Pay and allowances

[vecvechookattack]

I heard a rumour that the pay and allowances review had been delayed.... Is flying pay safe then or is still for the chop?

[VinRouge]

Safe I reckon.

They are going to be begging for aircrew in a few years' time and a fair few aircrew would be up sh*t street with their mortgages if they took it away.

[Widger]

dream on guys.........dream on.............

[BootFlap]

Widger,

I guess from your post that you believe Flying Pay will not survive. You're wrong; it's very simple, if you want someone to do 3-4 years training just to get to the front line, followed by a myraid of other courses to increase their effectiveness as instructors (etc) then you will have to pay them extra. Either that or cut the pay of those who don't do these kind of courses.

Of course, if I have mis-construed your post I wait with baited breath for clarification.

[Jayand]

Bootflap read the JSP, flying pay is a retention incentive, pretty soon we won't be needing to retain quite so many people!
I think FP when not on a flying tour will go, it's all about money and we ain't got any.
If people don't like it they can leave, which will suit the MOD to a tee.

[VinRouge]

If anyone thinking flying pay on ground tours is going to get chopped you are delluded. If you think anyone who is at the top of their game in the flying world would even ponder for 2 seconds going into important roles at the IPT or MAA and face a 12 grand paycut, you are more stupid than most bitter and twisted base support wing losers.

[general all rounder]

In reality nobody knows what the final package will look like. However given the sheer ridiculous scale of what has to be saved there is no doubt that some highly unpalatable things will have to be done. It seems to me that no one element of the package will be lopped off completely because of the terminal consequences for retention of the personnel affected. What is more likely is a reduction in the amount paid out in a large number of different areas combined with some tightening on the eligibility or banding rules for things like CEA, HTD and possibly flying pay.

[High_Expect]

There are a lot and I mean a lot of people balancing on the cliff edge of major decisions at the moment. If they removed flying pay this hitting the most experienced hardest they would all just leave.... End of. We may not be aloud to strike but 50% of aircrew in the RAF hitting PVR would have an even bigger effect. Plus they would have to stop all flying as the Flight Safety implication of having such a large number of upset people would be huge. I'd place money on a flying pay increase in about 2 years or at least another round of FRI's. Now stick that in your blunt pipe and smoke it! :-)

[vecvechookattack]

I think that Flying pay will survive but only if you are in a flying job...not a flying "related" job but actually flying current.... if you are not flying current then I'm afraid that you are going to see a pay drop.


Boarding School allowance (or whatever it is called now).... is that safe?

Home to duties (again... whatever that is called).... Thats looking very Iffy...


You are correct that Flying pay is a retention bonus but other posters are correct....we don't need to retain aircrew...in fact we need to make them redundant.... there are a lot of Harrier and Nimrod aircrew looking for jobs....

[Jayand]

And all these peole that would PVR what are they going to leave to do????
On a ground tour? watch out!

[On_Loan]

Since they chopped 25% of Home to duties when the price of fuel was going up and no-one made much of a fuss, i guess it is only time before the rest goes. Similar story with LOA, rumour has it that is next for the chop

[LFFC]

I think the harsh reality is that the Treasury probably won't agree to making redundancy payments to a group of people who are also getting retention payments. :ugh:

[F3sRBest]

you are more stupid than most bitter and twisted base support wing losers

Look in the mirror before you throw stones..... :*

[Trim Stab]

Its purpose 'to attract and retain' remains unchanged


Even when some aircrew no longer have aircraft, and there are no pilot jobs in the civilian sector?

And where does the extra money come from to retain expertise that is genuinely needed at the moment (eg EOD)?

No wonder the Treasury takes such a cynical view of MOD spending.

[just another jocky]

...flying pay is a retention incentive, pretty soon we won't be needing to retain quite so many people!

And yet FP was not reduced or gotten rid of during any of the previous redundancy rounds. :confused:

[downsizer]

And where does the extra money come from to retain expertise that is genuinely needed at the moment (eg EOD)?

They get EOD pay and a £50000 FRI...

Hows that for you?:ugh:

[orgASMic]

It is not enough for me. Especially as you have to do two 6 month HERRICK tours in return.

I have mates who are ATOs and I honestly do not know how they do it. 'Brave' does not begin to describe them.

The question that really needs to be answered is:

Why pay a retention package to someone we do not need to retain?

[Low Ball]

Gentlemen and Ladies if there are any.

