Self-Funded TR at Eastern Airways?

[alphaadrian]

Hi Guys&Gals

Does anyone know or know of anyone joining Eastern Airways recently and NOT having to pay for their TR upfront? Or is the "pay up or bugger off" scenario set in stone? Is there a posibility of negotiating a bond or is that cloud cuckoo land. Thanks all and PM me if you would rather..

[Wellington Bomber]

Guys and gals who have been working for Eastern in ops, crewing, cabin crew etc have been bonded, outsiders have to pay for type rating unless you have thousands of command hours and I am sure they will negotiate as long as you will live in Aberdeen and fly the SAAB

[CaptainSox]

So if you have been working as cabin crew for 12 months you dont have to pay upfront the £13 K for a type rating on the jetstream? Or do they just bond you for the cost of that?

In that case what happens to the £8K line training bond?

Cheers:}

[Wellington Bomber]

Bonded for everything if you have been cabin crew

[M33]

Is this speculative questioning? Or those applying have more than 1000hrs?

I just keep getting:


Thank you for your enquiry regarding vacancies within Eastern Airways and for taking the time in submitting your resume. Your details have now been forwarded to our Chief Pilot for consideration against any future opportunities.

Please note our current minimum requirements are 1000 hrs total for FO, 3500 total for captains, and 1000 hrs on similar type.

[alphaadrian]

M33

Dont know about other people but in my case, I have a lot more than 1000hrs.


Alph

[M33]

Alph,

Yeah just wondering, I am just over 800hrs, mostly MEP, but still a few months to go before I reach 1000. Was trying to get a guage if cabin crew gave you a leg up at eastern!

Cheers

[Happy Wanderer]

Chaps, not sure how long this min 1000hrs for FOs req't has been in place, but I certainly know of a few bods who have got in the last few years with a lot less than that.

HW

[CaptainSox]

Yup two guys just started with Eastern on the J41 with around 250 Hours total. :ugh:

[SolentFlyer]

M33,

It is hit and miss with this outfit. Think long and hard about working in the back of a J41 (not fun if you're tall) for a year on a grand a month with no guarantees, then (if you're lucky) ending up bonded for three years for an unrealistic sum on a poor salary (for an F/O) in Wick. :uhoh:

[M33]

SolentFlyer,

Thanks for the advice. I will not be giving up the adhoc flying job ive got to go into the back of an a/c.

Im starting to think that experience for RHS doesnt matter!
:(
Rgds

[Wodka]

CaptainSox - do you know if these 2 guys are already working in the Company in another capacity?

Why do they state 1000hrs when it obviously isn't a minimum? :ugh:

[sapperkenno]

do you know if these 2 guys are already working in the Company in another capacity?

I don't work for Eastern, but I have two good friends there who have worked in Ops for the company for around 3-5 years (maybe longer), who recently got a start as FO's on the J41.

Regards,
Spr K (rtd.)

[pg wing tips]

Alphaadrian, bonded and pay up front arrangements have happened in the past. Not sure how much experience you have but it may alter things a little. If you get the choice the Saab is really the aircraft to go for.

For those who are looking for a start, I would say go for it, apply. Don’t worry too much about the hours requirement, within reason. Just make sure you spend time on your CV. However, I would urge a note of caution with Eastern. Look very hard at what is being offered, how much, how long and where. Some great flight crew and trainers there, but much unhappiness as well. Unstable rosters, low salary, long bonds and the ‘company way’. I would not necessarily think about going the ops or cabin crew route either. Better companies are out there...
PG

[portsharbourflyer]

I understood that on an intake a few years back several pilots at Eastern were on a loan arrangement, in that the company took loans out in the pilots name to cover the type rating and line training; providing you stayed the company covered the loan for the 3 or 4 year duration, but in the event you leave well the loan is in your name so you are liable.

I wouldn't object to flying turboprops again, but when I work the figures through a sstr and line training package on a 737 or a 320 is actually financially more viable than spending fours years on a Jetstream Fos salary. I am not saying I support pay to fly schemes; but the awful terms at Eastern (and other turboprop oparetors) are actually something that has probably contributed to the popularity of pay to fly schemes.

