BAW725 Mayday 17/12/2010 Heathrow

[autothrottle]

Just wanted to praise the crew of Speedbird 725 who declared a mayday at 500ft Rwy 27L. They were next to land , ATC LVP's just been implemented 500m RVR HEAVY snow, declared mayday and initiated go-around due unreliable airspeed. (poss pitot icing?)

Climbed on runway heading and remained on air arrivals frequency then headed for clear air and diverted to Luton I believe.

Good job boys.

Hell of a twenty minutes in the tower I can tell you.

Severe icing reported at the time in LTMA.

[eagle21]

Landed safely in LTN

Weather at the time:

EGLL 171320Z 30012KT 1100 R27L/P1500 R27R/P1500 SN SCT010 SCT042 M02/M03 Q0997 RESN=
EGLL 171250Z 35005KT 310V020 6000 SCT021 BKN024 M02/M03 Q0998 RESN=


EGGW 171350Z 30009KT 9999 FEW010 M03/M05 Q0995=
EGGW 171320Z 28009KT 9999 FEW007 M03/M05 Q0995=

[Going Boeing]

What aircraft type was BAW725?

[ConstantFlyer]

A319 G-eupo

[eagle21]

It's interesting to know the type for reference but I am glad these guys just flew the bus like it is meant in these cases. Thrust and Pitch. It works for all types:ok:

[Kerling-Approsh KG]

eagle,

Two questions...

First, did the bus make life as easy for the crew as other aircraft might have done?

Secondly, how did the crew feel about the aircraft and whether it was going to help them or frighten them? Like it or not, the bus has a reputation now, and it's one which makes even experienced and able pilots feel more concern than is appropriate when certain things go on. ADC-related problems are a specific cause of speeding pulses, even amongst the cognoscenti...

[FlexGate]

Great job by the crew :)

[White Knight]

Secondly, how did the crew feel about the aircraft and whether it was going to help them or frighten them? Like it or not, the bus has a reputation now, and it's one which makes even experienced and able pilots feel more concern than is appropriate when certain things go on. ADC-related problems are a specific cause of speeding pulses, even amongst the cognoscenti...

What reputation?????:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: The 'Bus is good as gold if you know it:D:D

Some of you prima-donnas will believe anything you read here:{

[protectthehornet]

oh puhleeze

any pilot worth their salt should know the approx power settings, pitch attitudes etc to fly the plane, even in instrument conditions to a safe landing with faulty airspeed indicator/pitot system

and why was it unreliable? was the pitot heat on? had it been checked prior to takeoff? prior to descent?

[eagle21]

First, did the bus make life as easy for the crew as other aircraft might have done?


It depends really, it some cases you might be fighting with some of the stabilities (=flight control degraded law envelope safeguard)

How the crew felt I couldn't comment on. From my own experience the more you know the aircraft the more you are aware of it's particular drawbacks.

I agree with you though stating that many people get more stress out of a situation on the airbus based on the perceived unpredictability of this particular aircraft by some. The design does not help much to improve situational awareness when things start going wrong. But then you have the TK and Thomson 737 stalling on approach...

Mostly it works as advertised but let's say more time could be spent on training complex scenarios so we can learn from recent multiple failure events.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Two questions...

First, did the bus make life as easy for the crew as other aircraft might have done?

Secondly, how did the crew feel about the aircraft and whether it was going to help them or frighten them? Like it or not, the bus has a reputation now, and it's one which makes even experienced and able pilots feel more concern than is appropriate when certain things go on. ADC-related problems are a specific cause of speeding pulses, even amongst the cognoscenti...

KAKG,

What on earth are you on about?

Pitch and power. Very simple in a 320 - easy numbers to remember, and easy to execute.

Now, I have only done unreliable airspeed in the sim (as we all have) but I had no special "feelings" for the aircraft at the time, nothing made me "frightened" and I have no idea what "reputation" the 320 series has, other than being an exceptionally capable, robust, useful and safe aircraft to operate.

You'll normally find that the people who go on about the Airbus are the ones who have never flown it.

[chris weston]

Let's not go down this road again chaps, it's almost Pavlovian.

'Bus or Boeing will struggle if it loses flight critical transducers like the pitots or AoA and the pointy end does not have the skill to problem solve and hand fly.

Which this crew did.

Respect from me.:ok:

CW

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Another example of why I will pay that extra 15 quid to fly BA/BMI/Virgin.

Excellently handled, I can quite imagine this incident could have ended up a lot worse if it had occured with less experienced, less well trained crew.

[Pizza Express]

another £15 instead of who?

[eagle21]

Another example of why I will pay that extra 15 quid to fly BA/BMI/Virgin

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/AAR%204-2010%20Boeing%20777-236,%20G-VIIR%2009-10.pdf

BA B777 take off from 700m shorter runway than calculated


http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Summary%20AAR%205-2007%20Airbus%20A321-231,%20G-MEDG.pdf

Bmed (now BMI) no visual at MDH continues approach, then Go around with EGPWS but don't apply full stick back.

Airline Industry and Aviation Safety News from Flightglobal (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/07/08/344187/virgin-a340-take-off-miscalculation-defeated-robust.html)

Virgin A340 take off with an error in take off performance of just under 100ts

Pure luck saved the day in this selection of BA,Virgin and BMI(bmed) serious incidents and not your 15£ investment. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[JazzyKex]

An interesting perspective Eagle, and to some extent you are right, situations develop, some are handled well others not.

