BAA Board; Isn't it about time at least one of them resigned?

[sky9]

BAA: The Board (http://www.baa.com/portal/page/BAA+Airports%5EAbout+BAA%5EWho+we+are%5EOur+management%5EThe +Board/23446b0d04eee110VgnVCM10000036821c0a____/448c6a4c7f1b0010VgnVCM200000357e120a____/)

Isn't it about time one of the above should fall on his sword and resign?

They could then get someone in from Zürich, Geneva or Munich to run the airport.

[FullWings]

Maybe they could get out to LHR and bring a few shovels with them? Latest reports have 27L being shut until Wednesday at the earliest. It's now nearly two days since the last snow but as I write I can see the first few flakes of the next lot...

Might as well give up now. :mad:

[M2dude]

Oh I'm sure that they'll want to refund landing and parking charges to all the airlines. (And maybe give their security staff a humanity and common sense shot too). It really is a freekin' disgrace).

Regards
Dude :O

[martinidoc]

Wonder why there was a differential effect with T5 being closed earlier and for longer. Could it be that the specification of service level agreed between BAA and BA was inadequate? Why did BA cancel many of their flights on Thursday when there was no weather reason to do so, apart from at Aberdeen? One gets the impression that BA can't be bothered when things get too difficult, and the management have lost control to the extent that the inconvenience of the staff is a higher priority than that of the passengers. There were hardly any BA staff to be seen anywhere on when the chaos started on Thursday, and the low level customer service people who were around were not empowered to do anything. "Landing" or getting people out of the terminal is a shambolic event, which seems more akin to the "kettling" techniques for controlling riots.
They don't need to go to the Geneva etc to find out how to keep an airfield open, Newcastle will do, where several of the BA longhaul fleet are presently residing.

[KBPsen]

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2010/12/19/PH2010121900863.jpg

[DB6]

What you can't expect from these people are morals. Anyone who authorises or permits no water to be available airside except if you buy it, no waiting or dropoffs except if you pay for it, security plastic bags for £1 each etc. etc. sits alongside the dog**** I scrape off my shoe on a bad day. I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.

[letMfly]

Why should a foreign owned company invest millions in snow clearing equipment for a "once in twenty years" event?
This is what happens when a country sells off its strategic assets to private companies that have profit as their number one objective.
Our ATC system is next to be flogged off to the highest bidder!:ugh:

[stuckgear]

DB6, you're kinda beating round the bush a bit there.. ! :p

What's really yanking 3 meters of barbed wire through my starfish right now is who is going to be picking up the bill on the scheduled flight delays etc. ?

yep you've guessed it.

and the airlines pay how much for landing and handling at LHR ? On top of the pax are paying exactly how much in taxation on their flight tickets ????

what did BAA turn profit wise last year.. 1 billion UK ?

when this industry is on its knees, broken and bloody, we have had several instances this year of major interruptions to operations leaving the carriers to foot the bill for delays the inability to operate their schedules, meanwhile the passengers are punitively taxed for the privilege, airlines are taxed punitively for the privilege and the airlines have no option to take it in the a$$, which then translates down to loss of margins, which translates to lower T&C's to stay profitable.

Caught an interview on radio this AM with a 'spokesperson' for BAA heathrow who cited an 'unprecidented' level of snow.

"unprecedented" :mad: :mad: :mad: that word gets thrown about way too much as an excuse for failure.

though i'm sure "lessons will be learned'!

[stuckgear]

Why should a foreign owned company invest millions in snow clearing equipment for a "once in twenty years" event?



yep, it's just a shame that the '1 in twenty year event' has happened, what, 6 times in the past 14 months !!

just as well we have the "Met Office weather and climate change forecasts for the UK and worldwide."

Hmm hows that (factored) 0.2 deg rise in temp working for ya ! :yuk:

oh sorry, that's climate, this is weather.. :E

[stuckgear]

Snow removal UK style.

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2010/12/19/PH2010121900863.jpg


Sorry, i find this picture graphically incorrect:

With two 'snow removal exectives' at work, there should be at least 4 health and safety inspectors to make sure that any broom is the used to correct way round to prevent injury to bystanders and the general public.

Even though they are in hi-vis, there are no hard hats, the area they are working in is not fenced off, no crash barriers erected and no signage to indicate the risk of slipping, and signage to indicate the risk of tripping on the 'risk of slipping' signage. etc etc etc. :E

[WHBM]

Plenty of comparisons with Helsinki going around.

One that needs more emphasis is that Helsinki Vantaa is seen as a key strategic part of the national infrastructure, treated by the government and its operator in these terms. In comparison Heathrow was allowed by the Department for Transport to be flogged off to Spanish investors without any consideration for how their extreme economies and squeezes on cost would affect the UK's transport, or the overall economy.

Heathrow has two runways, Helsinki has three, one of recent build. In a country of high environmental awareness there was no pandering to the Greens on building that. When it's snowing when I am there they always manage to keep two operational while ploughing the third, then they switch round.

This morning the current UK Transport Secretary Philip Hammond (MP for Weybridge, prime Hacan territory of course) gave his usual bumbling, um-ah-er, type of TV interview about the new railway from London to Birmingham, stating that there was a need to "anticipate increases in demand, the present railway will soon be full up, and provide for resilience of the future transport network for the sake of the UK economy". And so 120 miles of countryside will be dug up.

This is a curious contrast. Go by train today from Euston to Birmingham and you will see several First Class coaches with about half a dozen passengers in each one, not surprising when the fares for this are higher than BA charged me last time from London to New York (yes, really), meanwhile Heathrow is already beyond capacity on the runways, and has been for years, yet no third runway for them, and it is allowed to be sold to the chancers from Madrid. Why is resilience important at the DfT on one railway route in Britain, but not for the premier airport of the country ?

Separately, who was the BAA buffoon on BBC news this morning who said aircraft de-icer was ineffective below -10 ? Do they think aviation in Helsinki and much of Russia shuts down for three months in the winter ? How do they think the BA A320 which overnights in Helsinki each day ( -21 tonight) manages to get away on time right through the winter ?

[Track Coastal]

stuckgear

oh sorry, that's climate, this is weather.. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif
Don't want to intrude but being an APP Radar controller thats worked in Canada and now in a warm part of Australia, I read a paper once that a warming pole will interrupt the cold deep water Atlantic conveyor from the arctic that feeds the surface warm Gulf stream that flows from the Caribbean to the West of Ireland.

The Gulf Stream keeps the British Isles at low moist temps.

Should the Gulfstream hiccup or stop, you are at similar latitudes to Canada's cities and Moscow etc. so that may be your weather patterns.

The similar Pacific stream keeps Vancouver mild whilst Edmonton freezes.

I'm undecided if its anthro or not but the climate appears to be changing.

[birdstrike]

.....and couldn't they find a 'spokesperson' rather better informed than the guy who appears on the news. Apart from the inevitable ''what if'' scenarios he spouts on every occasion he offers nothing of any value at all. As for an apology for their pathetic performance - don't hold your breath!!

[simfly]

Someone mentioned Aberdeen before... Here, we have had regular SNOCLO periods, however, we are usually closed for up to 90 mins. It takes approx 1 hour to clear & de-ice the runway and movements continue, albeit at a slightly slower pace. Our runway is half the length of Heathrow, so I don't understand why nearly 48 hours after their snowfall they only have 1 runway clear? Fair enough they have mile after mile of taxiway and stands, but c'mon??

[J.O.]

You folks don't get it. This is just the Spanish taking another shot at the UK carriers because what their ATC does to you is clearly not enough. :{

Seriously though, there does need to be a bit more understanding when it comes to the reaction some people are taking. To set up the kind of winter ops infrastructure that you see in places like Helsinki would be very expensive for what has traditionally been infrequent use.

