Caution: BAe146 Job offers at National Jet?

[HulaBula]

A heads up for pilots considering job offers at Cobham on the BAe146.

Almost all current pilots flying the blue tail 146s are employed by NATIONAL JET REGIONAL SERVICES PTY LTD ACN 125 615 152. These pilots are paid in accordance with the National Jet Pilot Certified Agreement 2007- 2012.

Ppruners may remember that employee certified agreement was the outcome of a strong stand by NatJet pilots in 2006 with lots of discussion here on Pprune.

It seems that Cobham has been offering employment to new hires on a different contract and a different employer entity, NATIONAL JET EXPRESS PTY LTD ACN 063 561 482, ABN 46 063 561 482. National Jet Express pilots are not automatically covered by the Pilot Collective Agreement 2007 -2012.

The pay rates and other conditions of employment are reportedly lower than the Pilot Collective Agreement. And reportedly lower than the Air Pilot Award 2010 pay rates and conditions.

It doesn't seem right, does it?

The Fair Work Ombudsman advised that applicants, having been offered employment as 146 pilots with Cobham, are entitled to ask and be employed under the Pilot Collective Agreement.

If you have an offer of employment from Cobham for the BAe146, it might pay to check the fine print.

[TBM-Legend]

Free country.

If you don't like it don't apply I guess...

[breakfastburrito]

And reportedly lower than the Air Pilot Award 2010 pay rates and conditions.
Is this legal?

[HulaBula]

Apparently so. If the new hire pilot signs the papers without asking the question.

Apparently Cobham has been advised that NJ Express was never a party to a previous Award or industrial instrument, so Transitional Arrangements from Schedule A to the Award can be applied.

Transitional arrangements were included in the Award to soften the blow for a non-Award businesses. Non-award operations ramp up from previous workplace standards to full Award over a period of 5 years.

But the Cobham pilots they will sit next to, employed by NJRS, have been on Award-or-better rates since forever.

If you are offered a job, great. Ask for the ECA.

If you don't ask you won't get.

[breakfastburrito]

HulaBula, good answer.
Ain't loopholes grand - soften the blow via "transition arrangements" for a shell entity that didn't previously exist, to lower T&C in an enterprise. What was that quote about no worker being worse off under the new regime, Julia?

[Skynews]

TBM-Legend Free country.

If you don't like it don't apply I guess...

Great, another I'm alright bugger you mate attitude.

All the guy was doing was offering " good" information to the probably unaware amongst us.

[TBM-Legend]

Correct, do your homework AND if you don't like the answers don't apply...

[The Kelpie]

I think Fairwork need to get onto this ASAP or we will see a flurry of new 'labour companies' springing up all over the place not just in aviation.

Think this may be the same loophole that jetstar are hoping to exploit when they have ex nz based pilots flying in Australia on terms that are much less than the award.

The Award is designed to be a safety net against exploitation of employees as it does not fix rates of pay it only sets minimum rates of pay...seems that companies have found a legitimate way to exploit this.

Introducing a new legal entity behind a recognised brand is Very Very Sneaky!!!

HAS ANYBODY RAISED THIS WITH AFAP? I WOULD HOPE THAT ONCE THEY ARE MADE AWARE OF IT THEY SHOULD BE ALL OVER IT LIKE A RASH

[flyingfox]

The AFAP? ......"all over it like a rash?".... You jest!

[HulaBula]

I think Fairwork need to get onto this ASAP or we will see a flurry of new 'labour companies' springing up all over the place not just in aviation.
Two points:

1. It seems that only an air operator that was both in existence prior to the new workplace laws, and had never been roped in to an Award, can exploit this situation. Not many of those lying around. A flurry of startup AoCs would be prevented in doing the same due to legislation governing Greenfields agreement making.

2. You cannot rely on Fair Work Ombudsman, the AFAP, your lawyer, or your mum to take care of things that are your responsibility and within your power. It is very hard for even well resourced third parties, to undo the damage done to individuals that 'freely' entered into agreements.

Hence the 'heads up' before the new boys and girls put pen to paper.

You just have to ask, once you have the offer of employment in hand, to be employed under the relevant Collective Agreement.

[Jethro Gibbs]

I think Fairwork need to get onto this ASAP or we will see a flurry of new 'labour companies' springing up all over the place not just in aviation.

