Thomas Cook recruiting

[mindstorm]

Just had an email from TCX and the website should open this week to pool pilots for next summer. Looks like 757/320 rated positions anticipated.

[ATC83]

Interesting...Any ideas whether TCX will be looking for part time contracts only or are these going to be full time positions also?

[mindstorm]

The email said they were not sure yet what they would be able to offer yet but that they could be perm positions.

[fastidious bob]

Any chance of Thomas Cook taking DEC's. If not what would be the time to command?

[Coffin Corner]

bob

I heard no, time to command about 10-12 years.

mindstorm, definitely only Type Rated bods? Any chance for non type rated bods? Is Mr Hunt still in charge of recruitment?

[carbheatout]

only Type Rated bods?

Blooming well hope so!

On a serious note I couldn't see why they wouldn't mop all those TR'd pilots still out there. BA and most others are playing that way.

[nick14]

Ah that's great news apart from the fact I'm only rated on the 73!!

Rubbish, anyway good luck guys

[mindstorm]

I would have thought it would be rated first but who knows how many are unemployed still so there may be jobs for others as well.

[Flaperon75]

Pilot job advert now live on the TCX website. NO type rating requirement or min hours specified (though priority will be given to those with ratings).
Good luck all!

[I'm Off!]

Can anyone tell me when the application closes? I'm in Canada and am unable to access the UK recruitment website from here, it just auto directs me to the Canadian recruitment site! Any ideas of how to get around that problem gratefully received!

Many thanks!!

[SW1]

Anybody know how many people they are looking to recruit this time round?

[DjerbaDevil]

Job Description


Boeing Pilot-03133

Description


Thomas Cook Airlines, part of the successful Thomas Cook Group, are looking for pilots to fill pool positions in anticipation of roles being available in the New Year.

First Officers will be assisting the Captain, offering support and advice on all aspects of the flight and help in making the customer's journey a special part of their holiday. You will need to possess professionalism, personality and loyalty and can expect excellent working conditions and a choice of routes/bases covering medium and short haul flying. In time, there may be opportunities for long haul flying.

Experienced Boeing 757 and A320 or A330 rated applicants will be given priority but applications are welcome from all pilots with the required qualifications as type rating training will be given if needed.

The employment terms of any positions will be subject to confirmation but may be permanent or seasonal, dependent on business needs. The selection process will be held in the New Year with and start dates are expected to be from mid February onwards.


Qualifications



Primary Location


North West


Schedule

Full-time








Find the latest vacancies for Thomas Cook pilots (http://www.thomascook.com/recruitment/cabin-crew-and-pilots/pilot-vacancies)

[Coffin Corner]

Do we have to fill out one application for each of the Boeing & Airbus Fleet?

Thanks

[VJW]

I can't imagine doing that - I just completed the Airbus one, even though I'm 73 rated. Presume if you're not typed on the aircraft they fly then it makes no difference which you use, as who's to know, should you be successful, which aircraft you'd be on anyway?

[DirectDIKAS]

Anybody know what salaries, T&Cs they offer for RHS ?

[Flaperon75]

Accurate salary info on ppjn

[Cloud Bunny]

This may seem extremely lazy on my part but TCX has always been something of a difficult comapny to research, I never seem to be able to find out much about them. They're a company I've had my eye on for a number of years now and I just may fancy giving this a crack if it makes sense.
It mentions in the add the opprtunity for moving onto Long Haul at some time - realistically what are the prospects for moving to A330 in time and doing some LH flying? I wasn't aware of any major expansion going on within the group so am assuming this is something that could take a while - in the same vein what do we think the likely time to command would be?
Any info greatfully received and all the best to those giving it a go.
Cheers
:p

[beardy]

With a few exceptions all Airbus pilots fly all types, if successful you will get LH. Of course this could change when the LH fleet replacement type is announced, but that will take some time to decide and implement. Time to command is difficult to say, seniority, experience and suitability are the criteria, that said there will be significant retirements over the next few years.

[Cloud Bunny]

Thanks Beardy, speedy reply!
That all sounds pretty reasonable - as a current Boeing Pilot I would be keen to actually get the Airbus on my Licence if possible so thats what I would be applying for if indeed you have to fill out an application for each individual fleet.
Just one other thing if anyone is able to offer some clarity. Looking at PPJN it states the salaries for F/O's and SFO's with the SFO salary being based on whether you have achieved the ATPL or not. As an ATPL holder and a new joiner would you go straight onto the SFO's salary?
Again, most appreciative for any info.
Cheers

[763 jock]

If you want LH, then you really need a MAN or LGW base as most regional based pilots do not fly the A330 or B767. The B757 is not flying the Canadian Affair contract in summer 11 and B767 LH is quite limited.

There are two 757's on the cards for next season to replace buses going off lease. Some MAN 'bus pilots are moving onto the Boeing, so not sure if many will be recruited for the Airbus.

Either way, the 757's are gradually being retired and TCX will eventually be an all Airbus narrow body operator. Company has recently announced a deal for 12 new A321.

[flyinthesky]

As a current TCX pilot, I have to say there are worse places to be. T&C's are good. Maybe not the best, but certainly far from the worst. Generally most guys are good to fly with. We still have a few old die-hards who seem to find it difficult to move on post MYT/TCX merger but they are in a minority.

If you are recruited to the airbus, then previous posters are correct that 330 is only available at MAN/LGW. If you do not have a 330 rating, then placement onto the 330 is on an as needed basis. Airbus F/O's are not automatically rated on the 330. Also bear in mind that LH is not the crown jewel it used to be. Bean counters don't want us lazing on beaches for days on end!

Time to command is certainly not short. There are minimal upgrades (if any) in the pipeline and whilst we do have a retirement bulge coming up, there will be c300 F/O's in front of you!

In terms of SFO rank, as long as you have 1500hrs and an unfrozen ATPL, you should be placed onto this payscale. That supposes that the company has nothing else planned. Most new joiners have had a couple of seasons as summer only prior to being given a permanent position.

Good luck to those that apply!

[Penworth]

Has anyone managed to successfully attach a CV or covering letter to their application? Everytime I try, it says an error has occurred and I need to restart the application. :confused:

[bluk]

I have managed. Pdf format and it works fine. Maybe they've got temporary problems. Try again later.

[Coffin Corner]

Penworth I could too mate, in MSWord format.

[Penworth]

Ah, thanks guys, must be just me then, will keep trying. Cheers

[timzsta]

I completed it all this morning. It accepted my CV in Word 2003 format no problems.

[757_Driver]

Any information avaialble on the rostering - days off, stbys etc?
I notice the advert says northwest. For someone who is in the south east and cannot move due to family and wife's career commitments what are the prospects for a) commuting and b) getting based in the south east (STN, LGW primarily)

[dbriglee]

Penworth!.
Same thing happened to me. If you read on with 'help uploading'it will direct you to an explanation of how to fix it. You need to add telex.thomascook (or whatever the website is) into your ''allowed'' list in internet explorer and it works fine

[Coffin Corner]

Mine took it in Word 2000 format too, I also used Firefox as a browser, maybe try that?

I am trying to get back "down sarf" eventually. Does anyone know how difficult it is to get a BHX/BRS/LGW base with Thomas Cook? Are these bases over subscribed?

Thanks

CC

[frozenpilot]

As far as basing goes Manchester is the significant base and they often run heavy so they can use crews there for the numerous 'W' patterns we cover during the summer. If it says Northwest I would bank on that, secondly Glasgow (usually undersubscribed) and then Newcastle very close behind. However, a third party is covering flights from NCL next summer. Gatwick is rumoured to be getting the 2 additions to the Boeing fleet, but there are a lot of summer contractors just offered permenant destined for any Southern bases. With BHX, BRS being small bases they are very difficult to get and there is no shortage of takers.

Rostering is pretty stable....... However a very busy program (most jets doing slot 3's) and ageing Boeing jets caused an awful lot of disruption to 757/767 Pilots rosters throughout last summer. I found from June-late October I had 3 days off together at best and usually 2 quality days. Lots and lots..... and lots of night Turkeys would also make commuting quite a drag. I would guess you may get a few days away from base, but you know you are workng during the summer!! It is what you make of it.

TCX is a great place to work, very nice people, very good T's and C's and some security.

Good luck.

[Coffin Corner]

frozenpilot

Thanks so much for the info. A couple of other questions if I may.

What is a typical working week for you guys in the summer (Airbus & Boeing), how many sectors per day etc?
Do you work standby days? If so how long do they give you to report after the dreaded phonecall?
How does your working month work in relation to getting days off at the moment? (do you finish on a late, start on an early etc? Or is that just Flybe?)
I've been told time to command is about 10-12years, is this about right?

Thanks again

CC

[Flaperon75]

I would guess from Frozenpilots post that he is on the Boeing fleet, as I'm not sure that I would agree that Glasgow and Newcastle are the number 2 and 3 bases in terms of size. Manchester is the biggest base, closely followed by Gatwick. If you are on the Airbus fleet you are more likely to end up down south as Airbus bases are Gatwick, Stansted, Bristol, Cardiff, East Mids and Manchester. Birmingham, Glasow and Newcastle are Boeing bases (+ Manchester and Gatwick)

I would guess that any new hires would be used initially to plug any outstanding gaps for next summer. As we speak about 50 contract staff from last summer who are being made permanent are being assigned bases based on their bid preferences. My best guess would be that after next summer you may be able move to a base of your choice. Certainly when I joined everyone was given first or second choice of base (although of course things may have changed!) They do certainly consider your preferences when assigning base.

