Training: Get rich or go home...

[GAZ45]

Firstly to introduce myself. My name is Gareth, im from the UK and at 22 years old im a recent graduate in Architecture.

Like most of my fellow PPRuNers here, im an aviation nutt and always have been, and have had a life long passion of wanting to persue a career as an airline pilot. I did my degree in Architecture as a fallback plan, as i quickly became aware of how the aviation industry isnt the most reliable industry in the world when it comes to the job market.

Anyway, iv spent a while weighing up my options and routes and i suspect like alot of people im not only confused but the more i research the more i feel like its not going to be possible for me to become an airline pilot.

It feels like im either guna need 40K at least or i may aswel forget it....but i dont want to, and im left feeling empty and quite litterally gutted and unsure of what to do with my life.

I went out for selection with a few air training schools that offer Ab-Initio fATPL's and passed them all. I also think that with family aid i may just about get accepted for the 80k loan which most of these schools require... but should i even bother doing that? From the months of research iv done, hundreds if not thousands of people are going down that route and ending up in a right state in their early 20s ie. nearly 100K of debt and no job at the end of the course...

Even OAA had no bones about admitting to us that they have a pool of over 300 graduates all waiting for employment and the team they have there have been upfront about how crippling the loan re-payments are even if you do land a F/O job... (someone i met was saying that the Flybe Part Sponsorship was an awful deal, even though they fund your TR the starting salary is 25K ish per year. Bearly enough to cover the initial phase of loan repayment. Although i do know some airlines offer very good starting salarys.)

The other option iv been assessing is the modular route, which to me is looking better. Cheaper, but the timescale is abit of a pain but i know my passion will drive me and im sure il love doing it... But then it only takes 10 minutes of looking through PPRuNe to discover a whole other selection of threads slating modular saying its "old hat" and not what the airlines want.




All i want is some non bias advice on what to do, prefferably from a selection of people with the authority to back up their advice ie. current pilots, current trainee pilots, graduates with no jobs...

Im just tired of replies from other wannabes who have no clue and seem to immediatly take a negative stance on the career because they are struggling to get into the job too. Sorry to be blunt there, and sorry to anyone who feels iv repeated topics on other threads.

Hope to hear some interesting replys
Gareth
:sad:

[Mercenary Pilot]

Get a job, earn some money, do some flying, get your PPL and then see where it takes you. :ok:

In reference to the thread title, you will never get rich flying other peoples aircraft. If things go well in your flying career, you may have a fairly decent income and/or a good standard of living but you will never be rich.

[flyvirgin]

I have to agree with the above post

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Hello Gareth, welcome to PPRUNE.

I dont post much on PPRUNE these days, however, I have just read your thread and thought I would contribute my experience. I too had a tremendous amount of enthusiasm for aviation when I started.

I am a current airline pilot flying the Airbus A320 series from London Heathrow.

Firstly, the questions you are asking have been asked by all pilots in the early stages if their training, so don't feel alone. The financial committment, time element and the sheer hard work and determination of achieving your goal to fly for a living is bound to put pressure on you.

It is diffuclt to give sound advice on this subject due to fact everyone has a different story to tell. I try to be open minded to the 'best' way forward. It really depends on your own circumstances. For example, you will hear from guys/gals who went down the integrated route that, that is the way to go, and airlines dont want modular guys. Firstly, that is bull****, they will take suitable candidates with the correct credentials and personality profile, i.e you have a CPL/IR and you are not a tit. Personal recommendations also go along way. The integrated route for me didnt work, simply because I did not have the cash required to fund it. I know guys I work with who went to OAA at the age of 19, popped out the other end and walked straight into a jet job, which is great, however, it doesnt work for everyone. I was a modular student, and even though it took me many years to achieve my goal, it was worth every ounce of effort. The main constraints for me were financial. Looking back at the journey, it made me develop as a person, I got some life experience, met some great people, learnt a little about industry, and the whole process makes me appreciate now what I have, and realise how lucky I am to go to work and thoroughly enjoy it.

The good thing about yourself, is you still have time on your side, you are 22 with plenty of years ahead of you. When I decided to go down the self sponsored route, I was not comfortable with a big fat loan from the bank, so saved most of the cash before I even started. This took some of the financial pressure off me. I did have a loan to finish off my IR, however it was managable and I cleared it as soon as I was employed by an airline. The problem is however, this method takes time, and depends how patient you are.

Another thing for some of us here who have been flying for a few years, is that the whole recruitment process is changing. Candidates are now going down the road of putting their hands in their pockets to fork out more money to fund line training in hope to get ahead of the next guy. I dont want to start that debate, however it is a fact, and the thing I find sad about this, is that it boils down to the fact that money talks, and its not right. Hopefully, as things pick up this process will fade away, but who knows?