To late already happening these labor hire company's are breeding like rats.:ugh:

[Skynews]

The Qantas / Network deal comes to mind.
What typeof agreement are the current Network pilots on?

Is this an avenue to employ Dash 8 / B717 crews on lesser conditions?

[fridge magnet]

http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/agreements/wpa/CAEN084663945.pdf

Pay rates are blanked out. Any one know what they are?

[beaver_rotate]

The place is the biggest IR abortion in the industry. I was one of 13 pilots on 6 different 'contracts/CA/AWA/EBA' and so on. Just over $60k a year to fly a 'jet' of 6 different series/engine configs/EFIS-non EFIS.... no thanks...

[AerocatS2A]

The place is the biggest IR abortion in the industry. I was one of 13 pilots on 6 different 'contracts/CA/AWA/EBA' and so on. Just over $60k a year to fly a 'jet' of 6 different series/engine configs/EFIS-non EFIS.... no thanks...
And yet you still flew for them. So the conditions must have been good enough for you. If they were good enough for you they'll be good enough for many more after you and so the cycle continues.

[Skynews]

And yet you still flew for them
Exactly, and here in lies the problem.

Pilots can be the weakest of people, accepting unacceptable terms and conditions and soon after placing the blame squarely at the feet of the company or their collegues for not ensuring better terms were on offer.

As I have said on another thread, nothing will change as pilots are too egotistical, too lazy and often expect the rest of the world too solve their problems. Pilots can't be trusted to help themselves.

If you accept a job on crap terms, live with it. If you are mislead then there are avenues to address the problem, so, address it, otherwise shut up.

[cunninglinguist]

" took a stand in 2006 "
Slider, you crack me up, you really do .

Would that be the stand that saw 12-14 year pilots pay for 1/2 their training,
to take a paycut for flying a bigger aircraft, or my favourite : new joiners get 20% less than everyone else for 5 years.
Sorry, which stand was that again.

Good luck with Un-fair work, another WOFTAM gov dept.

[beaver_rotate]

It was one big stepping stones ladies. I took it for what it was, exactly that; the best I could get at the time (post world going broke) and I moved to the other side of the country, worked pulling coffees on the side to live comfortably in probably oz's most expensive city and then I voted with my feet to greener pastures.

I've no doubt it was probably the easiest job I have had to date, yet all I am saying is they create so much unrest amongst the troops (both tech and cabin) and an "us against them" culture through their myriad of contracts/T+C's. Yet they cannot see it and wonder why the whole world is against them??

[Metro man]

new joiners get 20% less than everyone else for 5 years.

Meaning that they effectively work a whole year for nothing if they stay five years. :eek:

[Normasars]

Beaver,

Hope your new gig is going ok mate. But please don't tell me/us that Cobham is the worst in the industry. Having spent over a decade with "THE SPIRIT OF OZ", I can tell you that the latter is at the cutting edge of the erosion/exploitation of workplace awards. After all, take a look around here(Pprune) and see exactly which operator is denigrated to the sewer of our industry. And after all, how many AOCs does this Spirit want/need? If you think that the acquisition of Network was solely for the purpose of FIFO, I think one is being very niave. This could very well be the new greenfields operation to fly mainline a/c at Jetstar T&Cs(or lower) in the future.
Cobham are nowhere near the leading edge of the wedge WRT dividing and conquering ala QF. Besides, are you not flying a B737 for MUCH LOWER reward than the incumbant operator?? Turn it up mate, I little hypocritical on your behalf!!
Yes, granted the conditions at NC are NOT industry leading, but there is much, much worse; @ $185k @ 50 hrs stick per month(at the most),for a Checkie on the 71/146/RJ is not too shabby IMHO. The world is not the same as yesteryear and the Mainline T&C's are a thing of the past and will NEVER be returned in this country at least. Oldmeadow Consulting are the yardstick for pushing the IR reforms to the edge of the envelope, and I think the guys and gals at NC can thank their lucky stars that this "consulting" firm :yuk: has nothing to do with Cobham.

Not a shot at you at all my friend , but take the rose coloured glasses off mate. We shall revisit our conversion in 12 mths when the novelty has worn off :ok:

Take care mate and Merry Xmas to you and yours.

[mince]

The problem is the pile of crap conditions of the new job are almost ALWAYS better conditions than the current job.

So I guess that means crap DOES flow uphill after all......

