The Snow Delay Thread(formerly:Why don't they let them off?)

[charliegolf]

Just heard the news that pax were 'held' on a plane for hours and hours at the airport. No food or drinks, and they didn't go anywhere. What possible reason can there be for this?

CG

[ray cosmic]

ehm, nowhere else to go?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

cg, imagine disembarking 300+ passengers in to the terminal. They will wander off despite being asked not to. Toilets, food, shops etc..

Now you get the go, slot in 20 minutes, if you miss it it'll be another 10 hours before you get another chance.

Can we have our passengers back please? Most of them you can, we've lost a few. Bugger, better get their bags off then, they won't be happy. Can't find the bags or the passengers in time. Slot missed. Another 10 hour wait. Oh and we need the stand so we need to reposition you to a remote one miles away.

That's one reason, don't know about this particular occasion though.

[TightSlot]

I've moved and edited this thread to allow those of you who need to, to comment on the ongoing problems at various UK airports.

It is pretty clear that certain airlines and certain airport owners have not missed the opportunity to miss an opportunity, again.

[Piltdown Man]

On first glance, sitting for four hours and going nowhere does appear to be excessive. But you need the full story. However, when things go a bit awry at UK airports there are too many who use the "Health and Safety" opt-out for doing nothing. Like not putting facilities in place for allowing passengers to diembark. The shrewd bastards who make these decisions wizz off to an office with an ex-directory number so you are unable to negotiate with them after they have done so. Via intermediaries, they also try to tell you that you if you let people off your aircraft, you will be committing an offence (Oh! I'm really scared). This leaves us in a bit of a quandary. My current aircraft doesn't have steps so do I blow slides and ground the aircraft to let people off or do I try shouting at someone? Unfortunately, the poor sods who you end up talking with - ATC/Handling Agent doesn't have the authority to demand steps are taken to your plane. So my call then...

The worst I have to put up with so far is 2hr 30mins as there was (quite reasonably) a ban on ground handling due to a collection of VERY large thunderstorms in the immediate vicinity. So, there was no way to get from the aircraft to the terminal. However, there was plenty of food and drink and the toilets were empty. On every other occasion, I have had airstairs and just let the passengers off. Once an idiot tried to tell my passengers to go back to the plane, but he decided that he'd keep quiet when a someone grabbed his throat... That was a beautiful sight.

Fortunately, I've not been in this position for four hours, but you can rest assured that I would be dong all I could to make sure that you would not be on the plane longer for than you needed to be. And if you are kept on a plane, I reckon you ask as nicely as possible who is responsible and take legal action against them. Nothing gets these halfwits attention quite like a writ!

PM

[Rwy in Sight]

The problem arises with lo-cos who will despite a long delay will provide no free food or coffee/water. Personally I would very much spent any delay abroad an aircraft -on a full service service carrier rather on a crowded terminal.

Rwy in Sight

[L337]

The lo-cos still have a duty of care. One day someone is going to realise that and sue them into the ground.

[NWA SLF]

My Air Canada 767 in Toronto headed out for de-icing in heavy snow. Then lightning was spotted in the area (yes, a thundersnow) so de-icing was not allowed. We waited out the lightning, but when it was over we no longer had enough fuel to make it to our destination (Paris) and by that time, all of the gates were full. We parked on the tarmac and they fed us, gave us drinks, and showed movies. Finally they were able to clear a plane away from a gate (of course by that time the airport was closed) and we left the comfort of the plane for the hard floor of the terminal. Hotel shuttle buses could not make it. I spent 6 hours on a quite comfortable plane followed by 18 miserable hours in the terminal. If there had not been heat and working lavatories on the plane I may have had a different opinion but I found waiting out a storm on a plane, especially one prepared for an intercontinental flight, is much better than waiting it out in a terminal.

[Icare9]

The basic problem seems to be that there is no cohesive contingency plan to cater for a severe situation, at ANY airport. Be it snow, volcanic ash etc etc, aircraft and airports just seem to behave like headless chickens with no one acting to a sensible strategy. OK, so you have flights cancelled.... so what do you do with the passengers and aircraft that are stuck at each airport? You'll have more passengers arriving that haven't heard about the delay, or can't reach the airport... You have hotels which the supposed "departing" passengers have left, expecting to fly, plus family saying goodbye or waiting for them to arrive.
Once the airport is closed, each airline affected (and staff from those that aren't) should be available to complete Contact Cards with a mobile or email, so that they can be contacted as soon as things start to clear. In fact, why not add these fields to the Booking website, so the airline can rapidly contact passengers to advise of delay and to await further contact.
On a recent lo co flight to Spain, Gatwick had suffered heavy snow, ice, fog and then ATC strike immediately prior to my flight, which was very early the day after the strike ended. Considering there had been 4 days of interruption, I had no idea whether the aircraft for my flight would be at Gatwick or at some other location, such as Stansted.
I tried contacting to say that IF the aircraft had been diverted to Stansted, I'd prefer to go there direct rather than have Mrs drive on possibly ice and snow covered roads to Gatwick only to find that the passengers being bussed to Stansted....or wherever.... I simply got acknowledgement emails suggesting I find the answer on their FAQ list.... It didn't cater for the question I was asking but couldn't get an answer.
That was a miniscule frustration compared to what some passengers have had to endue, but there seems to be a need for proper contingency planning by ALL to ensure that passengers at least have information.
I even packed a sleeping bag in case previous delayed passengers were being given priority but in the event had no problems. Whether that was because the previous flights were low capacity, so one flight took them all, I don't know, but with everything else in the aviation world being so highly scrutinised, I'm surprised that no arrangements seem in place.