I would say that during the summer you would expect to do 2 or 3 flights per week on the shorthaul routes, and expect another couple of standby's (where you have to be within 90 mins of reporting at crew room)

I agree with Frozenpilot that it is indeed a great place to work and T's and C's pretty good compared to most.

10-12 years to command is probably about right at the mo.

Any more questions pm me if you wish....

[Flaperon75]

Also - I wouldn't read anything into the fact that it says 'North West' on the job advert. I'm pretty sure this is just to do with the software used by the recruitment system and the fact that the Airline head office is based at Manchester. Bases will be allocated as required.

[SW1]

Any idea on how many people they are looking to recruit. Specifically for the Airbus fleet. Thanks:ok:

[Gi Dem Dub]

Hi Flaperon75,

Thanks for the infos.
Can you say how likely they might take non type rated pilots.
And if they do, what may be the deal regarding the type rating costs and the subsequent type of contract to expect. (seasonnal vs permanent)

cheers

[Flaperon75]

Gi Dem Dub - Good question! I don't have the answer to that. Not sure management do either until they have had a look at the applications they receive. I think they will only type rate people if they have to. If that happens I would expect them to bond people and offer perm contracts to keep hold of them.

[SW1]

Hi Flaperon,

Im rated already with experience ,to some extent, so hopefully that will put me in with a good chance. Are there many people leaving for new pastures?

[Flaperon75]

Not sure how many they will need. I think the plan is to have a few swimming in the pool in case fleet size changes late in the day as is sometimes the case. Also to plug any shortages at specific bases. But that's just my guess....
Not too many leaving tho there may be a trickle to BA, Virgin before next summer.

[Gi Dem Dub]

thx flaperon :ok:

[Iver]

Can someone discuss the LGW base? Is it true that newhires at this base would be assigned the Airbus and not the Boeing? What are reserve schedules like for newbies out of LGW? How much winter flying would a newbie expect (slow season)?

Also, do you get much jumping between fleets? Do Boeing pilots bid Airbus and vice versa?

[frozenpilot]

@ Flaperon, yeah my apologies I am on the Boeing and giving probably more specific gen for that fleet, which I heard was where most of next summers recruitment will be. When I say GLA thats the base which is very short for Boeing drivers as has been the case at NCL. They seem to look for people to go to these bases.

I would say on the Boeings @MAN operating 75/76, at least 3 flights per week. A LOT of night Turkey flights and I mean sometimes three on the bounce. If you operate 767 you may get the sharm night stop, either a clear day, or just the bullet. The clear day off down route often takes five days out of your roster and is a welcome break. Toronto bullets are a killer but its sounding like they are gone. In years past 767 has done week Sanford standby's to cover A330, so something may crop up again.

I did 5 standby's this summer and was called out for one, given 12 hours notice.

Flaperon is your man for southern base info, all I will say is Manchester is a bit hectic throughout the summer, and a nice relaxed pace for the other 8 months. BTW the day off payments can be very lucrative too!!

The outside Airline we used last summer was a Lithuanian outfit called Aurella, and its going to be them next year.

[NikB]

I've tried to access the recruitment site,but it always has a 404 page not found message at thomas cook canada site.Anyone else having this problem?is the recruitment closed for canadian?

[YYZ_Instructor]

A question to the guys that work at Thomas Cook,
Can 3100GBP be expected monthly net for someone with an ATPL and typed?
Secondly, say you get upgraded in year 5 (for example), do you go on year 1 Captain pay, or slide to year 5 pay?

Thanks for anyone who responds and good luck to all that apply. :ok:

[CABUS]

YYZ

With an ATPL you would go straight in as an SFO which gives you about 49k starting and with the allowances on S/H you can expect another 4-600 permonth before tax, more if you get to spend time out of base. On top of that there are day off payments which are excellent, especially if you were on the Boeing last summer. The payment can range from £400 - £850 per day and you can often expect AT LEAST on of these per month in the summer season. If you are on the Airbus at a main base progression to L/H will be on the cards and this can be very lucrative and can add about an extra 1K after tax to your take home. To give you an idea on a good summer month as a new SFT on S/H, take home can be about 4K+. Rgds command pay, the union passed a deal where you dont jump to the bottom of the Capt scale when you are promoted but I am not too sure how this works.

Best of luck to all who apply, its great fun and there are some cracking guys and gals on the line :ok:

[YYZ_Instructor]

CABUS,

Thank-you for your reply! Much appreciated.

[SMOOTHFLIER]

Although you should be aware that 70 fo's have just been added to the seniority list making 300 total these are the guys who have bided their time for the past 2 years with summer only contracts.
It would be highly unlikely that anyone joining this summer would be kept on at the end of summer 2011.
you should consider this if you are leaving permanent employment for a contract job which may take 2 summers to join the back of a long list!

[JB007]

Does anyone know the reason for the latest recruitment? Friends from within tell me CP Newsletters indicate no change in fleet size...

[carbheatout]

Thomas Cook Airlines, part of the successful Thomas Cook Group, are looking for pilots to fill pool positions in anticipation of roles being available in the New Year.

pool positions? What does this mean?

On another note do they give you a choice of basing if successful at interview? Can you take the option of going into a pool until base comes up?

[frozenpilot]

I had a chat with a management Pilot the other day. At this stage they want a 'pool' of suitable guys for the new year. I understand the way in which the Airline runs is based on Tour ops requirements. Lets say over the next month (crucial time) sales for package holidays snowball (excuse pun) for next summer due to the cold weather, tour ops may approach the Airline asking for another jet to be based at place 'x' or they may say we need an extra Sanford rotation on a Saturday. The Airline are very flexible in that they will move the Aircraft around bases to fill in gaps and increase capacity as is needed. So you may presume they just ave no clue what is in the pipeline but suspect a need for crews at short notice and it is much better to have these guys primed and ready to go. Incidently bookings are prticularly bouyant at present.

From the gist I got its a bit wait and see into the new year

[MikeAlphaBravo]

Looks like the website is now closed for applications. Massively over subscribed, or have they had a change of heart?!

[SW1]

I can imagine that since last Friday when it first appeared on their careers site, theyve had a massive amount of intereset from both Boeing and Airbus rated guys. Someone earlier mentioned a starting date of lae January/February time so lets hope they start calling people soon.:ok:

[YYZ_Instructor]

Still looks open to me.

[dbriglee]

Yeah it showed nothing about an hr ago.. but seems to be back... WEIRD

[DirectDIKAS]

Is there a rumour that they might purchase 737-900s?

[CABUS]

TCX selected the A321 a couple of weeks ago which is great news! So hopefully no 737's.

[757_Driver]

i've not had anything apart from the 'thanks for applying' email, but 'be prepared' is always a good motto, so anyone know anything about the likely recruitment process? Interviews? assessment days? Sims?

[SW1]

Interview with Management Pilot and HR. Sim check on B757/A320 for rated pilots. Thats from ppjn, not sure how accurate that is. Also is the 44 orders for new aircraft, now clarified as Airbus, true? That would mean they are looking for a fair few drivers:ok:

[757_Driver]

yeah - saw that - just wondered if anyone had anything more up to date?
44 new aircraft eh! Thats quite an expansion is it not? or are they replacements?

however I'm pretty sure that the 321 is no replacement for the 757 on things like sharm and some greek stuff, unless you want to leave 1/2 the bags behind or tech stop on the way back :E

[Superpilot]

Hi guys,

The new order is for across the group and will mostly be replacements for the aging 757 fleet which is becoming bit of a major reliability issue at TCX and other 757 carriers. One only had to return yesterday due to bleed air problem.

When it comes to the 757 vs A321

Performance/speed not everything. Reliability and fuel costs are!

[VFE]

So (again!) we have two conflicting peices of information on this thread.

Someone stating that there's no expansion in fleet. Others speculating on 44 orders.

Good ole PPRuNe!! :-D

Anybody know any more about all of this? I would imagine numbers applaying are in the 1500 range as was the case with other airlines opening their recruiting doors recently so good luck everyone!

VFE.

[Kestrel_Stu]

Someone stating that there's no expansion in fleet. Others speculating on 44 orders.

The Thomas Cook Group has announced a narrow body fleet replacement with Airbus A320 family aircraft (320s and 321s). These will replace existing airframes and are not intended for expansion. The replacement aircraft are destined for all four group airlines and Thomas Cook UK might not be the first to get them - it will depend on lease expiries and aircraft could well be shared between the group airlines short-term.

In any event no significant expansion is envisaged and the UK fleet is planned to remain at around 40 to 45 aircraft in the summer season. If i recall correctly we had 42 in 2008, 44 in 2009, 43 in 2010 and 41 are planned for 2011.

This can change in the coming weeks as January is the peak booking period for summer holidays and the tour operator may request additional capacity from the airline at reasonably short notice.

I would not be at all surprised if bookings are good then an extra 1 or 2 aircraft may be needed which makes a holding pool of pilots essential as they will need to train people quickly to fill seats by May 1st.

[VFE]

Nice one Kestral Stu - cheers!

VFE.

[Nightmale]

Don't hold your breath too much guys. This from the Chief Pilots newsletter published today.

"The establishment plan for 2011 currently shows that we have a surplus of captains and total number of pilots against the
operational needs for next summer."

There is a proposal for an "enhanced voluntary severance" package for high earning Captains. The take up of this will determine whether there will be any recruitment for next year.

[Superpilot]

Thanks nightmale, has anyone asked him the question why the job ad went live and why the applications page opened only weeks before this announcement? on what basis and who deemed that there would be a need to recruit?