I have now worked for three airlines in the UK, all reputable, all with a rigorous selection and training procedure. I am now in BA. If I was to make an admittedly huge generalisation it would be that the best pilots in BA are no better then the best pilots in any other airline...(and I'm sure some other operators will say the same) but the difference, and this is only in my own opinion and experience, is that the worst in BA are considerably better than the worst in some of the other places I've worked!!! The spread of "talent" has been considerably condensed by the selection process. I've not worked for Virgin or BMI so cannot compare those operators but only the ones I have encountered...

On this occasion, I'm glad all went well. I'm sure the airline was not the reason for a positive outcome and most crews would have handled the same situation in the same way. I am just glad the training and experience of the crew culminated in a normal arrival, at whatever destination!

As an addition I think that pax should be a little aware of their ticket cost and what it actually encompasses. Apart from crew training and few realise the backup associated with the ticket purchase. An example was during the volcanic ash fiasco. Both BA and Lufthansa were in our hotel. The BA pax were paid for their whole stay, the Lufty pax were paid for 3 nights then had to fend for themselves!!!

In the meantime I digress...the ticket a complex combination of payments. If all goes well the extra was a waste...if it doesn't...

[eagle21]

All I wanted to show is that legacy carriers have in the last 3 to 5 years been involved in what could have been major accidents eg:

Iberia A340 Quito
Air France A340 Montreal, plus really scary Go around at CDG on a A319 in 2007
Lufthansa A320 Crosswind Landing:eek:
Turkish Airlines B737 Amsterdam
American Airlines B737 a couple of overruns
BA as listed previously
Virgin as listed previously
Bmed(bmi) as listed previously
TAP A310 during airshow very close call on low flying turn
Aeroflot Take off from taxiway in OSL
Emirates A340 in Melbourne take off calculation error
Royal Air Maroc bent 767 on landing at JFK
Spanair MD80 at MAD flapless TO

If you look at the European major low cost airlines they have better statistics considering the ammount of sectors they operate per day. You might be right thinking that the worst pilots in a low cost might be worse that those on a legacy carrier. Mainly due to the experience levels but the error managment seems to work better in low cost as they are very aware of the lack of experience issue and they impose more conservative SOPs.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

I wasn't referring to Lo-Co, more some of the more "exotic" airlines. I can't remember the last time BA flew an aircraft into a hill during a CTO, oversped one into a decent to nearly Mmo, or grossly mishandled one leading to a stall condition.

[L337]

eagle21:

So what is your point?

Airlines have incidents, and accidents. Some more than most. Absolutely no carrier is perfect. But some are more safe than others.

Probably.

[aterpster]

eagle21:
Pure luck saved the day in this selection of BA,Virgin and BMI(bmed) serious incidents and not your 15£ investment.

It's all the luck of the draw, except perhaps Qantas.

[BOAC]

grossly mishandled one leading to a stall condition. - you have forgotten the 747-4 g/a at LHR a few years back? I think the speed got to 108lts and pitch to something big, but I cannot recall the detail.

[Nicholas49]

Come on guys, let's not let this descend into a "legacy vs. lo-co safety thread".

Does anyone know why the crew elected to divert to LTN rather than re-enter the hold at LHR?

Nick

[ImPlaneCrazy]

Probably just because of the shocking weather in EGLL at the time. According to one of my Luton contacts on landing at EGGW it had to be stowed to stand reporting loss of power? Can anyone confirm this; could be a completely different story...

[helen-damnation]

due unreliable airspeed

From a professional perspective, I'd love to know what indications the crew had to lead them to this conclusion. Something obvious (ECAM) or more subtle?

Rgds,

H-D

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<stowed to stand >

A procedure I'm not familiar with......

[Nicholas49]

Let's not be pedantic either, HD. You know what he meant.

[The Hitcher]

Sadly Nicholas pedantic boors such as HD are all to common on these forums, they must lurk for hours waiting to pounce on some poor unsuspecting spotter who puts a foot wrong.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

The Hitcher.. . but I AM a spotter too, and have been for about 55 years!!

Some of you people don't have a sense of humour do you?

[The Hitcher]

Well actually yes i do have a good sense of humour however even i struggled to find anything resembling humour in your post, just another boorish smart arse comment so loved by pilots ATC,s and engineers on here, what is it with you aviation "pros"?

[Smoketoomuch]

Classic internet misunderstanding methinks. Banter interpreted as insult - with nobody at fault.

HD is never critical - he shares his considerable knowledge genorously, with all, for which we are grateful. Perhaps more smilies needed tho - for clarity?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Smoketoomuch... Thank you for those kind words. I do try!!

The Hitcher.. You are not a pilot or controller and it is difficult for "outsiders" to understand us because most of us are slightly mad!! Sorry if I offended you.

[dlav]

Went to LTN as it was CAVOK, speed discrepancy of around 100 knots passing 900' Radio, having already lost 1 ADR. Memory actions carried out, QRH drill then followed.

Double ADR failure, flew to LTN in alternate law, direct law landing with an ECAM indication of no nose wheel steering, hence the tow off. No APU either, talk about one of those days!