Pay Talks on 13th Dec

[okm]

So...

Does anyone know how they went? Nothing on AOA site either.

Thanks.

[Cpt. Underpants]

When we get updates, let's keep it out of he public domain please guys.

It's OUR business, not for the trolls.

The AOA website will provide updates in due course. No news is GOOD news.

[larrikan larry]

Ergo...
No Payrise is a GOOD payrise:cool:

[Harbour Dweller]

Excellent advice from Cpt Underpants

Let's keep this to the AOA forums only.



okm,

If you read the AOA forums & updates your answer lies in there.

[Flaps10]

I'm sure there will be a news blackout until after the negotiations are complete. Neither group wants to negotiate in the public eye.

That being said, I'm as anxious as everyone else about hearing some news. I honestly don't think that it will be good news though.

[LongTimeInCX]

Cap'n Undies - spot on.
Agreed, nothing on this site for the freeloaders and journos to read.
AOA forum and updates are just fine for the correct latest info.
Not a member? - tough!

[hongkongpilot]

Impasse again ?!

[Thrust]

Ladies and Gentlemen



SALARY NEGOTIATIONS UPDATE



As you are aware, we have been in salary negotiations all of this week. AOA Australia, AOA Canada and the HKAOA were all separately represented during the negotiations, and an independent Bargaining Representative from Australia was also present.



The talks have been constructive and this morning the Company presented an offer in response to the proposals presented by your Associations.



After several hours of detailed study and further negotiations, your Negotiating team was able to accept the Company's offer, which will now be presented to the three General Committees with a recommendation for acceptance. It will take some time, but hopefully not too long, for the respective GC's to decide on the recommendation from the Negotiating Team, after which the membership will be asked to vote on the offer.



More, detailed information will be circulated to you as soon as possible.



Thank you all for your patience over the past few months since we first submitted our proposals on salary increases.



John Findlay

Assistant General Secretary Professional

for and of behalf of the Negotiating Team for

AOA Australia, AOA Canada and the HKAOA



17 December 2010.

[Bye Bye Baby]

Hey everyone THRUST was the first, THRUST was the first he is such a clever little boy isn't he?!

[goathead]

Thrust IS A WOMBAT and G day worker.:ugh:

[CokeZero]

I thought a little professionalism would have been shown here? Obviously not!

[boxjockey]

Thrust,

You're an effing moron.

Sincerely,

Someone who hates you

[Dead Head]

I just told Thrust's kids there's no Santa Claus

[Katters]

No wonder we can never show the "united front" to the company. This is truly a disgrace and I hope you "Thrust" (or maybe"No Thrust" or Anti-Trust" would be better!) feels better.
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Cyclic Bob]

Thrust, what did you hope to achieve by posting essentially classified information on a public forum? Was it for the benefit of those free-loading non-AOA members out there? :ugh:

Internal communications, whatever the source, are not for general viewing.

I hope you apply more thought and intelligence to your operation because both are lacking in abundance here!

[raven11]

Everyone take a deep breath and relax.....

[Sqwak7700]

I'll save you all the suspense. It is a ****ty deal and it will either be rejected (doubt it) or more likely sugar-coated to make it go down easier.

The tone of the DFO update on Friday should give you a hint that it is a very meager offer.

Anyway, Raven said it best, everyone just chill a bit. :ok:

[arse]

5 - 4 - 3?

[Yonosoy Marinero]

Thrust:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x55/francoflier/Fun%20stuff/stfu67pieb7.gif

[Air Profit]

Fac, what part of 'shut your gob' don't you understand...? Just wait for the details, and THEN offer your wisdom. If it's a crap offer, i'll join you in throwing brickbats, but why even comment until we've seen the details? :ugh:

[VforVENDETTA]

Yep, there's definately something fishy about it if it's taking this long for them to make up their mind about it. The longer it takes, the more obvious it will become. Sadly, our golden chance to negotiate with the only language they undertand over the busy holidays is very quickly passing by. Think about it... How do the other work groups here ever get anything they want? Is it ever via anything other than hardball language (action)? Nope. Why would we expect anything different? Do we think we're special? They certainly don't.

[geh065]

Their minds have been made up, they are just taking a little time to write the explanation and newsletter that comes with the raw facts of the deal.

[Waterskier]

It took them a day a to make up their minds (Friday-Saturday) but so far a week to explain the deal? Just put out the raw facts and let the explanation follow.

