Ba737 Gva - Lhr

[SwissRef]

So BA have canceled the final flight of the day out of GVA.

They are blaming it on the weather. but it isn't snowing here, the airport is open, and all the other flights are going.

So - anyone able to say why it is really canceled?

Ruined my weekend. :mad:

[dubh12000]

Is the aircraft there?

[SwissRef]

They are running them currently.

Running the earlier ones as well - with only an hour delay.

But I do see they have canceled the one out of LHR which would be the right plane. So it appears they are making up for lost time, by canceling the penultimate plane out of LHR and the last plane out of GVA. Rather than running several hours late. And saying it is due to the weather.

Sorry but I would rather be a few hours late, than half a day late to a weekend trip - removing a third of my weekend time with friends and family, and no compensation other than "sorry".

So nice of them. :mad:

[ExXB]

Can't you ask them to rebook you on the LX358 leaving at 20:25. Under EC261 that should be one of your options in the event of a cancellation. If you have any status with BA you should insist.

[SwissRef]

They told me that it was fully booked.

I did a quick check of other airlines, but a Friday night flight out? No chance.

On the 12:15 - not happy.

[Capetonian]

Probably too late for you to do anything now, but LX 358 is not full, still showing seats on sale (J1,M2)

[SwissRef]

Just asked again - got told - no, it's fully booked, and even if it wasn't we can't book you onto it.

2 not very happy BA Customers :{

Even the Easyjet flights are going. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Capetonian]

4 *BD6778 C0 D0 J0 Y0 OC S0 BC /GVA M LHR 1 2025 2110
KC MC HC QC VC GC WC TC NC EC
5BD*LX 358 C0 DC ZC JC R0 Y0 BC /GVA M LHR 1 2025 2110
MC HC UC GC QC KC VC LC WC TC PC EC
6 BA 737 FLT CANCELLED /GVA M LHR 5 2050 2125

It is full now but it wasn't when I posted

[ConstantFlyer]

They are blaming it on the weather. but it isn't snowing here, the airport is open, and all the other flights are going.

There are other reasons why they might have had to cancel the flight, including availability of crew - the original crew may have been out of hours, and replacement crew may have been snowed in and unable to get to the airport.

My flight on Wednesday had three pursers on board as other crew were unavailable. I was lucky to get away with just a 2 hour delay, though on Monday I had waited over 5 after a cancellation, a full flight and a delayed one.

Good luck, SwissRef; I hope you get to your destination.:)

[SwissRef]

The BA "Helpline" said even if their were seats available, they couldn't book me on it. (Is this a lie? Do they have to? If so, under what regs?)

But said it was full - even when I first phoned up around 5pm local time

But thank you for looking.

[Capetonian]

The BA "Helpline" said even if their were seats available, they couldn't book me on it. (Is this a lie? Do they have to? If so, under what regs?)

The regulations are stated here( CH is considered EU for this purpose), but there are many weasel clauses that they can invoke :

Cancellation | AUC Home (http://www.auc.org.uk/default.aspx?catid=306&pagetype=90&pageid=9367)

Extraordinary circumstances and Regulation EC261/2004*

Regulation EC261/2004 states circumstances under which airlines must pay compensation to their passengers when their flights are disrupted. But it also says that airlines do not have to pay compensation when an event "has been caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken".

The Regulation also gives the following examples of such circumstances:

* political instability
* bad weather
* security risks
* unexpected flight safety shortcomings
* strikes that affect the operation of an air carrier
* air traffic management decisions

The EU and its regulations are about as useful as a paper fireguard, but a common sense view on this would lead a reasonable person to the conclusion that they should book inconvenienced pax onto the next alternative flight. This may well cost the ticketing airline money but commercial goodwill dictates that you do it. If the alternative flight has fewer seats on it than pax wanting to use it (normally this would be the case) then a hierarchical order has to be applied. Criteria would be passenger value (FF status, fare paid, ongoing connections, to name just a few) and then it will often be the case that the mouthy will get on and the meek won't.

[PleasureFlyer]

There is of course always the possibility that the plane is delayed due to weather on another sector and there is no chance of it getting into and out of GVA again before the curfew.

