To those seeking work

[NuName]

A friendly word of advice, these days there are more pilots than jobs. When you see a position advertised with firmly stated minimus, do the poor guy a favour and do not apply if you do not meet those minimums. It is highly unlikely that the person having to review the huge amount of applications has the authority to change it so it will just be deleted and you (and all the others) have only wasted their time. There is no doubt that there will be many who exceed the minimum requirements by far so you really have no chance. In some cases I receive multiple applications from the same source when the qualifications are hardly enough to be a AFI. I feel for you all, we have all been there but these are cold hard facts, insurance companies are only interested in numbers, if you need a type rating, thats it, minimum hours are just that and you will not endear yourself to anyone by making them wade through a bunch of irrelevant applictions.
Having said that, very best of luck to you all. :ok:

[johns7022]

An opposing view...

Companies routinely put people with questionable hours and credentials in planes all the time...if they want them.....on the other hand...no one knows the insurance premium of a pilot until that pilot has been put in front of the insurance company..

and that said....

In reality it's cheaper insurance wise to hire a ten thousand hour captain with no GV type but with 4000 hours of PIC jet time, then a 2000 hour pilot with a GV type and 100 hours of SIC...so everytime they want that 100 hours in type...

Translate : We don't want to have to pay for your training...we want someone else too....we are shopping training...not pilots.

Bottom line....most companies are chumming for a pilot who will move for free, come to them with a paid type, work for cheap.....and regardless of what the stated qualifications are....you can meet or exceed the stated qualification of what is advertised...then lo and behold the chief pilot hired the boss's nephew with zip flight time..

Just send in your resumes...you never know...you might get hired after they sift through all other guys.....because in the end, they hire who they want anyway...regardless of what they said they want.

[NuName]

Don't be fooled, questionable hours/credentials? I was not referring to such sharp practice and have no knowledge of this. The insurance certificate would normaly clearly state the minimum requirements for crew. When I am looking for a crewmember I know what I wish for, and so do all the others. We don't advertise for certain qualifications as a joke, we need them. My comments are in the main are to do with small corporate operations that do not have the facilities to offer ab initio introduction into the biz jet world, you get hired, jump in and do the job. The minimums are what has been decided you will need to do this.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

If the initial min requirements are not met, then the recruiter MIGHT be able to find a most (on perfect) applicant, and propose to the company.

if the CP is actually recruiting, then sometimes the min requirements are set in rock, but sometimes NOT.

I would always suggest that IF you beleive that your abilities and qualifications make you suitable for that post, regardless of the mins stated then go for it.

For example Emirates say NO TP time will be credited. Unless they need you, and then the rules change.

glf

[NuName]

I did think long and hard before making this post, I am not trying to be negative at all. Sure, if you come close to the requirements go for it, I'm talking about when jet time is required a C150 is all thats there, when 1500 hours are required 300 is offered when a type is required there is none just the C150 and 300 hours. This what I am pointing out here, nothing else, just keep it realistic. And I really do wish all the starters out there the best of luck, that and the right place at the right time is still working.

[OutsideCAS]

NuName, can understand that all the irrelevant applications can take time to trawl through, equally i can also understand the mindset of those now trying in vain to apply even without the requisite hours/rating/contacts (can't blame them really can you ??) - in order to prevent a few applications landing on your desk/email, feel free to name your company/organisation and what you require and i'm sure that will remove a few applications that might have otherwise not met requirements but landed on your desk anyway.

[NuName]

OutsideCAS, I appreciate the suggestion but the ad is out there with the conditions stated in no unceratin terms, I fear that any more exposure would only increase the amount of work for me. I do not like to not reply to all those who take the trouble to apply, but its becoming ridiculous.

[mikehammer]

Those who are likely to agree with your suggestion don't need prompting, and those who don't agree will carry on regardless, therefore I would suggest that you have unfortunately wasted your time here.

[johns7022]

Chumming the waters for Sushi grade fish, expect a few Mackeral getting caught in the net.

[jackx123]

A buddy of mine got a GV job with no jet time as f/o with upgrade one year later for less tan half price of a rated captain. Captain with 000' hours on F50.

i suppose the inhibiting factor is insurance in many cases

[corporatejetpilot]

NuName,

For a very important and busy person (wasn't that the bottom line of your posting?),
you sure seem to have a lot of time to react to a PPRUNE post every hour or so.

Maybe your time was better spent on getting the quality people out of those resumes......


johns7022, spot on.

It is about money nowadays, typerating with experience and too many operators don't even send their pilots to simulators anymore, LPC on the airplane.
The quality of our profession is sinking rapidly.

