Air Southwest Exits Gatwick

[VOM1T]

Air Southwest scraps all flights between Plymouth and London

AIR Southwest is to scrap all flights between Plymouth and London, as well as Newquay and London, from the start of next month.

The company, which was sold by Plymouth's Sutton Harbour Holdings to Eastern Airways at the end of last year, has today announced changes to its operational schedule and will cease flying from Newquay and Plymouth airports to London Gatwick from February 1.

All passengers booked to fly from Newquay will be contacted and offered an alternative Flybe flight free of charge. Passengers booked from Plymouth will be contacted and refunded.

The rest of the Air Southwest schedule is unaffected. The airline will continue to operate regular scheduled services from Newquay to Leeds Bradford, Manchester, Cardiff, Bristol, Dublin, Cork, Newcastle and Glasgow; and from Plymouth to Leeds Bradford, Manchester, Bristol, Jersey, Guernsey, Dublin, Cork and Glasgow.

A spokesman said: "Air Southwest has also confirmed that it is having exploratory discussions with Flybe on potential areas for future positive cooperation going forward."

FROM PLYMOUTH HERALD.

Makes commercial sense but a hard decision to make I guess ?

[GROUNDHOG]

It had to come sadly for ASW there was never room for both carriers.

[davidjohnson6]

A someone with a rather small brain, I'm slightly puzzled as to the great importance of the air route from Plymouth to Gatwick.
Playing devil's advocate, apart from competition to keep FGW from getting too slack, could someone explain why there needs to be air service to predominantly O&D Gatwick (as opposed to a connection hub like Heathrow) instead of just the hourly train to Paddington taking a little over 3 hours ?

Who are the core customer groups, and how bad would the train be by comparison ? I'm not saying the route should close - just want to see someone make a well argued case as to why it's needed.

Note - I know that everyone has in the past had a trip with a heavily delayed train, but planes can be heavily delayed as well - I'd like to keep the discussion general rather than hearing about what happened to you one day 10 years ago.

[WHBM]

There is a proven case that for INBOUND business pax from Europe and the US, being able to make the trip throughout by plane, in timetables published worldwide had a signficant positive impact on the ability to develop business contacts with those other places.

By no means everybody wishes to start or finish their trip in Central London (not that Paddington, being in W2, easily passes many tests for being in "Central" London - there was a challenge through the Advertising Standards Agency a while ago about Heathrow Express saying it was), and the proportion of business travellers who do wish to start there falls as the years go by, so somewhere near the M25 attracts a different passenger group. Which is true of many domestic flights - they are actually not directly competitive with rail, but attract different passenger groups.

Yes the train is more frequent and serves many more points in the South-West, although the way that train fares have gone, being double or triple if you don't tie your trip to a single departure booked in advance, much of that frequency advantage is lost.

You are correct that Gatwick doesn't have the impact that the Heathrow schedules in years gone past had. Which is probably why ASW can't make a go of it long term. I would have thought that an Air France route from CDG to Plymouth/Newquay would do well for intercontinental connections and some O&D on top.

[tommyc2005]

The press article suggests the end of all services to London. I had a hunch flights may be switched at some stage to Stansted or Luton but that appears not to be the case now (unless there is a cynical 'response to popular demand' switch up the sleeve to be announced in the next month or two).

WHBM is right about central London not being that important - for those in Herts/Beds/Essex/East Anglia etc and patches of north and east London Plymouth and Cornwall are a very long drive away, the train requires an additional journey into London with underground connections and getting to LGW isn't attractive. There is certainly a market from STN/LTN to be tapped.

[WOWBOY]

I would take Luton or Stansted over nothing. It is important for plymouth as a city becuase the motorway stops at Exeter and the trains take almost 5 hours to get into london, the railway down here is awful. really saddened by this news.

[virginblue]

Surprised that nobody is mentioning this part:

Air Southwest has also confirmed that it is having exploratory discussions with Flybe on potential areas for future positive cooperation going forward

Whatever this means...

[NorthSouth]

wowboy:the trains take almost 5 hours to get into londonTimetable says 3 - 3.5 hrs. I think you must be adding the time zone difference ;)
NS

[clareview]

Clearly the figures just do not add up to operate a profitable route to LGW and no business can operate at a loss indefinitely. Some seem to be suggesting LHR would be a better bet but did one of ASW's predecessors (Brymon?) operate to LHR but had to give up and move to LGW to try to make it profitable?