[ExXB]

The regulations are stated here( CH is considered EU for this purpose), but there are many weasel clauses that they can invoke :

Cancellation | AUC Home (http://www.auc.org.uk/default.aspx?catid=306&pagetype=90&pageid=9367)



The EU and its regulations are about as useful as a paper fireguard, but a common sense view on this would lead a reasonable person to the conclusion that they should book inconvenienced pax onto the next alternative flight. This may well cost the ticketing airline money but commercial goodwill dictates that you do it. If the alternative flight has fewer seats on it than pax wanting to use it (normally this would be the case) then a hierarchical order has to be applied. Criteria would be passenger value (FF status, fare paid, ongoing connections, to name just a few) and then it will often be the case that the mouthy will get on and the meek won't.

Actually Capers the relevant part of the regulation (also copied from the AUC site) is:
1. Refund or re-routing

1. If you decide not to travel you are entitled to a refund, within seven days, of the parts of the tickets not used. If it is a connecting flight and you have already made part of the journey and do not want to continue with it, reimbursement of the total price of the ticket (including parts of the journey not made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to your original travel plan) within seven days and a free flight back to point of departure.

You are not entitled (under Regulation (EC) 261/2004) to reimbursement of any other components of your trip such as hotel and transfer costs

or

Re-routing to your final destination as soon as possible or, if you agree, at a later date. (If the airline flies you to another airport in your destination city then they must pay for the transfer to the airport you were booked for or to another close-by point of your choice)

This doesn't say the airline has to reroute you on another airline (which is why I suggested that the OP use any 'status' he might have with BA) and LCCs will refuse to do so. (Stating they don't have interline agreements which is a very weak argument). BA themselves could certainly buy the passenger a ticket on Squeezy (but BA staff are not 'empowered' for such problem-solving) or reroute them onto Swiss (for which they are).

[SwissRef]

Cheers everyone for the advice/assistance.

Got there - delayed, but got there. Meant we could do everything we wanted though.

Just annoyed at BA giving weaselly excuses. Even on the way back we were delayed boarding because of "re-de-icing" - when you could clearly see they weren't de-icing the plane. The de-icing took all of 15minutes after we were on board. So why not jsut tell us they were waiting for a de-icing slot, or whatever the real reason was, with an expected delay time - we could have wandered round the shops for an extra hour.....

[L337]

Lets see. Plane lands and needs de-iced. That is done before passengers board. Pilot looks out the window and sees the wings beginning to frost up. Best plan at that point is to put the passengers on, and then when they are on, de-ice the aeroplane again. probably just the tops of the wings..? That gives you the shortest time from de-ice to take off. thus minimising the possibility of further icing problems.

Yes you could have been in duty free, but the clock starts ticking the second you start the de-ice process. It is called holdover time. The scenario could unfold... de-ice. Half an hour to board, close doors, wait for start... more ice. Now we need re-re de-iced. All off so you can go back to duty free, de ice, re-board, more ice, all off again, de ice, miss slot..de- ice, board.. wait for yet another slot, more ice, all off to duty free, de-ice, all on after another half an hour, more ice, all off, back to duty free...

But you clearly know better.

[Capetonian]

Just to quickly go back to the topic of one airline accepting another's ticket, it's usually governed by complex agreements based on the coupon value, whether airline A will endorse to airline B at all, if so at what value. Certain fare levels may be accepted between carriers, others not ... it's a minefield. The easiest, but often wrong, approach taken by ticket counter staff is to say 'No'.

[SwissRef]

But you clearly know better.

Well, I know what I saw and was told. We were held off the plane while the plane was being "re-de-iced" according to the announcement. But in this time the plane was not touched by the de-icing crew.

The scenario could unfold... de-ice. Half an hour to board, close doors, wait for start... more ice. Now we need re-re de-iced. All off so you can go back to duty free, de ice, re-board, more ice, all off again, de ice, miss slot..de- ice, board.. wait for yet another slot, more ice, all off to duty free, de-ice, all on after another half an hour, more ice, all off, back to duty free...