CJP

[NuName]

I am sorry if I have upset you, were you one of the applicants I was talking about? I have plenty of time now having found the pilot I was looking for, I don't fly for another six hours. Of course when our pilot decided to leave on short notice we could have just stopped flying, but no, there are many qualified and unemployed pilots out there so we didnt have to. Yes, johns7022 is spot on about many things, for some. And I have just re-read my posting, where does it say that I am a "very important and busy person", I have no idea why your venom is directed against me, I am only trying to give someone a job, what do you find wrong with that. I just have to think to myself, if I say in the ad, do not apply if you do not have blah blah blah and somebody does anyway, did they read the ad? did they understand the ad? do they always disregard written instructions? were they using initiative as there situation was so close to what was required? or do they just send off applications to anyone for anything in the hope of trawling something? You try wading through a couple of hundred applications when only 5% are viable. No I'm not an important person, reasonably busy and just trying to make a living.

[deefer dog]

NuName,

I agree that it can be a bit irritating receiving applications from those who do not meet the experience requirements that one may seek, but a post such as yours will never stop it happening, especially when the employment market is as it is now.

If you made it clear in your advert that only those meeting your criteria will be considered, then you have two options; either ignore those who you feel are wasting your time, or have a standard email reply stating "sorry, you do not meet the advertised requirements, so can not be considered for the vacancy."

It may be a minor inconvenience, but is it such a big deal? Are you advertising for crew every month? I suspect not. The time spent here posting on the topic could have been better spent writing "thanks, but no thanks" to the unfortunate hopefuls who are perhaps desperate to find their first job.

[NuName]

Well maybe you are right, maybe I'm becoming the grinch, maybe a guy who gets lucky in the bar tonight will get a job as a gynaecologist tomorrow. I will take your advice and just ignore them, no big deal I suppose. It seems the overwhelming opinion is to ignore what the position actualy asks for, times have changed I guess, and I'll have to change with it. After all delete is only one button.

[hollingworthp]

How about a note on the advert stating all applicants not meeting the criteria will not be considered now or at any point in the future for your company.

[Trim Stab]

I got an offer once even though my qualifications were below what was requested. I had a non-flying qualification which the company realised would be useful to them.

[helldog]

I think you have to be realistic and at times read between the lines when you apply. Sometimes you can see that whoever set the requirements has no clue. Honestly some requirements leave me scratching my head as to how they decided what they require, they certainly aint insurance requirements.

I saw an add the other day, if I can find it I will post it. They wanted pilots for some bizjet, absolute min was 500 hours on type 2000 hours, something like that. They were also looking for a TRE/TRI? That must mean that they have people to train that don't have the minimums they require in the ad. I would say in a case like that it might be worth a shot putting an app in regardless of qualifications.

[His dudeness]

NuName, I understand your feelings. Had the same happen to me the last time we advertised. Stupid as I am, I answered every application (thought it was good style) and the work is considerable, more so cause it went off my free time.

Still, good luck to anyone looking for a position.

[silverware]

If I was a VIP pilot/flight attendant looking for work, I would apply to ANYTHING that I remotely qualified for!
Just by looking at the amount of people posting their details here, hoping to strike gold, there are still alot of cold calls/letters to be made.
The biz av business is so full of sh:mad:, overrated requirements, arrogance and hot air that every opportunity is still a fair chance to get a job/lead.

I truly hope that this subject will hold alot less threads next year and most of us will find employment (again).

Happy holidays!

[FlyingGasMain]

These are desperate times and have been for a year or more. There are a lot of over-optimistic applicants out there and you can't really blame them for trying, though I'm sure it does make your task a bit more onerous. In the good times the under-qualified guys would have stood a better chance at getting into an airline or persuading a bizjet operator to give them an office job with the possibility of a type rating later. But that aint happening at the moment, so they will try anything to try and land any job. Its just the way it is at the moment ...

[swampthing]

Silverware.. I agree with you. I am ex Netjets and still can't find any employment because I do not have the correct type rating.. and paying for it will not do, not only because I do not have the money for it, but.. because you need hours on type.. even if it is only 50.. so I can agree .. Aviation in general has gone to the dogs and most people can't give a :mad: if you are unemployed and behind on your mortgage!!!

As long as they have a job.. all is well !!

[Pilocol]

Ok, here is some help ...
PM me if you are rated on the Falcon 900 B ... or EX ...
I help you ...

Keep it safe:ok:

[cldrvr]

I have been part of the recruitment process in various forms over the years, from corporations, private owners to commercial operators. There is nothing wrong with sending CV's that do not meet the requirements. Many operators need to stagger their FO's and Captains to prevent bottlenecks in upgrading and natural turnover. There are several times where I have come across a CV of an inexperienced FO that for one reason or another got my interest and I kept that particular applicant to one side for future reference and/or recruitment. Sometimes just a way a CV or cover letter is written or some of the interests/background of a particular applicant not meeting the requirements at that time makes it interesting enough to keep in the "maybe file".