Unfortunately not every remote region can justify an air link - thats life

[Skipness One Echo]

The route is a LHR one historically and had a fair amount of transfer traffic. When Brymon were bought by BA, they nicked ["moved" surely - Ed] the slots for something with more seats and shuffled the British Regional DHC-8s off to Gatwick.

This ended up losing money and was eventually dropped. Fearful of losing the London link, (this predates Rynair's STN-NQY), Air Southwest were formed to pick up the reigns with some ex Brymon metal and there was no break in service. Air Southwest then expanded into LCY, which lost money, then latterly found the NQY leg of the LGW routes under assault from the airline that gobbled up the remains of Britsh Regional / BA CitiExpree / BA Connect, Jim French's resurgent flybe. Unable to sustain continuing losses, fares were hiked back up and we arrive at where we are today.

I have no doubt PLH/NQY would work at LHR, as would JER, INV and a few others. That would require a thought out transport policy instead of just chucking more A380s into LHR though.

[virginblue]

While this is true, for all concerned other than those living in the southwest - the airlines, BAA, the government etc. - a A380 landing at LHR is more attractive from a commercial point of view than a Q300 touching down from PLH. Sad, but true. There can never be so many businessmen on the Q300 who would refuse to travel to Plymouth on anything other than on a plane that the economic power an A380 will generate can be offset.

[WHBM]

Shame isn't in it. If the government had made the third runway contingent on allowing some slots for up to four a day flights to Teesside, Inverness, Plymouth, Leeds, and all the other UK places that have lost air service to London over recent years, all the MPs would have been right behind it.

Likewise if BAA had been a bit more politically savvy about things aeronautic rather than retail, they would have presented this not as a "third runway" but as a "realignment of 23".

[Random Flyer]

London is not the centre of the universe and losing an air link to Gatwick is not the end of the world. As others have stated, train times to the capital from the South West are between 3 and 4 hours and the Gatwick service offered little to no connectivity.

The priority should be gaining another hub feeding service, which offers proper connections on the one booking etc. KLM to Amsterdam would be the most obvious possibility IMO.

Also, Aer Lingus regional to Exeter? I don't think its been mentioned before but I don't see any reason why not. Aer Lingus regional serve, or have served far smaller cities in the UK recently.

[WOWBOY]

A london route to exeter wouldnt work, competition with rail means it cannot be profitable, Flybe have already done studies into an Exeter-London route.

Here is what Plymouth City Council has had to say, some interesting tibits;

The Chamber is now calling for an independent study into the future of air travel from Plymouth to cover areas such as the feasibility of a runway extension and using new technology to shorten the distance needed to take off and land at the airport – which has a short runway that cannot be used by many types of aircraft.

and

A spokesman for Plymouth City Council said the news was "disappointing" and that it would be discussing the implications of this decision with the airline.

[pug]

Plymouth is to lose its air link to Gatwick after Air Southwest announced closure of the loss-making route.
Air Southwest’s flights, which operate from Plymouth via Newquay, will cease on February 1. The decision follows the takeover of Air Southwest by Humberside-based Eastern Airways in September, which has vowed to return its subsidiary to profitability

Read more; Gatwick-Plymouth air route to close | ABTN (http://www.abtn.co.uk/news/1015195-gatwick-plymouth-air-route-close)

I think those points highlighted say it all. Neither Sutton Holdings nor Eastern Airways are charities.

[Non Emmett]

According to the Western Morning News only one third of the passengers to Gatwick from Newquay and Plymouth joined at PLY. If that's the case, surely with a decent service in terms of flights per day, Air Southwest were poorly supported by the Plymouth business community? As a Cornish council charge payer I am concerned at the adverse effect it will have on the economics associated with running Newquay where the Council is already strapped for cash and likely to remain so for the forseeable future.

[LGS6753]

I think Plymouth and Newquay are different in a number of ways:

Plymouth is a small airport with limited runway length. It only has one operator, which was started by the company that owns the airport. It is a large city that has reasonable road and rail communications with the rest of the country.