I was led to beleive that traditionally it is holidays booked during January that give an indication of that summer's operational needs. :confused:

[SPLIT-FFMTCC]

Isn't it a prudent piece of management by covering their bases (pardon the pun) by seeing how the Jan/Feb package holiday sales go?

It appears to be a bit of forward planning opposed to the normal fire-fighting that normally goes on from mid March onwards.

[frozenpilot]

When I first read the newsletter it sent the alarm bells ringing seeing words like 'surplus' and 'severancy.'

However, further reading of the letter actually discusses how this enhanced voluntary severance is hoped to be seen as very attractive to the higher earning Pilots who wish to retire or go to pastures new. Funny old thing that final salary pensions are currently being questioned through EU law, the retirement bulge is imminently going to take effect and there are a small number of opportunities out there for people to 'go to pastures new.'

A cynical person would say this is no more than sound management from TCX in getting the expensive ones out and bringing cheaper Pilots in at the bottom. I personally believe this is very healthy all round as it offers senior guys a possible golden hand shake, some commands and as a result of this, recruitment.

The newsletter does discuss how the establishment will be confirmed soon, which was scrutinised just prior to the permenant offers being handed out in October, so surely cen't have changed much if the fleet is staying the same?? There is the mention of command upgrades and recruitment depending of uptake of EVS. One would guess there will be some interest and that things will be changing over the next month as mentioned earlier. I personally don't see the latest development as a write off for recruitment....

[757_Driver]

sounds like a reasonable analysis Frozenpilot, however doens't the law require a 'consultation period' even for a relatively generous voluntary redundancy scheme and then I'm pretty sure that you cannot recruit for a further 6 months after the redundancies. That means probably a minimum of 9 months from the start of a redundancy process before any new people can start, so although long term prospects may be ok, I'm not holding my breath for this year.

[beardy]

I don't think the law, as you describe it, impinges on voluntary schemes. The clue is in 'voluntary'; no posts are being disestablished, nothing is being forced.

[757_Driver]

I'm no employment lawyer so I don't know. But if the voluntary scheme is 'redundancy' rather than early retiremnent or just people leaving then I beleive the statutory requirements stay in place.
Anyway, I would find it remarkable if they recruit people at the same time as letting others go, especially as alot of the senior people leaving are probably the trainers!

[frozenpilot]

My thinking is that this is a cost saving measure more than a concern over surplus. Not sure whether there is a difference in legalities between redundancy and severancy, but the impression I got was to let senior guys who have had enough or want to snapple their final salary pension while it is secure can go with extra incentive. I understand such schemes are very beneficial to the Airline and repay themselves very quickly.

It could go either way. No takers then the Airline either carries it surplus for the summer (or takes other measures), or there are a good number of takers, any surplus wiped out and the possibility of recruitment, especially if tour ops ask for more capacity. TCX do seem to have a concern over rated, experienced Pilots so they may not be hasty in their actions as we are currently in a very dynamic period in Aviation, changing weekly.

[EllanVannin]

Frozenpilot, please could you elaborate on what you mean by "TCX do seem to have a concern over rated, experienced Pilots ".

Thanks

[frozenpilot]

Well towards the back end of the season permenant contracts have been offered from next year to this summers contractors. This is not because of a desperate need for Pilots, but when I was in the bar in Glasgow the chief Pilot said they were looking at the establishment and what effect the mass recruitment from the Middle East, BA's recruitment and other Airlines ie Virging, Monarch etc. The nature of their business is to be flexible with regards to the fluctuating requirements of the charter market. This means they may need to get Pilots up to speed quickly and the potential drying up of rated, experinced Pilots may make this difficult. Also, previous newletters have discussed dusting off the Boeing type rating course off and possible command opportunities.

This all leant towards a bit more forward planning so the Airline are not struggling to crew Aircraft next year. It is just my hunch reading the latest newsletter that the Airline is trying to reduce its wage bill and this could be a very good time for a senior Pilot to take a golden handshake (depending on whats offered).

Things are changing all the time and undoubtedly will, so who knows what will haapen..............

[YYZ_Instructor]

Yes, yesterday night. :ok:

[atila_101]

same in here, for a future holding pool. Interviews in about three to four weeks,

[YYZ_Instructor]

Looked generic to me.

[LilaJane]

Hi everyone,

May I know the general profile of the ones who got an email?

Thanks,

Lila

[McBruce]

For the guys who have been contacted, are you guys rated on their types?

Ah, I see your profiles say A320 family! Any boeing drivers been called?

[atila_101]

3600 TT
1400 Bus
2000 MD

hope that helps

[OLMETI]

Anyone Know About The Selection Process They May Follow?
Thanks

[green_aero]

i am A320 type rated with hours on type and i havent been contacted yet.

Anyone know if they still sending emails in the next days?

[frozenpilot]

People leave quite simply because their aspirations change. While TCX are a great company, the pull of a new life in the middle east will attract a number, other operators may offer better command prospects, or a better lifestyle (permenant longhaul/ closer to home). You would expect there to only be a few that will look for pastures new but the mere fact that majors are recruiting seems to make other operators react.

With regards to commuting, my personal belief is that for the 5 months (June-Oct) it will be very difficult. You often have only a few days off in a row, and these can often be impinged on by a night flight prior to. I personally found at Manchester in the summer there was a good number of random leave days, which were available at fairly late notice, and offered a welcome break of 1-3 days.

Hope that helps!

[kick the tires]

ID90's with a charter airline are not worth the paper they are written on. From memory, the flights are mostly full.

[Superpilot]

It closed nearly 2 weeks ago dude!

[littletarzan]

Anyone else got the reply for interview on 17th on the Boeing?

Anyone know what to expect in the interviews? Anyone attend the interview last year for the 6 month contract who would like to enlighten us?

PM me if preferred.

[Cloud Chaser]

Can we assume you are rated Tarzan?

Anyone non-rated get an invite?

[Jinkster]

I have been looking and never seen an application form. Is it still available?

[bluk]

Jinkster,
unfortunately for you, not any more
for approx 2 weeks as Superpilot said above
cheers

[737 Speedbrakes]

You not happy at your current place Jinkster????? :ok:

[bluk]

londoncalling2009, are you invited to the interview ?
Were you called by TCX?

[macdo]

good luck all the above.

Re.: STAFF TRAVEL at TCX. One word C##P. Getting C##PIER by the day and for new joiners, its particularly C##P!!!

Everything else is either good or average, so come on down an' join us.:ugh:

[littletarzan]

has anyone else got an interview for the 17th?

i am typed on the 757 with over 1500 hours on type just for info.

[homesick 2]

Thomas Cook is an excellent choice. However, since this is a rumor site I have heard that TC would like to send pilots to other TC companys during the winter season. Apparently approx. 100 pilots surplus. Never mind, go for it, but do not expect a permanent employment for a while.

[Honiley]

Waiting for a Voluntary Severance Package approval from the Board, this will determine recruitment numbers.

Expect no Non-Type rated recruitment and no 'large' recruitment...becareful leaving full time/secure employment to join the bottom of a seniority list at a charter airline, based on this winter, I would expect summer only to continue.

[Captain Spam Can]

It’s obvious what there doing....basically seeing if they have suitably qualified guys that will be willing to take a summer only contract. I think they will be asking at interview if you will be willing to take this. If they have enough qualified guys that say yes then they will offer summer only, if not then they will offer permanent. Good company though :-)

[frozenpilot]

If TCX were 'approx 100 Pilots' over subscribed they wouldn't waste the time or cost interviewing Pilots for 'potential positions,' as it is unlikely they will get close to that figure with a voluntary scheme. The e-mail that went out to those invited to interview said the company are 'slightly' over crewed for the summer and this was for a pool of suitable candidates. It also said they are not sure about what they can offer, permenant/part time, which I believe as Honiley says it all depends on interest in the voluntary severance.

There is little fat in the system with other group Airlines during the winter, apart from the Scandanavian part as they do more long haul during that period. They will probably look for contracts to utilise Pilots in the winter, like the skyservice one. But these always attract great numbers on a voluntary basis

[SPLIT-FFMTCC]

It's worth also considering that this year is the first for many that Virgin and BA have hired. No doubt some senior F/O and younger captains may take a step-back to take 2 forward (as they may perceive it). Consequently there may be more natural wastage than your standard year.

To see an airline do this in January is refreshing, rather than "all hands to the pumps" in mid May.

[pilot3103]

Just out of interest, has anyone not heard anything or have had a negative response? I'm rated 73 and not heard back if it helps, thanks:ok:

[Floppy Link]

Not heard back, 757 4500 on type, 9500 total

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

EVS due to be signed off by the board this week for upto 50 guys. If Questor in the Telegraph is correct, TCX plans to downsize capacity and fleet by 25% over the next few years.

3 330-200s are due to be returned to the lessors at the end of this summer for starters. The aim of the EVS appears to be to fill the airline up with cheap Captains and less expensive F/Os with a longer upgrade time to the LHS as a consequence.

If I was coming to the market at the moment as a fairly low-houred F/O, I would get my hours at Easy or Ryanair and go to the sand pit tax free for a few years (Emirates, Etihad and Fly Dubai all presently recruiting) and come back when the UK market improves.

[barclaysslave]

Do you think their current recruitment will include any low hour non TR guys?

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

I very much doubt it but will enquire for you. The non-type rated guys they have taken in the past came through cadet schemes such as CTC. Recruitment plans will depend upon the EVS take-up and the finalising from Tour Ops of this summers programme.

[Honiley]

From the 'Horses Mouth' - No non-type rated recruitment!