Like the service life and a hot jet? Why waste all that expirience and knowledge when you are an ace at weapons and can hover. Ever thought of doing the same but at lower speeds and altitudes but with two engines. Become an Apache pilot.

LB

[Jabba_TG12]

So, it would be safe to say, Vin, you feel quite strongly about it? :}

[Trim Stab]

They get EOD pay and a £50000 FRI...

Hows that for you?:ugh:


I asked where does the money come from?

My point was that rather than asking Treasury to cough up extra UOR money to pay retainers to people who really are needed at the moment, why not end retainers for those who are not in short supply?

[airpolice]

Downsizer, Trim Stab asked where it was going to come from, not where it is going to.

I'm reading all this "they will never cut it" bollox and thinking it seems so like the long list of "they will never cancel MRa4 / we can't not have LRMP / We need the Harriers for the Carriers / Scampton can't close because Nigger is buried there / and all that other stuff that came to pass.

The RAF is too big for both the requirements of the MOD and the available budget.

Any business faced withthis kind of budget crisis would make savage and effective cuts.

Close Kinloss full stop.

Close Lossie, Aircraft and kit to Marham full stop. No need for the OCU, just use existing experienced Pilots & SLF.

Close a handfull of others as well, including Lyneham, on the basis of, aircraft and equipment gets relocated to other stations, and ALL the service people get binned as of the end of the month.

No fannying around, no protecting yer pals. Yer station is out of business and you are out of a job. Real World, Real World, Go!

No Harriers, no need for Harrier drivers. Etc. Etc.

Enough Tonka mates can be found doing other things, including flying Tonkas from Marham.

A quick and easy (on the MOD & RAF) solution.

The people at Kinloss who said it could not be done are seeing that it could. When will the rest of you wake up and see it not only can but very well might, real soon?

I know a Flt Lt getting FP who has not been in the air for 18 months and has no potential for getting off the ground as aircrew ever again.

How can that be right?

Apart from the fact that there are no jobs to go to so they will not be leaving in droves through desire, the RAF has no need for loads of the people it has at present so there is little or no case for looking after anyone.

I'm not saying I agree with the principle, but you all need to accept the possibility.

The people who say we can't manage with less are nearly right. We can't do what we have been doing with half the people, a third of the aircraft and a lot less money.

But that's all that we really need to do a lot less, which is what is being asked of us. Not just in the RAF but all over the UK.

Budget holders have ruined the country, not just bailing out the banks, it runs deeper than that. So many items of waste are under your nose every day. Did the RAF Fight Safety Department really need to produce calendars? How can it be a good idea to spend millions of pounds a year on SSSA so that some staff can be based where they are not required instead of getting them to do the job from an airfield with quarters?

Would recruitment really have suffered without the Typhoon/Eurofighter branded Lanyards to give away at airshows? Do we need to have the AFCO in teh city centre paying a small fortune in rent when anyone who can't find their way to an airfield or a postbox may not be what the recruiters ought to be looking at anyway.

Do we need a 42 in plasma TV in the Guard room for visitors to watch while getting a vehilce pass?

Could we not have continued to use whiteboards and dry markers instead of the ever so clever (and expensive) new interactive stuff?

[vecvechookattack]

Do we need a 42 in plasma TV in the Guard room for visitors to watch while getting a vehilce pass?

Could we not have continued to use whiteboards and dry markers instead of the ever so clever (and expensive) new interactive stuff?

Whiteboards,,,, Chuffin' eck...we still use blackboards and chalk.... we dream of a whiteboard

[VinRouge]

I know a Flt Lt getting FP who has not been in the air for 18 months and has no potential for getting off the ground as aircrew ever again.If he was medically grounded, he would not be in reciept of flying pay. I ask again, how are you going to get peeps with the required experience to go into a 2 1/2 year desk tour unless they get to keep flying pay?

The only other way is promotion. In which case, the MOD will get to pay increased pensions when they come to leave.

Those that seem to think we have a darth of aircrew today are correct. Unfortunately for the RAF, the airline industry is about to pick up globally, and when it does, all those people that nearly defaulted on their mortgages due to a 12K top rate flying pay cut with their desk tour arent going to stick around I would suggest.

We are 18 months off a pretty serious decrease in aircrew numbers, due to the suck from the civil industry. When we have an RAF that has no experience due to the most senior and experienced walking, (because it will be those sorts that WILL leave) I suggest we will have problems. If people are discounting this, do some sniffing. A good place to start would be the number of first tourist pilots currently sitting their ATPL Groundschool exams.

[500days2do]

Quite amazing to read this "they can't do this to us" attitude.

What do you really expect...do you think they really give a fig about you as an individual/sqn/force...?

Its the harsh reality check that has been needed for years.

The attitude of don't worry the queen is paying has had its day...finally...we all paid and will continue to do so for a long time.

5d2d

[orgASMic]

A 'darth' of aircrew? Is that like a 'flange' of baboons?

[Melchett01]

The announcement was due yesterday, but it has been delayed due to the apparent political sensitivities of the impending bad news. Bosses at Land have been told to flag up resultant cases of financial hardship to the chain of command. Guess that says a lot.

No idea what the news is, but suggestions did include that it might end up hitting guys on ops - LSA? Who knows. However, it's now apparently gone political, don't expect anything in the immediate future. Wait until UK plc is having a really really bad day, then we might get to hear something.

[Army Mover]

.....Wait until UK plc is having a really really bad day, then we might get to hear something.

Oh well, Russia just winning the 2018 World Cup may fit the description - stand-by for incoming.

[Blighter Pilot]

Can't see them hitting Op Allowances while we are still engaged in Afghanistan.

LSA may go unless you are actually outside of the UK - not just away from home base.
CEA will go unless you are in SFA.
IE will go.
Disturbance Allowance will go.
HDT (Public) Personal Contribution will go to 9 Miles while the rate is cut.
Motor Mileage Allowance cut or will go.
Expect UK and overseas subsistence rates to be cut.
Mess Dress (SNCO) allowance to go.
Uniform Tax Allowance (Officers) to go.
Civilian Clothing Grant to go.
Unpleasant Working Allowance to be restricted to worst case band.
Multi-Engine In-flight catering to be cut - pax hot meals to go and no rations for crews on local sorties - grab and go to come in and be paid for by individual.
Flying Pay to be reduced/cut and qualifying periods extended.

Merry Christmas:mad:

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

In the Canadian Air Force, aircrew on a ground tour don't keep their flying pay - no retention problem here! With the UK government’s love of anything Canadian right now maybe I should e-mail "call me Dave" and let him know.

CWD

[Jumping_Jack]

Blighter Pilot

I don't think you are far off with that list.

J_J:uhoh:

[Party Animal]

CWD,

The "huge" difference between the RCAF and RAF FP is in the amount. For you - losing 38p a day is not really an issue. For us - losing 13k per year is a big issue.

No-one has mentioned aircrew retention bonuses. Have these already stopped or are certain individuals still picking up 100k pre tax as I type?

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

Party,

I think FP here is more than 0.38p, but then you sort of make my point for me. The CAF manage to recruit and retain aircrew without a very high FP package, so as the UK is strapped for cash right now and for the foreseeable future, why should you guys get paid 13K FP anyway? Is a high rate of FP really reflective of the difference between military aircrew pay and civi aircrew pay these days? I understood that starting salary as a new recruit in the airlines isn't as high as it used to be.

The "Royal" part of the CAF was dropped some time ago.

CWD

[dash2]

CWD,

You're being a bit naughty there and selectively comparing small parts of 2 different systems. Canadian pilots are paid on a seperate payscale and so whilst their FP is small their Captain's pay compares favourably to a Flt Lt who's on top rate flying pay and it's pensionable (accrued at 2% of final salary for each year served if I remember correctly).

Not a bad deal.

Dash2

Ps isn't it the Canadian Air Division now not CAF?

[Trim Stab]

LSA may go unless you are actually outside of the UK - not just away from home base.
CEA will go unless you are in SFA.
IE will go.
Disturbance Allowance will go.
HDT (Public) Personal Contribution will go to 9 Miles while the rate is cut.
Motor Mileage Allowance cut or will go.
Expect UK and overseas subsistence rates to be cut.
Mess Dress (SNCO) allowance to go.
Uniform Tax Allowance (Officers) to go.
Civilian Clothing Grant to go.
Unpleasant Working Allowance to be restricted to worst case band.
Multi-Engine In-flight catering to be cut - pax hot meals to go and no rations for crews on local sorties - grab and go to come in and be paid for by individual.
Flying Pay to be reduced/cut and qualifying periods extended.


Not to mention the savings achieved in cuts to the admin overhead of all that...