[Track Coastal]

In Calgary it took about 20mins an hour with huge multion dollar beasts from a sci fi movie.

It now gets done in 10mins.
YouTube - Vammas PSB 5500 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK8VZ6ugkeM)


The older kit
YouTube - Vammas PSB 4500 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeqmfEoK94U)

[green granite]

Presumably they cant employ say a thousand out of work navies cos they don't have air-side passes, or does that go by the board when it suits them?

The government should have the power to fine the company say 50% of their profit and tell them if it happens again it'll be 100%

[Trumpet_trousers]

I think what peeves most people is the fact that there is little, if any information given to people regarding delays etc. Weather conditions aside, the latest fiasco is just one of many where "authorities" either are incapable or simply will not provide any information to the poor traveller. Communication is a wonderful thing, and goes quite a long way to keeping the travellers onside and not simply feeling completely neglected - just how difficult is it to keep the public at large informed? Obviously, in the case of BAA and some airlines, extremely so! :mad:

[martinidoc]

Tried going on BA.com? don't bother, about as useful as trying to go the airport.

Extract from the BA home page:

"Please do not go to the airport unless you have a confirmed booking on a flight that is operating.

Due to high call volumes and website visits you may experience delays contacting us or changing your booking."

In fact the website seems to have crashed presumably due to inability to clear precipitation on the inbound broadband.

[El Grifo]

How are things being handled in other European Airports can anyone say.

Germany for example, has had some pretty significant dumps in recent days, are they displaying the same level of chaos as LGW and LHR.

How or other affected areas coping ?

[Sir George Cayley]

Interesting to compare the Canadian machine with UK equipment. First thing I noticed was the speed at which it was being driven.

UK equipment of similar size and design comes from Overaasen or Scherling but I've never seen them operating at such speeds. 30 to 40 mph is about as fast as they're driven and watching them on TV at LGW a bit back, slower still.

Could this be one reason for problems getting runways cleared?

As for blowers, ever stood next to a Sickard? Words like skin, rice pudding and pull come to mind!

Sir George Cayley

[MarkD]

Stick one of the YYC ones on a C-17 perhaps?

[WhoopWhoopWhoops]

Neither the Major UK airlines or Heathrow or Gatwick will spend the money on the necessary snow and ice removal equipment. Accountants rule.

On the operational side the UK airports waste what few resources they have.

Only the full length and width of runways and the centre line of taxiways need to be cleared.

Aircraft can takeoff and land on icy runways with up to 15mm of slush or 100mm depth of dry snow on them ... A black tarmac is not required.

There are no depth limits for taxiways and aprons.

Yet we see the BAA talk on and on about taxiways and aprons ???

Get the guys some decent boots and put some sand down!!

I have just seen the boss of the BAA on the TV ..I do not see much change , he left me very unimpressed. He seemed to have no operational knowledge. He offered no solutions just telling passengers not to come to the airport.

The fiasco will continue.

[highcirrus]

In Toronto at the moment and thinking back to a departure from YYZ – Toronto, Pearson Int – about this time last year. We were last of a 23 aircraft, early morning “pod”, driving through the six lane de/anti-icing facility followed by a couple of quick(ish) left turns onto 33R for a takeoff in driving snow. All 23 done and safely airborne in 44 minutes. Impressive performance – you’ve got to hand it to the Cannucks!:D

[JCviggen]

<<How are things being handled in other European Airports can anyone say.>>

Can tell you Zaventem (BRU) airport according to news sources is about to "close for departures" because they've just about ran out of de-icing fluid. Slightly embarrassing to say the least.

They won't get any in till wednesday morning :suspect:

[Yellow Sun]

Aircraft can takeoff and land on icy runways with up to 15mm of slush or 100mm depth of dry snow on them ... A black tarmac is not required.



Done a lot of that have you WhoopWhoopWhoops?

There are no depth limits for taxiways and aprons.


And you have tried taxying on them?

YS

[sky9]

I wonder if the directors will achieve their targets and get a big bonus at the end of the year?

[clunckdriver]

Interesting observation Highcirrus, most of us in Canada love to knock Toronto airport, they are by no means the best run airport in Canada when it comes to snow removal, however watching the total screw up in the UK I can see your point. At our main base of operation its common for the airport manager to be seen out driving a plow when things require extra hands on deck, just cant see this hapening at Heathrow somehow! We live on a farm in Ontario pretty much in one of the snow belts, my wife pointed out that our farm tractor/blower combination is better than most of the equipment we have seen on the tube atempting to keep things going in London. If you are flying back to the UK soon you should stock up on snow shovels, could no doubt sell at a large mark up in the UK!

[cats_five]

How are things being handled in other European Airports can anyone say.

Germany for example, has had some pretty significant dumps in recent days, are they displaying the same level of chaos as LGW and LHR.

How or other affected areas coping ?

The Internet is an amazing thing:

Frankfurt Airport | Homepage (http://www.frankfurt-airport.com/content/frankfurt_airport/en.html)

"Flight delays and cancellations might occur at Frankfurt Airport due to wintry weather and reduced visibility.

Passengers are kindly requested to contact their airline and to check traffic reports, e.g. on the radio or on teletext."

Plenty of 'cancelled' on the arrivals / departures and not all to the UK.

[snooky]

UK really need to think about what they want from their airports.

At the moment they are operated largely by a foreign company whose interests are in retail and screwing every last penny from the passenger, as in recently introduced drop off and pick up charges.

Government intervention is needed, get rid off the retail and use the space freed up to provide adequate de icing and queue free security.

BAA need a punishment tax imposed for their pathetic performance, which can be spent remodelling airports as places to travel from instead of being shopping malls.

Maybe its already too late, hub travellers will simply avoid Britain.

[niknak]

Neither the Major UK airlines or Heathrow or Gatwick will spend the money on the necessary snow and ice removal equipment. Accountants rule.


And why should they?

It is the airlines, predominantly BA,who have taken the very astute decision to keep as many of their aircraft in the one place where they can re commence flying from the most profitable perspective.
i.e. if they keep the short haul aircraft at any of the London airports they'll be in the perfect position to recommence services from the home base as soon as conditions permit.
Aircraft stuck in Dublin, Madrid or Paris, for example, require extra crews to ferry them out of there and possibly extra crews to get them back to normal.

It's very unfortunate for the passengers, and well done to Ryanair for taking the plunge and risking everything by putting every resource into putting on extra flights into Stansted to ensure the backlog is catered for.
But anyone in any other industry would have taken the same punt - lose a wee bit of profit by not operating but make sure all your resources are in one place to ensure that when the weather is better, you are ready to give everyone the best service possible.

[sky9]

The problem is you can't clear a stand of snow and ice when there are aircraft on them. It is apparent when flying to European airports that the moment an aircraft moves off stand when it is snowing the snowploughs come on to clean it. Have an airport that works to maximum capacity with aircraft on every stand and the whole airport comes to a grinding halt when it starts snowing.

I wonder if half the problem is that so many managers who experienced snow and ice in the 80's have retired and left young inexperienced people in their place. We've had too many mild winters in the recent past.

[v6g]

Remember that BAA is the company that lost a billion pound contract at Gatwick because they couldn't hire a few extra security guards.

They're a retail company, not an aviation company. They make money whether or not people are actually flying anywhere.

[highcirrus]

clunckdriver

If you are flying back to the UK soon you should stock up on snow shovels, could no doubt sell at a large mark up in the UK!