We need the crap to be cleaned up at the bottom first. More government support for general aviation would be a good place to start.

And this Cobham thing has been on the cards for a while, ever since they split the operation into 3 separate entities (and AOCs)..... Classic divide and conquer tactics

[AerocatS2A]

new joiners get 20% less than everyone else for 5 years.

Meaning that they effectively work a whole year for nothing if they stay five years.

Not quite. They start on 20% less and then get annual increases to match the "A scale" after 5 years.

[beaver_rotate]

Hey Norma.

Sorry mate I didn't think I was being a hypocrite, yes my situation $$ wise was difficult there AND in terms of "everyone else on the field" - well you know for the animal size it paid the least?" <in my rank anyway!>

My dig was mainly that with so little crew on so many different T+C's that my latter employer turned such a good job (not pi$$ing in your pocket) into a place of much unrest due to everyone being on different contracts (I have counted 6 contracts/agreements [or 12 including both Tech and Cabin??]) compared to circa 2004/5 trolley pushing when an entire crew was on 1 contract. We are all on the same deal here full stop. 1 agreement. And (possibly through my pastal/metro glasses) there's somewhat a difference... quite similary to the 'old' NJS of 2004 (maybe I had those glasses on then too?).

Anyway it's the not coming to work daily with "they're on this/did you know they work for this/new **** are gonna have to pay this" which was my argument. It was a shame and that's my dig.

That being said I know i'm here now because 'gods' do it for quite possibly 50% more but that wasn't my argument, I know i've taken the pineapple but it was the bluntest I could find with my exp. Sure "but if we all said no way, stick it! blah blah blah" but let's be serious... on paper to me it's the best of a bad bunch. 40% stick time (heck i'm lazy) for 90% pay of the silver (poor???) cousins. My intention wasn't to be pot-calling-kettle, i'm sorry if it came across like that.

Anyhow, merry xmas to you too mate, call us when your back in the box over here.

BR

[War with Inner Peace]

Only Pilots employed by National Jet Systems Pty Limited ACN 008 279 203 are covered by the NJS Pilot Collective Agreement 2007-2012.

Everyone else is on who knows what.

IR Abortion is a very accurate description.

Good news is, upon being employed, consider joining the Transport Workers' Union (WA Branch) and get ready to start two years of extremely robust bargaining!!:):)

Common Law individual contracts mean we don't need to wait until 2012 to commence bargaining.

The Management at Cobham enjoy shooting themselves in the feet on a regular basis.;)

Cheers,

WWIP

[BAE146]

......consider joining the Transport Workers' Union (WA Branch) and get ready to start two years of extremely robust bargaining!! Codswallop!

The TWU did sweet F%#K all for the clowns that joined up after training bonds and Scale "B" pay was introduced by the Sheriff of Nottageham.
Whilst I agree the management at Cobham do have a habit of shooting themselves in the foot, the TWU is not the answer. Donate your hard earned to the AFAP or NJSPG - at least it stays in house!

[flyingfox]

BAe146 you are wrong. The TWU didn't get a chance to help because the NJSPG went to water when asked to make a stand. They accepted assurances which vanished like morning mist as soon as an agreement was signed. The AFAP is completely docile and a waste of time unless you like endless hot air. Sad but obvious!!!

[CaptHairDryer]

Sorry but the NJSPG is in total disarray from my experience. Nothing short of lipservice and when not that, it's 2 x 60? year old men fighting like schoolgirls over it's direction. Wake up, smell the roses and get a grip. The NJSPG let this happen. The whole circus tent lineup. Full stop.
.
.
.

[RENURPP]

God I work with a bunch of whinging little GUTLESS school girls.

The AFAP suggested the agreement first offered by management should be accepted, (god help us).
The NJSPG disagreed and sought direction from other organisations including independant legal advice.
The TWU offered direction, that direction was offered to the pilots, THEY (pilots) chose the direction. Now while the TWU may not be the be all and end all, it did what the PILOTS asked, no more no less. They were prepared to take it further but in whose interest?
BAE146 Since when was the AFAP in house and dont forget they did less than nothing re the bonding, pay for training etc. Short memory.
The TWU didn't get a chance to help because the NJSPG went to water when asked to make a stand.
The PILOTS voted on the Collective Agreement, all the pilots with expired agreements, not just the NJSPG.
Went to water is your opinion, and like an arse hole we all have one and yours was on the nose according to the AEC vote, or are they (AEC) corrupt amd weak as well?
If the majority dont agree with you, bad luck old mate, at least 50% +1 voted yes, for the current agreement. (securely through the Australian Electoral Commision)