[barclaysslave]

OK thankyou both for the info :ok:

[beardy]

If Questor in the Telegraph is correct, TCX plans to downsize capacity and fleet by 25% over the next few years

Questor didn't say TCX, it said Thomas Cook, which is much bigger that just the UK operation: it also said aircraft, not capacity. It is highly likely that the journo was being given a pre-results-release briefing (probably in a noisy bar) and misunderstood aspiration for plan. The idea, which has been around for a long time, is to establish for winter level operations and charter in for summer capacity. They have never made it work in the past (apart from Airworld who returned the leased aircraft at the end of the season).

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

I hope you're right Beardy but the absence of a definitive statement now for some days on the subject from the DFO on the company website hardly raises the spirit does it ?

3 330s are going next year at present and the current order of 321s does not cover the number of 757s due to be returned to lessors does it ?

[Nightmale]

The EVS bids are now open. Seems like not a bad deal (18 months salary providing you have at least 24 months before retirement - equates to over £150,000 for a senior captain). Might be enough to tempt quite a few of the high earners.

[SW1]

Just got the no from Thomas Cook:{ didnt even make past the application screening stage.

[763 jock]

Nightmale. Where did you get the info about the EVS? I see that the bid is open but I've not seen anything official about the terms.

Thanks.

Edited to add TCG Press Release:

25 January 2011
Thomas Cook Group plc
Narrow Body Fleet Renewal
In line with the announcement on 1 December 2010, Thomas Cook Group Plc announces that it
has today signed a binding contract with Airbus. The agreement is for 12 new Airbus 321
aircraft scheduled to be delivered from 2014, together with options to purchase further A320
family aircraft from 2015.
The new aircraft will be powered by CFM56-5B engines produced by CFM International, a joint
venture by Snecma (Safran group) and GE.
The Group will remain a heavy user of operating leases and it is anticipated that the directly
purchased aircraft will be financed through sale and leaseback agreements with third party
lessors.
Enquiries:

Thomas Cook Group plc
Investor Relations +44 (0) 20 7557 6414 / +44 (0) 7974 160013

Finsbury +44 (0) 20 7251 3801

[EK4457]

Looks like the PFO emails are being dished out.

Hope you all get better luck than me.

EK.

[Drakestream]

Also just got the PFO email. Not the end of the world, was expecting it really. Good luck to those chaps who make it through.

[G-GOLF]

Me too, saw it coming though :ouch: - yeah best of luck to all ! We'll get there yet !!

[VJW]

PFO for me too, wonder if it would have been better applying using the B757 application as I'm on the 737NG right now. I used the A320 application - wonder if that made a difference.

OH well

[max_continuous]

Just got my PFO through, low hours, non-TR and can't say I'm surprised, but still always that little tinge of disappointment.

Best of luck to everyone.

[frozenpilot]

It seems a little stange that they sre sending out the 'PFO's' so soon as they are only just starting sim checks and sending the EVS bid out. How do they know the quality of 'sim-checkers' and the amount of people who will take severancy??

[max_continuous]

There is a line in the email saying they will retain details on file, so perhaps call people back in if they don't meet the required numbers?

Doubt it will low-hours chaps, but there's always that little irrational bit of hope.

[CABUS]

Everyone has their own opinion on whats going on however, I believe that they were mainly looking for chaps rated on the bus. I say this as a few skippers have moved accross to the Boeing and I know a few other skippers on the bus who would see EVS as a great opportunity to bugger off. I have also heard that there are a couple of bus bases which are short of a skipper or two such as BFS. As said before on Prune, they are just replacing older expensive chaps with younger cheaper guys. When it comes to 'sim checkers' I think the company can assume that most of the chaps who have got through to the sim stage will meet the standard required which I would imagine is 500hrs on A320 and possibly a couple of guys on the 75.

Best of luck:ok:

[londonmet]

Hi all,

Was this EVS available to FOs as well?

[bucket_and_spade]

londonmet,

No, just captains!

[Coffin Corner]

Just had the PFO email too. I filled out both the Airbus and Boeing applications, but the email is for the bus only at the moment. Oh well.

[VJW]

Perhaps, you still have a chance with the Boeing application then.

[I'm Off!]

Me too for the Airbus PFO!!

[Coffin Corner]

VJW I doubt it mate, I have a Q400 rating. Type rated only wasn't it that someone said?

[VFE]

Initial excitement at seeing an email in my 'inbox' from Thomas Cook WITH AN ATTACHMENT(!!) today gave way yet again to the long anticipated disappointment whence the one click of the mouse to open said email revealed another splendid PFO. Must say I was mildly impressed with this PFO as it contained quite a few words more than is the customary norm with such correspondance so the feelings of despondancy were tempered with mild concolation.

On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd personally give this generic PFO a 7. :}

[VJW]

CC I can't remember now.

Only wish I'd filled out the Boeing rather then Airbus form- not sure it makes much of a difference, but that was my mistake.

[SW1]

Oh well, lets hope Aer Lingus get back to us.....

[Muvo85]

Hi all,

I received the Airbus PFO today too.

1000TT, the majority on the twotter. I applied for both Airbus and Boeing on the same day so I suppose the Boeing PFO will come tomorrow :ouch:
At least they reply though, so many of them don't ever acknowledge applications :mad:

[McBruce]

So I guess they're still unsure on the boeing numbers? I filled the boeing application on the first day it was posted and have heard ziltch since. Any boeing guys been called or had any PFOs?

[Superpilot]

PFO as well. Oh well, here's hoping I become random interviewee number 3 for when they need to recruit a one-off starting yesterday! :{

[Happy Wanderer]

PFO email here too. If I'm honest, I'd all but forgotten about the original application :O

[Kyriakos]

No worries.....i have been PFOed for 2 years now ....so im used to it :ok:

[Burger81]

Low Houred, Non-TR. Applied for the Boeing. No PFO yet..... maybe its just lost in cyberspace at the minute. I'm sure its on its way.:confused:

[ldyypd]

I'm low hours non-TR and got PFo'd for the Airbus yesterday, but nothing for the Boeing yet...I'd imagine they're working out what kind of package they will need to tempt me away from my highly lucrative temp job.

At least they send an email...a lot don't.

[A320novice]

Also got the PFO yesterday. Airbus-rated with 300 on type.

Good luck to those that get called. :ok:

[Full Left Rudder]

Any noises coming out of the company yet about number of guys needed on the bus, what type of contract to be offered or which bases?

Happy flighting.

[nick14]

Im 73 rated with 1100 and applied via the Boeing application. Not hear a thing so I assumed I was in the bin pile. Just waiting for the confirmation.

Good luck to all who were invited

[123go]

I also got the PFO Email! B737NG + A330 rated! Oh well, where one door closes another opens . Good luck to the Boeing applicants.:)

[2604]

PFO also received for the Airbus with 1000Hrs on the A306.

NEXT!!!

[SMOOTHFLIER]

recruitment complete, summer only contracts.:cool:

[73addict]

Still no response for me though. Boeing driver as you may see! Not holding out for their reply.

[Full Left Rudder]

Smoothflier, the Airbus sim checks do not take place until early Feb. Are you referring to the Boeing selection being complete I assume?

Do you know if it is summer only contracts for both Boeing and Airbus? Has that been confirmed by management now?

Cheers :ok:

[Guy J]

I understand there are sim checks on the 7/8th Feb on the Boeing. This information has come from someone who has been asked to attend so should be reliable. Is recruitment complete I don't think so but it is worth noting that the largest requirement for pilots was on the 757 fleet and with these sim rides to come I would think more are needed. It may well be that recruitment is complete on the Airbus because there was less requirement. Good luck to everyone going to the sim.

[MrHorgy]

I used to work for them in the cabin and I applied for Boeing - still nothing, no letter, no email, nada.

Horgy

[hapzim]

Are they not offering volounatry redundancy with a reduction in 330 fleet, same at TUI I believe.

[Guy J]

Recruitment is still on going as far as I am aware. Boeing sims are running first week of feb. This info should be reliable because it has come from a friend who is going to the sim cx. TCX had a larger requirement for 757 pilots than airbus so it is likely that the recruitment for the airbus maybe complete but not for the 757 fleet? Some pilots I guess may be offered a early retirement deal but who knows really. Good luck all those going to the sim check.

[Bernoulli]

The Enhanced Voluntary Severance (EVS) is far from generous. Some will go, but only because they really want to already (to be fair that's a a growing number, due to the rubbish treatment of TXC Pilots [note: Pilots, notFlight Deck. The latter is attached to the front of the jet] by HR, Payroll, Peterborough etc :*). I suspect that few will be tempted into early retirement with this run of the mill 'offer.'

By the way, where was your MP this evening at 1600? If you care enough about your future in aviation to be reading this thread then you'll know what I mean. If you don't know then you need to find out and get proactive asap.

[Full Left Rudder]

Bernoulli, please could you expand on what you mean by 'rubbish treatment of TCX pilots'. I am considering joining the company, and so far the feedback from people I know in the company is good. Very good roster with reasonable pay. I am interested to hear your thoughts.........

Good luck to those MPs who did go along today. We are going to need all the help we can get from them!

[Bernoulli]

The airline is fine and a good place to work with a lovely bunch of people in the cockpit. With rare exception those working in the cabin are good too.

However... TCX is just a relatively small part of a much bigger organisation and it's the way we at the coal face are dealt with by HQ down at Peterborough that is so demoralising. Practices and procedures are imposed by diktat upon the Airline, whether they suit or not, in pursuit of a 'one size fits all' approach. The higher 'managers' at Peterborough are presently giving a masterclass in pissing off their employees.

