Trident's reversing thrust and confusing SLF.

[SirFreddie]

I saw this on another forum. Any idea why this may have happened???

In 1982 I took my first Trident flight from London to Rome. As we came in for a landing the pilot, for reasons unknown, reversed engines about 10-15 feet off the ground. We slammed down onto the runway with such force that even the flight attendants seemed worried. The pilots kept the cockpit doors closed while the cabin was emptying. I think they did not want to deal with the myriad of questions that we all had ! I know we had just crossed the runway threshold when the engines reversed, so I don't think that was the issue. On the return flight (on a Trident) back to London, no such issues occurred when we landed at Heathrow.

Anyone else have an experience like this before?

[POBJOY]

I used to work with 3 ex Trident drivers and they said it was quite common to take reverse in the flare (and allowed).
The question is how much reverse and how high!!!

[chiglet]

IIRC, the Trident was allowed to put the centre engine in "reverse" to increase the rate of descent..... I stand to be corrected

[KeMac]

As anyone who travelled between Heathrow and Edinburgh on Tridents prior to the opening of the new runway will tell you, it was a feature of virtually every Trident landing on the old Turnhouse 6,000ft runway (short for Tridents) in the early to mid 1970s. Trident pilot Peter Whittle gave me an excellent description to use in my book on the history of Turnhouse. As he put it - after the opening of the new runway, all the fun went out of the trip.

[Hobo]

MODS --merge this with the tech log one?


POBJOY - Full reverse could be taken in the flare. On engine out emergency rev was mandatory IIRC.

chiglet - there was no reverse thrust on #2

[Props]

On approaching the flare the handling pilot would call Power Off and the Non- Handler would close the Throttles and select Reverse Idle on One and Three (No2 did not have Reverse), On touchdown Handler would call for Reverse.The problem was if full Reverse was selected in the flare and the chap landing was not expecting it an arrival ensued.
The reason for my hair loss is Crosswinds and wet Runway at EDI.

[Talkdownman]

My T3 buddy tells me 1 and 3 in reverse (and maybe it was gear down too) gave a ROD of 12,000 fpm...

[Props]

With No1 and 3 at 10,000RPM in Reverse and the selection of the Main Gear at 300kts and full airbrake you came down quite fast.
I remember crossing Brookmans Park at FL310 and making a straight in approach on 28L.
The trick was to use the Speedbrake Gear Selecter at 300kts and NOT the Normal Lever,otherwise the Nosegear came down and the Gear Doors blew away. The VSI hit the peg at 9000ft/min

Happy Days

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Props - What mark of Trident was it that the main gear could be used as an airbrake? Don't think the 3b could do that.

[The SSK]

My (unreliable) memory tells me I once experienced this onto a packed snow covered runway at Newcastle. Is this likely?

[Feathers McGraw]

There are some comments about the Trident's ability to go downhill very rapidly in Max Kingsley-Jones' De Havilland Trident book, in a chapter named T-tales.

In one tale, a senior captain was unimpressed with his P2's flight planning, as he'd indicated he was intending to "go down at the coast" when approaching the UK from somewhere over northern France. Trying to be a bit less by-the-book, he enquired "well I was expecting a pre-planned DME, but which coast did you mean?" The response from the P2 was "any ****ing coast!"

How this actually squared with the ATC constraints at the time I don't know, but it shows that crews were prepared to make use of the capability. The book also says that LHR ATC liked the Tridents because they could be given very late landing instructions and still arrive at the correct place at the correct altitude.

[Props]

If my Memory is right all Marks had the ability to use the Matn Gear as an Airbrake below 300kts IAS,
It was a small switch next to the Airbrake Lever which just lowered the Main Wheels.
However last flew one in 1977 so could be wrong.

[Chris Royle]

From a chum whom used to fly the "Gripper"

This was a standard Trident landing! Reverse idle was selected in the flare (1 & 3 only, there was no reverse on No.2) and then, depending on the length of the runway, up to full power on each engine could be taken even if still in the flare and, therefore, technically still airborne. The U/C (or should that be ‘chassis’, being a British aeroplane?) was also fairly stiff and all on one axle so the luxury of an angled bogie absorbing some of the vertical energy was denied us. Reverse was also mandatory under certain conditions. A combination such as short, slippery runway would dictate use of reverse during the flare. An unusual use of reverse was directional control on slippery runways and I was the copilot at Le Bourget on one wintery day when 21 was covered in ice and we slid, ever so neatly, down the centre line but at 20 degrees off with a strong crosswind. The skipper was calling for ‘more’ or ‘less’ reverse on the downwind engine to keep her straight....a great job.

[wrecker]

It was only the T1c which had the main gear lowering switch installed. The max lowering IAS was 300kts and the max to retract the main wheels was 250kts.

[wrecker]

When using the reverse in the flare particularly when using full reverse for a so called "positive touch down" the trick was not to chicken out on the flare but continue the rotation, the reverse blew into the ground effect and cushioned the touchdown. A positive touchdown was the SOP for any form of wet or contaminated touchdown. A "target touchdown" was flown when landing on a length restricted runway ie. 13/31 at Turnhouse,in that case the reverse was selected in the flare but the flare was not prolonged past the normal landing attitude. John Cuningham was a great proponent of reverse in the flare and his flare profile was initially used for the Autoflare/Autoland profile. This profile had to be later modified to a slightly less extreme profile.

[Props]

Thanks Wrecker for putting me right on the Airbrake Main Gear only on the the Trident 1c.

[tony jarrett]

Hi, we are compiling a history of Trident G-ARPO as we are moving and restoring this aircraft and would like to ask all ex Trident pilots if you could list your flight history of PO including destination, flight crew and times if poss from your log books.I can be contacted through the save the trident website regards tony

[scotbill]

As others have indicated, it was standard procedure to use reverse on 1 and 3 in the flare on limiting runways.
Contrary to the impression given in the initial post, however, this often produced a smoother touchdown on the Trident 3b than its normal tendency to skip slightly - which could result in a firm second arrival. (Not a characteristic of the earlier marks). Arguably, in the flare a vertical component of the reverse helped to maintain contact with the landing surface.
It has to be recognised that the unexpected roar on touchdown could alarm the nervous passenger (particularly in the rear of the cabin!) and captains often gave advance warning of the phenomenon.

[GANNET FAN]

Certainly remember an early reverse thrust when landing at Gibraltar, but I wasn't altogether surprised by that!

[chevvron]

At the end of my ATCO Cadet Course, we did a 2 week course with BEA at Viking House to familiarise us with Tridents. We were briefed that it was normal to engage reverse thrust about 10ft agl, and also that you didn't actually 'flare' to reduce rate of descent. We were told what happened was as the wing came into ground effect, it caused the nose to pitch down, and the so-called flare was actually to keep angle of attack constant until touchdown.

[scotbill]

Chevvron

That' s news to me - but I was only on Tridents for ten years.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

At the end of my ATCO Cadet Course, we did a 2 week course with BEA at Viking House to familiarise us with Tridents. We were briefed that it was normal to engage reverse thrust about 10ft agl, and also that you didn't actually 'flare' to reduce rate of descent. We were told what happened was as the wing came into ground effect, it caused the nose to pitch down, and the so-called flare was actually to keep angle of attack constant until touchdown.

The bit I've put in italics was true for Concorde. Are you sure it's not that aeroplane you are thinking of?