All I can say to you Gareth, is if you are serious about achieving your goal, go for it. Life is too short to wonder 'what if?'. Believe me if you are shrewd enough with your money and plan your training carefully you will save a hell of a lot of cash. See it has an investment in your future and also an investment in your happiness. Unless you are filthy rich and can retire early, you have to work for a long time in your life, so you may as well be happy doing it.

All the best.

[GAZ45]

In response to 'Mercenary Pilot' and 'flyvirgin', the title of my post "get rich or go home" i was referring to the huge cost of training these days ie. it appears you have to be rich to jump straight into an integrated course and come out a year later flying jets. I wasnt reffering to becoming rich from being a pilot. Sorry for the confusion there, but thanks for the reply.

And CAT3C AUTOLAND thankyou also for your response. I dont have the funds either, and certainly dont want 80K ontop of my student debt so thats out of the window. Looks like the modular route is for me, and as you say the experience doing it that way will hopefully build me as a person and possibly stand me in a better, more experienced position when it comes to getting that first job!



To anyone else who may be able to clear this question up for me.... iv looked at this website:

JAA Pro Pilot (http://www.flyoft.com/jaa-training/pro-pilot-courses.html)

offering a JAA ATPL. Its a flight school in florida but issues a JAA license. I have done research and im the first to say im not the most informed person on the subject, but i thought your IR and PPL had to be JAA issued. In the course description both the PPL and IR are FAA issued. Is this an example of a course that will literally get me no where in the UK aviation industry? or am i mistaken?

Gareth

[A330ETOPS]

Hi Gareth,

I went the Integrated route at FTE. Graduated in Aug 08.

Not a sniff of a job as yet. Still applying and keeping my applications up-to date.

It's cost me £90k + so far with the interest. Luckily i've had my business to fall back on (self employed). If i didnt have this i'd be screwed! (Just under 2k per month on my repayments :ugh:)

If you've got a backup plan, then go for it. Things may be different once you've done your training but as you know the aviation industry is up and down all the time.


We'll get there eventually! Good luck on whatever route you choose. Modular seems to be the best financial route. I too was led into the Integrated route thinking it'd give me a better chance of a job. I've lots of friends that did it modular and they're in employment with ryr etc.

The price was cheaper than integrated plus they could get more cash for a P2F scheme (I wont go into this debate....)

I could get the cash for ryr if i had to, but i'm against the whole thing so we wont go there (May not get accepted anyhow!!)

[NukeHunt]

To put perspective on what A330ETOPS has said, I went Modular and finished at the end of 2008 too.

So far not a sniff of a job either although I only have to find £400 a month to service my loan as my training the modular way cost less than £50K which is much more manageable than the £1200+ :eek: that some poor buggers who went integrated are having to find.

That is a hell of a lot of money to have to worry about before you even get out of bed in a morning, and unless you have a decent 2nd career, it is going to be very very hard to sustain that as well as pay for everything else required just to live even a basic lifestyle.

At your age, you can afford to take time to get a job, earn some money, and train modular alongside the work, and even if it takes you 4 years, you will still be young enough to be in with a decent chance and won't have a massive loan to re-pay. You can also speed up or slow down your training as YOU see fit to time it with the jobs market.
:)

[aviator_88]

Integrated route is only for those who have secured job after training...and those who didn't know what they were doing...
I don't understand how the hell can someone pay £100k for CPL IR/ME + MCC when you can get that for €40k...

I don't know how much flying is at FTE or OAA Integrated route but according to JAR-FCL you need 150hrs on a/c to take CPL skill test, while on modular it's 200hrs (less money more flight hrs.)

If you do some research:
taking FTE/OAA/CTC Integrated route will cost you up to €80k (plus interest) and you will end up in a pool with 300+ candidates with CPL IR/ME

for that amount of euros you can have: PPL+TIME BUILDING(some of it may be for free)+NQ+IR/SE+MEP+IR/ME+CPL+ BOEING 737 TR + 500HRS on TYPE...
What ever your decision is do some research first (JAR-FCL, Approved FTOs, Instructors...)

Integrated route :ugh::ugh:

[GAZ45]

Thanks for the responses guys. I think iv started to set my heart on modular, purely because of the finances...

NukeHunt.....did you take out a 40/50K loan and do it modular then? or work alongside and take out a much smaller loan to suppliment your cash from your other job for modular flight training?

Iv got to be honest here, im getting quite disheartened by the whole industry. Training costs a bomb, and the cost is still rising. Your having to fund your own TR etc.

Makes me wonder if the school drop outs at 15 who went to become plumbers and brickys had it right all along. I have friends now in that position on 40k a year....flight training modular for them would be a relitively small chunk out of that wage..

Me on the other hand, got 10 good GCSE's, 3 A Levels, a damn good degree and look at me now? No substantial work history, a university debt, and a career in aviation that feel passionatly about getting into thats guna set me back the best part of 50K.