[Flaps10]

Agreed, our biggest bargaining tool is (was) the Christmas travel season. CC won't have nearly the same effect after the holidays. :ugh:

[Nullaman]

With respect F10, going CC during the holidays would be an absolute PR disaster. The travelling public will know that all the crews, and groundstaff, are working their butts off to get them home to their families after the UK wx dramas. Take the brownies for that and keep your powder dry for a more appropriate occasion where families aren't directly inconvenienced.

Anyway I am very confident that we will get such a stunning surprise that the words CC will be deleted from our CX dictionary eh? :}

[iMad]

Come on guys....just let us know the offer already....

[Tornado Ali]

To the GC: Fellas, it has now been almost a week. Plenty of time to tidy up any loose ends. You can't expect the members to remain patient much longer. We have a right (yes, right) to hear the details. If something is not out by Thursday you risk a rising backlash. It doesn't matter what your reasons are for the holdup, it has now been almost a week....enough. Send us a breakdown of the offer. We are all grownups and can make up our own mind on what to think.

[4 driver]

There is no excuse for this delay or lack of communication from the GC.
I am beginning to lose confidence in them.

[Yeager]

They are out buying their Christmas hats :ok: :}

[treboryelk]

just popping out to get the SCMP, probably going to find out more there!

[Rook]

jeez boys, the offer was made on a friday + the holidays + these guys are doing this on their TIME OFF! I want to know too but cut them some slack. It should be out by today anyway.

[No-Wai]

Ok, I'll go with:

1. 5% and 4% rise in base pay in 2011/12 respectively, with
2. 2% rise in HDP for same period, in return for:

ANOTHER "one off" option to switch to COS08(11??) for RA65.

Any advances on this?!?
:uhoh:

[&&&]

34% payrise and another 25% on top of that due to the productivity increases that the CAD were paid to bring in, in CAD 371.

[iMad]

Its out, check your email my fellow members....

[freightdog188]

for the first moron to post the AOA Pay offer update on pprune.

[12wheeler]

Don't post any details here. Keep the non-members in the dark!! :E

[water check]

....just had a look.....words fail me....

[AQIS Boigu]

don't post anything...don't post anything...don't post anything...
:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=

[Sir KDM Lowe]

Absolutely. Please don't post any details.

And let's not start slagging off the AOA. This is a 100% more than we would have got without an association. Our fellow pilots have tried their best.....and all of it in their spare time. Thanks for trying.

That said, I'm not surprised at the offer. This is how much the company values us. Same team, different dream.

[Air Profit]

An example as to why the offer is woefully inadequate: This from the Daily Telegraph, today in London. As a review of this commentary shows, we can expect inflation of 5% or MORE in the coming year in the UK. This latest pay offer doesn't even address the past TEN years of inflationary erosion of our salaries, never mind the hyper inflation that is about to burst upon us. If we lock ourselves into this inadequate 28 month deal, we will be even further behind by the end of it. We need to demonstrate now that we deserve and demand a proper pay offer.

"As recently as February, the Bank was forecasting CPI inflation of 1.5pc by the end of 2010. That estimate has proved to be woefully wrong. But it was clear a long time ago that would be the case.
Every single month this year, inflation has been either on, or above, the "upper acceptable limit" of 3pc. Measured by the far more accurate RPI measure, inflation has spent several recent months at 5pc or more.
The November inflation number was driven by the high price of food and clothing. What's even more important than the specifics is that, with the Bank's monetary policy committee having down-played repeated inflation over-shoots, the UK's inflation-fighting credibility is now being widely questioned.
Survey evidence shows inflation expectations just surged to their highest level for more than two years, a sign that above-target price increases could become embedded in the minds of consumers.
People questioned during November expect CPI inflation of 3.9pc in 2011, sharply up on previous estimates. And that was before oil prices jumped another $8 a barrel this month – a rise that will soon feed through into motorists' petrol costs, hiking inflation concerns even more".

