Joining the R.A.A.F

[Swift91]

Hey guys, I've been looking every where for questions like this but cant find any so id thought id ask.

<skip the life story and read the question at the bottom if need be.>
I'm 19 and I've always wanted to become a pilot but always thought it would be one of those jobs that was way out my league (at the end of year 12 i passed maths A and English with a C), but due to my resent independence iv realised that i should do what I want with my life, so I've decided at the end of this year I'm going to attempt to joining the R.A.A.F as a pilot, but I want to be prepared for it being someone who's never studied in his life I need to know what to studie for, by the time i go for my interview i want to be able to pass the aptitude, maths and English test as well as have a minimum of 20 hours of flight time under my belt.

So I would love to know what i need to studie for and how much, what the correct proses is for joining the R.A.A.F as a pilot and any other information that i might need as well as books and night classes that you could recommend?

[717tech]

It might be worth giving the RAAF a call... they should be able to tell you the process and what you should do in the mean time.

Good luck!

[morno]

You might want to study engrish a bit more, most of that was hard to read because it was poorly written, :ugh:.

morno

[Josh Cox]

Lay off morno, he did say he got a "C" for english :).

[Jack Ranga]

Yes, looking at that I don't think they'll take your C! :E

Old fart comment coming:

Seriously, I don't think they would have let me out of year 10 with grammar and spelling like that.

[Sqwark2000]

Everything you're looking for is here:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/333897-raaf-flight-screening-program-merged.html

Be warned though that for someone who freely admits you've never studied before that that'll show up in your school transcripts etc and could be a massive indicator to the RAAF about your motivation, and ability to pass one of the more grueling training programs in the world (military pilot training in general)

Good luck though, you won't know unless you try.

Cheers

S2K

[VH-XXX]

It wasn't the spelling and grammar that I noticed in the post, but rather the 130+ word paragraph! I ran out of breath simply reading it to myself!

[FO4EVA]

Mate, my new year resolution is stopping me from typing what I'd like to, so I'll be nice.
Go back and get an A in English at night school. You know it's a weakness, and it's painfully obvious to us reading your post. Still apply, and if you get an interview, you can at least say you're trying to improve an identified weakness.
You don't need 20hrs flying experience.

[Macchi 408]

One of the key qualities that is a major requirement for Officers and especially Pilot's going into the ADF - Initiative. As mentioned above, all of this information is easily accessible on the defencejobs website...


But because I'm nice:
It's not so much any practical skills (ie flying) that the RAAF will look at, but more so your ability to learn large amounts of information in a short amount of time.

Don't worry about the flying now, the first thing you'll want to focus on is when you go before the Officer Selection Board (OSB) who determine you're qualities and weaknesses of being an Officer (which RAAF Pilot's hold rank). The things they look for are leadership, initiative, motivation, teamwork etc. They highly regard cases where you've shown these qualities in positions such as School Captaincy's and when you've contributed to the community in your local area.

Think of all the leaders you've had in your life, the people you look up to. The qualities they have are what you should aim to develop, and their bad qualities try and reverse-engineer.

There are two ways of joining the RAAF as a Pilot:

1) Through the Australian Defence Force Academy (ADFA) in Canberra, ACT. You'll undertake a Bachelor Degree which for pilot's is often the Bachelor of Technology (Aviation). This is administered by the UNSW. Whilst undertaking you're studies you will be given the rank of Officer Cadet (OFFCDT) and will also undergo military training that includes Physical Development, Single Service Training (SST) which is learning about your service - RAAF and many more. It's a great experience and the facilities are some of the best in Australia. On completion of your studies at ADFA you will then be given a job in your field and commence practical flight training. You'll be promoted to Flying Officer (FLGOFF) unless you screwed up badly, in which case you'll be Pilot Officer (PLTOFF).

The prerequisite requirements for entry to ADFA can be found on defencejobs.gov.au and it has a table so you can see what level of education you need in your particular state/territory.

2) As a Direct Entry, which essentially doesn't have the ADFA part.
You'll find they encourage as many people under 25 as they can to go through ADFA, and it's become the standard method of entry. Direct entry is more so focused on people who already have a significant amount of flying time or are coming over to Australia from an overseas Air Force.

I know many people who have applied to become Pilot's and have been told to come back in 12 months multiple times. If they reject your application, find out why and then build on that. Biggest thing is to never give up, as they only take the cream of the crop.