Wheres the nearest plumbing collage? I need to start saving

[Nearly There]

I thought architecture took 7 years? are you a technician? if so have you considered work as such in a local architects and pay as you go with the flying training over the next couple of years you're only 22 so time on your side to come out at the end with no debt.

[GAZ45]

Yes it does take 7 years I think and yes I'm a technician. That's the plan I think, it's what I've graduated in and it makes sense to do a job in that field whilst I'm getting finance for modular. Plus it should make me a little bit more money than the average job I suppose.

[goaround737]

I finished modular training a few months ago and am currently job hunting. The comments above cover it fairly well so ive little to add to it however if you have any specific questions and want answers from someone who has recently left the flight training 'loop' please feel free to PM me.

regards

[ElitePilot]

Totally with Cat3C on his post.
If you got another good source of income do that and go the modular route in you're free time. Its a tough ride to balance but best way financially since there's no easy recipe into this industry right now... hopefully things will change with the upturn whenever that comes!
I had another proffesion went modular then instructing now employed on the 320. Good thing about having a good stable income is you can get credit and its the cards that financed my training... which i'm still paying off I may add! :(

[zondaracer]

You´re only 22 and you feel lost!? You still have lots of time to figure it out. When I was 22, I had it all planned out, I was going to be a pilot in the Air Force and live out the dream, but then I had a medical DQ. Total bummer, I ended up having to still be in the Air Force for 4 years at a desk job. Believe me, the first two years felt like the worst two years of my life, but I slowly worked to getting my private pilot´s license, and then my last year in the Air Force I got my IR and CPL. I did this on weekends, nights afterwork, and sometimes got up at 3am before work. I had a brand new baby and a wife who was supportive but still had a hard time with all my time between work and flying.

I´m 28 now, don´t have a job yet, but at least I don´t have any debt. I paid for my training as I went (and I did it in the US so I guess you could call it modular), but being debt free is the ultimate freedom.

My advice is start out with the PPL and go from there, you still have lots of time and to do it debt free will be worth it in the end! And don´t look at the guys who got right hand seats at 19 years old and think that you are behind in the game. Lots of guys start older, and besides, life is a journey, not a race. Good luck.

[AlpineSkier]

@ GAZ45

the school drop outs at 15 who went to become plumbers and brickys had it right all along. I have friends now in that position on 40k a year


From what i see all the time on building/plumbing forums, this is just impossible to believe.

Suggest they are boosting their situation to feel better.

[Wirbelsturm]

AlpineSkier

Suggest they are boosting their situation to feel better.

Not looking at what my plumber charges when he condecendes to take to work it isn't!!!

GAZ45,

The quandry you seem to face is the same as anyone trying to break into the commercial aviation sector from the word go (i.e. Young and enthusiastic). The airlines that are recruiting are currently hoovering up the type rated excess pilots. There are also many who are disallusioned with the whole airline system of starting at the bottom irrespective of experience and having to work it all through again only to get binned at the next downturn.

The up side of this is that the major manufacturers are reporting full order books, the 10 year extension to the mandatory retirment age (activated in 2005) is half way through and many of my peers at a major national airline are like myself and do not wish to work until 65.

So that leaves you with the gamble. Everyone you talk to will have a different opinion as to when recruitment will pick up. I have been in the industry for over 25 years now flying all sorts and I still hear, every year, of the great pilot shortage that never happened.

Only you can judge whether your personal circumstances warrent the financial risk.

Good luck in making your decision.

[flyhighspeed300]

Hey

Just to add there is a bigger back log of wanabes Pilots holding a Frozen ATPL. Flybe 3 years ago got 300 applications a month. At the moment its some where between 600- 1000 C.Vs a month.

I got told last year there is somewhere between 5,000- 7,000 pilots holding either a JAA Frozen ATPL or ATPL licence looking for a flying job.

Because of these high numbers and people willing to do anything; i.e to pay for there type rating to get a flying job the cheaper the cost of paying pilot becomes.

[G-F0RC3]

Hi Gareth

I can give a slightly different perspective from the guys above who have been flying big jets for many years.

I am also 22 and am about half-way through my PPL training. I started about a year ago and have loved every expensive minute of it! My dream is to fly for an airline but my love is for flying, irrespective of what type of aircraft it's in. The other day I was flying at 2000ft over a snowy landscape in the bubble cockpit of a Piper Tomahawk. I then made an approach and landed on a lit runway as the sun had started to go down over the horizon. I can honestly say that there is no photograph that you could show me that would be as breathtakingly beautiful as that! If people consider that a waste of money just because it doesn't get them the big job they want then I think they have lost sight of the main reason they wanted to become a pilot in the first place: to fly!

I am training via a modular route, obviously. I might have even considered an integrated route if I thought I had any chance of getting that kind of finance but in reality I think the modular route is the most viable option financially. Since financing pilot training seems to be the biggest obstacle for most people the modular route would appear to be the most sensible, least risky and most enjoyable option, especially in the wake of the current financial black hole from which the aviation industry has not yet emerged! Nobody said it was going to be easy, good things rarely are!

