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Sunfish
2nd Dec 2010, 20:04
Final report is out regarding the 2007 Mid Air at YLTV.

Now you know why I leave the circuit when it gets "crowded" sometimes.

The entire "Foreign student" business is a rip off and a sick joke.

Having had the opportunity to observe secondary and some tertiary foreign students at length over the past Five years (but not aviation students) I make the following observations.

1. All foreign students are supposed to acquire the "Cambridge Level Two' standard of English before attending a secondary or Tertiary educational institution in Australia. This is a sham. Students frequently present with little knowledge of spoken, let alone written, English, with a certificate either purchased overseas or from one of the rotten, sick "Australian" institutions like "******" a simple walk down Latrobe street Melbourne will reveal dozens of these shonky places.

The worst I've seen was a Twenty Four year old national of a certain country who could speak English quite well, allegedly had an engineering degree (most probably purchased), and was enrolled in a master of business program with a certain well known University. His level of reading and writing comprehension was less than that of a year Ten student. We had his visa cancelled and had him sent home, at least the University was good enough to refund his tuition money.

Then there was the one who could barely speak, let alone write, English. She wanted to become a rock music journalist in New York after she had completed an Arts degree which was totally beyond her. Her rich mother explained that she wanted her to "follow her dream'.

2. About one third are genuine students who want to get their education and depart.


3. Another Third are immigrating by stealth, using the loophole that allows graduates permanent resident status if they get a job here after graduating with God knows what bogus degree.


4. Then there are the "problematic ones". They include the "out of sight, out of mind" brigade, where Daddy has remarried. Then there are the misfits who have psychiatric or "behavioural" issues such as being "gender insecure" - behaviours that would relegate them to the scrap heap in their own country. Finally this group also includes drug addicts and aggressive, criminal, rebellious kids whose behaviour in their home country would be grounds for a bullet behind the ear.

...and we get them dumped on us.

I believe visa requirements have now been toughened, locking the stable door after the horse has bolted, but the reality is that this mess has been swept under the carpet.

There also needs to be a written and oral test for all foreign students, administered by an Australian public servant, under conditions where cheating and bribery is impossible.


Investigation: AO-2007-065 - Midair collision - Cessna 172 VH-EUI & Avid Flyer 28-0929, Latrobe Valley Aerodrome, Vic, 1 December 2007 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2007/aair/ao-2007-065.aspx)

VH-XXX
2nd Dec 2010, 21:59
I was there on the day, but not at the flying school end of the field.

100% avoidable.

What ever happened to "supervised solo" where the instructor watches with a radio in hand, particularly for a foreign student whose English level was questionable?

Where was the instructor?

There's too much emphasis on radio over-transmission. It's a CTAF and a radio is not mandatory. See and be seen.

I do wonder if this paves the way for legal action.

I was surprised that there was alcohol in the blood of the deceased at 11:30am. He would have stopped drinking long before 8 hours before 11:30 that's for sure.

RIP Don you were a good friend, a great instructor and a gentleman aviator.

mcgrath50
2nd Dec 2010, 23:49
VH-XXX, that doesn't always help last time I transited ballarat they had a student solo (the flying school at ballarat has someone on the ground providing a radio service), and they lost contact with the student on first solo, I couldn't tell if he decided to do another circuit or he was just taking a long time to taxi back and they lost sight of him, but it sure was an odd one to listen to!

Reading the investigation is scary. I have relatively little experience compared to most here and have already had at least one instance of a plane overtaking me and suddenly appearing in the top corner of my windows on short final. It happens too often. I think people on final especially get focused on the runway. It was always instilled with me, if in doubt go around. Sure it's embarrassing as all hell when you can't find the aircraft and have to go around from a longish final, but you and the other guy live for another day.

VH-XXX
3rd Dec 2010, 00:36
I guess there's two sides to that story where if the instructor was on the radio he could then warn other aircraft of a pending problem.

The fact that you knew something was going on at Ballarat meant that you would have been looking extra hard for the stray "missing" student.