No, back on a ULH flight to Asia tomorrow, where they don’t need to know one end of a snow shovel from the other!

It’ll be interesting to compare and contrast YYZ’s performance with that of LHR, given the following TAF:

CYYZ 201440Z 2015/2118 28007KT P6SM -SHSN SCT040 BKN080
TEMPO 2015/2016 1SM -SHSN BKN015 OVC070
FM201600 31007KT P6SM -SHSN SCT040 BKN080
TEMPO 2016/2018 3SM -SHSN BKN015 OVC070
FM201800 34012KT P6SM BKN040 BKN080
TEMPO 2018/2109 FEW040 SCT080
FM210900 34008KT P6SM SCT020 BKN150

[Guy D'ageradar]

They could then get someone in from Zürich, Geneva or Munich to run the airport.

Seem to remember a very similar few days in LSGG a few years back - turned up for a morning shift just as they closed for snow clearing, only to clear the runway / taxiways and forget about the apron - result - closed for ~48hrs (memory permitting).

Should the Gulfstream hiccup or stop, you are at similar latitudes to Canada's cities and Moscow etc. so that may be your weather patterns.


Certain scientific circles have been stating for quite some time that this is indeed the case (in particular, with relation to the gulf of mexico oilspill / "cleanup") with north atlantic water temps measured at 10 degrees lower than normal (try googling "Dr. Gianluigi Zangari").

And yet it was all "unforeseeable"! :ugh:

[El Grifo]

Yep cats_five, the internet IS an amazing thing. Hence the reason why I am using it.

I was looking for a more in-depth, first hand kind thing rather that a corporate spout !

I can see for myself the utter chaos from LHR and LGW on the television and get a much clearer impression of exactly what is going on.

I cannot do the same for other European locations.

I am simply trying to understand if the UK reporting is another bash-britain thing, or if other countries are experiencing the same failures.

[londonman]

Buy some shares in Ferrovial and then go along to the next AGM and make your point felt!

[ATNotts]

I was watching a fair bit of ARD (German TV) at the weekend, and it's clear that Frankfurt had problems - on Saturday they lost about 30% of their operation, and even today a significant proportion of services were to be cancelled. BUT, and it's a bit BUT, the airport has not been effectively closed for days on end the airport has continued to function to at least some extent. Lufthansa didn't take a BA type decision to cancel all services from FRA either.

When journalists are comparing how the UK (LHR principally) compares with other airports they always go striaght for Canadian and Scandinavian airports, where they always have "real winter". The comparisons need to be made with AMS, CDG and FRA and against them we simply don't measure up.

In my opinion the blame lies at the door of the idiots that privatised BAA, and permitted airport operators, looking for profit, to pair back too far their snow clearing capacity - and heypresto we wind up in the almighty mess which, whatever the politicians and spin doctors from BAA say, is an embarassment for the UK.

[El Grifo]

BAA has prevented Sky TV at least from reporting inside LHR and LGW today if reports are to be believed !!!

Regarding the atrocious and deteriorating conditions nationwide, at what time do the "government" turn to the military for help ?

[egnxema]

Interesting that Hammond acknowledged in the Commoms today that LHR is operating at 98% capacity most of the time, any hicough caused aircraft delays airside and pax queing out the doors landside.

AMS, FRA & CDG all have the luxury of a number of runways - allowing csnow clearing to be done continually without fully closing the whole airport.

If the Govt's Scientific Review suggests that increased frequency of snow is to be expected from now on, then it is very hypocritical of the Govt to also block an new runways in the South East.

[nivsy]

To offer an answer to the initial post - that xxxxx of a BAA Chief Exec should be the one to walk - what drivel.....
Has he ever heard of Business Continuity plans?
Lesson learnt I hope - that an airport is exactly that - and not a shopping centre....

The mis-information or lack of information has been unprecedented and that is just as bad as the weather situation.


Nivsy

[fivegreenlight]

Can someone explain why LHR only has one runway ops even now ??
It hasn't snowed since Saturday :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[stuckgear]

It hasn't snowed since Saturday


And on sunday mid day Farnborough was operational. (G-V went out as i drove past)

[WHBM]

Imbecile Hammond has just made another hesitant performance, this time in Parliament and thus on television, to announce his grand plan.

The best that the so-highly-paid whizz-kids at the Department for Transport can come up with - they will, most condescendingly, "relax the night flight restrictions at Heathrow for the next three days".

Talk about monkeys running the zoo.

[sky9]

The first question that needs to be asked is: Snow was forecast on the 18th December. What measures were put in place on the night of the 17th to anti ice the stands?

[Skipness One Echo]

Let's be honest. This lot don't HAVE a transport policy. even the easing of the restrictions mean no departures from 0100 to start of play the following day. It's hardly the Dunkirk mentality, expecially with all those marginals in West London.

Hammond came across quite poorly, he's playing politics pretending this is an incredibly rare event. It isn't. I remember them from when I was a kid. My lifetime is a puddle of gnat's **** in climate terms so whatever loony decided winters would be mild for ever probably got promoted to Head of Retail at BAA.

BAA that strategic asset we flogged off to Ferrovial. Kraft anyone?

Having been past LHR on Sunday, there was ONE active and visible snowplough for the whole of Terminal One.

[biddedout]

Well I know FRA has had its problems recently, but last week I taxied past thirty seriously large snow clearing vheicles lined up in two columns ready to roll. I cannot imagine airport UK has anything like that.

[El Grifo]

Same ****, same country :ugh:

Who took the "Great" out of Britain ?

Someone did !

[LessThanSte]

Why could they not just ask all those pilots sat around with nothing to do to start their engines for a few minutes, that'd surely clear loads of the snow?

Or send for as many shovels as you can find then ask those sat in the terminal if anyone minds helping out, im sure there will be plenty of volunteers.

It does seem that Heathrow have decided that the easiest way to get rid off all this pesky snow is to wait for it to melt and save the expense of using their equipment!

[LessThanSte]

Oh and also it appears that those in Westminster havnt grasped the idea of what a 1 in 20 year event actually means. Its not that there will be 1 event like it in 20 years, just that an event of this magnitude has a likelihood of happening in 20 years, but there is nothing to say that it couldnt happen every year. They seem to think it all means that 'oh, it snowed like buggery last year so it'll be fine for the next 10 years or so!'.

Share winter weather equipment (grit trucks, ploughs etc) with countrys in the southern hemisphere i say, cost is split 50:50 and every March/October we hire a big boat, stick all the equipment on it and ferry them to the country thats about to have a winter. Less storage costs, less purchase costs, economies of scale, all that. Maybe il send that into the Big Idea website!

[gordonroxburgh]

BAA has prevented Sky TV at least from reporting inside LHR and LGW today if reports are to be believed !!!

But the media get in anyway and tell the story how it is, not how some 20 something PR person will no dress sense and silly hair wants it to be told. (Did you notice rather than being at the airport, he was dispatched to the TV studios!)

Same happened when T5 opened, first few days were open house, then when it went ***-up the media were banished to the local cheep and nasty car park.

Remember folks LGW is not BAA owned and to give them credit they have had their runway basically open for the last 2 days. they have announced that they are committed to spending 8M to double their snow fleet.

Finally BAA sold Gatwick for £1.5Billion, shame some of the money was not invested in the operating infrastructure at their other airports.

[utis]

What about the might of power and efficiencies of laser? Laser technology has been mastered from medicine to thick metal cutting, from precision astrophysics to hi-tech weapons, thermonuclear reactors..

A frequency could be set only for snow molecules on couple lasers on mid-high masts next to runways to continuously scan runway surface and automatically adjusting power levels depending on snow intensity. This would do no damage to any other surfaces or materials as frequency would be specific and target only ice type molecules.