[VH-XXX]

You need to show an amount of *desperation* to be successful and demonstrate that you will do *anything* to get in.

Had a mate who eventually got in after 3 years being told to come back in 12 months each time.

He faced questioning like:

Raaf - What kind of vehicle do you drive?
Kid - A $7,000 Ford Falcon ute
Raaf - Why didn't you buy a $1,000 car and spend the remaining $6k on flying lessons?

Essentially, they said, get 3 jobs, work your a-rse off, start uni, get jacked off and come back to us when you you really need a job in the raaf.

This particular guy missed out on his second last run because the guy he was up against, points for points, equivalent candidates, but the other guy had a $30k debt for his CPL, so he got in, because he needed it the most. (I'm not just making this up by the way)

Basically you need life experience. Same with the police force, you *could* get in at 18, but you wouldn't have the required *life experience*.

[Bug4514]

Hey Mate, I went through all the testing a few years ago. It is tough and all the above comments are right.
By the looks of things you do need to do a lot of work.
Look up Doc Holding from the Colleage of Aeronautical Science, he has some great courses that will help you out a lot.
He has a web site so check it out. If you get to OSB don't show fear and stand up for yourself they love it.
Good luck.

[Macchi 408]

Also adding, I know people who have had their applications rejected even when they satisfied all the selection criteria because when they finally had a psychologist examination they were deemed "not aggressive enough".

You really need what they're looking for, because there's a big line to get in and they want the best of it.

Good luck :ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

You really need what they're looking for, because there's a big line to get in and they want the best of it.

Crap!

You really need what they're looking for, because there's a big line to get in and they want what they want!

Dr :8

[VNE405]

Swift91, You sound much like myself 9 years ago. Me no good at english. I had a 'gap year' (I hate that saying) where I surfed most of the east coast. I then took some time to find my feet. Now I am a employee of the Queen with many interesting and happy years of flying behind me and many more to come.

How I hear you say? One word, 'determination'. If you listen to the negatives in aviation you will be one of the 'could have beens' or 'never was' aviators out there. If it takes you a year or two to prepare, take it. But also there is no time like the present to give it a go.

Why the entry criteria? To ensure that there is a logical list of potentials. Book smart aviation buffs. Well sort of book smart. After the entry criteria it is all up to you to land the job.

Remember... step on the ball and always think wind.

[CoodaShooda]

If you listen to the negatives in aviation you will be one of the 'could have beens' Class of '77..........:O

However, having watched my son recently (and successfully) undergo the RAAF Pilot Selection process :E , I thoroughly endorse those who advise you to upgrade your educational skills (getting in seems to be the comparatively easy bit - doing the course and being there at the end will take a lot of strength and determination), thoroughly research what is required and persevere.

Best of luck.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Don't let other people decide what you can or cannot do.

So I would love to know what i need to studie for and how much, what the correct proses is for joining the R.A.A.F as a pilot and any other information that i might need as well as books and night classes that you could recommend?

Your success or failure may be determined by how much of this question you can answer by yourself.

[mcgrath50]

Work your but off to research, talk to people and gain knowledge of the job and the service. Study up on maths, aviation and military/world knowledge. Be confident, enthusiastic, honest and humble when talking to DFR or personnel.

[walesregent]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned, but unless you have done physics and calculus at a recognised academic institution, don't even bother with an application. I made it through all of the aptitude testing up to the point of officer selection until it occurred to someone that I hadn't done the appropriate maths and sciences at high school and suggested that my application would not even be considered. So if you haven't done said subjects at school (and it is worth clarifying with a few people in the selection process- don't rely on the advice of just one, as I did during initial application- if there are any other academic requirements) you will have to look at doing them before applying.

[Roller Merlin]

Sorry to rain on the parade a little, however the prevalence of good ADF salaries and lack of leavers means the RAAF training "tap" is being turned down a bit at the moment, so it will be harder to secure a position.

That being said, history shows that this is an indicator of an imminent upswing in the aviation industry (ADF actions being delayed over a couple of years), so in a year or so there will likely be strong moves to turn the tap back up again.

Regardless of what happens, just know what you want to do, learn everything you can about it, make good contacts and go for it. No regrets. Cheers.

