The Misery of Flying

[PBL]

A thoughtful article in today's Economist about the economics of commercial airline flying: Air travel: The misery of flying | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/node/17857391?story_id=17857391)

PBL

[PAXboy]

It is well set out, as one would expect of the magazine, but there is nothing new in it. Much of it makes the same mistake that so many others do - that the airline biz is somehow 'special'. It is special in that enables a lot of other business to function but the idea that less or more regulation will improve/worsen it - is laughable. For the time being, it is only the price of the ticket (that is, end cost you pay) that drives the majority of leisure purchases and a great percentage of business ones too.

Here's an example of them stating the obvious:
Mr Neels also worries that airline bosses’ financial incentives make them do things that yield short-term profits but risk harming their firms’ reputations. They cut costs by skimping on service, for example.Heck, I saw companies doing that 20+ years ago with outsourcing and cutting back on maintenance. The only difference was, it took longer to filter through to the air carriers.

When an industry falls from it's peak of excellence, as airlines have, before they can rise to the top again, the wheel has to turn all the way though the cycle. In my view, we are not yet at the bottom of the circle. Nowhere near. It has to get a lot worse and a considerable millions more not to be happy and, yes, some more people to die.

That's how human beings work.

[A2QFI]

I don't have to fly much and totally avoid it where possible. I find that many places I might want to fly to are served, in the main, by flights that require me to set an alarm for 0300 to make a check-in for a 0700 take-off - this is a poor start to travel of any sort, for me.

I also compare and contrast the security measures at airports, which may need to be as stringent and intrusive/humiliating as they are, and those for Eurotunnel, where it is possible to be checked in and in the holding area within 10 minutes of reaching the check-in booth.

Is a bomb in a train in the tunnel any less signifigant than one in an aircraft and, if so, in what way?

[Hotel Tango]

A2QFI, it may well be the case now but just wait until a bomb does go off in a train in the tunnel, or anywhere in the UK for that matter. You will then see how it will all change and render travel by train just as miserable as flying.

[ExXB]

A2QFI, it may well be the case now but just wait until a bomb does go off in a train in the tunnel, or anywhere in the UK for that matter. You will then see how it will all change and render travel by train just as miserable as flying.But the French TGVs have been bombed and I seem to recall some bombs on the London underground and bus. However security for trains and local transit, if there is any, is nothing like getting on a plane. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting it should change)

No, for a number of reasons aviation is 'special' and 'different'.

[Espada III]

Quite simply the human mind can copy 'rationally' with a bomb or other terrorist atrocity on train or boat or underground, usually because there are survivors to tell what happened (7/7 bombings inquest for example).

When a plane falls out of the sky (Air France last year) there is no way of knowing what really happened - only educated assumptions based upon investigation but no first hand knowledge. Not that Air France A330 was bombed, but various other aircraft have been bombed out of the sky and as humans we find that far worse and unimaginable - so security is far stricter.

[strake]

I also compare and contrast the security measures at airports, which may need to be as stringent and intrusive/humiliating as they are, and those for Eurotunnel, where it is possible to be checked in and in the holding area within 10 minutes of reaching the check-in booth.

Completely agree. I will do everything possible not to fly to Northern France, Belguim or Netherlands. I would give anything not to have to fly to Germany every week but 1.5hrs each way on Ryanair compared to a day/night or so by train is unfortunately, a no-brainer. Now, if I was staying for a couple of weeks or longer then maybe...
Sad isn't it, that in this "modern age" we have been reduced to such a sorry state by governments across the world applying grossly exaggerated applications of FUD?

[Capot]

A2QFI, it may well be the case now but just wait until a bomb does go off in a train in the tunnel, or anywhere in the UK for that matter. You will then see how it will all change and render travel by train just as miserable as flyingDoes the date '7th July 2005' ring any bells?

To say nothing of a large number of explosions over the last 4 decades by Catholic terrorists?

Mind you, the train in UK is already just as miserable as flying; overpriced, overcrowded, inefficient, chronically late, service cancellations, no service, dreadful stations,......but that's without any attempt at security, which would probably be the last nail in the coffin.

[Hotel Tango]

Actually, I was refering exclusively to security on trains using the Eurotunnel as mentioned by A2QFI.

[Capot]

Hotel Tango 10th......

just wait until a bomb does go off in a train in the tunnel, or anywhere in the UK for that matter. You will then see how it will all change and render travel by train just as miserable as flying. Hotel Tango 12th.....

I was refering exclusively to security on trains using the EurotunnelWell, I'm glad we cleared that up.....for a moment there I thought you meant 'anywhere in the UK'.