I.e. - google for patent "A system to remove ice formed on a surface, such as an airplane wing. Heat generative laser beam is directed upon a snow or ice-covered surface, thereby vaporizing the ice and snow formed thereupon. By translating the laser light generator along the frozen surface, vaporization of the snow and ice formed on the entire surface takes place."

I assume the same principle could be used for clearing fog around airport lets say 10miles radius..

A more powerful laser I assume could be used for disrupting hurricane cores?

If only worldwide industry would work as hard in putting more comfort and performance in industry as in naughty full-body scanner.. :yuk:

[Married a Canadian]

It’ll be interesting to compare and contrast YYZ’s performance with that of LHR, given the following TAF:

In my time here so far it has never closed due to the snow. Yes it gets more of it...but at least it seems to have a plan each winter...we get a winter ops briefing in the terminal long before the first signs of the white stuff.

[Dairyground]

What about the might of power and efficiencies of l@ser? l@ser technology has been mastered from medicine to thick metal cutting, from precision astrophysics to hi-tech weapons, thermonuclear reactors..

A frequency could be set only for snow molecules on couple l@sers on mid-high masts next to runways to continuously scan runway surface and automatically adjusting power levels depending on snow intensity. This would do no damage to any other surfaces or materials as frequency would be specific and target only ice type molecules.




The basic device is already widely deployed at a much smaller scale - the microwave oven that these days is present in almost every domestic and commercial kitchen. The major problem is that all living things are mostly water, so any stay energy, and there would be a lot arouind, from the runway cooker would rapidly cook anyone who got too close.

A better, and possibly equally infeasible, solution would be to put a roof over the stands. That would keep the snow off the wings and permit the ground handling staff and equipment to work unhindered.

In the current crisis, with incoming flights diverted to places such as Birmingham, Newcastle and Mancester that have good rail links, it should be feasible to take passengers, crew and even cleaners to the aircraft by train, rather than waiting for the snow to melt. Apart from third-rail electrics, the railway is much less susceptible to snow than airports of roads. Diesels are more weather resistant than overhead electrics, and steam locomotives could get through drifts several feet high. We don't have enough of them to make a difference anymore, but we do appear to have a number of Eurostar electrics standing idle at present. Why not use them to take the passengers to the planes?

[J.O.]

Re the YYZ experience, the airport authority's take is that a complete shutdown due to snow and icing, such as LHR has done, is not a viable option. They have worked very hard and invested large sums to prevent it from happening. Yes things slow down significantly when the going gets tough, but many flights still get through.

I've had the pleasure of seeing their snow clearing team in action up close and it's pretty impressive. They run a conga line of equipment and clear the centre 150 ft of a runway with one pass each way along the runway. The whole thing takes about 10 to 15 minutes.

[londonman]

Channel 4 had the CEO of BAA on last night. He had clearly been given some media training and came out with the same vacuous phrase four times.

John Snow pointed out that Ferrovial were rumoured to be short of money so how could they invest in better snowclearing. Listening to the reply, you could smell the BS from here.

Credit to LGW...they have got their act together.

[frangatang]

Ferrovial might be shyte but l think you will find BAA when state owned was shyte in winter as well!

[FlightCosting]

The longer that the terminals are full of passengers going nowhere, the more the retail outlets are making money. All BAA has to do is to let a few more into the terminal when those who have been there a few days have spent all their cash. A happy Christmas for somebody:bored:

About 40 years ago we fast taxied a viscount down 27L to clear the fog so that a 1-11 could position to CWL. Maybe BAA should get a few of the pensioned off Harriers to do a hover over the runways, that should do the trick.

[Right Engine]

BBC News - How Helsinki airport deals with snow and ice (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12042213)

[londonman]

Some have said that the comparison between Helsinki and LHR is invalid. I don't quite see why. Helsinki has fewer passengers and presumably less revenue and yet it copes far better than LHR. Why? Investment.

OK - it might have a third runway and I can see how that makes things easier but surely LHR could adopt a one runway operation (albeit at a seriously curtailed level of service) by clearing the other one?

LGW was castigated (quite understandably) the other day when they were closed down but my understanding is that they got their finger out and got some more snow clearing equipment.

[Groundbased]

For the first day or so I was pretty unimpressed with the media in their constant efforts to isolate a "lack of preparation" during what was clearly more snow more quickly than we have had for a long time.

However I am at a loss to understand why the second runway hasn't been cleared by now?

It certainly seems that the balance between infrastructure being there by the country for the country and it just being a profit centre has swung too far in the wrong direction.

An earlier poster mentioned using trains to get passengers to where the planes are. Can you imagine how that would go given the number of different private companies involved? It would be a car crash, but when there is no effective single control of such big elements of infrastructure you can't get them to interact like that.

[stormin norman]

Some serious questions need to be asked about the senior BA and BAA management with regard to LHR .With one runway down BA was assured by the BAA/Nats that they would get at least 12 departures away per hour.BA invested millions in a state of the art de-icing facility and de-icing Rigs at T5 so should have had no difficulty achieving this target.

Ever since the 747 came into service in the 70's its been known that a fully fuelled aircraft at low ambient temps on snow will be diffficult to move .Why were the aircraft not moved earlier and the stands cleared of snow and de-iced before repositioning on stand ?

BA had a very robust snow plan a few years back ,it seem the management eyes have been firmly off the ball.

4 days on and i'm embarrassed every time i switch the TV on.

[sky9]

Stormin Norman, I imagine the reason is that all the old experienced people have been pensioned off and their jobs taken by young whipper snappers who have never seen snow in their working lives and don't have the experience to know what works.

How many times do we see people having to relearn lessons from previous incidents? I would love to see the BAA Operations Manual on what to do when snow is forecast.

[FlightCosting]

BAA Traveller magazine (http://cde.cerosmedia.com/1Y4cd3dc5a47f99318.cde)page 66-67 has a piece about how prepared they are for the weather with their "68 strong fleet of de-icers, snow blowers, ploughs and tractors"

A total of 68 bits of equipment to clear 8 kilometres of runway and 200 stands.

Skavsta ( also Spanish owned) has around 30 bits of equipment for 2.3km of runway and 15 stands.

even taking into account the shortage of equipment, not being able to clear the second runway is baffling

[stormin norman]

'ploughs and tractors'

Its snow thay want to get rid of, not grow potatoes.

[fivegreenlight]

What really annoys me ( among many things:\) is during interviews with that BAA bloke nobody actually challanges him as to why one runway is STILL closed. He just side steps the question. Time to bring on Paxman...

[True Blue]

I have to say I have absolutely no sympathy with either BAA or ANY of the airlines. We are given to understand that Lhr works at about 98% capacity and carries what, maybe 20m more pax than it was designed for. So what happens, Lhr keep letting more flights in and airlines want to get more flights in. Look at the number of services that have been transferred from Lgw. All in the pursuit of profit. If it all works perfectly, then not too many serious problems, but there are still problems. When the smallest thing goes wrong, it all goes very badly wrong. Why, because working at almost 100% capacity allows for no room to try and make anything work if something goes wrong, it all falls apart and very fast. And so the extra profit they claim to make by flying from Lhr over say Lgw has just disappeared over the past few and next few days. The first thing that Lhr should be ordered to do is reduce to say 90% capacity to allow a little bit of wriggle room. If Lhr and the airlines had their way, they would have Lhr operating at 120% of capacity or any other figure. Nothing can work at 98% all the time and work well. We see the effects of this all the time, snow, fog etc. I often wonder why H & S has nothing to say about the overcrowding at Lhr. Would they allow it elsewhere, apart from Lhr, trains and underground.