The NJSPG is in disaray, so what have you done to help? I suspect absolutely nothing. just another crew room whinger?
Being in the NJSPGC is like being the only tree in the dog pound.
Its in disaray due to the division being driven by people like you three who do nothing but sit on the side and criticise (it's there for all to see, its also obvious the division) the people who try, and do it not for nothing, its actually money out of their pocket.
How can any person/group make a difference when everyone disagrees? Impossible, its like hearding cats!
The NJSPG didnt let this happen, ALL the PILOTS let this happen, whatever "this" may be.

The new guys signed the agreement that offered them crap conditions, and with all your expertise, can you tell us all how the NJSPG should have stopped new hires being offered AWA's under work choices?
I'm sure AIPA, AFAP and all other Australian Industrial Organisations would be interested in hearing were they have gone wrong.

As I said the current pilots voted for their agreement.

Only time will tell who does the "ROBUST" bargaining and how it goes. At the end of the day if the TWU does the bargaining for the majority, only management is to blame, they have not lived up to their promises, and expectations are being raised, I suspect a bumpy road ahead.
So be it.

Hairdryer, you must be way out of touch, who were the 2 x 60 yr old men, the oldest on either side was probable 50 most in their 30's. Just an indication of your level of support, interest, inclusion, did you ever meet or speak to a NJSPG committee member during that time frame?

Thanks to the current NJSPGC members, whatever happens will be the responsibility of all the pilots.
You can offer advice, speak to management, all the hard work, we, the pilots will take the final vote and we will have to live with OUR decision. Thanks

[Icarus2001]

RENURPP is correct but only to a point. All union or pilot reps are only as strong as the pilot body they represent. However, it depends how vocal and proactive the reps are as to the attitude of the pilot body. The reps need to COMMUNICATE with their members about issues and show evidence of DISCUSSIONS with management on the myriad of issues. The reps need to show leadership and drive the agenda not wait for the pilots to do it.

I agree it is a thankless task to take on the role. Which makes some pilots question the motives of certain reps for taking on such a difficult and time consuming unpaid task. Why would they want to do it? Some people have been known to become reps then sell out the pilot body to management for their own gain, almost unbelieveable I know but it happens.

New hires need to seek advice from incumbents before signing anything otherwise face years of regret at a quick decision.

[cone zone]

"Future Horizons" even just typing the words sends a shiver down my spine. It put the company back into the dark ages as far as HR goes.:*

[RENURPP]

Thanks Icarus I agree it is up to the PG reps to communicate, however at a base level you get what you vote for. I remember request after request for base reps to add to the monthly news letter. (that is the main form of communication apart from word of mouth)
The same people put time and effort in, others did nothing but turn up to the talk fests. Little preparation and little to add. I suspect the same happened within their base. I have no idea what drove them to nominate in the first place. It certainly wasn't to make a difference.

The pilots nominate and vote for their rep, if their rep isn't living up to their expectations they can either nominate them selves (hahaha unlikely) or encourage some one who will do the job to accept a nomination. Perth being the classic example (the largest base, the most whinges), no one could be bothered nominating, so they ended up with a Cairns pilot representing them, good work boys! Now where are BAE146, flyingfox et all based?
Brisbane, Adelaide had no one for a long time. Not even any one to distribute the info.

The reality is rather than risk being seen by management as a trouble maker they get on pprune, as it is anonymous, and have a bitch about why their colleagues haven't made their life better.

"Future Horizons" even just typing the words sends a shiver down my spine. It put the company back into the dark ages as far as HR goes.
Isn't that the truth.
The turning point in HR was the change in management. Whether you liked "smithy" or not (I did) he certainly wasn't of the same ilk as his predecessors, nor was DM. I have no idea of her financial management skills, her ability to work with her subordinates was streets ahead of the latest bunch.

[flyingfox]

Dear RENURPP. Sounds like your the same guy who lobbied me hard to NOT vote for legal industrial action. The same NJSPG senior member who spent hours on the phone trying to undo the legal path the pilots were willing to follow. The vote was a much lobbied sham which lent on juniour pilots to cave in to the NJSPG's 'going to water'. And the person I refer to made it clear that anything he said on the phone he would deny if questioned about it later. What a great pilot group we had!! Get lost!!