Recruitment in our line of work is not always about hours and experience, it often is about personality and whether the team gets along with a new applicant as we spend lots of time together in each others space and downroute for days on end.

So don't let the OP's laziness in having to read "unwanted" CV's keep you from sending them.

The one CV that always ends up in the "circular file" is the one with a rating and no experience, but that is for another thread.

Good luck to all those looking for work.

[His dudeness]

and most people can't give a if you are unemployed and behind on your mortgage!!!

As long as they have a job.. all is well !!


So as long as you were NetJets, you were in the 'I do care about any unemployed pilot' brigade?

[johns7022]

And you can be over qualified and not get the job...

It goes both ways...

You will never know what they really want unless they see your resume first.

[Propellerpilot]

A friendly word of advice: If you don't like studying job applications yourself - get a secretary or pay a service provider or head hunter that will sort out everything for you. What use is it complaining about this in a public forum ?

You should treat those that are showing interest in your company with a little more respect (just to be professional) - after all there is always a person behind an application.

Of course there are and always will be many that just lack common sense, as they do not fit the profile in any way and they can't be given any attention - no debate about that - for that person concerned it takes just as much common sense not to receive a reply to such a gamble.

What you are basically showing, is that you are not willing to invest an intelligent thought or a penny in solving your problem - so what does that tell us about you ?

Part of the problem of course is also Internet and Email - it takes 2 seconds to send an on line application - no effort involved and very superficial - which is why some operators insist on receiving classic postal applications only as the increased cost and effort make many chancers refrain. If you don't have any creative ideas of your own and continue using your current media - stop complaining about the quality of the result.

[NuName]

Thank you for your words of wisdom, everybody has an opinion and this is yours, but not for me thank you. Where you get your ideas from I am not clear about, I have plenty of respect and sympathy for those seeking work, I do a lot of it myself. Sloving my problem is not so difficult, in fact I have alreay solved it. If you cant understand how much the workload is increased by applications that are so way off the mark, but one wishes to be civilised and reply, then you have either never done it, you don't bother to reply or you are a sucker for punishment. I am now wondering what exactly your post tells us about you, inexperience maybe.

[INNflight]

Be nice folks - no one likes being without a job, having qualifications running out in the near future. NuName has a point aswell of course.

It's never easy these days, whether you have 200 or 2000 hours.
I honestly think that if the 200 or 300 or 2000 hours guy / gal takes the time to apply to a job out of reach, they are either very desperate or feel like they have somthing that could be worth more than flying experience to an operator.

Either way - it's not like there haven't been folks with 250hrs in the right hand seat of Citations or Hawkers and coped very well.

Just saying.

[Propellerpilot]

Now don't be arrogant if you have nothing else to reply. The issues and questions I have raised have some legitimacy and are valid - after all you have started this thread and I now ask myself - what does a person expect from that ? If you don't like discussion, then why don't you lock this thread ?

If you have solved the problem - good for you. It has showed inexperience on your part in managing your own recruitment - the responsibility of getting spammed with applications lies with the quality of your method and it has nothing to do with anybody else.

No and after your last reply: I don't expect you to comprehend me.

[swampthing]

His Dudeness.... as for your question..

"So as long as you were NetJets, you were in the 'I do care about any unemployed pilot' brigade?"

The short answer to that is.. YES I WAS!

[johns7022]

Nuname...ok, I'll say it.......your chumming the internet for pilots.....and my experience has shown that your typical employer is looking for something more specific then what has been advertised in the advertisement.

Bottom line...you tell everyone you want THESE qualifications...now let's take a hard look at the guy you actually hired....I would put money on it, he is far from the ideal, insurance qualified, highly experienced...blah blah blah pilot you said you were looking for.

Going to the internet for pilots is chasing the low hanging fruit, so you'll end up looking down on the ground once in a while to pick up an apple that fell off the tree, and not grab a ladder to climb up top and get the one you really want.

[INNflight]

Going to the internet for pilots is chasing the low hanging fruit

This ain't 1980... :ugh:

[NuName]

One gets used to ridiculous statements shot from the lip. :hmm:

[md1011]

INNflight.