I have great pity for all the poor people stuck there, many will have xmas and other plans ruined.

TB

[HZ123]

I have been stuck allbeit at DUS since Saturday and there are numbers of people since Friday. Today once again there is little infomation other than come back tomorrow.

From a customer perspective it is all unacceptable and I agree why do they not know when the second rrunway is to open, why was that BA made the statement -of its closure not BAA.

Let us face it the UK is poorly served in most forms of public transport and with more cuts nothing is going to improve.

[c52]

I have little doubt that BAA's evidence to the Government enquiry will state that with a third runway, none of this would have happened.

[throw a dyce]

Yes they would have 2 runways blocked with snow instead of 1.:hmm:

[Skipness One Echo]

Stormin Norman, I imagine the reason is that all the old experienced people have been pensioned off and their jobs taken by young whipper snappers who have never seen snow in their working lives and don't have the experience to know what works.

Profits came from retail, winters got warmer, the assumption was made this was the norm, forever.....management took a short term profits view and the old skills were lost as the focus shifted from operations to shopping. Now in fairness BAA are trying to turn back with a lot of money being invested into LHR but they're learning the hard way as they have to reinvent the wheel. The fact that Andrew Teacher is the public face of BAA in the worst crisis since well, April frankly, says a lot of how prepared they actually were.

Our ability as a nation to influence events at LHR is also less than it was as we sold off a strategic national asset to a Spanish firm drowning in debt.

Short term profit versus long term strategy. What good is sacking the Transport Secretary going to do? He won't know the job for another six months and bringing in someone else will push that learning curve further back. Our system is broken and we keep saying "Lessons have been learned" except the evidence suggests that often that is merely a platitude.

I'm not moaning as frankly we're all bang at it in the UK. We reap what we sow. All of us. Hands up who's got their pension sorted? *cough* Public sector put your hands down please!

* Having re-read that I am aware it's sounding a little bit Old Testament.

[Moldiold2]

Ok so can someone tell me exactly WIHIH? Is it lack of equipment, lack of de-icer, lack of trained apron personnel or just plain greed to pay 'top people' bonuses rather than on infrastructure. Years ago BAA stood for Build Another Arcade now that philosophy is comming back to bite them - good job we dont try and hold the Winter Olympics here. Still if we did it might mean our athletes were the only ones who would be competing!
I just feel sorry for the paying customers and poor front desk staff who have to face them but are not backed up by 'senior management' or given procedures for these situations. PPPMPP. :sad:
By the way I remember the winter of '63 when deep snow blanketed the whole country from Christmas till March and there was none of the chaos we have today.

[JamesT73J]

Profits came from retail, winters got warmer, the assumption was made this was the norm, forever.....management took a short term profits view and the old skills were lost as the focus shifted from operations to shopping. Now in fairness BAA are trying to turn back with a lot of money being invested into LHR but they're learning the hard way as they have to reinvent the wheel. The fact that Andrew Teacher is the public face of BAA in the worst crisis since well, April frankly, says a lot of how prepared they actually were.

Our ability as a nation to influence events at LHR is also less than it was as we sold off a strategic national asset to a Spanish firm drowning in debt.

Short term profit versus long term strategy. What good is sacking the Transport Secretary going to do? He won't know the job for another six months and bringing in someone else will push that learning curve further back. Our system is broken and we keep saying "Lessons have been learned" except the evidence suggests that often that is merely a platitude.

I'm not moaning as frankly we're all bang at it in the UK. We reap what we sow. All of us. Hands up who's got their pension sorted? *cough* Public sector put your hands down please!

Pretty much on the money, actually.

[DCS99]

Seems a fairly new Executive Committee:

BAA: Executive Committee (http://www.baa.com/portal/page/About/BAA+Airports%5EAbout+BAA%5EWho+we+are%5EOur+management%5EExe cutive+Committee/9fc46b0d04eee110VgnVCM10000036821c0a____/448c6a4c7f1b0010VgnVCM200000357e120a____/%20BAA)

Apart from Terry Morgan, I see no Airport or Airline experience, albeit Matthews was head of Engineering whilst I was at BA.

[FlightCosting]

Sky News had an interview with Mathews.

Seems they did nothing at first because the met Office said more snow, which did not happen but now they are going to clear ALL the stands before they start on the second runway.

The PBS machines that they use for the runways are no good for use on the stands so it must be that they do not have the staff and the drivers of the runway clearing equipment are out with the shovels n the stands.

What a shower, couldn't organise a pi$$ up in a brewery.

Just pleased I decided to stay in Sweden for Christmas 6ft of snow and -18 but no problems anywhere.

[JamesT73J]

The thing that really worries me, is that people will accept it. "Oh well, never mind. That's just the way it is, isn't it?" Except it doesn't have to be. The whole of Europe is laughing at Britain, and that's okay. That makes me a bit downcast.

[Married a Canadian]

The whole of Europe is laughing at Britain, and that's okay

I wouldn't worry too much about that given the problems that AMS, CDG and FRA have had.

I do agree though that it has reached a point where something has to be done...and the same excuse can't be brought out EVERY time it snows. I get tired of hearing how "unique" Heathrow is with the complexities of snow clearing. It seems to be so unique that they can't figure out how to clear the place and keep it moving in the winter.

[WHBM]

For those who whinge on about how comparisons with never-closed Helsinki Vantaa airport are invalid because Heathrow is such a large airport, some statistics for you, as many won't believe that, in world terms, Heathrow is actually quite a small place.

Total land area :

Helsinki - 1,700 acres
Heathrow - 1,227 acres

Helsinki 38% larger land area

...

Total runway length :

Helsinki (3 runways) - 9,401 metres
Heathrow (2 runways) - 7,561 metres

Helsinki 24% more runway distance to clear.

...

I suppose there's one more statistic.

Master snow-handling plans :

Helsinki - 1
Heathrow - 0

[sky9]

WHBM
Are you saying that LHR doesn't have a snow plan? I wonder what Phillip Hammond thinks of that.

[411A]

Don'y worry, there's more snow on the way....there is a huge storm over California at the moment, that has so far dropped 12 feet of snow on the SierraNavada mountains, and...the jet stream is all lined up to bring this monster to the UK in about 10 days, perhaps less.
Better get more shovels...:}

[HZ123]

We will drink our way out of it !

[WHBM]

WHBM
Are you saying that LHR doesn't have a snow plan? I wonder what Phillip Hammond thinks of that.
Philip Hammond has to be the most know-nothing Transport Secretary since - well, since Nicholas Ridley. And I can assure you there have been some close contenders.

Regarding the snow plan, it is apparent from posts here and elsewhere that operations have been very much on the basis of making-it-up-as-we-are-going-along. Regarding Mathews' statement that they didn't crack on with snow clearance straight away because they thought there might be a bit more to come, words fail me - as they will fail anyone else who has been professionally involved in snow clearance. I guess these people have spent so long focused only on cost reduction they cannot see anything else.

[FlightCosting]

Currently the BAA web site says

Tuesday 21 December - updated at 12:30

Heathrow is operating around one third of a normal flight schedule until 06:00 on Thursday 23 December. Please check the live flight information board below which shows the current status of each flight. If the flight status shows ‘contact airline’, your flight will not be operating today.
But according to the BBC

Prime Minister David Cameron says he is "frustrated" over the lengthy delays to air travel caused by snow at Heathrow Airport during the weekend. He said cabinet had discussed the widespread travel chaos "extensively" on Tuesday, as thousands of passengers remain stranded across the UK.
He said the second runway at Heathrow would be open within hours.
I wonder if the BAA has been told that the second runway will be open shortly?

