Pan-Pan or Mayday?

[Screwballs]

I was having a chat the other day with another pilot and we were discussing Pan-Pan/Mayday calls. As usual, the comment was made that some countries don't recognise Pan-Pan calls so it would seem prudent to go straight to Mayday in those cases, if the situation warranted it.

However, my question: which specifically are the countries that do not recognise Pan-Pan calls? I made an attempt at reading the French/Italian/Spanish AIPs but did not find the answer. It might be handy to know in advance rather than just a vague idea that it's southern Europe.

Many thanks for replies,

Screwballs

[NigelOnDraft]

See Link (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-374460.html) for past answers... but nothing definitive.

A distress call (situation where the aircraft requires immediate assistance) is prefixed: MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY.
An urgency message (situation not requiring immediate assistance) is prefixed: PAN-PAN, PAN-PAN, PAN-PAN.are the (ICAO?) definitions I work to. NB the "nature of the emergency" is not the issue - but the assistance you require.

More informally, if things are under control, I can adhere to ATC expectations, then a Pan is a heads up to leave me alone and let me sort things out, and I'll let you know when I can what I want from you (ATC). If I cannot comply with ATC expectations/clearance e.g. Emergency Descent, or do need immediate assistance then a Mayday it is.

In our company a engine failure on a twin is typically a Pan, an unextinquished fire a Mayday. Fire goes out becomes Pan. Not getting assistance you require from Pan, upgrade :ok:

Despite some replies you will get, I would suggest it is not clear cut, and is as the situation appears to you, and evolves, on the day - but do NB the definitions above.

NoD

[LH2]

Argh! Not this one again! :}

Nigel, unfortunately your reply does not answer the OP's questions. It's quite an achievement that you managed to thread drift on post #2 :)

However, my question: which specifically are the countries that do not recognise Pan-Pan calls? I made an attempt at reading the French/Italian/Spanish AIPs but did not find the answer. It might be handy to know in advance rather than just a vague idea that it's southern Europe.

As far as I know, your information is incorrect. I cannot give you specific examples of countries that do not recognise a PAN call, because I know of none.

However, since your question appears to be related to a specific part of the world, I have gone and checked, so far, the Spanish and French regulations.

In Spain, the use of MAYDAY, PAN PAN, and PAN PAN MEDICAL, are regulated by the Real Decreto 57/2002, de 18 de enero, art. 2.3.4 (Señales), which refers to Annex C, attachment 1 (Señales de socorro y de urgencia). The specific passage reads

1.2.2. Las señales siguientes, usadas conjuntamente o por separado, significan que una aeronave tiene que transmitir un mensaje urgentísimo relativo a la seguridad de un barco, aeronave u otro vehículo, o de alguna persona que esté a bordo o a la vista:
1) una señal hecha por radiotelegrafía o por cualquier otro método de señales consistente en el grupo XXX;
2) una señal transmitida por radiotelefonía consistente en la enunciación de las palabras PAN, PAN.

In France, this is regulated by the Code de l'aviation civile, Article Annexe I : Appendice 1 (Signaux), . To wit:

1.2 Signaux d'urgence

1.2.1 Les signaux suivants, utilisés ensemble ou séparément, signifient qu'un aéronef désire signaler des difficultés qui le contraignent à atterrir, sans nécessiter de secours immédiat :

a) allumage et extinction répétés des phares d'atterrissage ;

b) allumage et extinction répétés des feux de position effectués de manière à ce que le signal se distingue de celui des feux de position à éclats.

1.2.2 Les signaux suivants, utilisés ensemble ou séparément, signifient qu'un aéronef a un message très urgent à transmettre concernant la sécurité d'un aéronef, navire ou autre véhicule, ou la sécurité de toute personne à bord ou en vue:

a) signal transmis en radiotélégraphie ou par toute autre méthode et constitué par le groupe XXX ;

b) signal radiotéléphonique d'urgence, constitué par les mots PANNE, PANNE ; c) message d'urgence envoyé par liaison de données qui exprime la même idée que les mots PANNE, PANNE.

If I have time latter I'll have a look at the Italian regulations, but in general, unless a contracting state has filed a difference with ICAO respect to Annex II, the standard urgency signals will be recognised. The filing of such a difference will be documented in the relevant country's AIP, section GEN 1.7.

Hope this answers your question.

[BOAC]

I was always told that outside the fine, alert land (that will not be holding the World Cup) you are advised to start with a Mayday and when they have put down their Sangria/Gauloise/Cappuccino/Burger etc etc downgrade to PAN if appropriate.

[Cough]

BOAC,

I'm confused, Germany wasn't bidding for the world cup;)

[Screwballs]

LH2, cheers for the answer, hit the nail on the head. I was under the impression that Spain and France didn't recognise Pan-Pan calls.

Screwballs

[Easy Street]

I've always been led to believe that one should declare "In-flight Emergency" in preference to "Pan-Pan" when stateside - is this based in fact?

[stubby1]

hi & sorry for slight detour.
a q that has haunted me -- if one of the pilot undergoes incapacitation, what call is to be made.
my co. says may day but as per the definition i feel pan is more appropriate

[iakobos]

Mayday, Pan and Sécurité are all derived from nautical signals, visual or morse coded.

TTT SECURITE (warning)
XXX PAN PAN (urgency) (as used by the QF over Singapore recently)
SOS MAYDAY (emergency)

These are valid everywhere on and around the planet since 1906.

[BOAC]

These are valid everywhere on and around the planet since 1906. - you ARE having a laugh, are you not?

[Denti]

I was under the impression that Spain and France didn't recognise Pan-Pan calls.

Dunno about France, but entering spain airspace is a PAN PAN situation in itself, so why should they listen when somebody calls that in?

[iakobos]

- you ARE having a laugh, are you not?

By jove, I should have mentioned that UFOs follow of course different procedures.

[stubby1]

guys anything on my query, above ??

[BOAC]

I'd vote for the MD

[windypops]

If my colleague was incapacitated I would call a Mayday.

My reasoning for it being a Mayday is that I require immediate assistance and would like a controller to help me get on the ground quick smart. I want to be on the ground quickly so that:

a) my colleague can get immediate medical assistance and,
b) I don't want to be in the air any longer than necessary as if we were to have another problem it will be a lot more difficult to manage single crew.

I was taught that at FlightSafety, they briefed us to call it as a Mayday, and I certainly had no problem with that.

windypops

[galaxy flyer]

Isn't "Practice Pan, Practice Pan, Practice Pan" UK slang for "Good Morning, you from the Track System."

GF

[stubby1]

thanx windypops