Newquay is a larger airfield with a longer runway. It has a number of operators, albeit limited number of movements. It serves a remote area with scattered population, further from London, with no rail link.

Their relative proximity allowed a London service to be shared. Changes in fee levels at Gatwick no doubt played a part in the demise of the London link. I for one don't expect to see another operator at Plymouth until the economy improves, and perhaps not even then.

FlyBe has a decent hub at EXT which is only 40 miles from Plymouth, and Newquay will no doubt pull in some operators targeting holidaymakers. But with a sparse population with low propensity to travel, the far southwest will have difficulty attracting services from other carriers.

[Phileas Fogg]

Historically PLH/LGW/PLH was a Twotter route, whilst PLH/NQY/LHR/PLH/NQY was a (shared) DHC7 route, probanly 40% of LHR pax originating in PLH, 60% in NQY.

At one time Air UK operated a Bandit EXT/LGW/EXT, Brymon's PLH Twotter was circa 50% load facors, Air UK dropped the EXT route, Brymon picked it up, sharing it with the PLH route, and still they couldn't fill Y20 Twotters!

LGW does not have the international connections that LHR has, I posted a while back, as no LHR slots available, they need a South West to CDG or AMS route to offer pax international connections from/to the South West.

[Devonair]

Flybe do have a service from EXT to CDG which is AF codeshare. Hopefully this will be increased now the AIR SW route to LGW will cease. EY also offer codeshare flights to EXT via MAN.

[Morris542]

Having gone into the terminal a number of times for a coffee before flying at the club, it has become increasingly apparent that the number of passengers appears to be very low - even with a flight due to depart within an hour. Speaking to some people who have lived in the south west all their lives, they were not even aware that Plymouth had an airport (could be ignorance, however it has happened a couple of times).

It must be very difficult for a small, local airline in an area with a relatively small population to make it's mark. Plymouth is too far from London to run an effective local commuter flight every morning and afternoon, and for the holiday makers, why not just get on a train to Exeter or Bristol and fly from there? Also, the members of the armed forces staying there will have forces railcards (students will have student railcards) making the railways more tempting to more people. Put simply, the demand is just no longer there.

[EGTE]

Shortly after Brymon replaced the DHC6 with the DHC7 on the PLY/EXT/LGW route I overheard a conversation between two Brymon flightcrew in the Exeter terminal cafe. They were puzzling over why passenger numbers had increased on the route since the introduction of the DHC7. After all, they could not fill a DHC6 but now the DHC7 loads exceeded the capacity of the Otter. Perhaps the Twin Otter and Bandit were the wrong aircraft for the route? Evidently the pax numbers from Exeter were insufficient to maintain the service though.

[Phileas Fogg]

Morris,

If only pax could get on a train to somewhere like BRS airport! Let it not be missed that Lulsgate airport is on a hill in the countryside and a pain in the butt to travel to, long distance, via public transport.

As for EXT, can one simply get on a train in Plymouth city centre and alight that same train at EXT airport?

[Phileas Fogg]

Morris,

If only pax could get on a train to somewhere like BRS airport! Let it not be missed that Lulsgate airport is on a hill in the countryside and a pain in the butt to travel to, long distance, via public transport.

As for EXT, can one simply get on a train in Plymouth city centre and alight that same train at EXT airport?

[dazdaz1]

Was frequent flyer Gatwick/Plymouth. Sad news.
D1

[Phileas Fogg]

EGTE,

If you've ever flown on a DHC7 in turbulent conditions! I did it one morning, low level, between PLH and NQY, it was comparable to being inside a tumble dryer, I can't imagine anyone raving about wanting to travel on a DHC7!

Perhaps FlyBE (AF) could pick-up on a NQY-EXT-CDG service for international connecting passengers from the South West, alas I don't believe FlyBE have any equipment capable of operating in/out of PLH.

I'm aware that Jim French knows his stuff, I worked with him at Air UK.

[virginblue]

What I find interesting is that ASW not too long ago thought that the passenger figures would make LCY work on top of LGW - and that they now think that they cannot make a singe LON route work, particularly a LCY service when giving up LGW. I mean they had some passengers on LCY, and some of those who used to travel on the LGW flights might rather take a LCY flight than a train from Plymouth or BE from NQY. After all, the product would be different than Flybe's LGW flights from NQY so that ASW would not just compete on price. Of course most of the connecting pax would not be interested in a LCY service (although there are some short-haul connections). The performance of both routes must have been really dismal


As for EXT, can one simply get on a train in Plymouth city centre and alight that same train at EXT airport?