[mikehammer]

Portsharbourflyer

That is a very good point, and true.
However it seems as though the said Jet operators operating pay to fly schemes are themselves coming to the rescue by decreasing terms and conditions for those who are even prepared to shell out for their schemes, including laying off cadets over quiet periods with no strings other than the suggestion that they may be re-hired next season. Perhaps Eastern Airways play on this, either inadvertently, or deliberately?

Anyway, the solution is for all turbo prop operators to pay more, roll on that day, which will never come. Or for fewer pilots to be available, fewer deciding to train. That won't happen either. Perhaps the real answer is for companies like Eastern Airways to realise that investing in their future is a good thing, investing in their staff will generate a return, and will reduce significantly their training costs for those who replace the pilots moving onto pastures new instead of staying for a good lifestyle and reasonable return with a good company who looks after them. It will provide a stable team on which to plan a strong future, and provide for experienced pilots instead of those marking time until the next round of recruitment. It's a mad idea, I know, but it works in many other industries, and is a system exploited by many astute (perhaps now old fashioned) managers.

Then again, what do I know? I'm no accountant after all.

[horsebox]

Self funding is a hard pill to swallow after paying out for all the other training.

The eastern scheme means that you effectively end up working for free for 6 months, which is about the time span it takes you to become useful to them. In return you get a permenant job, a salary (from day 1) , paid holidays, a uniform, staff parking, id pass etc. The training is good, and majority of the staff are friendly and good to work with. You will be kept busy and, whatever your background will learn a great deal.

The 1000 hour is not set in stone, but realistically they need a decent pool of crew who are eligible for command within a year or so of joining, therefore the number of low hours people are kept low.

The company ethos is not to everyones taste, but it has kept us all employed and paid each month during difficult times.

[alphaadrian]

Thanks for all your replies and thoughts guys. Very useful.
If I had no job and 200 hours TT then I may be tempted but i have over 2500 TT and am currently in a TP job that pays better than EA! However, EA basings, job stability and personal circumstances would certainly make EA a strong contender for me. Unfortunetly if you then throw "give us 15k upfront" into the mix...EA then become a hell of a lot less desirable for me personally. If Im gonna pay upfront, then i would rather pay 20k for a useful/jet rating where I can earn 30k+ from the outset

[portsharbourflyer]

Everyone, just like to say it is good to see a thread where everyone is making good rational and reasoned counter arguments to my own post without turning this into the usual anti pay to fly slanging match. STS, Horsebox, Alpha Adrian, Mike Hammer, again I wouldn't dispute any of the points you have made and all things that need to be taken into consideration.

I apologise if I am drifting the thread into a more generic SSTR P2F/ Training bond/low salary debate, but I feel the discussion so far has been raised some very worthwhile issues and is worth continuing.

STS, it was more than two years back I was laid off from my last flying job, the only thing that would make my application attractive to Eastern is the fact I do have turboprop (although not much) time on something alot heavier than a jetstream. I did revalidate my instructors rating 6 months after losing my tp FO job, but have yet to find any part time instructing work to keep the flying CV active. The pay cut I took to go full time instructing in the space of 12 months was easily the same value as an eaglejet pay to fly scheme.

Also you are correct it is easier to find a job when in a job in that field; in 2007 after a season of full time instructing I did get invited to 6 interviews/assessments, misfortunately 3 of those came just as I was about to start employment at a turboprop operator and already signed up to a large bond. Two of those were for jet operators as well, both of which were offering bonding agreements; very frustrating though there is no guarentees that I would have got the other jobs. I suppose the gamble is if you took a job at Eastern and do then get offered a jet job else where, after a year or two on that low salary are you in a position to pay yourself out of the bond/loan agreement.

Alpha Adrian, has hit the nail on the head, it does depend on your personal circumstances, after losing my turboprop job I walked back into well paid aerospace contract engineering work, (it takes me aweek and a half to earn the same monthly pay as an Eastern FO), so this is probably what makes an ptf scheme more viable for me. However I fully appreaciate that not everyone has the benefit of a well paid back up career (also my own circumstances could change and the contract work could dry up). However the benefit of modular training was it allowed me to coincide an engineering career and flight training; so I should make no apologises for gaining a back up career prior to flying.