[radeng]

I suspect the 'reasoning' is that 'It doesn't happen very often. So we don't need to make any special arrangements, we should have some good bullsh*t lies to tell - and 'security' is the easiest. If we had to arrange to be able to get people to deal with the problem, we'd have to pay them overtime, and that costs money, so we go away and leave them the pax to it. So it's tough on the aircrew as well, but we don't have much respect for them anyway - they're only glorified bus drivers, and we're managers'. There's the same attitude from airport management and we see the results.

[wiggy]

I reckon that sums it up pretty neatly.

In order to shift this stuff ( snow) you need people and kit ( costs money) and you need the will to use it when the snow starts falling ( means the willingness to accept some risk).

But instead some in the UK plc have convinced themselves that the road to nivana is to cut the headcount and compensate by using "smarter management" ...

[call100]

It's also a fact that the majority of Pilots don't have a clue either when it comes to snow ops at an airport. So when they vent their frustrations on here and blame everyone and his dog I wouldn't take it as gospel..;)
Everyone thinks it's easy and straight forward....It's not and everything is done to open asap. The airport is losing money while they are closed, it's not in their interest either to not open. Go tell the guys digging planes out of the snow by hand that they are not doing enough.
It's true that a rethink has to be done about the investment in snow equipment. If this is to become the standard British Winter then all the dynamics change. If it's not then it would be money sat around for no gain. Airports need to think about manpower as well. Pointless having enough snow vehicles but no one to drive them....Airlines need to start paying more, it's no good beating down the fees then moaning when there is not enough equipment or manpower because the airport has had to cut back.
At the end of the day this is freak weather in the UK. (So far):eek:

[radeng]

Plus PAX have to stop expecting super cheap flights but high level service. Although according to the BBC today, BAA made 1 billion profit last eyar.....

[PAXboy]

According to The Independent, the UK Met Office is stating that this is likely to be the coldest winter since records began in 1910.

It is a well known calculation for any organisation that you have to decide your level of risk. Do you prepare for the worst storm/monsoon/drought/snow/etc expected in 20 years? 30? This looks like being a contender for the 100 year winter. I would not expect anyone to prepare for that.

However, our winters, after years of getting milder do seem to be getting colder again and if they continue thus, we would expect companies to be better prepared.

[L'aviateur]

If it's made bearable, i.e. the crew keep your updated with regular communication (even if to say no news!), they turn on the In-flight entertainment, and serve some drinks, then that solves a lot of problems. If they delay becomes even longer, and they provide snacks or even a meal, then people will be settled somehow.

But if you don't do any of that, and only give people a glass of water when the specifically request, well thats just poor customer service and low quality cabin crew/company procedures. The good crew are proactive and know what to do.

[PAXboy]

When travelling at any time, make sure that you have:
Food in the form of a 'snack' bar or filled chocolate bar (no brand names!)
Water as permissible. If airside, then get at least 250ml or 500ml
Have your mobile/cell battery as fully charged as possible
Plenty of cash because you will need it
Reading material in a small and easy format
Portable music if you wishI recall being badly delayed in November (checks diary) 1997 when one runway at LHR was closed due to a problem with an incoming being unable to clear (VS 340 with partly failed gear, I think it was) and we were on board waiting departure for several hours. Because of the situation, they could not open the bars/food. After a day at the office (it was now 22:00) I was OK as having my own supply.

Secondly, when caught in the NYC power failure of August 2003. Whether by car or train etc., take food and water. The only problem is those around you start begging for a sip/bite/use of your mobile. :uhoh:

[RevMan2]

Do you prepare for the worst storm/monsoon/drought/snow/etc expected in 20 years?

Actually, yes.

I've just subdivided some land in New Zealand and the council required me to demonstrate that drains and culverts were adequate for a Q50 event.

Take this winter as a baseline, determine the resources necessary to manage it and make that a legal requirement for operating a commercial airport.

Read Karl Marx on the ownership of the means of production and you'll find parallels galore to the current situation