[Party Animal]

CWD,

Before Jayand picks me up on the 13k figure - it's actually on a graduated scale for the RAF with a low starting rate of FP building to the higher rate after 8 years. I'm not sure how starting salaries compare between the RAF and the airlines but for the very experienced aircrew, i.e, read across airline captain / AT captain, the 13k (ish) addition is fairly realistic. The real problem though is that our senior aircrew (myself included) have become used to getting the extra pay and have consequently made life decisions (and mortgages) on the expectation of continuing to receive a similar rate. For yourself, the percentage pay cut that you will experience going into a ground tour might not put you off and it could also be advantageous for your career. For us, individuals would not accept the huge percentage reduction so readily, creating havoc in the manning world once SDSR has eventually balanced out.

Apologies about the "Royal" bit by the way!

[Diablo Rouge]

University Air Sqns - ATC Cadet AEF or in short a whole fleet of Grob Tutor aircraft and VGS gliders; BBMF, Red Arrows, Airshows, Recruiting offices, PTIs, Central Messing (kitchens), all remain under the Radar; but for how long.

We cannot afford tradition or nostalgia any more then we can afford to pass on borrowed money in a sub to Eire or continue handing out to third world countries.

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

You are correct; I was being a bit mischievous. I didn't mention that the pay is different from the RAF. Sorry about that. I also accept Party's point about those already on FP making life decisions; maybe (like the AFPS 05 pension) a new FP package could be introduced to new joiners?

The CAF is the wider Airforce, 1 CAD is the same as Air Command in the RAF. There are members of the AF that are not in 1 CAD, such as myself in a Project Office.

One other big difference in pay between the CAF and the RAF is that we got a pay rise this year, I wish I could say the same for my RAF pension.

CWD
:O

[PlasticCabDriver]

Fairly senior Flt Lt (lvl 7) on £44,058, on Enhanced rate FP of £16,147, total pay just on about £60,000.

Sqn Ldr Level 1: £47,760

"Well done Flt Lt Bloggs, you are a snappy dresser and all round good egg, and therefore you have been promoted to Sqn Ldr. Go immediately to the IPT/MAA/JHC/Head office/{insert your choice of ground tour here}, oh and as its not a flying tour, take a £12,000 pay cut, what do you mean you don't want to?".

There is obviously a need to save money, and a lot of it, but a 20% pay cut for your best officers on promotion just doesn't seem like quite the way to do it?

[getsometimein]

As for Canadians with flying pay....

Top level Sgt NCA with middle rate flying pay gets the same amount of money (after conversion) as the top level Sgt Canadian NCA without flying pay... So there is no need for retention because they are already paid much better than the UK equivalents.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

but a 20% pay cut for your best officers on promotion

Experience tells me that lately that is becoming less and less likely :(

[Mr C Hinecap]

take a £12,000 pay cut

That's what happens when people think of it as their basic pay. They live beyond what may be their means. When people talk of financial hardships due to pay and allowance changes, they are probably rather talking about Cpl Scroggins with 2 kids rather than Flt Lt Biggles living at the edge of his FP.

[JliderPilot]

A 'darth' of aircrew? Is that like a 'flange' of baboons?

I thought it was a flange of Engineers

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

That's what happens when people think of it as their basic pay. They live beyond what may be their means. When people talk of financial hardships due to pay and allowance changes, they are probably rather talking about Cpl Scroggins with 2 kids rather than Flt Lt Biggles living at the edge of his FP.

Watching you post over the years confirms that you never really have gotten over the rejection :=

[Co-Captain]

Popcorn anyone?

[adminblunty]

SDSR Pg 31 says:


cutting over £300 million per year by 2014/15 of service and civilian personnel allowancesSo whatever they decide to do with allowances it will be painful.

In the real world pay and allowances rise and fall with the economic outlook, its about time they did in the military. I can see flying pay falling in the near future and raising if, if there is an increase in airline recruitment. As for Flt Lt Bloggs losing flying pay because he's posted to a ground tour, well if Flt Lt Bloggs doesn't like it the door is open and likely to remain so for some time. Oh and it saves on a redundancy payment. If PVRs start to rise, just change the policy again and introduce a FRI. Its called supply and demand. Flying pay and FRIs should be linked to external recruitment activity in the aviation sector.

[rathebelucky]

Perhaps we could just scrub flying pay and consider all aircrew as professional and have a separate, fully pensionable pay scale for pilots, no allowance at all.