[Air Profit]

For those of you who are 'inclined' to accept the offer, here are a few specific examples of what inflation has done to our salaries, and associated living standards:

From 2000 through 2010:

Homeowners insurance UP 108%

Gallon of Heating Oil UP 150%

Property Taxes UP 77%

Average Electricity Bill UP 50%

Petrol UP 140%

Medical expenses UP 143%

Potato UP 67%

Egg UP 93%

Bread UP 50%


Needless to say, the pay rise offered is NOT EVEN CLOSE to making up for numbers such as the ones quoted above. If CX feels they can hold back pay for a decade, then give a 10% raise....then probably plan on holding it back for another decade...then more fool us if we accept. They need to address the epic erosion in the true value of our salaries these past 10 years. Until they make an offer that does that, then we must reject any half way offers.

[third floor whore]

To Air Profit

how do you forsee things playing out if the deal is knocked back?.
Do you think we should go straight into contract compliance, or give the company a brief opportunity to raise the offer?

From chatting to guys, I think its going to be about 50/50. Most guys seem torn between taking what they can get, whilst at the same time knowing its a sh!t deal.

[Air Profit]

...it's the constant acceptance of sh#t deals and sh#t treatment that has led us to the place we are currently at. Answers the question I think..

[The Wraith]

Well it's a NO from me.
Let's see how they like CC when they are already a hundred or so pilots short now...:yuk:

[pasa001]

It's a no for me as well!!

[Steve the Pirate]

Waah, sorry pasa, are you sure about that? Didn't you answer your phone on a G day??

[bugsquash1]

don't post anything...don't post anything...don't post anything...

Don't worry it was only in the SCMP and less people read that than pprune right?:E

[pasa001]

So what does that have to do with my vote? I answered the phone on a G day but I would never go to work. Never have never will!!

[Hoofharted]

Your Cathay, You'll just roll over and take it up the arse like you always have. Piss and wind. :ugh:

[markontop]

Hi Hoof, is it your Cathay, or my Cathay,or their Cathay? Or maybe,:( you're in a situation where you should had paid more attention to your English lessons at school.

[Hoofharted]

Well Mark, it could be argued that "all of the above" are correct. But hey - the accuracy of the sentiment expeessed still remains regardless of the level of my education. :ok:

[bobble]

Sometimes I wonder at the age and maturity level of people who post here. I just hope that the infantile corrections to grammar etc are not coming from pilots but from their children perhaps. Back to the post. Don't you think Cathay management would love you to vote NO? Then, as has happened a few times previously, nothing is given and it will take another ten years to start clawing a bit back. Take the money offered guys and then in due course look for a more equitable increase. CC etc frightens no one.

[routetuner]

Don't accept the offer. This shoud be an increase in pay to EVERYONE, with no riders , not "we will give you this for that"- it should be a straight pay increase - simple! These people are sh!t scared of CC, now is the time to go for the throat and get back what we are entitled to. They isolate goups whom they think have no support (A scale), who will be next? It should be a straight pay rise for all with no attachments NOT this pathetic offer.

[bobble]

That's it route go for the throat. But which throat, I wonder, will end up being cut? Given the historical record, world wide, of the almost complete lack of pilot union successes when involved in industrial action I feel certain that Swire management are quaking in their boots. My advice remains, take what you can when you can and then ask for more a bit later.

[scavengepump]

Bobble and other like-minded pussies - grow a set you pathetic wimps!:ugh:

[Captain Dart]

Discussion on this pay offer should be kept to the AOA forum. You have to be an HKAOA member to vote on it. If you are not, you are irrelevant to any discussion on this subject.

You have a choice: join up if you are a Cathay Pacific pilot, or mind your own bloody business :suspect:.

[bobble]

My goodness but you are a sensitive little bunch. Whether or not I am or wish to be in the AOA is none of your concern, whether the pay increase affects me or not is my business. By the way Dart old chap, whoever in your tight little band of brothers is sharing information with a certain reporter on the SCMP has elevated this topic to the public domain - too late to close the door now. The letters to the editor will be starting soon and I would bet big bucks, if I was a gambling man, that they will not be very supportive of pilots. Don't care, I hear you say. OK.:D

[Steve the Pirate]

.....I would bet big bucks, if I was a gambling man, that they.....Shouldn't that be "..if I were a gambling man..", i.e the present subjunctive of the verb "to be"?

STP

[boxjockey]

I don't know why I even read these forums....

box

[Steve the Pirate]

box

You read them for the same reason as everyone else - it's somewhere you can get things off your chest, have an argument without having a domestic dispute, have a bit of a laugh and, from time to time, read a compelling, incisive, intelligent, well-structured post, not necessarily on industrial matters from our myopic point of view.