No. And when I needed to take the bus from the railway station in central Exeter, I was less than impressed that during certain times of the day busses run like every two hours only.

[bravoromeosierra]

Do BE hotel their crew at NQY in the evenings?

[big d1]

Yep, crew work and stay down in NQY usually for 3 days at a time.

Phileas Fogg

The Q400 can get into and out of PLH but only really on dry non icing days. As soon as the runway is wet, or it's icing conditions the performance especially for landing takes a massive hit and you wouldn't be able to land, or if you could you wouldn't be able to have your passengers in the back (not really ideal :)). PLH would need to add about another 500m to get around 1600m before the Q400 could start to do anything in and out of PLH, maybe a bit less if all you wanted to do was a hop to EXT or NQY.

[Out Of Trim]

LGW does not have the international connections that LHR has, I posted a while back, as no LHR slots available, they need a South West to CDG or AMS route to offer pax international connections from/to the South West.


Not between the more historical schedule to schedule type airlines perhaps..

However, it would not be that difficult to collect one's baggage on arrival and bag drop onto a connecting flight of your choice having already checked-in to your connecting flight online. Probably safer in terms of seeing your baggage at your final destination!


From Gatwick's Web site:-

Gatwick Airport is the UK’s second largest airport and the busiest single-runway airport in the world. It serves more than 200 destinations (more than any other UK airport) in 90 countries for around 33 million passengers a year on short- and long-haul point-to-point services.


Hardly short of International Connections then!

[bravoromeosierra]

I'm surprised Air Southwest didn't engage in wider connectivity with some of the larger airlines at Gatwick, but then again it's easy for me to say that with no knowledge of the airline business.

[Skipness One Echo]

Hardly short of International Connections then!

No but how many have interline agreements and checked baggage through with Air South West? Do even BA have this option considering they handle WOW?

easyJet and Ryanair don't connect or interline so let's take them, Thomson and Thomas Cook out of the equation.

Once they're gone, there's not a lot of meat left at LGW. Connections are a LHR thing.

[Out Of Trim]

Hence, why I stated;



Not between the more historical schedule to schedule type airlines perhaps..

However, it would not be that difficult to collect one's baggage on arrival and bag drop onto a connecting flight of your choice having already checked-in to your connecting flight online. Probably safer in terms of seeing your baggage at your final destination!




So therefore, you could connect yourself with the likes of Ezy and Ryan Air etc. You would just have to sort out the Baggage pick-up yourself and drop off and arrange seperate flight bookings.. No that hard to do!

[WOWBOY]

What are the chances of another carrier coming onto the service? Or mabye launching a replacement service to LTN or STN?

[bravoromeosierra]

WOWBOY.. I think you'll find that slot has already been filled by Flybe.

[kala87]

I agree with the view that north London and the northern home counties is a major market with no air link to NQY since Ryanair pulled off STN-NQY. Getting to LGW from this area is a pain even using Thameslink rail through central London, with its frequent delays and lack of through service at weekends due to engineering works. I'm surprised EZY haven't considered at least a daily rotation from LTN to NQY, possibly 2 x daily in summer. I know that Aer Arann operated this route several years back for one season, with poor load factors, but this was with ATR's and only operated several days a week, with little promotion in the media. As a result, one of the most prosperous parts of the UK has no effective air link to Cornwall.

[EI-BUD]

"Air Southwest has also confirmed that it is having exploratory discussions with Flybe on potential areas for future positive cooperation going forward."




So if exploratory discussions have been taking place, what if any are the implications for Eastern?

Given that ASW are withdrawing from what was their long standing market it is a surrender to Flybe of their key market. What could the talks be about ASW becoming a franchisee?

EI-BUD

[cornishsimon]

No but how many have interline agreements and checked baggage through with Air South West? Do even BA have this option considering they handle WOW?




none at all, have said it many times, but if SZ offered a codeshare with BA im pretty sure that the loads and yield would of been much higher, its just amazing that considering BA handled SZ that they didnt codeshare and interline, bit pathetic really !!
cs