Financially you can do the following: Invest £500 of your earnings per month (as if it were a bill) into your training and by the time you are 30 you will have invested around £48,000 (a lot of money)... and be debt free! :) With that kind of money in a modular route you could get a frozen ATPL with all the other fancy things that come with it, and a HUGE amount of enjoyment in the process! Eight years isn't that long to wait considering it's not that much more time than most university degrees.

Don't be too disillusioned by what people say because at the end of the day if you train to fly then you might not get where you want as quickly as you want to: but if you don't train to fly then you definately will never get where you want. You have a good degree to fall back on if things don't go right or if you can't get a job, the above method doesn't leave you in piles of debt and what's the worsed that could happen? Would you not rather reach old-age having known that you tried your best than always wonder "what if"?

I hope the above gives you a renewed sense of optimism and enthusiasm, or failing that I hope it at least gives you some form of help! :) If not then feel free to ignore it too! Good luck! :ok:

Kind Regards

[Bealzebub]

My 3rd Christmas since graduating and still without a job! (boo) ho! ho! ho!

I know there's many guys like me out there. Some with way more experience but being a lifelong and extremely keen aviator (have been flying privately for over 10 years and thought about nothing else since I was old enough to walk), I am saddened to see the reality that is the British airline pilot recruitment scene today. I would go as far as saying that my mental health is suffering because the more I try to imagine a future in this industry, the more ill I become simply because I just do not see a way out. It's only now dawning on me the comment that some people make....'half the guys who graduate are just never destined to land a commercial flying job!'... I used to think, that's got to be true for some but surely not for those who try and work hard to get a job.

Double blow of raspberry! The fact is most of us try mighty hard to get noticed by airlines but luck is not coming our way due to what is happening within the recruitment departments of our airlines. Now before reading on, do take note that when speaking of pilot recruitment I concede that experienced and type rated pilots are still in the plenty and will likely get any positions first (if you think that really happens then we have an elementary problem anyway!), however my comparisions are more between modular and integrated guys.

I’m the first to admit there never has been or ever will be a shortage of low hours pilots at the lower end of the recruitment pipe. However, traditionally movement has to come from somewhere and that would take place in the form of fair and equal assessment opportunities being offered to guys like us. That is both modular and integrated students being invited to compete for the same jobs (if an airline has 30 positions, traditionally 5-10 would go to newbies like us). These opportunities simply do not exist anymore. Airlines are recruiting low hours pilots right now. Boy are they! Look at recent stats: EZY (all the freaking time via CTC), AL (2009s recruitment was mostly Oxford graduates and this Christmas’s intake I’m hearing are mostly young graduates from the big flight schools), Monarch (just hired a bunch of CTC low hours guys) and now TCX are hiring (rest assured, they will also go to the big flight schools looking for low hours pilots). All of these airlines had a preference for A320 type rated pilots (of which I am one), but what they really have a preference for are young, unadulterated and up to their ears in debt new graduates from CTC and Oxford who have been pre-selected.

So what’s going on? In all of the above cases our airlines are favouring their “tried and tested” relationship with the big flight schools. They blindly and as a matter of policy turn down guys who have trained anywhere else (or trained the modular route). And that is a becoming more and more true no matter where you go. The reality is clear: Oxford and CTC have the monopoly and practically own low hours pilot recruitment in the UK through their relationships with airlines. Fewer and fewer airlines are interested in dipping into the pilot gene pool. Makes sense from a commercial perspective for a company to go with a trusted brand sure it does. As the bottom dollar is all everyone cares about these days, guys like us can never expect any sympathy.

I’m truly convinced that my generation of modularly trained pilot graduates are just never going to get anywhere in this country and with UK airlines no matter how good they are or how hard they try. This factor singlehandedly is what breeds the desire to go join a “P2F” line training scheme. As no one is interested in assessing small school trained modular guys, the ONLY thing we can do is grow big and grow big fast! by paying for the experience.

Yes superpilot, that is exactly what these airlines want.

If you turn the clock back 20,30,40 years, there were only a handful of pilots that ever got recruited by airlines with a couple of hundred hour under their belt. Those pilots came from a very small number of approved training schools and often with affiliations to a small number of airlines.

For the majority of non-military (self improver) airline applicants, they worked their way through the system. Many fell by the wayside, but for those that didn't it meant working your way through the "aerial work" jobs. Flight instruction, glider towing, parachute dropping, aerial photography, rich friends and aquaintances with planes who wanted help now and again. You worked your hours up to 700+ and did the requisite examinations and tests for the CPL/IR and started looking for air taxi jobs whilst still sending CV's to all and sundry.

In those days you could instruct on a PPL with the requisite ratings. However this was a variation rarely found outside of the UK, where any form of flying for hire and reward required a commercial licence.