[War with Inner Peace]

Facts

In 2007 the NJSPGC was engaged to secure four items against the tide of Future Horizons;

Collective Agreement,
Retain CPI annual increases,
Reduce overtime limit from 77hrs to 75hrs, and
Increase Captain's Salary by $1000 (F/O by $600).The last two items had been concessions made by a different committee in 2005.

Also, we were asked to see what we could do about B-scale Pilots who had signed, crappy, 5-year AWA (workchoices)

Ultimately, we were able to have those AWAs scrapped and have the B-Scale go onto the Collective Agreement with all the benefits albeit not the A-Scale pay. That was a P.S. Extra.

During 2007 we (NJSPGC) spent an average of 5hrs per day for about 11 months to achieve those items.

We engaged the TWU and in order to achieve these outcomes we had the ability to, but had not yet used, conduct protected industrial action.

After much argy bargy the company finally agreed to the four objectives listed above, in order to avoid industrial action and, therfore, an uncertain future with important clients.

We had achieved all that had be asked of us and the TWU thought we could get a Union Collective Agreement if we commenced some rolling stoppages.

I disagreed.

In this instance, I could forsee us going backwards in a big way.

So I exercised my right to secure the votes required to defeat the TWU's proposal.

Ultimately I was successful by the slim margin of one vote.

I take full responsibility for my actions.

Only relatively senior Pilots were legally entitled to vote and therefore contacted by me. No one was leant on. If you disagreed I simply moved on to the next person. I've never denied anything in my life. No need to when you operate transparently.

I am now absolutely CERTAIN we made the right call, in those circumstances.

Next time I'm pretty sure we'll need to undertake large scale industrial action to achieve our bargaining outcomes. Happy to do it if the circumstances dictate.

Since then, in my spare time, I have been a witness against the Company in relation to alleged breaches of the (former) Workplace Relations Act.

Collected evidence, in relation to further alleged breaches of the WRA, against the Company which enabled the first 12 B-Scalers to become A-Scalers.

Also, I have since rebuilt bridges with the TWU and I am now a TWU delegate working towards a Union Collective Agreement. Most weeks we bring a little more justice, for employees, to the workplace.

It is a neverending battle.

Facing down a multi-billion dollar Corporation, with your mates, is reasonably hard and then facing down a powerful union who wants nothing more than to conduct industrial action, in a politically overheated environment (2007 Federal Election), is bordering on extreme.

But, the 2007 NJSPGC did that and those guys are my best mates in the world. Never thought of it as turning to water.

If you do, thats ok.

flyingfox, your turn, please share an industrial yarn or two. If not here, then, give me a call. I'm not hard to find.

Cheers,

WWIP

[Capt Claret]

Once apon a time, not so long ago, the AFAP advised that a Collective Agreement was not achievable.

The TWU advised that protected industrial action (PIA) would put pressure on the company to negotiate but would probably never happen, because the legislation of the day allowed the Minister (Hockey back then) to overturn the PIA.

So, lobbying was done, a vote taken and PIA was voted in.

Bugger me but this brought the Co to the negotiating table and a collective agreement was now on the table BUT would be withdrawn if PIA was notified.

So, the PGC of the day did more lobbying, secured sufficient votes not to actually take PIA, and went on to negotiate an ECA, retention of CPI, etc, effectively setting the sun on the horizon.

All good? Possibly not but the best a group of volunteers could do. I couldn't estimate the costs to myself, in time, effort, out of pocket expenses. All for less than a handful of thanks.

Don't see or hear of any of the volunteers nowadays, just a lot of whinging from people not happy with their lot wanting someone to fix it for them. :(

[flyingfox]

To much Claret Captain. Your still being pompous!!