[A37575]

You don't need 20hrs flying experience.

True that you don't need 20 hours flying experience but from my personal experience I strongly recommend you go to a Recreation Aviation Australia flying school (generally cheaper than a GA flying school) and get to solo standard. With a good instructor, that should take less than 10 hours.

I failed in my first attempt to join the RAAF and knew I had to come up with something different to impress the RAAF Interview Board next time around. Due to circumstances beyond my control I was living alone and on the bones of my arse at age 18 but was able to save enough money by going short on food buying (Mars Bars for evening meal) until I scraped up enough cash to learn to fly.

Was fortunate enough to have a wonderful former wartime Hudson pilot as an instructor at Bankstown and was able to go solo in eight hours. By then I had run out of money. A few months later I proudly presented my brand new flying log book to the Interview Board and got the nod. The rest is history.

Now here is the interesting part. 45 years later I applied for a copy of my RAAF Service Records which duly arrived in the mail from Canberra. One of the first entries was by the senior officer in charge of the Interview Board.

Among his comments was an annotation that I had 8 hours flying experience since the last failed interview and this revealed enthusiasm and keeness. He ticked the boxes and I was in like Flynn.

The initial flying training was called "Flight Grading" on Tiger Moths at Archerfield. There you were given ten hours of dual instruction in a Tiger Moth including a Progress test by the CFI ar five hours, and another test at ten hours this time with the Commanding Officer.

Those students that were marked above a certain level during the flight grading were then scheduled for pilot training - while those under the line were sent to the RAAF School of Navigation to be trained as navigators.

My previous eight hours on civilian Tiger Moths gave me that vital leg up the ladder and I passed flight grading and became a pilot. Without the confidence that gave me, I would have been just one of 70 hopefuls trying to get above the red line and it could have gone either way. So much depended on the quality of your flying instructor. A sceaming skull instructor would have been disastrous but even so, the eight hours of civilian flying before joining the RAAF gave me a distinct advantage.
Apologies for long story...

[likes2fly]

For those thinking about going for ADF testing.

Personally i think the ADFA entry is a big wank. Good idea financially, and if you wanna play pretend officer at a university, but if you don't get through pilots course you will be stuck in the ADF doing something you don't want paying back your adfa time. And really you've joined to be a pilot, so why go through all the military crap for years when all you wanna do is fly.

Direct entry is the way to go. But stop, don't rush into it. Go get some life experience first, go rooting, working, studying, traveling etc. Someone who does well on course is one who has the maturity and strength to get through what is an extremely mentally demanding course. The young guys who can get through it all at 19 or so are those of the few who are naturally talented and very able pilots. If that is you then go for it.

For FSP. Wouldn't recommend doing too much flying, if that is all you are doing it for. I'd say ten hours in something aerobatic, five hours with lots of aero's and chucking a plane around, and five hours doing circuits and handling. Learn flying attitudes and pictures as this is all the ADF want to see.

Study all three services, have a preference, but don't rule out another. Each service should be considered a foot in a pretty good door. The others may not offer!

And if you get in.... just be ready to bend over and take that big pineapple up the A r s e!

[djwarchild]

Hey guys, just want to back up what someone said earlier.

If you haven't noticed he doesn't have the minimum required high school subjects let alone anything else. Forget life experience, flight experience, blah, blah, blah.

He won't even progress to an assessment day unless he does something about that...

[mrdeux]

Well, I will rain on the parade. I used to sit on pilot selection boards, and based upon what I've read here, he wouldn't have a chance.

I might add that I never considered a few hours of basic flying to be of any value one way or the other. It may have shown a level of keeness, but that was always easy enough to discern anyway.

[Toppie]

Mate,

Talk to DFR, study hard, apply. Probably best not to seek answers or gouge from PPRuNe if you are really serious. Very little accurate or useful info to be found here about the ADF.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Bit of thread duplication here lads. This has been re-hashed ad nauseum on the flight screening thread on the military forum.