Edit: it is also reported that BAA has refused the help of the army to clear the snow:(

[WHBM]

The latest is that the government has offered military assistance to Heathrow - and been turned down.

BBC News - Snow delays: Cameron 'frustrated' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12053234)

"Transport Secretary Philip Hammond said: "We've said if they need additional manpower, a bit of muscle to clear snow we can provide them with troops and lorries to do that.
"They're telling me at the moment they have all the muscle they need."

We'll gloss over for now the fact that if a situation like this happened in Russia, the military would be mobilised and down there within hours instead of many days.

While squaddies may not have a lot of experience with the kit, I'm sure the Air Force has plenty, and their own bases will have been cleared pronto.

Why did BAA turn the offer down ? Was it just because it wouldn't look good on Mathews' CV ?

[Skipness One Echo]

From the same source

Heathrow has been criticised for the length of time it took to clear tonnes of snow from runways and plane stands after a blizzard on Saturday dumped 5 inches in one hour.

Mr Cameron said: "Even BAA's harshest critics have conceded that given the amount of snow that has fallen, extensive disruption is understandable.

Cleverly put. What he's avoiding saying is that the true picture was actually five inches since Saturday. The second part is simply laughable. This is very British, all the politicians furiously pulling the levers of power only to realise they were connected up years ago and no one has a wiring diagram.

[FlightCosting]

While squaddies may not have a lot of experience with the kit, I'm sure the Air Force has plenty, and their own bases will have been cleared pronto.

Good point I'm sure the RAF did not send out a message to all potential enemy's saying

Dear--- Due to adverse weather our runway is closed and if you decided to launch an attack in the next 48 hours we would not be able to respond, so please do not attack us until Friday at the earliest:uhoh:

[mystic_meg]

No, no, no and again no. Don't you people get it? "lessons will be learnt," many "management" meetings will take place, lots of decisions will be made, along with yet another grovelling, going-through-the-motions apology being issued, and things will slowly but surely get back to some sort of normality. Compensation? Resignations? please be serious, these people, (and many like them in the modern day UK) will issue platitude after patronising platitude and promise investment upon investment to ensure that it "doesn't happen again." Wind the clock forward until the next similar event (maybe 12 months time, maybe less,) and f*ck-all will have changed, of that you can be certain. :mad::ugh:
If 27L isn't open later today as promised, then "Community Dave" should order the Army in, end of.

[I'm Off!]

And why should the 'army' (for army read HM Forces) be ordered in to bail out a profit making foreign company? Hitting these people in their profit, dividend and wallet is the only language they understand. All they need to do is visit a cold foreign airport (Helsinki, Moscow, Calgary), look at their snow plan and equipment, and copy it. It is not rocket science, and although it costs money they should be financially compelled to make the investment, because they should be made to reimburse the airlines for all of their delays/cancellations/inconvenience and expense, because the airport operator were unable to achieve what they are required to achieve - keeping the airport operating.

Using an already overworked HM Forces every time a private company fails to make a contingency plan and underinvests is not the answer, it will merely encourage them to continue to underinvest on the basis that the manpower is available to bail them out.

[sky9]

Interesting interview with David Quarmby on the BBC today. He suggested that the LHR snow plan should be revisited by the CAA.

[FlyingFinancier]

Hysterical reactions about the Government selling UK infrastructure to debt-strapped Spanish companies rather miss the point - BAA was privatised a generation ago and the then government could not prevent the take-private by Ferrovial in 2006, even though it was indeed obvious at the time that the acquisition was 'extremely highly-leveraged' (ahem) and not neccessarily bringing any technical or operational added-value.

Privatisation itself certainly doesn't neccesarily result in worse performance of infrastructure (for the counter-factual think of massive public sector deficits world-wide inhibiting investment, traditionally woeful mis-management of public sector investment or appalling performance of publicly-owned utilities pre-privatisation in many cases). There are good and bad public and privately-owned airports across Europe. The more relevant point is that extreme failures of operational performance (and balance sheet structuring) could have formed part of regulatory licence conditions but unfortunately BAA's original privatisation effectively over-looked this point (NATS, privatised later, is in a different regulatory position).

And guess what - there is currently a review of airport regulation underway in the UK. It will be interesting to see how this plays out now... but the points earlier are well made as the government could well be caught between an incoherent policy on airport development (particularly runway construction) and demanding better operational performance of transport infrastructure.

[Max Angle]

Perhaps it has been mentioned in the last 5 pages but the reason the Southerly runway has been shut at LHR is because they ran out of de-icing fluid for it and its only opened now because the PM has made 100,000 litres of fluid from military stores available. National embarrassment doesn't begin to describe it.

[throw a dyce]

Just watch;Millets will open branches in the BAA shopping malls for the next time a wee bit of snow drifts over poor old Eefrow.Get your tents,space blankets,and primus stoves here.100's of thousands stuck.Could make a fortune.:D

[Whalerider]

As far as I am concerned there is a major factor involved. LHR is run by BAA = Bureau Against Aviation, an outfit which likes to have shopping malls with a runway attached. Its management have very little experience / knowlege of aviation !

I am talking as someone who used to work with them.

I know of an excellent Ops Manager with excellent experience. When he applied for Ops job at BAA was told "you will have to work in security and after 2 years apply for Ops".

I know of a woman who speaks five languages, and who applied for a vacancy at Airport Information Desk - she didn't even get a reply !

Look at the improvements made, and being made at LGW since BAA sold the airport off.

BAA = Bureau Against Aviation

[Suzeman]

Any views on the fact that Urea can no longer be used for environmental reasons due to EU laws- I think for the last couple of years?

This used to melt ice almost instantly and was used fo many years at UK airports. I'm sure we wouldn't be in this pickle at LHR and other UK/EU airports if it still could be used. I'm told the alternatives are not as effective.

Suzeman

[keeprighton1974]

411A Don'y worry, there's more snow on the way....there is a huge storm over California at the moment, that has so far dropped 12 feet of snow on the SierraNavada mountains, and...the jet stream is all lined up to bring this monster to the UK in about 10 days, perhaps less.
Better get more shovels...

I see that your Meteorological knowledge is on a par with your aviation knowledge.

The jet stream is currently blocked (i.e. deflected) which is allowing Arctic conditions to arrive from the North. Maybe you should come over to Euroland for proper Met training?

[SammySu]

Please don't think the RAF have any spare snow clearing capability - the only places that have it are the QRA stations and MEDAs - the rest have to wait for it to thaw or shovel it by hand.

All capability ditched several years ago to save money.

This country has gone to the dogs.

Back to LHR, aside from the lack of rapid snow clearing capability, the treatment of passengers has been at best shameful. Who in the world would want to use the UK as a hub when our largest and most prestigious airport consists of a marquee, kids and babies outside in the cold, people of all ages and backgrounds camping on the floor for 4 days and the Sally Army giving out tea and space blankets.

It doesn't need a board resignation, it needs a public inquiry, the whole business is a disgrace on this once great industry.

[Usignuolo]

Matthews is quoted as saying he had not seen snow like it ever before at Heathrow, not in his lifetime.

According to the Met Office there was around 3.5inches snow at Heathrow on Saturday. He must have lived a very sheltered life then.

I live 5 miles west of the airport and can confirm that we too had around 3-4 inches of snow on saturday.

Hello, on 2 February 2009, we woke to find 8inches of snow had fallen overnight, including I assume at Heathrow. Perhaps Mr Matthews was abroad at the time. Does anyone recall what happened to the flights on that day?