The final salary pension scheme is being closed.

They have outsourced payroll to a comedy outfit called 'Accenture' who go from one cock up to the next. The latest fiasco is that we've just discovered they've been ignoring HMRC tax codes and consequently I (and many others) had thousands of pounds in back tax taken from our latest pay. One chap's pay was down £5k. No warning, no communication, just done as an administrative procedure without thought of the consequence to the individual. Phone Payroll's 'helpline' and you're through not to a lady working within the airline who may have an understanding of the issue but to a call centre in Bangalore. Ever tried to describe a complex tax issue that you barely understand yourself to someone thousands of miles away etc etc?

Travel concessions have been unilaterally slashed. Corporate yukspeak portrays the changes as a good thing, but they're not. Most of the ex MYT people used their diminishing concessions against holidays with the more interesting parts of the Group, for example Cresta. All opportunity to experience the more esoteric and better things on offer has been removed. We are now limited to the mainstream product and can only book these a few weeks in advance. So, in practice that means we're left with whatever bucket 'n' spade packages they've got left and can't sell. AKA 'distressed stock.'

To sum up; the Airline's fine but the workforce is becoming de-motivated by the unilateral actions of a distant and unresponsive Group. At least that's how I see it. Perhaps someone else from TCX would care to give an opinion. I've phrased it mildly but I can assure you that feelings are running pretty high.

Proud to work for Thomas Cook? I don't think so. (Airline in joke).

[frozenpilot]

I think its a very fair assessment. Another serious issue for people who wish to have a career with TCX is that we are sub chartering an Airline in for a second summer. Last year was on the premise that due to Sky service's demise 2 more jets were needed at very short notice. So why is the company getting away with bringing these Aircraft back for a second season?? Words like unsustainable, and the 'summer vs winter' imbalance are the excuse, but the reality is that the Airline doesn't need as many Pilots and the number of commands are being reduced. I believe the union need to stamp their feet over this one quick!!

What I will say in the company's defence is that the conditions and people are pretty good when we look at the behaviour of some of our competitors of the past couple of years, and the general T's and C's of some of our low cost counterparts.

[Full Left Rudder]

Thanks for the info guys. I am trying to build as clear a picture as possible before making a decision.

Having suffered working for a LoCo for a while now, all I really care about is having a good roster, with a decent amount of time off and a reasonable salary. In reality it seems that all airlines have management problems, including legacy carriers.

Would you say that TCX offers these things I look for? I have heard all the rumours, but how much can I genuinely expect to work on the airbus fleet in the summer/winter. Have the fairly gentle rosters of the last year or so just been as a result of the recession, or are they fairly typical historically?

Thanks again,

[Scallywag]

FLR, Bernoulli has summed it up for you. Novoa and his bunch of sycophants at Peterborough don't care for the airline or pilots, and so terms & conditions are being eroded year on year (as they are in many airlines). Our fellow pilots and crew are a great bunch to work with but you will find morale pretty low. If you're short haul only I'd be very surprised if you ever top 700 hours a year, unless you take day off payments which are very lucrative.

You will get what you are looking for in terms of rosters/time off/salary etc; AT THE MOMENT. Be advised that our "scheduling agreement" is what really protects us as we need around 5% more pilots to operate the programme than companies without those protections apparently. However, the management want to scrap the agreement, so we'll see how tough BALPA are.

It used to be a great place to work, not anymore, but the same can probably be said of many companies. It's all relative I suppose.

[Full Left Rudder]

Thank you very much for the insight guys. Trying to keep my eyes open.

[Mr.Bloggs]

Feedback from pals at TCX indicate a nasty and greedy upper management make their lives unpleasant and frustrating. Cutbacks in most benefits, incompetence in payroll has apparently led to underpayment to many employees, pilots included. Caveat emptor seems to be the watchword. Unpleasant outfit to work for. Stay with the locos guys.

[beamer]

Depressing to see that both the UK's major charter companies are suffering from very similar problems:{

[Guy J]

I have to say I find TCX to be a great pace to work with a good bunch of guys. I feel the t&c are good and I feel valued. I cannot comment on the recent changes to concessions but I used mine in november and my family and I had a wonderful holiday at a fair price. From my little bit of experience in the company I am sure the points previously raised will be sorted and everyone will be satisfied in the not to distant future. :)

[Flaperon75]

Just going back a step or 2 here.... Full Left Rudder is going through the recruitment and is asking for thoughts on the company as a new joiner. Bernoulli, frozenpilot et al. are giving their thoughts but I think they are comparing the t's and c's of today with those of a few years ago. What is really being asked for is a comparison to other UK outfits recruiting pilots at the moment, and from that perspective I think TCX compare pretty favourably....
Pay is pretty good (once you get on a full time permanent contract!!). Good chance for day off payments through the summer. Roster is stable. You are able to bid for base when joining and will get 1 of your first 2 or 3 choices. On short haul expect to do a lot of flights to Turkey, Greece, Egypt (!?), Canaries. This limits you to about 3 flights a week max in the summer before coming up against hour limits. Within a few years there is a good chance of doing mixed fleet flying on the airbus fleet. With friends at RY and EZ I know I wouldn't swap places.....
Again - these are the thoughts of someone in the company for a couple of years, but this may be more relevant to a new joiner. PM me if you want more info

[frozenpilot]

I believe the only way in which the loco's compete with TCX are quicker time to command. Fundamentally a sound company with a strong position in what is becoming a niche charter market (due mergers and capacity cuts). Yes there are a number of issues floating around concerning management, but when you look at the cut throat attitude of management in our low cost counter parts then I fail to see a benefit staying with them.

Pay wise TCX are very good. You sit on a pay scale for starters, which is an incentive. Day off payments are very lucrative, early start payments are another source of income, and now there is block window payments being introduced for more cash. The pension on offer is still very competitive. All in all I believe the pay is up there with the best in the UK.

With regards to lifestyle, you get loads of time off (bar 3-4 months in the summer) where you are only get your rostered ten days off (agreement dependant) For the rest of the year there is plenty of time off, Id say more off than on actually. To compliment lifestyle there are night stops which takes a number of days out of a week and adds to the fun. Most of your co-workers are good fun and mostly positive, so its a pretty productive environment.

Yes TCX is falling down with certain things, but what workforce doesnt have a grumble with their management at the moment. New joiners wont have knowledge of the legacy Airlines issues that were brought forward during the merger, so they will just see it as a decent place to work.

[Guy J]

The above post sums it all up very very well speaking from my experience. A good reply frozen pilot :ok:

[Mr.Bloggs]

Glad to hear that there are some happy campers at TCX. My pals are all older guys who have been in TCX and MYT for years, and they all are disenchanted with the company and the airline. One or two of them are more angry than is good for them.

Perhaps you happy chappies are a newer breed. Anyway, good luck to you all.

From my own vantage point at a loco, the airline business is tough all round. I'm looking at other options overseas, but even there the imported natives are restless.

[Full Left Rudder]

Have any of the guys who have done the sim check already (think Boeing only at this stage?) found out if they are in?

If so, any news on the type of contract etc to be offered?

[Cloud Chaser]

Here come the Boeing PFO's, that's me out for both, good luck to the rest of you

[TheOne83]

I'm out too.. :hmm: Good luck to the others!

[max_continuous]

Strike 2, I'm out (but trying to avoid the down...)!

Best of luck to all still involved.

[G-GOLF]

Me too, saw that one coming alright. :*

good luck all!

[Wellington Bomber]

me also, knew that was coming

[inner]

Got the PFO mail as well. What is your guys experience?

[G-GOLF]

Frozen and looking for my first job. Almost time for the IR renewal :ouch:

[carbheatout]

In excess of 2k hours 757 - PFO

[inner]

So they rejected a newbie and an experienced one? What the :mad: are they looking for?

[Floppy Link]

In excess of 4500hrs 757/767 - PFO

Hey ho :\ Onwards and downwards!

[McBruce]

PFO here too, 2000hrs on 737

[Coffin Corner]

PFO too, for Airbus & Boeing now.

[Bernoulli]

The Enhanced Voluntary Severance (I have some difficulty with the Company's idea of enhanced) package appears to have yielded 7 or 8 volunteers so far. There may be more negotiating quietly behind the scenes but either way, these numbers won't lead to much, if any, recruitment on their own given the Company's wish to both reduce the number of Captains and use those that remain more efficiently (aka work harder).

[VFE]

Boeing PFO too. Experienced on Space Shuttle and Concorde.

VFE.

[G-GOLF]

How much did the Shuttle TR cost? :}

[VFE]

It was astronomical!

VFE.

[EK4457]

Experienced on Space Shuttle and Concorde.


Neither are EFIS - you could not possibly cope with a glass screen. Obviously.

EK

[Deep and fast]

Space shuttle

But think how much fuel he would save in the descent!

I got a PFO for boeing also.

[VFE]

Terms and Endearment forum? Pah! They should start a PFO forum. Much more scope for conversation.

[Floppy Link]

In the good old days PFO was just an airfield on Cyprus...:{

[SolentFlyer]

Thought the Space Shuttle was EFIS?

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/space-shuttle-glass-cockpit2.jpg

2 more PFOs to add to my collection... 2000 hrs tp non bus..

[VFE]

I just thumbed through my manual (like!) and can see that the 'Shut' (as we liked to call it!) has a few glass screens. Found a PFO from Arse Hanging Out Me Jeans Airlines wedged down there too whilst I was at it. Ennit.