[Swift91]

Thank you to kind people in the forum the words of advice and encouragement. I've done some research and I've decided on my future ambitions. After I've paid my supportive family back for helping me move cities. I'm aiming to enrol at my local university undertake a six month bridging course while attempting to pay for flying lessons (I'm only aiming to do ten - fifteen hours.) After iv completed my bridging course I'm going to apply for the A.D.F.A studying Bachelor of Technology Aviation (thanks Macchi 408) and if I'm unsuccessfully ill try again next year. And keep trying until I'm accepted or bankrupt. And for everyone else who rather spend two minuets counting the words in a paragraph just to insult rather than contribute useful information to help someone, it really shows what kind of person you are. And I may lack the intelligence that most of you have, I like to the think I make up for it in determination.

My dream is to fly and ill do it any way I can that will keep me in the air for as long as possible...


That sounded better in my head.

[40Deg STH]

OK I'm back in my hotel room in the US on an overnight and may have been at the bar with a bunch of ex-airforce pilots ( all nice guys).
Rule 1, you need commitment first!!!

Rule 2, You wont be the best pilot!!

Rule 3, You have a long way to go boy!!!

Rule 4, Don't ever forget rule 1.

Big picture ****e........You want an airline command in a legacy carrier to provide for a good retirement. Go CX etc ( sorry A and B scale looks like its over)

Good luck and see you in the RSL:ok:

Swift, good luck, you seem like a nice young guy

PS school marks mean "Jack ****"

[mcgrath50]

You say that but on my flight screening course everyone received a UAI well over the level needed. Most (not me :{) received ones good enough for law. I am sure though it has been done by guys who struggled through year 12, and got the minimums needed but it is harder. Admittedly it just buys you a ticket at the table, once you are at flight screening you could be getting 99.95 and they don't give a ****!

[Skynews]

A self funded lobotomy will assist and maybe some Botox for your lips so sucking up to "SIR" will be more productive!

[ozbiggles]

rejection was a bitter pill for you wasn't it skynews

[Flogged Horse]

Gotta love these so called experts on the RAAF who didn't even make it past the first lot of tests and claim to know boats... Thanks for your input skynews:ok::ugh:

[Biggles78]

Thank you to (the) kind people in the forum (for) the words of advice and encouragement. I've done some research and I've decided on my future ambitions. After I've paid my supportive family back for helping me move cities.(,) I'm aiming to enrol at my local university (and) undertake a six month bridging course while attempting to pay for flying lessons(.) (I'm only aiming to do ten - fifteen hours.) After iv (I've) completed my bridging course I'm going to apply for the A.D.F.A studying Bachelor of Technology Aviation (thanks Macchi 408) and if I'm unsuccessfully (unsuccessful) ill (I'll) try again next year. And (NEVER start a sentence with a conjunction) keep trying until I'm accepted or bankrupt.
[New paragraph]
And (again, NEVER start a sentence with a conjunction) for everyone else who rather spend two minuets counting the words in a paragraph just to insult rather than contribute useful information to help someone, it really shows what kind of person you are. And (conjunction) I may lack the intelligence that most of you have, I like to the think I make up for it in determination.

My dream is to fly and ill (I'll) do it any way I can that will keep me in the air for as long as possible...


That sounded better in my head.



First, the correction above is not an attack but rather a lesson on how the post should possibly be grammatically and punctually correct. My post is also not a comment on the military.
My dream is to fly and ill do it any way I can that will keep me in the air for as long as possible...
If this quote is true, then you you will find a job that pays the most (I worked nights because there was a 30% shift allowance and they were 12 hour shifts) and save your $$$. Get your PPL, maybe a NVFR and study for the exams. Personally I found a CPL ground course suited me best for the theory subjects but that was in the days before the internet and online courses.

When you have passed all the CPL theory exams you should be close to either starting your CPL training or even be part way through it. When you have your hard earned Professional Licence, the hard work now begins. Maybe back to the non flying work to get a multi endorsement or Instrument Rating all the while studying for the ATPL theory exams.

There are threads in this Forum about how and where to find flying work in OZ so it would be well worth searching them.

Obviously what I have suggested above is a personal opinion but I believe it will get you flying sooner than via the airforce path and YOU will have more control over your career path and not be relying on the results expected from your Government employer. (I had a colleague who obtained his CPL at 200 hours but was rejected when he applied for the airforce with the comment, "you don't have much of an aptitude for flying". He has been flying airliners for many years now.

I would suggest that you do a Class 1 medical BEFORE deciding on anything. I know one person who discovered a medical problem that stopped him from obtaing a CPL only after he had a PPL, passed the CPL exams and was starting his CPL training. He was devastated.