The introduction of JAA brought with it changes to the licensing system that did away with this anomaly and at the same reduced the experience levels requried for the "modular" issue of a CPL to a couple of hundred hours. In essence (if not strictly) this made the CPL more of an "aerial work" licence similar to that that existed in the USA and much of the rest of the world.

The problem for many, is the perception that this level of experience is all you need to start exciting interest from airlines. Many confused the modular 200 hour experience, with the approved course 200 experience that had been a limited springboard previously. That was a mistake!

To be fair it was a mistake aided by the fact that, one or two new entrant "Lo-Co's" who couldn't eliminate the role of First Officer completely, (as they very vocally wanted to do,) chose to exploit the loophole seemingly left by the new JAA licencing system, in order to attract the next best option.

What you are seeing today, is in fact no different from what happened previously. Airlines are still recruiting cadet pilots (in much greater proportion) with 200 hours, but those pilots are coming from recognised, affiliated, full time, monitored, mentored schools. These candidates are a known quality, their training records are consistent and readily available. In fact no different than it has always been.

The type rating is simply icing. A modular 200 pilot who has bought this training piecemeal and then purchased a type rating with no experience attached to it, is likely to raise cocerns in many quarters. That is one of the many reasons why you don't see these airlines interviewing them. I have flown with a lot of low hour pilots over the last 15 years and all of them have come from one of the recognised schools you have already stated. They are good, and they are not in short supply.

[Superpilot]

This is my 3rd Christmas since graduating and still without a job! (boo) ho! ho! ho!
Now, I am totally against integrated courses for reasons I’m not going to go into here but my advice if you want a job (learn from my mistake) is to save up and do an integrated course or be prepared to self-fund a TR with line training (lots of it). Modular pilots just do not get hired anymore in the manner they used to 5 years ago.

I know there's many guys like me out there. Some with way more experience but being a lifelong and extremely keen aviator (have been flying privately for over 10 years and thought about nothing else since I was old enough to walk), I am saddened to see the reality that is the British airline pilot recruitment scene today. I would go as far as saying that my mental health is suffering because the more I try to imagine a future in this industry, the more ill I become simply because I just do not see a way out. It's only now dawning on me the comment that some people make....'half the guys who graduate are just never destined to land a commercial flying job!'... I used to think, that's got to be true for some but surely not for those who try and work hard to get a job.

Double blow of raspberry! The fact is most of us try mighty hard to get noticed by airlines but luck is not coming our way due to what is happening within the recruitment departments of our airlines. Now before reading on, do take note that when speaking of pilot recruitment I concede that experienced and type rated pilots are still in the plenty and will likely get any positions first (if you think that really happens then we have an elementary problem anyway!), however my comparisions are more between modular and integrated guys.

I’m the first to admit there never has been or ever will be a shortage of low hours pilots at the lower end of the recruitment pipe. However, traditionally movement has to come from somewhere and that would take place in the form of fair and equal assessment opportunities being offered to guys like us. That is both modular and integrated students being invited to compete for the same jobs (if an airline has 30 positions, traditionally 5-10 would go to newbies like us). These opportunities simply do not exist anymore. Airlines are recruiting low hours pilots right now. Boy are they! Look at recent stats: EZY (all the freaking time via CTC), AL (2009s recruitment was mostly Oxford graduates and this Christmas’s intake I’m hearing are mostly young graduates from the big flight schools), Monarch (just hired a bunch of CTC low hours guys) and now TCX are hiring (rest assured, they will also go to the big flight schools looking for low hours pilots). All of these airlines had a preference for A320 type rated pilots (of which I am one), but what they really have a preference for are young, unadulterated and up to their ears in debt new graduates from CTC and Oxford who have been pre-selected.

So what’s going on? In all of the above cases our airlines are favouring their “tried and tested” relationship with the big flight schools. They blindly and as a matter of policy turn down guys who have trained anywhere else (or trained the modular route). And that is a becoming more and more true no matter where you go. The reality is clear: Oxford and CTC have the monopoly and practically own low hours pilot recruitment in the UK through their relationships with airlines. Fewer and fewer airlines are interested in dipping into the pilot gene pool. Makes sense from a commercial perspective for a company to go with a trusted brand sure it does. As the bottom dollar is all everyone cares about these days, guys like us can never expect any sympathy.

I’m truly convinced that my generation of modularly trained pilot graduates are just never going to get anywhere in this country and with UK airlines no matter how good they are or how hard they try. This factor singlehandedly is what breeds the desire to go join a “P2F” line training scheme. As no one is interested in assessing small school trained modular guys, the ONLY thing we can do is grow big and grow big fast! by paying for the experience.

[Felix Saddler]

If Superpilot is correct, I find it very sad, and incredibly discriminatory... People shouldn't be able to bypass experience with money, and money shouldn't deem talent superfluous: It's not the case for university graduates, so why is it for pilots?
Why is it that a 3000hr bush pilot/FI, who has an immeasurable amount of experience, determination, and life experience, be overlooked for an inexperienced wide eyed cadet? That is just wrong...