[spider_man]

PFO 3,000h+ on B757, but, London based.

Not sure I would be interested in a temp summer only contract in GLA/BFS if thats the only boeing option on the table anyway.

[EK4457]

Thought the Space Shuttle was EFIS?

They must have upgraded it since I did my PPL in one a few years back. Steam driven dials back then. Helped me get to grips with concorde for my IR.

PFO for me too.

Did they actually call anyone for interview at all?

EK

[Guy J]

I know of some people who have gone so yes there have been interviews and then sim checks but thats about all I know.

[Iver]

What about backgrounds/experience of people who have passed and are invited back? Any examples?

[Guy J]

mid 30's to mid 40's with a couple of thousand hours on type.

[EK4457]

So not 29 then?

Oooh, you little tinker!

[acepilotmurdock]

Got a PFO the other day...non typed so wasnt holding much hope anyway..the search continues :)....Keeping the faith!!!!!:eek:

[Callsign Kilo]

Any ideas to what the final numbers were?

Was it a case of rated 757 crews for part time contracts in the northern bases? Has anyone in TCX know of future recruitment or will it be a case of flexicrew cadets and part time contracts forevermore?

[frozenpilot]

Callsign,

apparently there were 4 summer only contracts taken on, mostly @ MAN.

TCX are in quite an uncertain position at the moment. Firstly, there are 3
A330's going back off lease at the end of the summer (these were previously used for the Canadian Affair contract which we recently pulled out of). This would in theory create a surplus of Pilots going into this winter.

Coupled with this, a large exposure to Egypt has bitten with the political issues over there and will hit the Airline. This has lead to a large portion of the flying program to Egypt being pulled and re-deployed. This means those Aircraft are now operating shorter routes and can therefore fly more sectors each day, and hence require more drivers. TCX is quite unique in that the tour operator drives the Airline and its establishment. At the moment due to other pressures and a slow economy people aren't booking and this could lead to a reduction in capacity for next summer. Of course us Brits will end up booking our holidays in the end and the company will probably be playing catch up as usual!!

To mitigate this voluntary severance has been extended until the end of the summer to give people more chance to organise their lives (unlike the previous 3 weeks to decide). Also the company have it on authority from BA that some 20 people are sat in the hold pool awaiting start dates. The future is very very grey, there could potentially be a surplus at the end of the year or possibly further recruitment going into next year. It really depends on people booking holidays and the company's perception of the holiday markets for the next twelve months.

Expect anything......................

[Callsign Kilo]

I see...

Thank you frozenpilot for a factual insight. Much appreciated indeed. We shall see how things develop throughout the course of the year - hopefully positively for the holiday operator and therefore for the airline. 20 odd moving towards BA hopefully pushes recruitment, however this seems to be an unlikely outcome presently. Shall keep my fingers crossed. A GLA/NCL base with TCX would be a handy one.

[theearl]

So essentially the same old same old. Year after year same scenario.

Tour ops rule the roost.

No real need for an airline is their eyes.

Sad but true.

[macdo]

Only partly true, cost and hassle is balanced by the benefits of being in control of the airline, so controlling the "product". Last year the airline was the star of the group, this year we are the whipping boy.

Frozenpilots comments are spot on, this winter might be interesting!

[OBK!]

theearl.....what?

Yes tour ops rule the roost...do you think an airline should be in control of a holiday company?

Same old same old....well...yes. Was it ever different? Don't see what your point is?

Heard a rumour that up to 12 aircraft may be leaving at the end of the year, with those who were made permanent...being made redundant which is quite bitter news if it becomes true. But like other comments, the leaders have said it depends on bookings. It all seems a bit knee jerk with recently promoted captains changing types, temporary summer basings being withdrawn, other options being added, leased aircraft etc. The management have asked people to volunteer for up to 4 days overtime per month, which to be fair is lucrative and there's obviously no obligation but it's another sign I think, that they're not certain themselves of the numbers they need for tomorrow, let alone the end of the year. We'll have to see what the cleaners say in 6 months

[Denti]

Pardon, what does PFO mean in this context? English is just a tertiary language for me so my level 4 apparently is not enough.

[Eurotraveller]

Denti,

PFO = please :mad: off (i.e. we're terribly sorry but you haven't got the job).

[Denti]

Ok, thanks for the explanation ;)

[theearl]

OBKI

Sounds like you enjoy the fact that tour ops can play with your future, leaving you each summer wondering what the next will bring. You cant force passengers to book, granted, but if tour ops could get the flights flown cheaper they wouldn't necessarily use to tcx planes. Expansion was always limited as all our flying was carried out by MYT, Excel etc etc cheaper especially LH.

"we'll have to wait and see what the cleaners say in 6 months" quite possibly and I hope for all that Charter doesnt deteriorate any further into a P2F / Contractor pit.

There is no loyalty between tour ops and the airline. (Sad but true). Have you ever been to one of the tour ops conferences as a airline rep?

[frozenpilot]

FP quoted on a recent webchat '' there certainly not be 12 aircraft leaving the fleet'' Apparently this is a rumour doing the rounds through engineers and has something to do with a 12 Airbus order for the group.......................???

Any contraction beyond the 3 A330's would be very small, they just need to justify the Pilot workforce for the winter. Also mentioned during the recent webchat was the success of sub-charters throughout the winter so that will support carrying pilots during these months.

There is certainly an issue being at the mercy of tour-ops perception of the industry. However, so far they have got things close to spot on for the Airline. It would just be nice to see them take a bit of a risk: ie expansion or new routes instead of constant consolidation and cost cutting.

As I said, I would not be suprised to see them whinging about a surplus come November. Equally I could see them recruiting in December.

[spaceman18]

Yes bookings are down, no surprise there. Would you book a holiday months in advance if there were rumours of redundancies in the air??

I expect bookings to pick up over the next few months, as people book holidays at the last minute having not been made redundant.

As frozenpilot said "It would just be nice to see them take a bit of a risk: ie expansion or new routes instead of constant consolidation and cost cutting."

Completely agree....a decision to cut back now could back fire next summer.

[SPLIT-FFMTCC]

I think its safe to say that the events in the past 24 hours in Pakistan means your average British holidaymaker will think long and hard about going on holiday to any Muslim country.

Combine that with the Jasmine Revolution and it gives aviation in 2011 another kick in the stomach when 6 months ago is was looking pretty optimistic.

NB Interest rates will go up .25% this month, mate who works for Ernst&Young gave me the inside track.

[macdo]

+1 re O-b-L. Its an ill wind and all that.

Personally I think FP and Co. have been extremely reticent about giving us any firm info for next year, that plus the almost disappearance of the Flt Ops management from public view leads me to think grim thoughts.. (again):{

[Nightmale]

split-ffmtcc

Your mate obviously has his finger on the pulse!

NB Interest rates will go up .25% this month, mate who works for Ernst&Young gave me the inside track.

BBC News - UK interest rates kept on hold at 0.5% (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13293991)

[SPLIT-FFMTCC]

Ha, he assures me next month definitely. He's billed out at £490+VAT an hour too.

[Narrow Runway]

Interest rates will stay like this for a good while yet. There is no UK centric inflation.

[EK4457]

Spot on NR.

An increase in interest rates will have virtually no effect on inflation. It is nearly all fuelled by construction, food and energy demands of emerging economies. It will, however, lead to around 17,000 UK home reposessions according to the BBC.

I used to work for a 'big 5' accounting firm and was billed out at a similar rate. My manager was on mega bucks and knew less about economics than a GCSE student. A long career in these companies simply means that they passed a few exams and kissed a lot of ass. Somthing I was not willing to do!

EK

[Full Left Rudder]

Can anyone on the inside give their opinions on why 20 guys/girls would choose to leave TCX and go to BA?

Having spoken to several friends at TCX it sounds like a good place to be. Obviously some guys would leave any airline for BA for the pomp/pride factor, expansive long haul flying etc, but wanted to know if anyone had any other less obvious thoughts on the issue?

Given the (currently hypothetical) choice between TCX and BA I would like to make an informed decision on what would suit............

Cheers.

[frozenpilot]

I would guess, chiefly for some security??

BA seem to have managed the downturn in the market both positively and in some way admirably. To the extent they have not made any compulsory redundancies and are now recruiting.

TCX are currently playing the doom and gloom game with todays interim financial results pointing at increases in losses throughout the winter. In the report our chief says a review of the winter program is underway to reduce further losses in coming winters, whilst keeping summer capacity. Now this could mean anything from the company trying to find work for Pilots in the winter, to fleet reduction and subbing out work for the summer bulge... Who knows! What is for certain they are keen to tell us how bad trading conditions are but don't leap at the opportunity to lead us and come up with solutions.

All this is now making Thomas Cook are negative place and people are looking to leave for a company who offers some security. Another reason one may suspect is the indecision towards long haul. Many Pilots (particularly younger ones) aspire to longhaul. TCX are currently reducing the long haul program and have murmoured at even pulling out due to a lack of a market..........

Word on the street is that 30+ packing up for BA now and many more are trying. Management will probably not even have to lift a redundancy finger, their negativity will shake the tree sufficiently. But in the meantime they will leave us all mis-informed and despondant.

[Eurotraveller]

FLR,

TCX is not a bad place to work, but it doesn't feel very secure at the moment. For FOs towards the bottom of the seniority list things are looking increasingly uncertain, with 3 aircraft confirmed to be leaving the fleet this year and persistent rumours of further reduction in fleet numbers next year and beyond.

Management are unable to provide any reassurance or denial of these rumours simply because everything is totally down to how many holidays the tour operator sells, and world events mean that the 2011 programme is still constantly changing never mind the 2012 one.