Good luck with your career in aviation, whatever path you choose. (Army fly rotary wing. This may be an alternative option)

[Stikybeke]

Hey Swifty.....

You're obviously a young bloke so.....Why not just be yourself and go for it (as opposed to some of us who due to age cannot no longer contemplate such a luxury) ....the thread is all good advice but cannot replicate who you are....if you are fair dinkum about this then you will make it happen regardless of what any of us say.

As a matter or courtesy, let us how you go. Maybe even loop us in through the entire process from start to finish (i.e.Wings). To do so would be a first (I stand corrected Mods if I'm wrong here....)

Good Luck.

Stiky
:ok:

[Wizofoz]

Just to back up Biggles here- Swift, if you join the RAAF as a pilot, you are first and foremast an Officer, and expected to have a high level of English writing ability.

If you can't take criticism of your demonstrated ability in what is a vital aspect of the path you claim to want to pursue, it is much more reflective of the type of person YOU are, not those trying to help you.

[baron_beeza]

I am guilty of not having read the associated Military Forum here but just a quick note. I am sure many reading this thread would have been through the process, possibly even involved in the selection and training of the recruits.

The military recruit Officers, not pilots. As Officers the men are expected to command the respect of their subordinates, not be the subject of jokes.

The truth is that an amateurish knowledge of the English language just won't cut it. The selection format is a culling process, from start to finish... hours in a logbook account for nothing if the candidate can't make it past the initial stages.

A great deal of emphasis is placed on Personal Qualities and Abilities, - characteristics formed well before the final years at high school.

The desire to be a pilot is great, and to be applauded. I just wanted to point out the military take on the situation. Many guys get knocked back at some stage of the play, it is a big club.

A civil career path could be considered easier, normally just taking certain amounts of money and a little luck.

As pointed out, both demand drive and commitment, you seem to be displaying plenty of that. All the best with it..

[Cloud Basher]

Swift,
Let me be the reality police on this and I do not mean to disuade you from what you want to do but I think you need a reality check...

Firstly, determination is not enough. It is merely one aspect of a number of personal attributes the RAAF is looking for.

Secondly, as others have said you are an officer first and foremost so like it or not, you life revloves around staff work. And for staff work you need some modicum of english ability.

You want to succeed? Turn you weaknesses into strenghts, show that you identified them and do something about it. Until then, as another poster stated, you haven't got a hope in hell.

Last I investigated (when one of my ex troops became the head of recuiting in Sydney and we were having some beers), there is upwards of 800 applications submitted for every single aircrew position. There was 2000 odd applicants for the six positions that were selected way back when I joined, PP (Pre PPRuNe). With your schooling standards the RAAF would bin your application straight away. You have to be competitive to get to the initial recuiting then you have to be competitive to go to OSB then you have to be competitive at Flight screening then you have to pass flight training then conversion etc ad nausium. You think some people here are bagging you, well mate, get used to it. Make the grade or go fly civvy aircraft.

Note I am NOT holding RAAF flying as anything greater than flying bug smashers, all I am saying is that you are competing with (genuinely) 50-100 other applicants who are at least as keen, have put in at school, have maybe done some flying, have rehersed their answers to the questiosn likely to be asked, have sort out current serving officers and got the latest gouge from them, have shown some leadership ability in the community, sports clubs, scouts etc. You must stand out amongst them to be considered and quite frankly, if you can't, then you are wasting your time.

Yes I have spelling mistakes in this post, I have been on the piss in Woomera tonight (yes at the famous Eldo) and about to head home after four weeks. I am more than a little smashed whilst I write this and whilst my staff work on this post might not be the best, if you cannot decipher the message then I suggest you are not what the RAAF is looking for and (at no detriment to the RAAF) you will be passed over for someone who does have the above attributes. I do genuinely wish you all the best, if you are keen enough then you will most definitely get in. But keeness (no that isn't a word!) isn't about feeling good from a post on PPRuNe it is about action and results from that action. Take what is said here as encouragement (even the negative posts) learn, grow and give it your best shot.

