment statistics, if you feel you are on this list, ask them for actual names relevant to the figures claimed and if you feel a name is incorrectly associated with this list, insist on removal and then re-check to make sure the figures quoted by them are correct.

[zondaracer]

To the OP, how big is an integrated class at CTC? If 98% got a job from your friend's class, then were there 50 students and only one didn't get a job?

If a class is Only 25 students and one didn't get a job, then the percentage drops to 96.

[turbine100]

I finished training back in March 2009, no full time paying flying position like many others and still looking. Although I am lucky in that I am doing some public transport light A/C and working full time in my prior profession.

Dont believe the training schools and remember to look into borrowing costs if you have to borrow. Just do you research at the end of the day and do whats best for your personal situation.

[max_continuous]

This is from memory and fag-packet mathematics but based on my course (OAA and completed during 2010) I calculate the following percentages:

Know to be carrying out an activity, any activity, for which they are renumerated in some fashion: 54%

Flying activity for which they are renumerated in some fashion: 42%

Flying for airlines which do not directly employ them: 30% of the course BUT of all people flying 73%

Know to have paid for their own TR: 82% of all people flying

Flying and known to have an "employment", in the traditional sense, contract: 7% course, 18% people flying.

98% my :mad:

Can't imagine this would make me popular with OAA....

(edit spelling)

[peter.124]

Oxford's own website shows their claimed employment statistics for the last few years as follows:-
2006 : 170
2007 : 249
2008 : 199
2009 : 112
2010 : 158
giving a total of 888 graduates gaining employment over the last 5 years.
Since OAA churn out around 300 integrated grads per year and another 50 modular grads per year, that would make a total of around 1,750 grads over 5 years without including students who only completed ground school or MCC/JOC at OAA. I really don't know if the ground school/MCC/JOC students are included in any statistics although they may well be used to boost the figures in lean years. Anyhow just looking at 888 grads getting jobs out of 1,750 grads over 5 years equates to a 50% success rate and not the high 80s% referred to above!
In addition these figures on the OAA website show that last year of the 158 who gained employment, 77 went to Ryanair and 56 went to easyJet where they are actually self employed on a contract basis, normally a 6 month or 1 year contract, and each has had to pay circa 30k pounds/euros for their type training.
I think this shows that the employment hype is just simply hype designed to get prospective students to part with their money when they realistically have at best a 50% chance of getting a flying job.

[Kerling-Approsh KG]

From the number of CVs from vanilla frozen ATPL holders reaching our recruitment inbox, and the desperation of some of their pleas, there will need to be some huge recruitment before the pool of unemployed pilots starts to dry up.

Sadly, few actually seem to be doing much to further themselves, other than pushing CVs out randomly. Also, often, their presentation (on paper) is somewhere between poor and awful...

Perhaps this is a mark of the calibre of entrants to the profession now? Perhaps, nevertheless, there are high calibre candidates who are being let down by 'the system', or have been gullible.

Either way, the claim noted by the OP seems extraordinary...

Might I ask..?

Did those of you who went to the big schools (I'm interested in the UK only) find that you were given high quality advice about recruitment processes and interview techniques, etc?

[OutsideCAS]

Am wondering if maybe there is legal action possible against the Oxfordshire based training establishment with reference to false advertising (incorrect employment statistics) - this happened with an Irish based training establishment recently - any thoughts anyone ?

[yippy ki yay]

have you really got nothing better to do with your life? I have a feeling they haven't updated that 98% figure for a good couple of years, although that being said, on my course, out of those who finished 6 months ago 100% are either flying, doing their TR, or starting within 2 months with an airline. I also think the 2010 figure of employment is actually higher - again do not think it's been updated for a while.

PETER.124: how does the fact that 77 went to ryan and 56 to ej prove that the school is hyping employment?

[Jobhunter]

I went to Comair Aviation Academy. They said 98% got job offers in their advertising. If they had 100 students who finished all their training, and they needed only 10 of them as flight instructors, they hired only ten, the others had to got away to other flight schools. When they had 700 hours they fired 5 and let five start their qualification cours, if all got hired 100% of their students gots jobs, even if 95 never got the chance. Thats American marketing.

[bananaman2]

from what I here of CTC, I think a 98% success record is not unreasonable for them - if you understand what their statistics mean (which is what people have been discussing at length in this thread).

CTC have almost exclusivity with Easyjet recruitment (apart from a small proportion recently from a well known P2F merchant) and have been known to get candidates recruited where others have failed - even in recent times I have heard of pilots attaining employment with the likes of Tiger, Aer Lingus etc.

My interpretation is that their statistics mean... that if you sucessfully complete the course with the required credentials and are prepared to wait forever, there is a 98% chance of attaining employment for you. I have heard they are/were taking pilots on their 'ATP' - Post CPL/IR programme and have clearly stated they are in no position to offer employment at the moment because they have a hold-pool full of cadets they are trying to place (there is a thread somewhere on it). Also I have heard of cadets being in the 'pool' for well-over a year and even have secured a temporary contract and being put back in the pool and lastly that some people also gain employment off their own back - nothing to do with CTC's assistance and yet are included within this 98%.

So in short, (as others have said)be careful of what you interpret as 98%.

[jpointer123]

With schemes such as Easyjet and Ryanair SSTRs, are many people offered permanent contracts after line training? or are they always replaced with the 'next lamb in the slaughter queue'?