It's social networking under a different guise, the twist being that you might be having a serious difference of opinion with one of your best friends without even knowing it.

No-one's going to change the world here and it's highly unlikely that anyone will change another's point of view, although a reasoned argument might make someone take time to reflect on his or her position and make them think why they take that position - is it a firmly held belief or simply going along with the crowd?

That's why you read them.

Not only that, from time to time you get the chance to improve your English. Now, unless you read another forum on this site, your last post really should have said, "I don't know why I even read this forum..." i.e the singular. If you do read elsewhere on the site, some might argue that fora would, strictly speaking, be correct. However, I disagree and think that in modern English, forums is perfectly acceptable, so well done, go to the top of the class.

STP

[dean4689]

Or even past subjunctive.................

[bobble]

OK Steve, points well made. Even at my age I am happy to learn, or more accurately re-learn, my lessons.

[sorvad]

spot on Steve

[sorvad]

......bugger....I forgot an upper case s in spot

[jed_thrust]

Love it!

It's not "upper case", it's "capital". There are lower case letters and capital letters...

And of course a full stop (or period) at the end!

And don't start a sentance with and.

[sorvad]

surely you mean sentence

[Steve the Pirate]

jed is correct.

And is a word you shouldn't start a sentence with.

With is a word you shouldn't end a sentence with.

But (which, being a conjunction, is a word you shouldn't really start a sentence with either) back to the thread, I'm not going to tell anyone what I'm thinking otherwise I'll just exasperate the situation.

STP

[moosp]

Steve, I'll say it for you. If the FF forum has devolved into a pedantic language class then all must be well in the land of the Red Army.

Or is it? Has the company's technique of lowering expectations and then fulfilling them succeeded with the majority?

Even the average number of posters on line seems to have dropped.

What we need is another good reason to post! A streak down The Street perhaps?

[Steve the Pirate]

Good point moosp. On this particular thread, however, I think that most people are taking the advice of earlier posters and keeping their opinions either to themselves or discussing them where they should be discussed, namely the AOA forum.

As for the number of posts dropping, who knows? Maybe there's nothing particularly topical to chat about or people are exhausted by the discussions on the A380 versus the 747-8i or global warming.

Whatever the reason, I'm sure normal service will resume as soon as someone makes either an honest stuff up or a suggestion which might go against conventional wisdom.

As far as streaking down The Street goes forget it - it's far too cold!

STP

[Arfur Dent]

Is 'Spot on Steve' any relation to 'Seasick Steve' the blues guitarist featured at the Glastonbury Music Festival last year?

[Bon Jovi]

Just thought its worth walking down memory lane and thinking about all those deals that we were involved in. The offers only deteriorate and generally the first one is the best. I am fully supportive of getting what you can now and try to negotiate for more later.
I'm not sure how effective CC is as there will always be some who will not comply & what's to stop the company from chartering external companies which they have done before. Makes sense to approach this with a 'get what you can attitude' as benefits have been and will continue to deteriorate, Look at what they have come out with - 'C scale'!

[boxjockey]

My opinion on CC is that those who are going to do it, already are, and those who will not, will never. You can make the call for official CC, but I doubt it really changes the sums WRT crewing numbers, etc. The good thing is the more who do it daily put staffing pressure on the company, and perhaps in turn will begin improving conditions from the ground up.

box

[MilPilot]

What is the status of the CX pay Negotiations??

Is it a finished chapter or when is it expected to be a done deal?

I was kind of hoping they would consider hiring some DEFOs after they were done :E

[sioux115]

Wishful thinking my friend! Don't get me wrong I'm in the same boat, but I think there is more than just pay talks keeping CX from recruiting again. Cadet Program (cough, cough).:mad:

[MilPilot]

One can always hope they need somebody with a little more experience for DEFO on base hiring :E

Maybe if we are lucky CX will find the time to atleast clean the DEFO pool amidst all the cadet training :}

[boxjockey]

Sure, except for the simple fact that there are probably hundreds of us already here who want to have a base. Will be interesting to see if they are able to hit their crewing requirements in the next couple of years.

box

[MilPilot]

Sure, except for the simple fact that there are probably hundreds of us already here who want to have a base. Will be interesting to see if they are able to hit their crewing requirements in the next couple of years.

box

Don't understand why they haven't opened any FO positions up on base yet (NA). A friend of mine claimed they were busy and would definately need to hire on base shortly. Is he full of it?