Cheers
CB

[A37575]

I have been on the piss in Woomera tonight (yes at the famous Eldo) and about to head home after four weeks. I am more than a little smashed whilst I write this and whilst my staff work on this post might not be the best,

I am mightily encouraged after reading this. Over the years I have subscribed to Pprune discussions, and read other forums where some real experts exist, I have occasionally brought up the subject of Pprune during discussions with other pilots. I usually receive a scornful reply along the lines of "you don't spend time on that crap, do you?" It's as though those that read Pprune are perceived as the bogans of the blue skies and that no sensible airman would waste his time on reading that internet rot.

But guess what. I bet those very same decriers of Pprune slyly turn on their computers at night after work and have a quick sneak at whats going on Pprune that day -just like those of us who used to read the Karma Sutra under the blankets when they were teen-agers.

To read that some half-pissed Pprune contributor sees nothing wrong staggering home after a long days flying and having a quick dekko at what's on Pprune cheers me up no end. I for one, have picked up more useful stuff from reading Pprune pages than I ever would from reading books on flying. The links alone attached by thoughtful contributors include so much of value in the field of flight safety that every current pilot should read.

Now back to the original thread:ok:

[Cloud Basher]

A37575,
Firstly I resemble that remark! Secondly about the only time I get to read PPRUNE is when I am deployed as when I am at home the wife and kids see to it I spend bugger all time on the confuser and thirdly, what-th-fcuk else is there to do in Woomera!!!! (Note the exclamation marks and not question marks)

Seriously, I have to agree. Sort the wheat from the chaff and occaisionally there is a real gem posted by someone on here. Although I do feel that the GA forum has degraded somewhat into a boys club with about ten or so regular contributors who contribute to almost every thread usually looking for some response from another member of the boys club, but I guess it just adds to the charm that is PPRUNE and if you don't like it then bugger off. Now back to the bar and get me a nice Coopers Pale Ale! Can you believe they ran out a week or so ago... And I ain't drinking that West End CRAP for no one!

Now where were we? Oh yeah join the RAAF and get deployed, miss your kids birthdays (and their births!). In twelve years of being with my wife we have spent two birthdays together (that is one of hers and one of mine), one Valentines Day, lost camping trips, holidays recalled at Christmas due to some bloody natural disaster somewhere, get shot at, blown up etc. And all that is just the upside! Bwahahahahahaha The worst part is having to wear thongs in shower for six months at a time...

Yes, I started early this afternoon so you will have to forgive me. Been a long trip and someone emailed me a youtube clip of guys returnimg home from service and the response as they surpirsed their families. Tugged at the heart strings a bit.

Would I do it all again. Bloody Oath! And yes I am still doing it! idiot I know...

Respectfully to all my brothers-in-arms
CB

P.S. Just reminded me of a ANZAC day I spent somewhere where I ended up being the sober driver. One of my boys got absolutely maggotted and ended up having a little accident during the dawn service. One person was that disgusted with his efforts she wanted his head. I just said to her that I reckon the original ANZACS would probably be mighty proud of the young lad, as whilst he might not have been in the best state, he made the effort, got dressed up and after his little purging continued on and did the march. Now thats fighting spirit!

PP.S. Two tours at the Murderous Marauding Magpies hey?

[Chronic Snoozer]

To be honest I think the guy was just stating a fact that on that day, with his quals/experience, a board wouldn't have recommended him. Call it realistic.

Anyway whats wrong with a bit of reverse psychology? Makes some people even more determined.

[flighthappens]

Telling people they can't succeed - at the end of the day what are you achieving?

Anyway whats wrong with a bit of reverse psychology? Makes some people even more determined.

Nothing wrong with just telling the truth either...

[Captain Sand Dune]

The truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!

And sadly, a lot of them can't...........

[marguerita]

Agree entirely. The basics of educational requirements are a stopper. In the essay stage if you can't write you're done. No point sugar coating it, better you get the advice and work on it, plenty of others out there will.

Add into that the tap being (markedly) reduced and the level of competition increases even further. That said, as has also been covered, go for it. motivation is a big part of it - but only a part.

Loosing weight is one thing, but academics are something else. if God gave you a Pentium Quad Pro Google Pixel Mega Processor then great, if he gave you a 286 then you're stuffed. Period. We can knock the corners off a bit, but you're stuck with it.

[oldpinger]

Reverse (ish) Psych can work- we were told on day one by our Divisional officer that he had just got back from a wings parade with 2 people (out of 25) left on it. His advice- make sure you're one of those two.

Well it worked for me anyway!