TCX will always have the problem of having a lot more flying in the summer than in the winter, unfortunately it is my own opinion that it's beginning to look like the airline will be permanently crewed for the winter with extra temporary capacity being brought in for the summer. I think we've already seen the beginnings of this with the Aurela/Mint/Astreaus aircraft which have been used to top-up the fleet in peak season.

Comparing TCX and BA is like comparing apples and oranges - BA is an airline, TCX is the transport arm of the tour operator and is subject entirely to its capacity requirements, which are seasonal, changeable and wholly dependent on whether or not the public are willing to spend cash on foreign holidays.

[SPLIT-FFMTCC]

It has always amused me how when things go awry in an airline, the first port of call is to the pilots asking for 70% contracts, pay freezes, winter sabbaticals, etc. and not to the commercial department asking them to take a similar pay cut until they find an adequate revenue stream for extra capacity.

[macdo]

Probably because the Commercial Dept. are all on Minimum Wage already!!!:eek:
Last time I was up at the Hangar, it resembled a cross between a youth center and a creche! Peterboro' = hundreds of call center operatives.

[CABUS]

Frozen pilot has got his finger on the pulse with this one. Job security! Thomas Cook at the moment is almost trying to get rid of the expensive, senior pilots with talk of a/c going and doom and gloom.

However, TCX are a bunch of crafty b:mad:ers and it wouldnt suprise me if the doom and gloom is becuase the pay deal is coming around again and after the last pay freeze and comedy value share scheme they know they could be in for a big hit.

Rgds LHaul, the most expensive and nicest 330s are definatly being prepaired to be returned however a few rumours are that one of them has already been extented for a few more months and that Canadian Affair has come back with a better offer. Maybe they are just looking for a better/cheaper deal on 330's to be able to keep canadian affair going? To back this up TCX are doing 8 CCQ's at the moment for F/O's.

It has been mentioned but what really annoys me about TCX is that they are almost afraid of competition. The routes that Virgin and BA are expanding into TC are pulling out of such as Vegas. I know loads of people who want to go there and book their own accom and the consumer doesnt think you can do this with TC so they go else where. I see BA and Virgin also are flying to Cancun in the near future so I can only image we have a couple of seasons of that left. I strongly believe that the senior management of TCX are fixated on package holidays and are not willing to move with the market. Yes people still want package hols, however there are more people who want to arrange their own hotel and just want a decent cheap flight which is why seat only operators are doing so well. I know TC have a website devoted to selling seat only but I doubt much of the market does.

CABUS

[macdo]

That ccq thing is a real anomaly, I wonder if AR let that slip out by accident or on purpose. Either way, I hope your analysis turns out as its doom and gloom everywhere else you look. I don't think one should underestimate the MENA effect. TC have invested much time and money in Egypt, and to a lesser extent in Tunisia, all for potentially non-existent All Inclusive customers. If they feel that MENA is a dead cat we are already contracted out on the short short-haul, what do you do with the fleet? Well, the obvious (but not necessarily correct) answer is to shrink the fleet back to 2005 size. Ie Winter covered, summer subbed.
So, there we have it, either sunshine, Canada and a future or 200 pilots out the door and a much smaller fleet. Your guess is as good as mine.
However, we might know more after today.

[SFCC]

Why today?

Do you know something I don't?:confused:

[nick14]

Word on the grapevine around the midlands is 27 airbus FO's leaving for pastures new, perhaps that might solve the upcoming problems?

[frozenpilot]

I know of 8 that have sim checks with BA also. It wont be exclusive for Airbus F/O's going either. I will bet my bottom dollar with BA dishing out 74 positions the experienced Boeing drivers will start going for interviews.

Just my personal belief: The 747 allows you to be based anywhere, get leave in the summer, stable lifestyle (as long as you dont mind long flights, ... ooh back to back night Dalaman's.... no problem!!). Good pay. Oh and of course some stability.

Or stay at TCX with constant threats and roughly the same time sat in the right hand seat. Many more from TCX will most likely apply as the bosses continue their games.

With regards to the potential fleet reduction/ winter capacity cut:

3 (rumour 2 330's going)
6 757's to Jazz ( no flight deck from UK)
1 767 doing Hajj for final part of summer/ early winter
1 757 doing Scandi-Canary runs with our crew.

This to me shows they have reduced capacity already and the fleet has reduced for the period. Of course the 'fleet review' could be a smoke screen to satisfy investors?? They now have to manage numbers. The are a handful gone with EVS, possibly a few more will go after a very negative, hectic summer. Some part year options will be taken and the company knew of 20+ from BA's mouth last month. Interviews going on through the summer. This will increase, possibly substantially from here??

While the middle east has taken a kick. Egypt is cheap, cheerful and red hot....... Its what the Brits live for!!!! They dont have many more places to go to get similar conditions during the winter. There probably will be an increase in trade just as soon as the media shut up and the fickle public forget.

[charlies angel]

Sounds to me like you guys are getting good backing and support from your senior managers at least.
I have heard that some airlines treat their pilots with contempt and see them as the problem and not the solution.Well done TCX:D

[macdo]

ahhhhhhh! the gentle art of irony!

Frozenpilots analysis sounds pretty good to me and I hope he is correct after all the stress of base closures and (what turned out to be no) involuntary redundancies a few years ago.

I heard 2 interesting snippets yesterday from outside the company, one backed up the Scandi-Canarias comment, but the other indicated that there would be no TCX operations from this base for three months during the winter and very limited schedule for the rest of winter. Should that be correct, it would indicate that either an airframe wasn't available or that the base was going into semi closure for the winter.

Rumours of Fo's leaving goes up every day, 30 it was! Anyway, good luck to them, the grass is just a different shade of green elsewhere.

SFCC BALPA - Management meeting yesterday. Yet to hear anything though.

[CABUS]

I believe most of the 757,s had their leases extended for a few years at the end of last season hence the bus skippers being pushed over to the 75 for a couple of seasons. The 320 fleet won't go with the choice to go bus in the long run, instead they will slowly be phased and with such a commitment to the 757 fleet rgds skippers and fins I'm inclined to believe that 12-15 is only a far off rumour, just the 3 330's and I think that's liable to change.

[frozenpilot]

Spot on CABUS. Even the MD went on record saying there would be nothing like a figure of 15 Aircraft leaving the fleet on one of the forums. He said it was something to do with an Airbus order of 15 that had been mis-interpreted?? An Airline which is (on paper) profitable shed 40% of its fleet in one hit, seriously...

I suppose if they do another Airline will pick up the slack because the industry has seen massive consolidation in the charter market already and we do manage to fill our jets.

[Full Left Rudder]

Saw a post on ppjn suggesting that recruitment is likely early 2012. Is anyone able to shed any light on this?

Any ideas which fleet they may need people for?

Cheers.

[londonmet]

Heard last week from a colleague at work that TCX are going to bin all of their A330's this year instead of the few we already know about.

Any truth in this?

[macdo]

Not true, this week!
All will become clear by August, so we are led to believe.

[Full Left Rudder]

macdo,

Are you able to shed any light on my previous post?

Cheers.

[macdo]

An incendiary first post CJMAN. You better be right, otherwise I feel a lot of heat coming your way!

FULL LEFT RUDDER, I'd be surprised if they didn't look at a few people during the recruitment season. How many, if any, are recruited is the standard sum of fleet size, resignations, retirements, promotions and long term sickness levels. I'd very much doubt if the FltOps management have more than an educated guess as to their needs at this stage. You'd best hope for no fleet reduction, 30+ off to pastures new and a dozen or so new commands. Although the exact opposite of the above is easily possible.

[macdo]

of course its likely to be cr@p, the rumour mill is rife in TCX at the moment and the management have done utterly nothing to stifle it.
As an example, I heard this morning something which would indicate a sudden and unexpected increase in LH demand this winter, but there is no point in putting on PPRUNE as it will probably turn out to be this weeks good idea and forgotten about by Friday. LH is in flux and you'll only know the true situation at the end of August when the indications are that the might be some important announcements about the airline.

[Flaperon75]

On a 'director webchat' last week the top man suggested that the current plan is a reduction in fleet size of 4 aircraft at the end of this summer season (3x330 and 1x320). This is not confirmed at this stage, however a permanent fleet reduction of this magnitude would suggest TCX would then be overcrewed by 70ish pilots. I would have thought that redundancies are more likely than recruitment if this pans out (even with some natural wastage)
We are rold the picture will be clearer by August.

[macdo]

Sorry, FLAPERON, that redundancy figure is absolutely unsubstantiated. 70 odd pilots was bandied about earlier this year, but it was just one of those rumours that came from someone doing fag packet sums on the pilot establishment. Its very unlikely that there will compulsory job losses as there are loads of bods leaving, considering their options, retiring and even one or two looking at career breaks. So, please don't start frightening people until the facts are known. i.e all the guys that got FT contracts this year.

Just bear in mind when MYT was really in it and many of us had 'job at risk letters' the actual compulsory redundancy figure was ZERO.

[Flaperon75]

Macdo - the figures are not unsubstantiated - the figure of 4 aircraft leaving came from the mouth (well, fingers) of FP himself, and as I said, this is to be confirmed. Aircraft are crewed at 14 pilots per 320 and 18 per 330, hence my figure of 70 pilots. Yes there are pilots leaving - current figure stands at 20-25 (including 12 to BA - most of whom are in the hold pool and not likely to be handing in their notice until next year.) So 45 to 50 pilots overcrewed. I'm not saying there will be 45-50 redundancies. I just said that redundancies are more likely than recruitment. I stand by that.