So does anybody have an answer to my question?

[Waterskier]

It looks like the January payslips don't include the pay-rise. I wonder if they'll retroactively pay the January raise if this motion passes?

[Yonosoy Marinero]

So does anybody have an answer to my question?


Yes:
https://www.hkaoa.org/

[MilPilot]

And how does that answer my question? Obviously I am not a member ;o)

[AtoBsafely]

"Obviously I am not a member ;o)"

Well then, obviously it is not your business.

[MilPilot]

Give me break :ugh::ugh::ugh: I am not a member because I am not yet employed by CX. I just want to know when you guys are expecting to have things figured out.

[Sir KDM Lowe]

The simple answer to your question is no, we don't know what's going to happen on the manning side this year with the bases. And as my colleague has already pointed out, we have plenty of experienced FO's and SO' looking for a base.

I don't think I could see any please or thank you's in any of your posts. So sorry if we all didn't offer an answer quickly enough for you.

Good luck.

[Yonosoy Marinero]

Obviously I am not a member


My point exactly.

Until you manage to join, I can't see why this would be of any interest to you. The payrise, if any, will be reflected in the hypothetical offer the company would give you should they start hiring DEFOs again.
And if you do manage to join, you know what to do. ;)

[MilPilot]

Sorry for not being humble enough :p

My original question was just:

What is the status of the CX pay Negotiations??

The reason for the interest is not so much the exact terms, but more, when they would be finished.
If the company decided to hire DEFOs again I would suspect it would first happen AFTER the pay negotiations. Hence the interest. Probably should have been more clear on that.

Thank you so much for being so kind in answering my questions - Can't wait to fly with such a great bunch!

[Yonosoy Marinero]

I doubt the decision to hire DEFOs is tied to the salary negotiations. They only concern pay and no other term of the contract(s).

It would more likely be triggered by their forecast pilot need and whether they can fill that with whatever Cadets are desperate enough to sign and upgrades. DEFO and DEC hiring triggers a big headache for everyone...
Anyway, good luck.



Can't wait to fly with such a great bunch!


Yeah... that.

[BillytheKid]

Hiring folks say that there is no DEFO hiring for this year. All FO positions to be filled by SO's. All SO vacancies to be filled by DESO or Cadets; however, DESO's are not currently being hired when I last spoke with them. Additionally, they are having a near impossible time finding anyone to take the package they are presently offering.

I would wager the CX plan is to hire only DESO or Cadets in the future on bases which frees them from paying Housing Allowances and such. If they are unable, then they will change I suppose. "Supply vs Demand" and "market forces" are cliches you will hear at CX on a regular basis.

[sorvad]

Mil pilot, although you will find a serious ammount of negativity from CX chaps on this often tiresome, odious and backbiting forum, fortunately they DONT represent those from the majority of pilots at CX in general, most of whom wont try and persecute you for the personal and career choices you might make during your time in CX.

Details of the pay talks whilst for the moment should quite rightly remain out of the public domain, will soon be available for all on PPRUNe to pick at. All I will say is when it happens, and you are making your decision to join or not, do not take some of the militant rantings you will read here as anything more than a small bunch of malcontents venting their spleen the only way they know how...anonymously!

[hongkongfooey]

small bunch of malcontents venting their spleen the only way they know how...anonymously!

Yeh, or you could do it publicly and make it an even 50 :}

[sorvad]

hmmmm.... the politics of 10 years ago...very relevant

[sorvad]

.....oh hang on ..there's a new book coming out...le'st anyone forget!

[boxjockey]

Don't understand why they haven't opened any FO positions up on base yet (NA). A friend of mine claimed they were busy and would definately need to hire on base shortly. Is he full of it?

So does anybody have an answer to my question?

I have already answered your question WRT basings. We have MANY pilots already employed at CX who want to leave HKG to go on a base. If there are DEFOs when so many wish to go on a base, then things will not be rosy in this part of the woods!!

box

[MilPilot]

I have already answered your question WRT basings. We have MANY pilots already employed at CX who want to leave HKG to go on a base. If there are DEFOs when so many wish to go on a base, then things will not be rosy in this part of the woods!!

box
You have ??