Horsebox, again agreed to spend a further 30K after training is a bit of a hit, but as my training was a few years back I have now paid off most of my flight training (infact most of my debt comes from money borrowed to support living expenses while working as a full time instructor rather than the flight training itself), again that is my own personal circumstances, doesn't apply to everyone, but there will be others out there who have come out of training with minimal or no debt.


Anyway, I haven't yet been offered an interview with Eastern yet; although my thread has referred to my own personal circumstances, I am sure there are those that are in a similar situation.

Again if I did get a call from Eastern I certainly wouldn't rule it out, but it is something I would need to consider very carefully.

Again, thank you everyone for keeping the discussion constructive.

[sk8erboi]

Sadly I think Eastern is no place for anyone bar the desperate alphaadrian. And certainly not if you have ever seen how a proper airline is run. I meet several of their crews in ABZ frequently and have honestly never met a happy one. Complaints range from very poor lifestyle, dreadful rostering, both long term and intermediate, poor pay and non existent benefits. Ready for a command? If you seem to be lucky enough to be one of their management pets then you can have one. With an £8K bond.
Things will get better soon, and when they do I personally think Eastern will be in trouble. A LOT of people will leave, in their droves and at a far greater rate than anyone could keep up with. For an airline so obviously undercrewed, judging by how badly rostering treat the crews, there could potentially be a lot of disruption.
Things will improve soon. We have just hired at Log. I'm not sure if they paid a rating. I'll try to find out. We are far far from being a good airline ourselves but compared to Eastern it feels like BA!

[frank booth]

Forget about people leaving in droves, won't happen. The few going to jet2 are an anomaly.
Accountants running airlines don't recognise the term experienced fo. They do recognise the term cheap fo, and courtesy of CTC/OAA there are an abundance.

The industry has changed for good I'm afraid. Go fly a TP, its fun, but don't expect to fly a jet afterwards without self funding the rating.

[Mister Geezer]

Granted, Eastern have never been the most attractive to work for and I doubt that things will change in the foreseeable future.

Eastern gave me my first job nearly some seven years ago now and whilst the way the type rating is funded has completely changed, the varied and solid experience that one can build on whilst in a first job remains largely unchanged.

I flew the J41 and went all round Europe on charters in addition to seeing all the scheduled network. It was a very solid grounding which meant that when a opportunity to move on came up, I had little problems moving onto a jet and was in the LHS of a jet within 18 months of leaving Eastern.

The salary at Eastern has always been pitiful and there is bugger all in the way of benefits. However it has always been a 'training' airline and that will probably not change. You simply join, build up your experience and move on to something that is more attractive to your wallet and your lifestyle.

I don't agree with the self funded rating modus operandi, however I am not surprised. The salary is low since they will always have people wanting to join and the same can be said for making people cough up for a type rating.

[frank booth]

Scratchingsky, looks like you left a couple of years ago. As I said the industry is radically different, a couple of years ago may as well be last century.

Lets have a look at where the TP expeirence may take you.

Easy jet - used to be 500 factored hours to apply. Not anymore, its CTC or nought. So much for a variety of backgrounds

Ryanair - got multicrew expeirence? Then no assesment for you

BA - At the present time, Typed only, may change, but even if they do accept TP guys its gonna be a tiny percentage of the required.

Monarch - used to be a good bet. Just taken on Typed only, probably ex CTC flexi crew with 150hrs care of Easy jet. Not likely to change in the future is my guess

Thomson - Will probably recall the redundant pilots first, then any future recruitment would probably be on to the 738 from you know who

Thomas Cook - CTC and that other appalling p2f scheme

BMI main line - Appalling p2f scheme care of a wonderfull Easy jet Captain
Bmi Baby - Buy the rating first, then maybe

Jet2 - bit better, but still pay for the rating

And thats your lot folks, apart maybe for DHL, and the delights of balmy, luxuriant East Germany.

Merry Xmas, and good hunting......

[Northern Highflyer]

FB - How true.