[Bealzebub]

Yes superpilot, that is exactly what these airlines want.

If you turn the clock back 20,30,40 years, there were only a handful of pilots that ever got recruited by airlines with a couple of hundred hours under their belt. Those pilots came from a very small number of approved training schools and often with affiliations to a small number of airlines.

For the majority of non-military (self improver) airline applicants, they worked their way through the system. Many fell by the wayside, but for those that didn't it meant working your way through the "aerial work" jobs. Flight instruction, glider towing, parachute dropping, aerial photography, rich friends and aquaintances with planes who wanted help now and again. You worked your hours up to 700+ and did the requisite examinations and tests for the CPL/IR and started looking for air taxi jobs whilst still sending CV's to all and sundry.

In those days you could instruct on a PPL with the requisite ratings. However this was a variation rarely found outside of the UK, where any form of flying for hire and reward required a commercial licence.

The introduction of JAA brought with it changes to the licensing system that did away with this anomaly and at the same reduced the experience levels required for the "modular" issue of a CPL to a couple of hundred hours. In essence (if not strictly) this made the CPL more of an "aerial work" licence similar to that that existed in the USA and much of the rest of the world.

The problem for many, is the perception that this level of experience is all you need to start exciting interest from airlines. Many confused the modular 200 hour experience, with the approved course 200 experience that had been a limited springboard previously. That was a mistake!

To be fair it was a mistake aided by the fact that, one or two new entrant "Lo-Co's" who couldn't eliminate the role of First Officer completely, (as they very vocally wanted to do,) chose to exploit the loophole seemingly left by the new JAA licencing system, in order to attract the next best option.

What you are seeing today, is in fact no different from what happened previously. Airlines are still recruiting cadet pilots (albeit in much greater proportion) with 200 hours, but those pilots are coming from recognised, affiliated, full time, monitored, mentored and integrated schools. These candidates are a known quality, their training records are consistent and readily available. In fact no different than it has always been.

The type rating is simply icing. A modular 200 hour pilot who has bought this training piecemeal and then purchased a type rating with no experience attached to it, is likely to raise concerns in many quarters. That is one of the many reasons why you don't see these airlines interviewing them. I have flown with a lot of low hour pilots over the last 15 years and all of them have come from one of the recognised schools you have already stated. They are good, and they are not in short supply.

[Superpilot]

Why is it that a 3000hr bush pilot/FI, who has an immeasurable amount of experience, determination, and life experience, be overlooked for an inexperienced wide eyed cadet?

Hi Felix, the airlines prefer young cadets who can very easily be moulded into the airline simply because life/experience has taught them nothing else. They look down on GA experience. The wrong attitude? I 100% agree but there rules go.

Thanks Beazle, I too now concede that this has always been the way. I guess, I'm part of a generation of modular pilots who were sold a false dream on the back of what appeared to be quite a rampant recruitment period.

I have spent close to £70k on my modular training (including an A320 TR). At this point I either give up totally or accept the reality of the situation: The most likely way for me to land a paid flying position is to get on to a line training "scheme" in the hope that it becomes some sort of extended assessment opportunity. Who said modular costs less than integrated? :ugh:

[Felix Saddler]

Superpilot:- If i were you I'd stick it out, the only way you'll conform to what you say is if you give in... keep you're self current and there'll always be a way in! :ok:

F.

[Bealzebub]

No, I don't necessarily agree with that Superpilot.

As I already said, it was never a particularly quick or easy ride, but it most certainly wasn't impossible. There are a great many pilots flying airliners today who are testament to that.

The problem is one of perception. That perception being that 200 hours and a licence, however aquired, is a magic carpet ride into the interview room of most airlines. It never was, isn't, and likely never will be.

The biggest problem at the moment remains the doldrums in airline recruitment. The economy coupled with longevity changes to the pilots career structure has resulted in very little demand at the entry level for most companies. Where there has been demand it has gravitated towards the cadet end of the market. This has been bad news for experienced career pilots looking for new positions as a result of redundancy, advancement and change. It has also been bad news for military pilots looking for career change at fixed points in their own career cycle.

The demand for traditional experience has diminished as airlines seek to reduce the employment costs of new entry pilots. That cost has reached a crossover point by utilising the best of the low experienced candidates in supply. That is seen as being those cadets who the airline has input with, and whose training is a known quantity by virtue of the airlines association with specific training providers.

I believe this should always be part of a measured input and not simply cost generated. However the expansion in recruitment should (and I believe eventually will) be back towards the experienced jet /turboprop applicant and the ex-military pilots. However for the traditional self improver, that opportunity should normally only be afforded when their experience levels show a broader aviation background, and that isn't going to happen for most people when their hours are measured in hundreds.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Guys, with all due respect why is it that quite a few guys with the least amount of experience and who have never worked for an airline seem to know 'what the airlines want?'.