[BRUpax]

Have you got a personal grudge against HT capot? Strangely enough I understood what he meant - reading his answer in context with A2QFI's post.
And if I recall correctly, no TGV train has ever been bombed. I believe that explosives were discovered on track used by the TGV and that was all.

[Hotel Tango]

In my haste at the time I did in fact express myself badly. I am grateful to capot for bringing this to my attention.

[Piltdown Man]

...but 1.5hrs each way on Ryanair compared to a day/night or so by train is unfortunately, a no-brainer.

Absolutely! Don't even give that Pikey the steam off your pee!

[ExXB]

And if I recall correctly, no TGV train has ever been bombed. I believe that explosives were discovered on track used by the TGV and that was all.
From WikiPedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_accidents):
31 December 1983: Terrorist bombing
Trainset involved: Sud-Est, unknown
Service: Marseille to Paris, unknown
Location: Near Tain-l'Hermitage, south of Lyon in the Rhône Valley
Injuries: 2 people died in the bombing of the TGV.
The bomb was placed in a luggage rack in a trailer vestibule. It exploded at about the same time as another bomb which was placed in a baggage locker in the Marseille St-Charles station. The toll from both bombs totalled 5 dead and 50 injured. Both bombs were the work of the infamous terrorist Carlos the Jackal.

I'm not certain of the attribution to 'Carlos', that may be speculation - but this is WikiPedia. The other facts I believe are correct.

[Parapunter]

I've just done France and back on Eurostar & can confirm that the security is on a par with anything I've experienced at airports in Europe. Having said that, they do keep it moving where they can. All told a five minute queue at Ashford & the same at Bourg St. Maurice. Considerably cheerier folk than one finds at Gatwick too.

[BRUpax]

:ok: Fair enough, but that was 1983, loooong before the present day security paranoia began.

[ExXB]

:ok: Fair enough, but that was 1983, loooong before the present day security paranoia began.Not sure I see your logic here. However I can say that today, almost 30 years after a successful bombing of a TGV, their is still NO security before boarding a TGV at Geneva. I can't comment on Eurostar, I've never used it. What happened then could easily happen now.

Which begs the question, if aviation security was relaxed (say only a random 10% of passengers checked at all), would their be an increase in incidents? If there were, would any of them be successful? The shoe bomber wasn't successful, the undi-bomber wasn't successful, the recent 'hijack attempt' on Turkish wasn't successful.

[Trinity 09L]

The editor of the Economist allows/commissions the article to be printed. What is the alternative, no fly, sail on a liner in force 8 gales unable to dock, travel by car/coach on snow covered roads. So there was disruption, I spent an extra night at LGW hotel in Dec.:bored:
This article will not change the world:ugh:

[freegeek]

I used to fly a lot (every week) for work. It's not the cramped seats or the ****ty food that makes it such a miserable experience. It's the delays, the hours wasted in airports on friday nights when you want to go home. It's the sometimes endless security lines or the lines for immigration.

[OFSO]

I would give anything not to have to fly to Germany every week but 1.5hrs each way on Ryanair compared to a day/night or so by train is unfortunately, a no-brainer

We have switched from flying Girona - Stansted to taking the train Perpignan - St Pancras (London). And the journeys compare like this:

Journey by LOCO: drive to airport one hour, an hour to wait, embarking, flight 2 hours with disembarking, hour into London, half hour's taxi. Plus about 1/2 hour pissing about with security, immigration :mad: etc. Makes just over six hours.

Journey by train: drive to station one hour, five hours to Paris on TGV, fifteen minutes taxi across Paris, two hours twenty to London on Eurostar, ten minutes taxi. Fastest I have done it door to door is nine hours (December 22nd 2010 despite the snow).

Cost: By LOCO about €60 one way, average price, taxes & charges included, but with only hand luggage, not carrying checked-in bags. Contents of hand luggage limited to whatever the powers that be have decided is safe this week.

Cost: by train about €120 one way, if booked three months in advance. (PREMS on the TGV). Two suitcases allowed free of charge, only limit "you must be able to lift them on and off yourself". Contents anything you like.

BUT: the TGV train cost is for a first class ticket, downstairs (double decker trains) in the quiet lounge, single reclining armchair seat. Power point for laptop and toys, bar upstairs, reasonable prices. Only snacks but good wine, fresh croissants, excellent coffee.

In terms of cost pure and simple, the LOCO flights win. In terms of value-for-money, no contest: the TGV and Eurostar win outright because of their comfort. In terms of arriving at your destination in a calm and relaxed mood, again, the train wins every time. And since the train originates in and terminates in the centre of the city, no "will it/won't it go" worries with the Stansted Express.

Incidently we still drive to Perpignan to catch the early train, but as of December 19th last year when the new high speed track and Pyrannees tunnels opened, the later TGVs originate at Figueras, Spain.