[RENURPP]

Dear RENURPP. Sounds like you’re the same guy who lobbied me hard to NOT vote for legal industrial action. The same NJSPG senior member who spent hours on the phone trying to undo the legal path the pilots were willing to follow. The vote was a much lobbied sham which lent on junior pilots to cave in to the NJSPG's 'going to water'. And the person I refer to made it clear that anything he said on the phone he would deny if questioned about it later. What a great pilot group we had!! Get lost!!
22nd Dec 2010 04:20

Flyingfox.
Wrong again. Its a habit for you isn't it?And the person I refer to made it clear that anything he said on the phone he would deny if questioned about it later.Are you telling the truth??? I suspect not.
from post 33 flyingfox, No mate that was me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You sit back on an anonymous website blaming your colleagues for your current situation. If you had got off your bone lazy arse and at least educated yourself, you could have made an informed decision. For goodness sake boy it’s your lively hood, do you wipe your own bum yet?
I spoke to the Darwin guys not able to attend the Perth meeting, gave bthem my point of view and advised them to phone the TWU for a balanced view. If you were at the meeting you would also recall I told all there that I didn't believe they would stand beside one another when push came to shove. I couldn't have been any more honest. Some people feel pressure to raise their hands in meetings such as this and once in the light of day reconsider their decision, and quite a few did. Peer pressure can be daunting.
The vote speaks for itself.
The vote was a much lobbied sham which lent on junior pilots to cave in to the NJSPG's 'going to water'.
Interesting comment. Only pilots who were both members of the TWU AND on expired agreements could vote, that has to exclude most junior pilots as they were on AWA's. Read WWIP thread above and you might get a small idea of what we were trying to achieve, and then go back to the newsletters which are a record of the day and you may understand that it was an inclusive direction.
The reality is that 25 eligible or so Perth pilots were at the Perth TWU meeting, Perth is not the company it is part of, I know some of you don't grasp that concept very well.

You are probably the type of moron who sits in front of the TV believing political advertising.To much Claret Captain. Your still being pompous!!

I have heard CC called pompous before, but you know what, he has the balls to stand up when required and say his piece, and quite elegantly. CC and WWIP you forgot the extra 5 weeks of days (fro memory about 2 yrs of days off for around 70 odd pilots). Neither the AFAP nor TWU were of help there.
As for WWIP, whilst we have different opinions of IR issues these days, he will stand up for his convictions, and puts enormous amounts of work in helping others, people like you. I consider both of them good friends and good people who tried to do the right thing, you, I don't think much of you at all.
What a great pilot group we had!! Get lost!!
Quite frankly I think you have more than you deserve already.

[Skynews]

This is an indication of pilot unity at its best.
How could anyone be expected to achieve anything in this type of environment?
The thread on Joe Eakins has another example of some who tried to make a change with little to no support from his colleagues.

[Hugh Jarse]

Clarrie pompous? Are we talking about the same guy? :}:8

[Arnold E]

You sound like my kind of rep.:ok:

[Cactusjack]

Hughie Williams 'received a pineapple' a fortnight ago and is no longer at the helm.

[Capn Bloggs]

Hughie Williams 'received a pineapple' a fortnight ago and is no longer at the helm.

Apart from the fact that he was an "eh, but" Queenslander, it sounds like Hughie deserved what came to him:

Hughie Williams and the TWU - ABC Queensland - Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) (http://blogs.abc.net.au/queensland/2010/11/hughie-williams-and-the-twu.html?site=brisbane&program=612_evenings)

On the TWU generally, I don't think anybody could reasonably argue that it doesn't get things done. An old mate of mine once said "pilots don't join unions for the hell of it; their employers force them to". It is a shame that we as a fraternity aren't treated with the respect that our qualifications deserve.

[War with Inner Peace]

Renurpp,


CC and WWIP you forgot the extra 5 weeks of days (fro memory about 2 yrs of days off for around 70 odd pilots). Neither the AFAP nor TWU were of help there.



Simply, not my win to mention.

Lots of great moments.

But, this is by far my favourite memory of you 'doing business' with the Company.

My quick calculation puts your win (No union support at all) at this;

70 Pilots (Mostly Captains at time of settlement) with an average of 32 RDOs each recovered by you.

=2240 RDOs
=Approx $860 000 worth of days off recovered.

You are, definitely, not on the Bean Counters Christmas card list.:):ok:

Capt Claret,

There is no better F#ck You letter writer and speech maker than you. Your elegance and eloquence leaves the poor battered recipient with no choice but to thank you for the pummelling received.

Combined, there is no-one I would rather have to watch my back. This has been just like old times.

Should we get the group back together and go back for round two??:eek::E:ok:

Merry Christmas to All and to All a Good Night!!

Cheers,

WWIP

[AerocatS2A]

While there are a few of you here (and no doubt others reading.)

Merry Christmas to my fellow Cobham aviators! Have a good one. :ok: