Air New Zealand Rumours

[alpapilot]

I've heard info from several people now which may indicate a major direction change for the company.

1. They've purchased one of the B747-400s from the leasing agency for $15m.
2. They may pull out of the B787.
3. Stick a B777 on the AKL-DFW route that Continental were looking at.
and, (a bit off the wall this, but,)
4. Stick an extension tank in the hold and run a B747-400 to Sao Paulo.

What does all this mean if true? My view. Longer term commitment to the B747, possibly even orders for the B747-800. Maybe increase the B767 fleet and renew it.

Are the rumours true? Any other ideas about what it means for us.

:hmm::hmm:

[dragon man]

Sounds alot more plausible than anything that Qantas has planned. If they cancelled the 787 order Qantas would probably pick them up. Im cynical, been around to long!!!

[Going Boeing]

Interesting developments there alpapilot.

4. Stick an extension tank in the hold and run a B747-400 to Sao Paulo.

The two problems that I see with fitting an ER style tank in the forward hold of a non ER B744 are:-
1. The potable water tank is located in front of the CWT and thus would cause some difficulties wrt fitting the new tank and integrating it into the fuel system (on the ER's the water tank was moved to the bulk hold so that the AUX tank sits immediately forward of the CWT & "jet pumps" transfer the fuel (almost 10 tonnes) to the CWT at the appropriate time) and
2. the weight of the tank and fuel would seriously eat into the payload that a standard B744 could carry on long sectors. The ER's have a freighter wing and stronger landing gear which allows a 15 tonne increase in MTOW so that the extra fuel can be carried without adversely affecting the payload. The option to fit a second AUX tank to the ER's has not been bought by any airline as it would reduce the payload.

possibly even orders for the B747-800

Now that aircraft will be a great revenue generator.

[Bootstrap1]

just a minor point Going Boeing the aux tank transfers fuel to the CWT using cabin pressure not jet pumps. I t pressurises the aux tank with cabin pressure which basically vents into the lower pressure CWT. On the ground if you need to do a transfer there is an electrically powered blower to pressurise the aux tank. It works but I believe it is slow.

[EW73]

Bootstrap1...
Sounds very much like the auxiliary fuel transfer system in the B737-700 IGW AEW&C airplane.

Cheers
EW73 :)

[allnite]

What happened to these guys and all their big ideas ? WHERE ARE THEY NOW ? Who was the fellow that ripped them off ?

[Going Boeing]

Thanks for the correction Bootstrap. As there are no "Jet Pumps", I take it that the AUX TANK FUEL PUMP switches on the overhead fuel panel operate valves rather than pumps? Obviously, the cabin pressurisation is quite powerful as during the latter stages of emptying the AUX TANK, the fuel is being pushed to a higher level in the CWT.

[The Green Goblin]

So can the aux tank be used for your depressurised calcs? Sounds like it would become unusable in the event of a decompression.

[billyt]

Use that fuel first like the tail fuel then depressurized fuel is not an issue.

[breakfastburrito]

IIRC AUX tanks where only a problem if you didn't get fuel transfer, leading to potential CofG issue having it stuck aft.

[EW73]

In the Boeings that I know, if the cabin should depressurize prior to the auxiliary tanks becoming empty, bleed air is the backup system.

The aux fuel is transferred first (after a couple of conditions have been met), into the CWT, and that of course is the first source of normal fuel feed to the engines.

Cheers
ew73 :)

[waren9]

Take it to Tech Log please fellas.

Back to the topic?

[belowMDA]

The story regarding them purchasing the 744 is correct I have heard. The rationale is the purchase is a cheaper option than doing an end of lease check and reconfiguration. This way when they are done with it they can park it and walk away....

I really doubt they will pull out of the 787. The only option on the market is the A350 and that has already been delayed and I suspect there is more to come too.

The other two I have heard as well, not necessarily in those specifics but the general thrust was the same.

[listentome]

didnt they just get rid of one or two B744's? had one on the open market for ages then took it to Roswell and broke it up last year.

[qantel]

Akl-Cns-China

Well thats what the paper said a while ago.. Akl airport owns 33% of Cns airport and pushing for NZ-China via Cns :cool:

[Sump Monkey]

I heard that the last of the RR 747's will stay in the fleet till mid-2012, with the GE's till 2015-2016.

With the 787 delays, and the 777-200ER fleet going in for interior upgrades, (each taking 7-8 weeks) Air NZ are running a bit short of A/C.

[moutere101]

Any indicators that now N.Z. CAA have implemented their EDTO rules, will NZ apply for 240-min. for the 77E to allow for IAH-AKL?

[moutere101]

A number of the routes that the 789 might be considered for require an EDTO of at least 240-min. The recently promulgated NZ CAA rules require 2-years at 180-min before applying for 240-min and another 1-year at 240 before applying for 330min. Additionally, I believe the IFSD rate gets tougher as the diversion minutes get higher. A "young" engine /airframe combination like the 789 is going to take a while to mature and some IFSD's are likely during the maturing phase. 240- or 330 min are quite a way off given the expected EIS of the 789.

[aluminium hail]

From YahooXtra website today.


There is further frustration for Air New Zealand as another delay emerges to the airline taking delivery of its new Boeing 787.
Performance issues are being blamed for the latest in a string of 'Dreamliner' issues.
Air NZ CEO Rob Fyfe says there are compensation arrangements which he can't discuss publicly, but he says the competitive and strategic risks of the delay are more of an issue.
"Where a number of the routes we fly only support a single carrier, if those delays result in another carrier emerging on the route before we get a chance to fly it, then we could get locked out of that route in perpetuity, potentially."
Mr Fyfe says Air New Zealand was due to have taken delivery of the 787s at the end off this year, but it has been put of until 2013 and there is a possibility it could be delayed further.
Air New Zealand has eight Boeing 787-9 aircraft on order.


The next delay won't come as a surprise to anyone. Here's hoping Fyfe and his team can come up with a plan for the future route structure without using the 787, before AirNZ misses the boat.

[The Green Goblin]

I heard ANZ were buying Qantas off Jetstar :}

[alpapilot]

Thanks for your worthy contribution to this thread, GreenGob!:mad:

I've also just heard that they're looking at the B767-400, which would do all but the Ultra- Ultra LH that the B787 could do, if it ever comes.

It is being discussed that if the fleet looks something like A32, B76, B77 B74 then this longevity pay scheme thingy could be a 'honey pot' as in outside dunny!

The reasoning is that with a spread like that we're better off with the system we've got.

[skol]

They have purchased SUH.
Reason may have prevailed because they're filling them up, the loadfactors are high, so it's a pity they sent one to the wreckers.
Qantas and Thai are refurbishing their -400s, in the case of QF, the programme won't be complete until 2013.

[27/09]

They have purchased SUH Did Mr Steven U H give them a good deal on it?

[skol]

SUH doesn't work for ILFC anymore, he's left and started another leasing company and ordered dozens of new aircraft.
ANZ probably got a good deal because ILFC is a subsidiary of AIG, bailed out by the Federal Reserve. Cash was required so I guess they needed to divest some assets.

[27/09]

SUH doesn't work for ILFC anymore, he's left and started another leasing company and ordered dozens of new aircraft.
When you say work I presume you meant owned

ILFC is a subsidiary of AIG, bailed out by the Federal Reserve I knew he had sold out quite some time ago, but I seem to remember seeing somewhere that he had become involved with ILFC again since the GFC. Perhaps this info isn't correct after all?

[DeltaT]

Do some searching around on the net.
Due to the unreliablity of the 787 thus far in testing, it seems FAA have said they will have trouble issueing a decent ETOPS range certification.

[27/09]

Due to the unreliablity of the 787 thus far in testing, it seems FAA have said they will have trouble issueing a decent ETOPS range certification.

Isn't this is what testing is all about - finding the issues.

If the 787 doesn't get a decent ETOPS range certification it will be a white elephant. I don't think Boeing will let that happen!!!!!

[moutere101]

My view is that if the routes are only viable with the 789 at ~ 120t DOW then they were dicey to start with. Routes to South America and the southern States of the USA will be non-starters for the 789 for a number of years until NZ can qualify to apply for at least 240-min. EDTO.
Seems to me they either apply for 240-min for the 772 and get started if the economics will work . If they are averse to this they best use a 744.

[moutere101]

I don't believe the ETOPS testing has been done yet. What Boeing achieve with the tests is somewhat academic So far as the NZL regulator is concerned it has to satisfy at 180-min for 2-years before it is eligible for 240-min. then another year before it is eligible for 330-min. I believe the IFSD rate starts at .03/100000hrs at 180-min and drops to .02 then .01 at 330 min.

[Taildragger67]

They have purchased SUH.
Reason may have prevailed because they're filling them up, the loadfactors are high, so it's a pity they sent one to the wreckers.
Qantas and Thai are refurbishing their -400s, in the case of QF, the programme won't be complete until 2013.

747-438 VH-OJR left YSSY for the desert the day after Nancy spat the dummy in Singapore, so there's at least one RR airframe available...

[plainmaker]

Just a passing thought.

Seems the ANZ decision to upgrade their B767 fleet may be a godsend. With new 773's coming through, and a distinct lack of 787's around for a while, the 76 will at least be able to keep their product sustainable.

No doubt the winglets are paying off big time. The lease rates for those not owned were put in place when Boeing was touting the benefit of the 787's impending arrival, so ANZ is not paying premiums for them either.

Pity QF seem to be heading in the opposite direction with the work horse.

Plainmaker