Presumably no one is responsible for telling anyone else what is going on and that includes the passengers?

[kaikohe76]

Am I right to understand, that David Cameron offered the Heathrow management the use of Military personnel to assist with snow clearing & other associated tasks?
I also understand, that this offer was declined & rejected by Heathrow management.
What I can't understand, is that Mr Cameron actually made an offer, would it not have been better, to send the troops in anyway, whether Heathrow management liked it or not?

[WHBM]

Hello, on 2 February 2009, we woke to find 8inches of snow had fallen overnight, including I assume at Heathrow. Perhaps Mr Matthews was abroad at the time. Does anyone recall what happened to the flights on that day?

Monday 2 Feb 2009, Heathrow had 399 movements (normally around 1,250, so about a third). 9L closed until 1800. 9R operated throughout apart from an interval 0830-1030. I see from my own e-mails on that day that it snowed in central London all day, not just for a few hours. In fact I took photographs of my own garden, I see it was far worse than this recent one. Next day, 3 Feb, Heathrow had 1,120 movements, so getting back to normal.

[FlightCosting]

A BBC report (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12049482) sheds some more light on what is happening at LHR and why LGW is doing better.

Earlier this year, BAA published an investment programme of £5.1bn for Heathrow over five years, of which £500,000 was invested in snow and ice-fighting technology this year, with another £3m planned for the next four years.
By comparison, reports suggest that Gatwick Airport, which is half the size of Heathrow and was sold by BAA last year, spent £1m on snow and ice this year and plans to spend another £7m next year.
Heathrow's "snow fleet" is made up of 69 vehicles; Gatwick's is a reported 150.


Not surprising that with twice the size and half the equipment that LHR can not cope.

Mind you BAA have found one supporter in the form of 'Aviation Expert'? David Learmount,

"Even if we did throw dollars at it, our weather is different to the weather that the Scandinavians get. The equipment that they use would not win against the kind of weather that we had,"
Planet Earth to David Learmont
Snow is snow I can assure him that the white stuff that I have been shovelling from my driveway is the same as that that fell on LHR just that I had over a foot to clear as did NYO and ARN

[Bus429]

I'm sceptical of any claim - usually made by those caught out, not performing or the press - that this is the worst weather since 1910, 1210 or 'since records were kept'. Fact is fact: the UK's short-termism - manifested by managers in industry, government and the military - costs the country in the long-term (or even sooner). It boils down to crap management; telling that LGW is doing better than LHR (I did some research into some aspects of ground handling at several airports in the UK earlier this year: LGW was by far the most cooperative and open of all those I visited).
Still, the boss at BAA will get a bonus this year; one trusts it will be for financial performance rather than customer service.

[FlightCosting]

BUS429 SAIDStill, the boss at BAA will get a bonus this year; one trusts it will be for financial performance rather than customer service.

I suppose he deserves it for loosing only £200 million in the first nine months:hmm:

[Atcham Tower]

Suzeman, I believe that the use of urea was banned for environmental reasons although why crystallised cattle pee should have a detrimental effect compared to chemical brews, I have no idea.
Back in the 1990s, I well remember an ops officer coming up on the ground frequency at Liverpool when he was telling us his plans for the runway before the forecast snow arrived. In strong scouse accent: "We're gonna welly it with urea!"

[londonman]

Leaving aside the ineptitude and lack of preparedness for snow by BAA, there is no excuse for not having a business continuity plan to cater for all the passengers stranded.

[WHBM]

Who would rather BAA rushed, did a bad job and a accident occured injuring or killing passengers, crew, ground staff or neighbours?
Don't be ridiculous, all the rest of the airports elsewhere which have had far more snow than Heathrow's in recent days, and handled it properly, managed to do so without such incidents either.

[WHBM]

The European network isn't disrupted significantly if Helsinki were to close
But It Never Does. How many times do we have to say this.

OK, if you ask them they will say (with a smile) that there was one time in 2003 when they had to close - for 30 minutes !

because it's not a major hub
I guess you've never been there. It's a surprisingly large and busy place. And certainly a hub. Notably full of Asian passengers transferring on to Europe. It has a very pleasant restaurant on an upper mezzanine in departures from where you can look out and see how to handle airfield ops in winter. Do go and have a look.

[Avionker]

An Alternative 12 days of Christmas?

1st. LHRs snow fleet is larger than Gatwicks....

Do you have a public source for this? I accept that the BBC report maybe wrong, but it would be nice to see evidence of this.

2nd. LHR only needed to compliment its current fleet with £500K, rather than LGW completely updating their whole fleet.

Why was this? LGW was, until recently, owned by BAA. Had they failed to invest sufficiently in updating and maintaining snow clearing equipment? Or have the new owners of LGW set a higher standard than that accepted by BAA?

3rd. Gatwick has closed more often and for longer than LHR this year.... they have had more snow overall.

More snow, more closures is logical. Have they stayed close for excessively long periods though?


4th. All airfields affected by this level of snow have closed and remained closed until it was safe to reopen.

And quite rightly so. The contention is that LHR has remained closed for too long, due to lack of snow clearing capability and lack of proper planning. No one would argue that operations should be suspended if conditions are unsafe.


5th. BAA is a commercial organisation... constrained by political regulation capping profits and driving availability unrealistically high... hence almost at full capacity, with capital investment prioritised to improve volume rather than contingency.

Well stop paying dividends and re-invest that money in vital equipment.


6th. The airlines are responsible for their own operation.... contracting; dispatch, towing, loading, baggage handling, check-in, engineering and anti-icing aircraft and looking after their customers - the passengers.

Accepted by most I think.


7th. BAA treats everyone as a customer, so when the airline ignores or fails to provide for its passengers they step in to help with their own contingency plans.

Can you give an example?

8th. Why should the Government provide assitance... did they offer the same to Gatwick when they snow closed? BAA is a commercial organisation, albeit over-regulated.

Ask that question to the passengers at LHR.

9th. What contingencies did the airlines put in place to operate when the airfield is closed? How did they look after their customers?

They cannot operate from or to a closed airfield. Therein lies the problem. How well they looked after their pax will vary from operator to operator I imagine. Another question is what information was given to the airlines by BAA?


10th. What assistance did the airlines provide to BAA to help snow clear around their aircraft or on stands?

Why should they help? The airlines are BAA's customers after all. They pay for the "privilege" of operating from LHR, not to do BAA's job for them. Would you offer to cook your own meal in a restaurant? Would you offer to clean your own room in an hotel? Don't you think the airlines have enough to do already dealing with all the delays and cancellations?

11th. Whats with berating individuals.... a companies failing, is a companies failing... not just the CEOs. Colins not broad enough to do any real damage with a shovel.

I'm not personally doing that but I can understand why people do. If a company fails to deliver there is always a reason for it. CEO's are ultimately responsible for the running of the company, ergo, they are responsible for success or failure are they not?

12th. Who would rather BAA rushed, did a bad job and a accident occured injuring or killing passengers, crew, ground staff or neighbours?

No one obviously.

Merry Christmas.

[sky9]

Isn't it about time someone recognised that airports such as LHR and LGW are not just commercial enterprises but also a fundamental part of the economy of the UK.

The airport should plan for and be legally required to have sufficient snow clearing equipment and materials available to keep the airport open in the most severe of winter weather. The fact that it would be little used in 9 out of 10 years is irrelevant.

It is a fact that closing an airport actually makes operating more difficult as aircraft remain on stands causing additional problems in clearing them. They must work on keeping runways, taxiways and stands open by having the equipment available to keep the snow at manageable levels.