Superpilot you are referring to certain low-cost airlines, but that policy is not the case for the majority of airlines.

I know it's frustrating, but hang in there guys. This is the first time for a while I have started to see a demand for pilots, so hopefully over the next year lowtime guys will get a look in. I really hope so.

[Bealzebub]

Excuse me taking up too much space in this thread, but I would also add something else that might help in understanding what is happening.

In the nearly 3 decades that I have sat in the left seat of commercial airliners, I have flown with hundreds, many hundreds of new F/O's and I doubt my experiences have differed greatly from the majority of other Captains with similar, greater, or less experience.

Far and away the majority of pilots you fly with are conscientious, professional, aspirational, intelligent, amiable individuals. Everybody has a different makeup of ingredients that gives them their own character and individuality. Sometimes the hardest thing in flying (or many other jobs) is the ability to learn and adapt your own persona, to that of the people you are working with. On top of that is the need to absorb knowledge, be flexible, be assertive as necessary, ask questions when in doubt, and constantly learn from each experience and each individual you fly with.

Serious problems are very few and far between, and even then they are usually resolvable. However when they do occur, it tends to be as result of poor training, poor CRM, poor attitude, or simple lack of experience that isn't easily remedied. Over the years difficulties have arisen rarely with military pilots who on occaissions may have had difficulty in adapting later in life to a new set of operating realities. Experienced pilots changing jobs have sometimes found it difficult to adapt to a new companies SOP's. But undoubtably the majority of cases have tended to be with pilots who have come through the self improver route with low experience and sometimes a patchy training background.

Let me make it clear, that is not universally the case, and such examples are significantly in the minority, but (and I am talking about pilots with 700+ hours here) it is the where the problems tended to arise when indeed they did.

About 15 years ago, we started to see the first intake of cadets from integrated training schools. Like many other people, I had some serious misgivings and concerns about the low levels of experience these cadets brought with them. However the reality was that these cadets brought with them a whole new level in those concepts we now refer to as CRM, as well as a remarkable degree of basic knowledge, desire for feedback, great attitude, and adaptability.

Their unbroken and continuous training, had been provided by one establishment that taught them in an airline style environment, so that they found the transistion to real airline flying a seamless and seemingly natural concept. I am only speaking from my own experience (and I am sure there must be contrary examples,) but I have never in all that time flown with one cadet that has presented any serious problem at all. In fact I am not aware (in my own environment) of one single cadet who hasn't gone on to achieve their command at the normal time / experience level. Some of those early cadets have now gone on to become Trainers and managers within the same company. Whatever doubts I had 15 years ago have been well and truly proven unfounded.

This is why many of these companies are so keen to resource their cadets from these programmes. The companies have a close association with the training schools. They can, when required, see a candidates entire training history and progress reports. They can see them in a format they know and understand. In the current economic climate they can aquire this same quality experience relatively cheaply, with little risk, and on terms and conditions that are highly favourable to themselves. There is little training risk, and if they really don't like what they receive, they can send it back.

So yes, I think you make a very valid point when you say that "who said modular costs less than integrated" On the face of it it does. For many it is the only realistic way of achieveing a licence. The vast majority of aspirants will utilize this method. There is no particular reason why a person following this route shouldn't achieve their goals and ambitions at some point, with a lot of luck and perseverance. However people would be wise to take a broader viewpoint and understand that the majority of airlines taking in 200 hour cadets will want to assure themselves that those cadets have come from what the company perceives as a training organisation it knows and trusts and has its own input with.

[smith]

What's best? Integrated or modular?

[Firestorm]

I was asked at an interview recently what advice I would give to someone in exactly your position.

My answer was this.

If you are passionate about aviation get yourself a good job that pays you enough to keep flying GA types as your 'hobby' pastime or whatever you wish to call it. This industry is becoming horribly cut throat, and desperately expensive, especially if you have already done a university degree. Starting your working life neck deep in debt (before you by a house) is a really really really bad thing to do.

My situation: 13 years as a pilot, 2 turbo prop types, one jet type, 5300 total time, 2 years unemployed since redundancy, and two rather shaky job offers for next year.

Next please!

[rcm112]

For a new pilot embarking on a modular route to a pilot career there is no better backup than having a building trade background.
You have flexibility with hours and the ability to earn as much money as you want to work for.
There is plenty of work for good tradesmen and as the owner of a company employing numerous trades i can tell you 40k a year is on the low side.
My highest earners gross wage this year was 62k.
We have 2 guys working for us who have been made redundant from the city who are retraining as the jobs market is so poor.
We have also had 3 guys emigrate to australia on tradesmen visas ,but 2 are going to train as pilots eventually due to there being more opportunities over there.
There are plenty of pilots with a working class background its not where you start its where you end up that matters.

