London Business Flights - Airports

[John R81]

Hi

I am Rotorhead, over here to ask a question.

For business jet flight with passenger accessing London city, what are the airport alternatives, and what are the relevant benefits of one v another?

I am trying to understand the relative merits of (eg) Farnborough v Biggin to its customers (I assume the operator to be the customer, but correct me if the passengers are the ones who chose which airport to use).

Thanks

John

[chevvron]

Passengers are often the driving force for departure airfields. Someone living in (say) Ascot would obviously want to fly from their nearast available airfield and rather than drive to Biggin would prefer Farnborough. I think levels of customer service from the FBOs at both airfields are about equal, but I know that at Farnborough, the customers appreciate being able to drive to the aircraft (under escort of course) to unload their luggage and get straight on the aircraft. Occasionally the customers arriving like to have a helicopter waiting for their arrival and this is obviously not possible at London City.

[John R81]

Thanks

Is that the same for inbound? Do passengers specify where to land?

As between Farnborough and Biggin, any differences in transport options to the city (aside from Helo's which operate from both).

Does it make any difference (do you think) who the airport operator is?

Regards

John

[silverknapper]

Depending on which end of the market you're at the landing fees may enter into th equation. Farnborough being more expensive than Biggin.

[Trim Stab]

Is that the same for inbound? Do passengers specify where to land?


YES.

I fly regularly to London destinations and this is the absolute first requirement in the request from 99% of retail brokers.

Retail brokers are mostly too lazy or inept to look into doorstep to doorstep costs for their clients and stubbornly insist on transport to the airport geographically closest to the client's doorstep destination, whatever the cost (indeed, higher costs are better for them!). Even after we advise that it will be quicker and cheaper to fly to a different airport, and take a helitransfer, retail brokers are not interested in doing such a service for their clients - it is just more work less commission for them.

There is a similar paradox between Monaco and Nice/Cannes. Retail brokers sell flights to Monaco based clients from Nice (with all its terminal hassles) when for another five minutes in a helo, they can have a hassle free departure at lower cost from Cannes.

But the same retail brokers often even succeed in selling a Cannes-based aircraft to a Monaco-based client for a Nice departure - work that one out if you can...

[dc9-32]

Also consider that EGLF is not open at weekends to non based aircraft and thsoe with a wingspan of less than 30m.

There's always alternatives. Luton, Fairoaks, Biggin Hill, Stansted.

[hollingworthp]

By some twist of physics, Oxford airport is apparently now in London.

[John R81]

Sorry, that shoul have read "By some twist of marketing ....."

Much easier, I think

Thanks for the replies.

Which "London" airport do you as pilots prefer, and why?

Thanks

John

[controlx]

You may mock London 'Oxford' Global Spaceport International, but it's begining to get some serious metal - this Embraer 190 (Lineage) turned up to live at the airport last week:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVOdA-dpZto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVOdA-dpZto)

Hangar 8 plc are operating it on their AOC for some Asian conglomerate. Can get to Dubai or New York out of OXF which is pretty impressive!

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Hardly by choice, it always is more beneficial if you own the airport...

Tends to help with the parking and landing charges if you own the gaff.

You wont get anything much bigger than a midsize basing themselves there purely because of the lack of tarmac. All the best to Oxford though for reinventing itself from a GA/Training airfield to the next "London" airport.

Personally I think Luton's stretching the "London" connection

[Biggin Still]

London Lydd anyone??

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Or London Le Bourget

[Opsbeatch]

Only a 'short train ride away'...!

OB

[controlx]

G-Spots - hate to have to correct you, but according to the Hangar 8 plc guys, Oxford's just build several acres of new heavy jet apron and that home based EMB-190 is not owned by the airport's owners, it's owned by some Asian conglomerate (India?). There's quite a lot more tarmac than there used to be. Hangar 8 have Falcons and Challengers based there too.

[HeliAl]

Don't forget Southend airport. 24/7 with ILS.
Closer to Battersea than Farnbourgh.
Closer to the Business end of town.
Easy departures into the airspace around the TMA
Good rail link train every 20 mins and 50 mins to Liverpool street station.
Better weather record than most airports around London.
And new hotels going up to suit the crews.:)

[Fosters]

However with a registration of something like G-RBNB/G-RBNS (can't remember which) there is absolutely no connection with the airport owners. !

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Controlx dont worry about correcting me my FO does it all the time

G-RBNB.....no relationship to the reuben brothers at all then ...check your source :=

Wasn't on about the parking more the runway length/width 1500 odd metres is too short for anything to get off at gross this side of a Sovereign.

Its too short for a hawker XP public transport

Its also bloody narrow.

So errrr no!

Its alright basing airplanes there, they just need to operate from elsewhere if you wish to use the available range.... people dont buy a 900 or a glex to go to Jersey (in the main)

[controlx]

G-Spots

I think you might be a bit behind the curve - we go into OXF fairly routinely, a couple of times each month perhaps, and the 1552m by 30m runway was brand new in 2007 when they put in the ILS - 30m isn't narrow?! When it was 23m, that was narrow. They've got F900s, Globals and Gulfstreams going transatlantic out of there and virtually all Hawker models can go anywhere in Europe and beyond from there - not everyone needs to operate at max gross?

I think you'll find the airport's owners have bought a few Embraer products (a couple of Flairjet's Phenoms and one of LEA's Legacys?) but the Lineage for one has apparently been sold - it's not theirs anymore, still has the old reg though.