I don't think my question WRT basing had anything to do with FO versus DEFO. Here was my question:

Don't understand why they haven't opened any FO positions up on base yet (NA). A friend of mine claimed they were busy and would definately need to hire on base shortly. Is he full of it?

So does anybody have an answer to my question?

[GTC58]

OK MilPilot.

I give it a try.

Your question is asked frequently in fleet forums, for the reason boxjockey stated. Some CX pilots want bases and CX has to put vacancies out for bid and can only hire DEFO's for unfilled vacancies.

However the answer which came up in the fleet forum I attended in regards of NA bases is, that at the moment there are a lot of outstanding issues caused by onshoring and other reasons. No time line was mentioned for opening more slots on Basings or new bases. Your guess is as good as mine when there will be more base slots. However having said that, I believe the last Basings bid had 4 Capt and 2 FO vacancies in NA. So, there where some bases available.

If you are in the pool, call recruitment they might be able to give you a better answer.

[Bye Bye Baby]

I'm not sure I would hold my breath for any DE slots becoming available in the near future. The basings and onshoring are such an incredible mess.
A little birdy told me that Swire has become so completely exasperated with what has been going on, that they are sending a professional who has the appropriate experience to sort out the mess. He has been given 12 months to do it. Much better than having a secretary or engineer doing it.
Until they actually know what they can get away with "legally" I don't think they will be adding to their woes.

[MilPilot]

Thanks Guys - That's what I was looking for :ok:

[johnboyy2g]

As a new CPL, but a mature individual with an MBA and someone who has years of various management experience may I say one thing? To the CX pilots who are concerned about anyone else knowing what the pay offer is.

May I point out that it will become public shortly,

Other people do have an indirect vested interest.

What? Other people have an interest?

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, other pilots do have an interest. What you decide will eventually influence the entire world market. As has been pointed out, we have skills that with some BULL****e paperwork transfers from around the world. Personally, I think there should be one and only one world license....that would **** the CX cadet program! Or, everyone would be stuck with it...not sure which....:\

Thus, as a result, the actions that are taken here will in larger or smaller ways influence the general market for airline pilots, young and old.

Sorry to be American centric here, but it is rather like the UAW, United Auto Workers of America. When Ford would agree to a contract, then GM and Chrysler would end up with similar contracts, When GM agreed, then the others would end up with similar contracts. Which ever contract got renewed first, that was the battle ground, other contracts just followed the some path.

When the UAW started giving concessions back to the companies in the last ten years, guess what? The contracts all followed the same DOWN HILL PATH.

I know this sucks. It is unfair to spend years learning to fly, to spend tens of thousands of dollars to fly to start a job that is paying less and less in relative terms. It is INSANE in my mind to pay someone 24,000 USD a year to fly a plane that cost 40 or 50 million and then because at 24,000 they can't pay the student loans, they take a second job, they work 80 plus hours a week....they fall asleep or are tired and make a mistake and crash the plane...80 dead. All to save the airline 100,000 a year per airplane,,, 20 or 30,000 USD per new SO.:ugh:

Unfortunatly, the problem is, most financial guys can't seem to calculate the cost that are lost. They can show you what you cost, fuel, plane, interest, but not what opportunity costs are.

What is the cost of lost customers when you crash a plane, crew error due to being tired?
What is the cost of losing SO or FO after paying for their training? What is the cost to replace them?

About 10 or 12 years ago. A gentlemen in the US who's family ran an industrial company in the Midwest really looked at opportunity costs, at least the cost of replacing an individual. Understand this was a industrial company not aviation, however, I think it illistrates the point.

He figured that it cost 8,000 USD to hire a single worker. 8,000 USD. to hire a single person, and that is before the individual received specific training. His turn over rate was almost 30 percent a year! What did he do? He SPENT up to5,000 USD per person to retain them! Result, turn over dropped to less than five percent, productivity increased, he calculated that instead of costing money, the extra money spent really saved money!

What needs to happen is we need people in managment in this industry to realize the cost associated with turnover, lack of training and lack of pay at the low end of the scale. Really, how much would a ticket increase if we paid a little more so people didn't need a second job?

Well, that's my take
Keep you wings level and your tanks full!

[404 Titan]

johnboyy2g

Until the negotiation and acceptance process is finished it is a private and confidential matter between the AOA, its members and the company. Once this has been finalised one way or another then and only then may information be forthcoming. Until then you post isn’t relevant.