There is no sensible progressive path through the industry anymore, and the evolution of the P4TR culture (regardless of experience) in the few years since I trained is unbelievable. Unless you are happy to pay each time you want to 'progress up the career ladder', you aren't going to get very far, bar a few exceptions.

Eastern were one of the airlines that appealed to me when I walked away with my shiny blue book, but even they leave a bitter taste in the mouth now. To pay £13k for the type rating and then pay a further £20k plus a few years down the line when you move on is just crazy.

The initial cost might be worth it if it was a one off expense that gave people a start in the industry, allowing them to use the experience gained to move on in the future at no further cost. Alas that is no longer the case and it's pay all the way.

[CaptainSox]

Thats just the way things are now. And it does leave you with a bitter taste in your mouth which is very sad.

So much for the instructor route, turbo prop time which both leave you with no money and just about enough to pay the bills. And then get asked to pay another 20K+ to fly a shiny jet. Invaluable experiance instructing and turbo prop time which I know I am a better/ safer pilot but what about my mates who did not go down that route and just falked out the 30K to fly a jet straight out of training. There better off now money wise, progression ect....but are they safer than me? Are we loosing that standard and experiance over time with these schemes? I believe we are and only time will tell.:eek:

[PaulW]

Yes terms and conditions aren't the most glamorous in the industry, but in all fairness the pay ramps up very quickly.
Basic 20500 plus increments, no one earns this amount. Absolutely everyone has an increment from day one. A year 3 scatsta Saab Fo joining the company on 400 hours and building a further 2000 turbine in that time will typically take home 2300 net. I'll add that this pay deal is over three years old and overdue a review. There is no pension, and you will work very very hard, with regular changes on an almost daily basis. However it is an excellent first job, it's a real shame it's not a career.
If you join eastern with high total time and plenty of turbine the money is as good as the 70 percent deals available from jet2 etc. No pension though and you need to be flexible but it's a fun place to work. Breadth of experience and types of flying very wide with great training. Regional, european Acmi charter, VIP charter, cat c airfields.
Including experience in the arctic circle.
Edited after re reading in order to generalise.

[silverknapper]

Quickly reading your last post Paul W, doesn't look as though it stacks up to me. You are saying that an Eastern FO with 3 years service earns around £37k, give or take £1k for lesser tax burden on the duty pay.

Seems unlikely to me.

[Drakestream]

Interesting post PaulW, thanks. I'm trying to do my figures at the moment based on my current situation. I'm a turboprop SFO at my current company overseas with roughly 1200TT and 800 turbine, my take home at my current company is about £2100 NET. I'm pretty keen on moving back to Blighty, but only for the right deal. Going by your calculations I'd be looking at taking home about £1700 a month give or take? Would you say that's accurate? If so it is a pay cut I'd seriously consider just to get home.

[Wellington Bomber]

Drakestream

I response to Paul W quotes regarding salaries, I would get your Green book before you even attempt to get into Eastern.

All the experience will be looked on as good, but there are different pay scales for First officers and Senior First Officers, without the green book you will be looked on as the latter

[PaulW]

1700 is about right. And yes 2300 is correct, scatsta pay makes a big difference. Wellington bomber has sound advice.

[Drakestream]

Thanks for the words of wisdom chaps. Am between a rock and a hard place at the moment as I'm tying the knot in three weeks time and don't really want to be spending months on end away from home anymore. However, my current company might, possibly, maybe, at a push, supposedly be getting J41s in the next couple of months. I'm in line to be one of the first to be transferred over to the 41 if it happens. However, it will be on an FAA type rating, so I'll need at least 500 hours on type in order to move the TR on to my JAA licence. That could possibly mean another 9 or 10 months out here after I'm married, which would be less than ideal.

All that being said, I haven't actually been offered anything yet, I've only exchanged a few emails with Steve Jenkins. But fingers crossed.

[SW1]

Drakestream,

Have you looked at these lot? Keeps you in the UK

Birmingham European Airways (http://www.birminghameuropean.com/)

[Drakestream]

Yeah, I have thanks SW1. Not sure if they'll ever get going though. Thanks for the heads up though!

[CaptainSox]

Any more news or developments with Eastern at the moment?