Not wishing to dismisss other options - Southend, Cranfield and Cambridge also have their merits as London access points, but opening hours, ease of access, ground services, FBO standards etc. may be all of significant relevance to the originator of the thread? Our boss lives north west of central London, so the M40 to OXF is easiest for us. We've been Biggin and Luton based in the past with different aircraft. Kensington to Biggin can take up to two hours in south London traffic, whilst OXF is a bit over an hour most of the time.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

I beg to differ old chap - 30m is defined as a narrow runway (45 istandard) a lot of manufacturers will start to impose reductions on x wind limits on 30m or less....

Great in summer - not so good in winter.

Would love for you to back your comment up with some facts please

A GLEX - 6 Hrs fuel wet runway 1550meters..... or does it not rain in Oxford?

[Phil Brockwell]

Kidlington (London Oxford) is nowhere near 1500m usable

London Oxford (Kidlington) Airport EGTK/OXF - New Runway and ILS Program Update (http://www.oxfordairport.co.uk/pilots_guide/runway_ils_update.htm)

PB

[golfbananajam]

What about Londons very own business aiport, Northolt?

[choxs]

Northolt - excellent Location, however cost and hours do let you down.

Depending on aicraft type - many of my clients have used Blackbushe...have found it very cost effective with good access into London.

I agree with an earlier comment, cranfield is very well situated and with the M1 now complete its a good drive to north london especially for football nights!

[chevvron]

I hope you mean The Emirates not WHL.

[helisniper]

HeliAl,

Southend closer to Battersea than Farnborough? You need a new ruler!

[HeliAl]

Try flying direct from Farnbourgh to Battersea without p***ing off Hthrow. You can fly direct from Southend.!!:ok:

[OAGAG]

Minor point - but our place (OXF) has been open all day today and most of yesterday whilst others around London have been doooomed - very busy day.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Oh good god.....Blackpools been open all day today too

BLACKPOOL LONDON AIRPORT

You cant change Geography :rolleyes: and the fact that you got lucky with some weather means what exactly....?

Oxford paying you chaps a retainer to big the place up on Prune...

So far Oxfords great cos we've had no snow and we've got lots of heavy iron going transatlantic off 1300m. :uhoh:

It is what it is .....an ex GA field with a training school which means lots of VFR traffic outside CAS with a operationally limiting runway . Its cheaper to park there than at the other London airports which is its reason d'etre probably.

Great little VLJ base possibly but thats about it

Great place to operate to and nice FBO/Ops staff but they've hardly got Harrods worried have they.

[helisniper]

HeliAl,

Have you ever flown to Battersea? Have you heard of H3??

If you tried going "direct" from EGMC to EGLW you'd also P*** London City off.

The facts are:

EGLK to EGLW via the outside of the SE corner of the LHR CTR is about 34nm. H3 would be shorter (30nm) but isn't always available (when LHR are on easterlies). Minimal risk of delay approaching from the S.

EGMC to EGLW via Ally Pally or thereabouts (to keep clear of LCY traffic) is over 39 nm. Some risk of delay due common Police Heli activity over the City.

:)

[Tupperware Pilot]

Some photos of Oxfords new apron and G-RBNB here!
Oxford from the Air - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tupperware_pilot/sets/72157625347263495/with/5209505332/)

And a large one here... Photos: ERJ 190-100 ECJ Lineage 1000 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/ERJ-190-100-ECJ/1825357/L/)

[silverknapper]

So how many transatlantic movements are there at 'London' Oxford on a weekly basis?!
As G-SPOT says it is what it is. A training field. Period. Far too many light aircraft buzzing about on the procedures. I have forgotten how many times I have been put in the hold for inordinate amounts of time while all the Senecas/seminoles fly the procedure at 100kts.
I can just imagine one of these fancy Lineages coming back from NY or Dubai. Smooth flight all the way, pax looking forward to getting on the deck and starting their day.
Nearly home, transferred to Oxford:
"Oxford good morning Lineage xyz inbound"
"Lineage xyz good morning. take up the hold at OX, you are number 6 in IFR traffic EAT is 40 mins from now" :ugh::ugh:
Some days you would indeed be quicker going to Blackpool and driving from there to London.

[First.officer]

I have forgotten how many times I have been put in the hold for inordinate amounts of time while all the Senecas/seminoles fly the procedure at 100kts.


Having flown out of and into OXF regularily over the last few years in CJ's, have to say that i can't ever recall being delayed excessively due to the training traffic at the field.....guess you must just be a little unlucky ?

[chevvron]

Farnborough doesn't have a hold, so you get streamed straight into the pattern by radar. Biggin is similar, but the same controller vectors for London City on roughly the same routings, so there might, just might, be a slight delay.

[galaxy flyer]

If you call CYYT or CYQX "transatlantic" in a GLEX or G550, yes you can on a wet runway ex-OXF. It you mean NYC, I'm afraid not. A GLEX can take about 24,000 of fuel out of OXF. That might make St John, NB.

GF

[fairflyer]

Point of note, just seen that OXF has increased its declared runway distance by 21% overnight. How can they do that? Surely they need planning permission etc.?

[G-SPOTs Lost]

GF

Ok you got me, technically you might (your might not mine!) make YYT, if you translate that eastbound its not even technically the middle east.

Horses for courses I guess, if you want to buy a GLEX and go to Nice and back then I suppose Oxford stacks up.

If you want some operational flexibility well OXF is probably not for you