You miss the fact that we were held in the departure lounge (ie not on the plane) for an hour while the supposed "re-de-icing" occurred. And yes - we were "re-de-iced" (not my phrase - BA's) once on the plane just before departure. I am not suggesting for a moment that we should have been taken off the plane at the point they had to de-ice before departure.

My complaint is that we were told the place was being "re-de-iced" so we couldn't board. At no point during this delay was the plane de-iced (I sat and watched it through the window). So this was not true. The de-icing happened after we boarded. All I want to know is - what was the real hold up - why not tell us? Why use the de-icing as the excuse? If it was waiting for a slot with the de-icing crew - fine, I can accept that. Tell us, delay the plane, and then let us decide what to do with that spare time.

Basically I agree with: (but this isn't what happened)
Best plan at that point is to put the passengers on, and then when they are on, de-ice the aeroplane again. probably just the tops of the wings..? That gives you the shortest time from de-ice to take off. thus minimising the possibility of further icing problems.

[Tagron]

It is entirely normal and standard procedure to deice the aircraft immediately before departure, i.e. with all passengers on board and doors closed. The purpose is two-fold: to remove ice and snow deposits, and to apply a protective fluid that will give protection against further precipitation before take off. It is a single step process at European airports.

It is an uncommon event to have to return to the ramp for further deicing. You have to be very unlucky - severe conditions combined perhaps with a runway closure for snow clearance. The risk is minimised by using deicing fluid with suitable holdover times and carrying out the operation with the minimum time interval before departure.

Deicing is not carried out on arrival. The only occasions when it may be carried out well in advance of the boarding process is following a night stop (or similar long period on the ground) when there is a need to remove accumulated deposits and there is no risk of further precipitation. Clearly this was not the case with your flight.

So the phrase "re deice" is nonsense, as I think you have detected. Quite likely deicing was a factor - delays due to deicing are not uncommon even at the better equipped airports (I have no recent experience of GVA) and there could have been complications like crew hours as already suggested. Maybe the passenger agent had failed to understand the exact situation, or just tried to simplify a more complex picture. But to come up with a phrase that was so easily challengable seems just plain dumb.

[Sporran]

SwissRef,

As a captain, one of the first questions that I ask a dispatcher is "what have the passengers been told"? The vast majority of the time they will have purely passed on third-hand information.

If there is any kind of lengthy delay that does not allow me to board passengers I will do my best to go up to the gate and inform the passengers myself. I prefer the proactive approach because it avoids any misinformation and also ensures that passengers arrive at the aircraft in a better frame of mind - certainly less grumpy!!!:)

Cold weather operations can often throw 'curved balls' at you, and I am certain that my colleagues did not just ignore their passengers or knowingly allow you to be given duff gen.

Please remember that the prime role of the aircraft captain is to get you to your destination safely and securely. If additional de-icing is required I am sure that he was spending the vast majority of his capacity thinking about your safety. It sounds like there was not enough time, spare capacity or whatever to also be proactive.

[angels]

Sporran - Good on you mate.

I recall being delayed on a really important trip to Amsterdam (dinner with client, I promise), but it was made a more tolerable by the fact the Captain of the (non-existent) plane came to the gate to apologise in person. Indeed he hung around chatting.

We left three hours late. On the PA the Captain (a Nigel) apologised for any inconvenience but then noted his wife was going to have his guts for garters as he was going to miss an important dinner back in London with her boss.

It's funny how the thought of the poor Captain getting a bollocking from his Mrs put a smile on peoples' faces!

[scotbill]

Handling agents - whether company employees or not - are notorious around the world for giving inaccurate information - often because of imperfect understanding of technical processes or inadequate briefing.
Sporran's approach is ideal - and one I used whenever possible in my own time in the business. Telling passengers exactly what the problem was and what we were trying to do about it defused many potential complaints before they were inflicted on the cabin crew and soured the atmosphere on board.
However, it has to be accepted that the captain may be very busy trying to resolve the situation - and many competent skippers are not so comfortable facing a large and potentially hostile audience! In my experience though, most passengers accept and understand problems when they are given accurate information.

SB