I know that times are hard and there is little cash about but this could be funded by going further than simply creating an aircrew pay scale. It could be funded by scaling all officer trades in comparison with civilian life.

The precedent already exists with the Legal and Medical branches

Admin - secretaries. Good healthy saving there, especially in the sticks where most stations are.
Catering - MacDonalds shift manager, more savings. (Assuming the Nav Mafia hasn't wrapped this one up)
Supply - Matalan shop assistant, yep more savings
ATC - LHR vs Dundee. Some savings, some well paid, depending on posting.

And so the list could go on. After all, is there a need to pay all these other branches an 'officers salary' in this time of financial constraint and the need to dispose of all other elements of military tradition and stuff?

Clearly there is the 'we won't recruit the right calibre of individual' arguement; but did we ever?

And of course it's a tough out there. Well it's time to pay the piper and support aircrew properly because that's what all these other branches are there for. After all fast cars and expensive lifestyles are a sacrosanct perk of aircrew and if the Reds and Airshows and all the other good stuff go, how will aircrew attract doris' and create the next generation of greatness.

I leave you with this final point, Treasury and MOD financial policy should not be based on financial decisions personnel made 10-15 years ago based on assumptions about pay being a constant incremental beast, it's a new financial world, and frankly some are lucky to have a job.

Just a thought. Ho Ho Ho

[London Eye]

Admin Blunty Said: In the real world pay and allowances rise and fall with the economic outlook, its about time they did in the military. I can see flying pay falling in the near future and raising if, if there is an increase in airline recruitment. As for Flt Lt Bloggs losing flying pay because he's posted to a ground tour, well if Flt Lt Bloggs doesn't like it the door is open and likely to remain so for some time. Oh and it saves on a redundancy payment. If PVRs start to rise, just change the policy again and introduce a FRI. Its called supply and demand. Flying pay and FRIs should be linked to external recruitment activity in the aviation sector.

Supply and demand might work well for some but is not exactly the cornerstone of an organisation that should and does talk about loyalty. If any employer attempts to use any economic downturn as a remuneration/manning regulator it can only expect employees to expect such behaviour and plan for it accordingly in the good times. It is a little bit like (and I know that it is a stretch so stay with me for a bit) the compassionate repatriation system: it is not only important that an individual is given the treatment that they deserve when things go wrong but that everybody else feels that they would be treated equally well in a difficult situation. If we attempt to use things such as the allowances package as a manning regulator many would be actively looking for a job during any economic good times because they would know what was coming in the next downturn. By all means take flying pay away or reduce it if there is a model that says that you can recruit and retain a viable pool without it; however, using it as a manning lever would be a big step down a sad road.

[VinRouge]

Can someone answer me this: If flying pay is an allowance, whhy do I pay 40% tax on it?

[just another jocky]

Perhaps the Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork should consider some redundancies and re-focus in its own specialist area, starting with the members list. :p

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

It's a retention and recruitment initiative, and it works. If they get rid of flying pay (a 25% pay cut for me) my PVR would be straight in and I know a few others in the same boat. And before every bitter and twisted person starts bleating about how we have too many pilots blah blah blah, just consider that some areas of the RAF aren't exactly overborne with operationally experienced pilots with 1000+ hours on type.
We need to be careful we don't get rid of the wrong people from the wrong areas.

[Chainkicker]

Can someone answer me this: If flying pay is an allowance, whhy do I pay 40% tax on it?

Out in the big wide world some allowances are taxable. Some are not (simples)

[Grabbers]

Jocky, just to help...

Military Aircrew A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.

Now, go back to standing still, lightbulb aloft, and wait for the world to revolve around you. Good boy.
:ok:

[NavyNav2]

I wonder how many aircrew would look to move back into quarters in the short term if they lose their flying pay and have to sell up/rent out their properties. The latter would certainly be the most likley option for me in the short term given that my mortgage is predicated to some extent on my flying pay (that's assuming we still have quarters!!).

[charliegolf]

We need to be careful we don't get rid of the wrong people from the wrong areas.

Absolutely correct, of course. But it rather depends who 'we' is. If you see what I mean?

[just another jocky]

Military Aircrew A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.

Hmmm, there's something not quite right with that quote....

Grabbers, you make me larf! ;)

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

Well it's time to pay the piper and support aircrew properly because that's what all these other branches are there for. After all fast cars and expensive lifestyles are a sacrosanct perk of aircrew and if the Reds and Airshows and all the other good stuff go, how will aircrew attract doris' and create the next generation of greatness.