I agree with you entirely. I am a rated, and current, self-funded LPC in April, Embraer Legacy FO. I worked in Russia and left there without €21,000. I have just short of 200 hours on type and another 500'ish hours on Citation II's, all that with just 60 hours short of an unfrozen ATPL. How do I get the attention I need, I'm 51 but look and act 40, get me through the door and you would see that in an instant. What I do have is all corporate and single pilot ops experience, I know passengers can be very demanding, but I deal with it, I'm old enough to know my money comes from them, life experience see. I have run my own business for 26 years so my fiscal and operational decisions are no different to those of any multi-national or tiny company and I carry that through to any employers day to day business.

In short, I believe I have a lot to offer, and I'm sorry if now and then I clog up your system, but I want, and indeed am, determined to realise a reward for all that time, study and financial commitment.

Thats what I'll give you, if that ain't enough....................well !!
:ugh:

[His dudeness]

Propellerpilot:

What you are basically showing, is that you are not willing to invest an intelligent thought or a penny in solving your problem - so what does that tell us about you ?

Propellerpilot:

It has showed inexperience on your part in managing your own recruitment - the responsibility of getting spammed with applications lies with the quality of your method and it has nothing to do with anybody else.

So PP, you are running a recruitment agency, aren`t you?

If one cannot expect to get qualified reply if asking for only specific experience/qualification from supposedly educated people, than...?

We recruited in 2009, and my peers left no doubt in what minimum qual they wanted (SIC, 500 jet time, GA background,T/R was provided) and I was bathed in applications from newbies and 100% airliners. 1 in twenty was suitable.

Whilst I understand the reasons for applying to a job that one - given the pilot market in 2009 and 2010 - can´t expect to get, it still is at least an annoiance to the people that have to wade through that stuff. As said before, I answered every application (I hate non answers myself)
Using an agency by the way was no option, the airplane was up for sale and extra money not available. I was lucky to keep my job as the airplane was not sellable for a reasonable price.

Swamthing:

The short answer to that is.. YES I WAS!

So you did care about unemployed folks getting a job in NJ? Or how can I understand that "YES"? I feel lucky not to be in your position, BUT that does not mean that I have the slighest bit positive feeling about your position. There is nothing that I could gain in feeling good about unemployed people, may it be pilots or others. The opposite is true, the lesser unemployed pilots are there, the better and more solid is my situation.

I just wonder how you would expect 'us' (employed, supposedly not giving a pile of poo...) to react to your sentence:

Aviation in general has gone to the dogs and most people can't give a if you are unemployed and behind on your mortgage!!!

Would you give up your job because you don´t have a mortgage to help an unemployed with one?

I can´t create jobs in my current position. Easy as that. I´d recruite 4 pilots and retreat to my sofa, but the boss doesnt buy that.

[Lucky7s]

So, for you recruiters out there:

If one would meet all requirements, have some experience from Biz aviation, and favour this segment rather than the airlines, but does not hold the valid type rating asked for. Is it then reasonable to send an application?

[johns7022]

These guys for the most part hire, buddies, pals, friends, suck ups, brown nosers, and people that can do something for them...as a rule.

Send your resume in, and do what you can to suck up to the chief pilot...he'll put a Pomeranian into the front seat of an Airbus if the dog rolls over when he says so.

[Aslak]

The first poster made a very valid point.

With all the respect and wishes of good luck to everyone looking for an employment without currently having a job, really, really, if you are not even close to stated requirements, why do you apply?

An example, if you advertise for a Global Captain position, having a VALID JAA type rating and being current, the most of the applications are from people who don't even come close to it. Literally HUNDREDS of applications from pilots whom just gratuated with around 200 hrs of flight time.

Would be kind of same than someone would be looking for a Chief Financial Officer for a big multinational corporation and someone who has just finished high school would apply for it.

Sure, you can do it, but honestly, what is the point?

Another thing concerning some of the recruitment agencys and websites.
They have a tendency to post very old adds as a new ones and therefore waste everyones time.
Then comes the second wave. People whom had applied for such a non-existing position will send a second e-mail in about few weeks asking how their application is proceeding.

At the beginning I was trying to send a reply to everyone, but due to current market situation and the amount of application (95% of them again non-relevant) I have stopped to do so.

Once more, we have all been there looking for a job and really really all the best for everyone, but if you do not come even close to minimum qualifications, please understand, that position is not for you, yet.
Some day it may very well be.

Good luck for everyone! :ok:

[rotorknight]

Hi Gents,and ladies of course,

Since there seem to be so many prospective employers on this thread,I can save myself the trouble of applying through the regular channels;).

If you are looking for a pilot that can fly both fixed wing and helicopters,I might be the perfect candidate.
9000 hours and a JAA ATPL fixed wing and helicopters.
Have a rating in the HS125(not current at the moment) and the S76,AS332,S92.

So if you need a really allround pilot with business jet experience please sent me a pm.

Enjoy the remainder of the weekend all of you.