We have all flown into airports such as Munich and Zürich where conditions are worse than that experienced on the day at LHR yet the airports remained open. The reality is that simply remaining open and aircraft arriving and departing does much to reduce the amount of snow on the movement areas.

Possibly the biggest mistake was BA announcing that they were cancelling their flights on Saturday, it they hadn't it would have forced BAA to keep their clearing efforts at full strength. It would also have vacated stands and allowed them to be cleared.

[pontifex]

I agree that the fiascos at our airports and on our rail network are a national embarassment. However, the excuse "the wrong kind of snow" does have some validity. We hear much about Calgary, Helsinki and Zurich and their snow clearing efficiencies, but their temperatures are very much lower than we get. I trained near Calgary (Red Deer). When it snowed it was either blown off the runway or just rolled and we flew off it. At very low temperatures rolled snow has most of the properties of concrete and cold snow is powdery and easily blown. The trouble is our snow is aways fairly close to zero, it takes very little pressure to turn it to liquid and subsequently refreeze and stick to the surface as ice, and at UK temperatures the snow is normally wet and blowing is not an option. I don't know the answer but I thought it was only fair to point out that, just because our temperatures don't go that low, we must be incompetent is just not true; it is actually the reverse.

[WHBM]

...the excuse "the wrong kind of snow" does have some validity. We hear much about Calgary, Helsinki and Zurich and their snow clearing efficiencies, but their temperatures are very much lower than we get.
This is yet another Urban Myth for me to overcome. Yes, at these places the nadir is well below what might be experienced in Britain, accompanied by dry, powdery snow (ie no good for snowballs). But in the shoulders of the winter, in November-December, or in March, the temperatures are very much what we currently have in London - just the quantities of "British style" saturated snow are much more than we get.

[FlightCosting]

Mr Matthews, chief executive of Heathrow operator BAA, said: "We've had unacceptable conditions for passengers in the last few days. I'm responsible and I've decided not to take my bonus for 2010."

Would have been better to buy a couple of snow ploughs

Re the old excuse of "The wrong type of snow" this is crap and just an excuse. Last week in Southern Sweden a low came in, the temperature rose to around zero and around 20cm of snow came down - wet and heavy. Then the temperature dropped to -15 and it froze solid but the airports remained open as did the roads.

Re Helsinki not being a hub tell that to DHL and their overnight operations for Nokia

[Miroku]

And why should the 'army' (for army read HM Forces) be ordered in to bail out a profit making foreign company?


If they (BAA) act as incompetently as this then send them in with an appropriate invoice. A big one!

[Married a Canadian]

Mech assasin...your posts are reasoned...but do trend towards that "Heathrow is more complex than anywhere else" line

infrastructure as commercially and nationally complex and important as LHR

If this is indeed the case then surely a snow clearing plan for somewhere this stategically important and "complicated on the ground" should show a little bit more nous than the one you listed.
People don't like comparisons but you are going to get them because the Chicagos, New Yorks and Toronto's are as complex with similar movements...and yet are equipped to deal with the problem and do not CLOSE.
With an efficient plan in place LHR should never have to close. I hope no one with any common sense would advocate operating at near capacity in snow conditions...but you can still run a limited operation.
So when the weather forecast for Saturday was in the pipeline did the airlines or the BAA think...perhaps we better put a ground delay in, limit the flights, give ourselves a chance to move?....or did they operate at the 98% capacity figure that has been mentioned on this topic?
If it is the latter...then there is no chance of any success for snow clearance and the same thing will happen time after time...and the same line about Heathrow's complexties will be trotted out.

I don't even want to get into the discussions about "different snow" and "cold temperatures" because basically what the BAA and the airlines are saying is that their "plan" only covers one type of situation or contaminant.

Why should this be a topic whenever it snows. There are enough airports around the world that could provide help, planning, advice on what to do....yet either the airport/airlines brass don't listen or think that their airport is "unique".

[Wiggly Bob]

Quote:
11th. Whats with berating individuals.... a companies failing, is a companies failing... not just the CEOs. Colins not broad enough to do any real damage with a shovel.

Because as CEO of this shower of Sh+te he's paid a darn site more than you or I to take responsibility for his (lack of) actions! :ugh:

[MagicTiger]

A couple of points, first the losses due to the closure do they outweigh the cost of the investment required to get proper equipment and expertise to be able to keep Heathrow operative in such conditions?

However another probably less thought over issue, is the infrastructure surrounding the airports operations, if all other surrounding transport is brought to a standstill, how will crew, and other airport workforce be able to go to and from the airport? Within reasonable time limits, this is a secondary issue of the whole problem.

Uk needs to have complete contingency to deal with these kind of issues, as it seems they will becoming more and more frequent in the future.
It is no good if you can keep the runways, taxi ways and aprons clear, if you do not have staff being able to get to and from the airport due to complete break down in the transport network.

The fact is that there was pretty good forecasts of what was going to happen, yet nothing was prepared to meet the events that occurred. I previously lived in Norway, and if such events would cripple the nation, you might as well have closed down the country for 4 months of the year, and it would have been complete economical meltdown.

Privaticing the airport operations was the first major mistake, as the revenue made from the airport operations would have sustained the investment to get the equipment required and the training required of workforce to know what they should do in these events. However a profit driven BAA, will look at it as an acceptable loss, unless they are punished for breach of contract for not being able to keep the airport fully operational.
I do find it laughable to such conditions have created such chaos.
I personally was surprised by National Express, who had suspend all their buses from 1Pm on Saturday, I came from Stansted in the afternoon, and was told no buses by them available, while other companies was still driving from Stansted into London.

This I feel is unacceptable, as the roads was drivable on this stretch, as I took the bus from another company into Victoria.

Simple precautions that people in general can make are getting all season tires, they are not perfect for winter, but are much better than the normal tired they driving around with now.#
Secondly people in Scandinavia have courses in how to drive on winter roads and icy conditions, people in the UK are like "babies" learning to walk, and not even having some common sense of how dangerous these conditions really are unless you have some experience and the right equipment on your car.
I was astonished to see who people was racing past on icy slush/snow/mud - probably not being aware of that if they touched their brakes they would end up in the barrier of the road if lucky!!!

Now I am not sure how London can become standstill with few inches of snow, lack of experience, and refusal to learn are the main reasons!

[FlightCosting]

MagicTiger said
Secondly people in Scandinavia have courses in how to drive on winter roads and icy conditions, people in the UK are like "babies" learning to walk, and not even having some common sense of how dangerous these conditions really are unless you have some experience and the right equipment on your car.

Here in Sweden not only are winter tyres mandatory from December to March, you must spend a day on the skid pan and pass the skid test before you can get a licence.

[sky9]

Interesting article in today's Telegraph quoting Lufthansa as not amused. Apparently airlines offer of staff to clear stands was turned down on Health and Safety issues.

[stormin norman]

Not only am i surprised Colin Matthews has given up his bonus,i'm more suprised he got a bonus in the first place-for what ?

[Miroku]

Probably for improving profitability. Good job he didn't dash out and buy more snow ploughs, it might have affected his bonus!

[Fargoo]

Not only am i surprised Colin Matthews has given up his bonus,i'm more suprised he got a bonus in the first place-for what ?

For making the shareholders lots and lots of money. Shame his bonus isn't purely linked to customer (airlines and passengers) satisfaction.

[emaint2003]

Unfortunately more and more of our aviation companies are being run by people with no aviation background. The CEO should have been fired for ineptitude however he will leave shortly with a huge package and another muppet from FMCG or an MBA will be appointed.

[Shell Management]

The inability to run a resilient business should result in more than loss of bonus.

[sky9]

Ask Tony Haywood. And he wasn't directly involved in the fiasco