I don't think the school in this instance was geared up for international students and their unique requirements, hence highlighted by the amendments to the sop's.

ReverseFlight
3rd Dec 2010, 22:22
they lost contact with the student on first solo

I've been to BLT where the solo students from the local school do not answer back on the radio, even if it meant increasing situational awareness. I was subsequently given to understand that their students come from a SE Asia country where their every word and movement is monitored closely and their best tactic is not to say anything in case it gets them into trouble. :ugh:

Sunfish
4th Dec 2010, 00:00
The problem is that for those for whom English is a second language and due to cultural differences, it is very difficult to make them say "No".

So when they get confused or hear an instruction or query they don't understand or for which they don't know the "right' answer, they just shut up or say "Yes".

As in: Can you see the traffic in front of you? "Yes" meaning no.

Tip for instructors, from my partner who has to teach some of them sometimes.

Her dialogue always goes something like this:

Q: "Do you now how to get to Box Hill station?"

A: "Yes"

Then she says: "Prove to me you know how to get to Box Hill Station"

...and half the time the response demonstrates that they have no ****ing idea, and were just being polite.



Ended up virtually alongside a C172 near Werribee and tried Four times on YMPCK and YMAV frequencies to contact him and resolve our converging paths - no response.

Dizzy Llama
4th Dec 2010, 07:00
I guess there's two sides to that story where if the instructor was on the radio he could then warn other aircraft of a pending problem.

good in theory with just two aircraft until you have a couple of instructors on the ground who think they know what is going on with 5 or 6 and start passing what they think is helpful advice without really having the "picture."

Sounds like a tower I know .... :)

Biggles78
6th Dec 2010, 05:19
Was told by my Instructor to revert to plain English if anything went wrong during my very early solo circuit stage. All my training was at NZCH and one day, about 3rd solo called "EBC downwind 20 Grass". "EBC continue downwind". What seemed like 15 minutes later (was actually about 2) I was still going downwind; I had been forgotton by ATC. Thought if I didn't get a clearance soon I would be over the Chatham Islands (an aprehensive mind starts to work in mysterious ways ) so over the Waimak Bridge I resetablished contact with the Tower and in plain English told them I was still continuing downwind (over the bridge) and what did they want me to do.

Turned Base and had a v e r y l o n g final.

Without that sage advice from my Instructor (thanks Steve) I am not sure how this would have turned out (not enough fuel to reach the Chathams). I didn't panic but I was getting apprehensive. Perhaps this advice should be passed on to new students. Not ideal in busy airspace to have a long winded communication but certainly better than a bad outcome.

Haven't read the linked report yet so I may be talking out of the wrong end of my torso. Apologies if so.

SgtBundy
6th Dec 2010, 12:21
Biggles - my read of the report it seemed like the student either was not paying attention to the calls of other traffic or maintaining an idea of the traffic in the area. The report suggested that english skills were not an issue, so to me that either says they were either too distracted with flying the plane or were simply used to the instructor handling the radio and maintaining situational awareness for them. As someone said above, in some cultures saying "yes" is more important than actual understanding - I know I have seen it in my line of work.

My textbook on radio comms makes it pretty clear though, if you need to talk in plain english to be sure of something, do it. Be clear and concise, but a few extra seconds transmitting is better than faking understanding out of embarrassment and becoming an ATSB report.

Sort of on topic - I was listening to LiveATC the other day for YSSY and there was the normal patter of calls - clean, sharp, professional - proper radio discipline. Then someone came in who sounded like they were having a phone call with their mate. Long rambling calls, lots of 'err' and 'urmmm', incorrect phrases, lack of callsigns, talking to ATC like he was having a chat. About 4 times after getting an ATC instruction he came back with a question for something he missed - but as above, in a long question without callsigns or structure. I mean, I am not even at GFPT yet and it made me cringe. I just wonder how someone gets to be flying a 737 or larger with radio procedure like that.

Toruk Macto
6th Dec 2010, 12:58
Its a cultrural thing and our (Aussie) culture is to say " I have no idea " when we dont . One of the reasons Aussies are employed in cockpits all around the world.