[paidworker]

To the OP. I started the self funded 07/08 route a few years ago which allowed me be flexible with my training and keep an eye on the jobs market. Pretty soon into it I realised things were falling apart in the jobs market and slowed right down , I have since not speeded up! I fly bye and large for fun and work in a much better paid job than what I see being offerred or available after five or ten years as a pilot nowadays. Whilst I do have a little shiny jet syndrome still I got past the point where it seems many dont and have their judgement clouded and continue to commit every penny to the " hobby " .. It seems people are prepared to put their hand in their pocket for more and more these days such that the risk is increasing and the point of potential return is being moved further and further down the line. I honestly envisage the day where captains are paying for their first command...so flying remains a passion and not my own source of income. I responded to your post because you seem to be looking at the market honestly , which was something that was very hard for me to do at the time but in hindsight I am very glad I did even if I wish sometimes when boarding I was turning left;) Perhaps down the road things change and I speed up or just end up qualified but I have already realised I am not going to pay for a job or hours etc. etc..its not lack of determination,.. I am determined in many ways and successful ,,its more that I am not prepared to pay any price. Good luck for the future , hopefully it picks up such that self improvers have to be looked at as serious contenders for a job.

[GAZ45]

Firstly I would like to thank everyone for their response.

Secondly, I am now so confused as to what decision to make. It seems to me that OAA and CTC are costly, but make up for this with their ties to airlines.

I am completely confused as to what to do, and I don't mind admitting it. Modular sounds great, and other flight schools that are cheaper seem good too, but what is the point in doing these courses if the chances of airline employment at the end of training are minimal.

I know going to a school like Oxford doesn't guarantee airline employment, but I am beginning to think that if I am ever to get in the right hand seat of a jet I better had risk the huge cost just to get in the pockets of the airlines.

Fyings my dream, and I am envious of you guys who are living the dream! Hopefully I will get there one day, I'm sure I will, it's all I've ever wanted to do. Just unfortunate that the more research I do, the more confused I seem to become. I guess the only way to find out is to get out there and risk it!

[captainsuperstorm]

Fyings my dream, and I am envious of you guys who are living the dream!

do you think I was living my dream, working 12 hours a day, 6 legs a day, tired...

GET A CLUE, it s not a dream job anymore!!!!:{

[Felix Saddler]

GAZ,
Unfortunately it comes down to whether or not you have the financial firepower to fork out 100k for training, and a few years extra £ to see you through, if you want to go Integrated.
Could you afford to pay £1000+ a month back after training without a flying job? Would you have the resources available to fund a TR of up to £30,000 to secure a flying job? If so, take a risk; If not, go modular!
Is modular pointless? Ask you're self this: Do I want to pilot aeroplanes for a living? If the above isn't possible, It is you're only option - and not a bad one at that!

I was due to start at OAA, on the Integrated course, but have decided against it. I decided I'd far rather enjoy my flight training, take my time with it, and take it one step at a time, without the financial burden.
I wasn't that impressed as a whole with the 'big schools' as it were. I felt as though the wool was being pulled over my eyes, they couldn't ever answer my questions directly, and it all sounded oh-so rehearsed. It seemed as though I was heading into a massive industrial meat processing unit, only to be churned out, like everybody else, with the same minimal qualifications, and the realization that I was no different to the other 1000+ people looking for the same job! I'm not doubting the training is of a good standard, but I don't believe it's any better than where i did my PPL.

For what it's worth: I'm planning to head out to Africa next year to try get a job as an African bush pilot; a flying job, flying real aeroplanes, in a surreal yet challenging environment. I will have spent $16,000, or £10,000, post PPL, achieving my JAA CPL and the necessary hours and exams and be debt free.

If you really want to fly, you will fly.
Persistence and luck is all it takes...
Best of luck!

F.

[fade to grey]

I'm with firestorm.
Gaz, you seem like a sensible guy - have you done a PPL yet ? Don't risk any 'big' money before you see if you have any aptitude for it and even like it or not - bearing in mind messing about in a cessna has little in relation to the reality of airline life.

The truth is there is a fine line between dreams and nightmares. I still think people still look at the uniform and think glamour - think again - think of birthdays/xmas//weekends away from home. Think of struggling to maintain any social life, think of 12 hour + shifts starting at 2 am.Remember you don't fly much - airline SOPs generally don't encourage hand flying these days, I generally get about 4-5 mins stick time max in a 7 hour flight.

You are competing with several thousand identical pilots, they are ten for a pound to the airlines.

If you love flying then why do you want to join an airline anyway ? Make a fortune in business and fly something fun at the weekend like an extra.

I would not want to do anything else because I still love the upsides of the profession but you need to consider the dark side as well.

FTG - 757 capt.

[bokboy22]

Get Rich, get property, get a rich wife.... get anything else but a license until you are finacially settled!!!