Wow,

With such insight and knowledge of what it takes to acquire and support a complex aeronautical weapon system, you must be at least a 2 Star!

and frankly some are lucky to have a job I take it this includes Harrier and Kipper Fleet aircrew?

AT and SH fleets excluded, I wouldn't bank on many more future generations of manned fighters; of course I'm sure an argument could be made for keeping FP while "flying" a UAV from a Sea Container just outside Bristol, but I doubt it would be very convincing.

CWD

[Mr C Hinecap]

Watching you post over the years confirms that you never really have gotten over the rejection

It may shock you, but a high percentage of the RAF never have or ever want to be a Pilot. I certainly didn't. I find it amusing that the Aircrew who always claim you 'don't fly mil for the money' get all uppity when anyone else mentions the retention allowance and threatens to storm off in a huff. It is up for discussion along with every other finance-related issue in the military world, no matter how distasteful you find it. Some upcoming cuts will be a big shock to many, given the cuts I see coming in the truly essential capabilities.

[Jayand]

Mr Hinecap is correct, whether or not the allowance cuts are palatable or not is besides the point, they are coming, and whilst we are speculating just now as to what they might be you can guarantee one thing as the SDSR has already shown nothing is safe! so sticking your head in the sand and saying they can't doesn't really work because yes they can.

[BlindWingy]

The beancounters must be laughing it up listening to you lot arguing about which of our hardworking military personnel should take a pay cut.

I'm sorry to be harsh, but divided you will fall - some people posting on this thread really need to get a life!

[vecvechookattack]

I think the previous posters are all correct... Our pay and allowances will be cut - we will see a reduction in our money.... thankfully we still have a job (at the moment)

[ShortFatOne]

I would have happily taken a £15 - 20K a year pay cut if I could have kept MRA4 but I wasn't even offered the option.

[Mightycrewseven]

If FP is to be cut/removed,for those that are lucky enough to be on FP, then I'm sure the bean-counters/airships have considered removing those on PAS to make sure we all take the hit fairly? Let's face it; PAS is more of a retention measure than FP! :ok:

[Co-Captain]

BlindWingy - you are absolutely correct. Pathetic isn't it?! It seems that SDSR has provided the whingers another excuse to raise the old FP debate again - why not set up their own forum where it would perhaps be more welcome / appropriate. One for the mods perhaps?

Might I suggest if you're green-eyed over FP then why not apply for aircrew? If that doesn't appeal then move along, there's good children. Imagine how pathetic we'd sound if the argument went in the other direction, after all, nothing is sacrosanct anymore / all options should be looked at. I shudder at the thought. Embarrassing. . . :ugh:

[retreats to bucket of popcorn]

[davejb]

There really should not be an allowance called Flying Pay -
As an earlier poster suggested, quite rightly in my view, it's about time the one size fits all approach was binned, and people were paid the rate for the job as pay. It is ludicrous to suggest that somebody earning a high percentage of their income as an 'allowance' or 'incentive pay' should avoid counting on it when buying their house etc... what are they meant to do, stuff it in an old sock or bury it for hard times ahead?

To an extent the banding issue deals with it for lesser mortals like what I were, but even then I think many would query how a bandsman ends up higher paid in a fighting service than just about any other trade. Nothing critical of bandsmen there - good on yer for managing it.

Admin Bluntys (sorry, was that something like someone's Pprune ident?) should be paid in line with clerical staff of relevant grades, plus an X factor (if they can sing and dance) for being military... etc etc etc.

Now, that then leaves your sqn aircrew starting at a fairly low pay rate initially, then getting more as the logbook hours and rank increase with competence. (It might be an idea to promote on commonsense and ability, rather than number of charity runs up Ben Nevis with boots full of custard, but that's another argument).

Engineers - brainy sorts, definitely a decent pay packet.

What gets me (most) about this is twofold:

1) I find it incredible that so many on here are quite happy to see maritime and harriers, busy stations, good and effective people being binned... your turn will come, I fervently hope.

2) It's all sharp end stuff that's going - where's the decision to cut what's left of the tail end of the RAF? Sorry to harp on about it (oo, awful pun there) but why the **** do we still have a band if we can't afford any aircraft - the clue is in the 'A' bit of RAF after all....


Dave