[macdo]

" 3 A330s and possibly one A320" unquote, makes the whole thing sound a bit less certain.

Even the 330 comment may no longer be valid.

Your own calculation is a fag packet calculation unless you are the DFO posting here anonymously.

Put your posts on XPLORER under your own moniker and see what sort of reaction you'll get. On here, even if you feel justified, its unfair worry people sitting at the bottom of the seniority list when neither of us have much more than rumour and maybe's to work with.

Personally, with quite a few years of observation of this company, it wouldn't surprise me if we recruited next season, I would be more surprised if they pushed anyone out.

Even the August announcement, which we agree on, we shouldn't believe until it actually appears.

[Flaperon75]

macdo - pprune is a rumour network - people share thoughts, ideas and opinions. I have been expressing my opinion, and to be fair, it has been opinion based on facts which is more than can be said for many of the posts on here. I let you share your opinions without criticism however misplaced they may appear to me.

What would be the point of posting my thoughts on xplorer?? I was answering a question raised by someone who clearly doesn't work for TCX.

Anyone who works for Thomas Cook will be well aware of the situation and have their own opinion on the likelyhood of redundancies - I don't think my posts will be telling them anything they don't already know.

[macdo]

If you had posted your original point without the comment about being overcrewed by up to 70 pilots, I wouldn't have taken issue. This figure or any other regarding staffing levels, have not been addressed by or alluded to, by anyone in TCX management.

This is a rumour network, but most people on Pprune don't make unsubstantiated comments about possible redundancies.

Anyway c'est la vie, observers will make of our discussion what they will.

[frozenpilot]

I spoke recently with the head of Pilots, who suggested we wouldn't loose more than the projected 3 A330's. There is of course a hell of a lot going on at TCX, which is leaving management unsure of what the establishment will look like. To qualify my previous statement. Yes, it does seem almost nailed on that 3x A33o's will be leaving (macdo if you have new light to shed, prey tell...). This, I heard a mangement Pilot say has already been factord into the Pilot establishment as the company pulled out of Canadian Affair last year and these were the routes the company operated those aircraft on.

Plans for late summer/winter are currently 2 A330's to do the Hajj for 12 weeks. One 767 is to be leased to Condor for 18 months with our flight deck, doing long haul out of a German base. One 757 will be based in TFS working for TCX Scandanavia. The company are now looking at the logistics of basing a 757 in Calgary doing Hawaii for Jazz for the winter. I heard about this additional work from ' the horses mouth' so to speak. He also said that we are on target for our winter establishment when factoring leave days to be taken, additional GDO's, PPY etc.

Also the summer program has changed significantly. I am already sick of seeing Palma on my roster, which has not been the case for many yeasr. So how will the increased number of shorter sectors affect the establishment?

We all know F P's glass is always half full, things seem to change so quickly at TCX, we are now not told how our bookings are going, so I assume quite well...... Based on the 'suggestions' made flaperon is right (however those crew levels sound a bit high) but macdo is right in that there is so much going on, people leaving (and we have so far only felt the effects of BA recruiting) detatchments, part year etc.

With a sizable payrise coming next year it is to be hoped, should there be a significant Pilot excess the company will look to be pragmatic and reduce costs from the top (a decent EVS, with options) hopefully create a few commands along the way and we can all play nicely..............hmmn............

[macdo]

FP thats a pretty balanced view.
A couple of further observations so people can see how things change.
On the Hajj, over the past 3 months that has gone from a single 76, to 76 plus 330, to single 330, now 2 x 330's with a base change back to Batam! Which seems the solid position which we can bid on.

2 Months ago the a/c to be based away was a 330 for Scandi and a 75 in TFS for Condor. All change again, sounds like fun whatever the deal!

As far as the 3 330's leaving, there have been many whispers over the last few weeks that, in fact it will only be 2. But yesterday there were some indications from the Tour Operator that work currently transferring over to another operator might not all disappear from us. This is two separate rumours, which was why I have not posted anything specific, but it sounds hopeful.

re. Your info on Hawaii, I heard from engineers some weeks ago, and I laughed as it seemed so fanciful, just goes to show. LOL

We work in an unstable industry in the best of times, but right now just about anything could happen. Personally I'm more concerned about the state of the tour operator than the airline. It looks like the tailend of the summer will be a sea of red ink, we can only hope that margins are sufficient for these cut price holidays to be sold with a bit of profit.

MIllions of holidays still unsold as cash-strapped families abandon plans for summer breaks - mirror.co.uk (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/07/03/millions-of-holidays-still-unsold-as-cash-strapped-families-abandon-plans-for-summer-breaks-115875-23242705/)

[frozenpilot]

Yeah Tour Ops really are a big problem to us!

Well if we do get cut loose from the group and follow path Management have suggested maybe we can develop a sustainable business and actually start challenging the Eayjets, Jet 2's and Monarch's.............

[macdo]

will we get to keep those shiny Ipad's though? ;)

[Desk-pilot]

This thread is an interesting read and contrasts sharply with the PPJN website that implies possible recruitment early in 2012. For those of us aspiring to join it makes for confusing reading!

Good luck to all of you in one of the few quality UK outfits left.

[Flaperon75]

Desk pilot - looking at the updates on ppjn, it seems that about a dozen UK airlines all had positive hiring updates posted on the same day. I think that anyone can update the info on ppjn so I would take it with a large pinch of salt. Not sure what motivation anyone would have for doing that though..... strange!

[screw fix diret]

As far as rumurs go, I've heard the 75 in TFS, 76 in Germany, 75 in Calgary to Hawaii, new route to Cape Verde and the airline becoming an autonomous scheduled operation. If you remember back to the MYT Lite days, they claimed it was hugely succesful but never had enough 'critical mass' (managment term of the era) to make a viable penetration of the market sector. They also said W patterns and deep nights didn't make any money. And what do find ourselves doing recently?
I've also heard all MAN LH to go to Virgin on 330, possible 6 airframes, slight reduction in UK SH fleet & european expansion of about 5 airframes based/crewed with a Turkish flavour.
Trust some of that helps muddy the water a little. Oh yeah, FP is on his way out and that lady from Tour Ops is taking over, nearly forgot.

[screw fix diret]

and Dave Betts tried to take MYT down a different avenue, then all of a sudden he wasn't the MD anymore.

That's it, finished now.:O

[macdo]

Terrific news, all of it. The caterers told me that we were bidding for the retired Space Shuttles! High density, high speed to SSH, where of course there are no noise restrictions!
Must go, I feel a deep night to DLM comi' on....:mad:

[macdo]

Dave Betts? Popular with crew wasn't he?;)

[macdo]

Oh well, didn't see that coming!
Share price lost 25% this morning on the back of a major profits warning. Just goes to show you always need to keep you CV up to date!

[charlies angel]

Sounds to me like TCX doesn't need pilots, but is in desperate need of more HR executives and management consultants, to introduce a "step change" of exciting new cost cutting initiatives "going forward".:ugh:

[ETOPS240]

Sadly, there's all too much truth to that statement. A good operation that does what it says on the tin, and unfortunately can't keep up with the times...

[JB007]

BBC News - Thomas Cook shares plunge on profit warning (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14117988)

Meanwhile, the firm said that it had asked management of its UK business to begin "a fundamental strategic and operational review" in light of poor trading.

[Desk-pilot]

Am I the only one who wonders about the sanity of the city pricks in red braces?

The reality is that Thomas Cook have indicated that in light of various perfectly understandable market factors largely beyond their control they expect to make a profit of £320m in a major recession rather than the £380m they expected. To make a profit at all in the current climate is impressive enough.

It hardly warrants a sell off of such magnitude that the share price drops by a third.

I'm afraid these jumped up city analysts need to learn something about business and economics and lay off the boozy lunches a bit. this is what happens when you have a load of barrow boys running things who just follow what the guy sitting next to them is doing like sheep. Frankly the lot of them need to grow a pair.

I don't work for Thomas Cook but I'd like to and it annoys me that having caused the bloody recession, the banking crisis and the liquidity crisis in the first place these ass wipes are over-reacting to every minor trading update.

(3 years Commerce Degree, 12 years blue chip mgt, and the past few years at the controls of an airliner)

[Coffin Corner]

DP

Spot on :D

[Superpilot]

I was about to say that.....:D

[Narrow Runway]

Desk-Pilot,

It is not really about spivs and braces.

Thomas Cook are a PUBLIC company, that accepted money from investors at floatation. They are duty bound to provide ACCURATE guidance to the London Stock Exchange as to how business is progressing.

It can be no surprise that when a business misses the previously stated by profit estimate by 20%, it has a bad effect on the share price.

It is as much about not being able to spout a load of old nonsense to the City - there by preventing asset bubbles - as it is about the City (not) understanding your business.

The facts are that the Chickens are coming home to roost here. Everyone - Thomas Cook included - thought business would be OK. It is not. It is dire. People are skint and they are foregoing their summer holidays.

Thomas Cook have a serious problem in the UK, and the City know it.

Had I still been a trader today, I'd have smashed the share price to pieces as well.

Remove the rose tinted spectacles: If the share price fall was overdone, the fund managers/speculators would have been hoovering up cheap shares all day. They've not been doing that for a good reason. Mainly because the share price fall is NOT an over reaction. On the contrary, there could be further to fall if the economy stays so subdued.

Best regards.

City Trader 1993-1999, Trainee Pilot 1999-2000 and Airline/Corporate Pilot 2000-present day.