Newcastle Plane off the Runway

[wannaBAgrad]

I've heard from a friend that a plane has come off the runway at NCL in the past 20mins or so. Looks as if other planes are circling the city. Any news on this?

[Coffin Corner]

Any idea which airline? If it is indeed an airliner?

[d105]

Their website is redirecting to a default "traffic overload" page. It says the airport is open and aircraft are arriving and departing.

[wannaBAgrad]

Don't know which airline.

Newcastle Airport - Arrivals & Departures (http://newcastleairport.com/FlightInformation/ArrivalsDepartures.htm?ArrDep=From)

Above website shows flights currently being diverted. BA flight from LHR returning to LHR.

[adverse-bump]

>>> Egnt (newcastle) <<<

Metar 252120z 31010kt 7000 Few004 Sct010cb M01/m01 Q1009

Taf 251701z 2518/2618 32007kt 9999 Sct025 Tempo 2518/2618 4000
-shsn Bkn010 Prob40 Tempo 2518/2521 1400 Shsn Bkn004


New Today Til 1011252215
Runway Blocked Due Disabled Aircraft : Notam Eg/c5517/10

>>> End-of-bulletin <<<

[SWBKCB]

I've heard something similar - two Jet2's currently holding overhead (look like last night's mail flights positioning back in). AF gone to EDI, BA back to LHR(!) and KL to MME

[eick]

Thomsonfly.

[d105]

252119 Euecyiyn
(c5517/10 Notamn
Q)egpx/qmrlt/iv/nbo/a/000/999/5502n00142w005
A)egnt B)1011252115 C)1011252215
E)runway Blocked Due Disabled Aircraft)

[SWBKCB]

Been told that passengers are being put onto coaches back to the terminal, so hopefully nothing too serious.

[paddy_22002]

Landed on it a 1700. 6mm wet snow.

[rotorcraig]

Sky News reporting (on TV, not website yet) that Newcastle Airport is closed following "a minor incident"?RC

[RingwaySam]

Should be a TOM1445 from Lanzarote which makes it a Boeing 737-800, G-FDZR.

[robinpiper]

Thomson Boeing 737-800 from Arrecife
Anybody know the reg?

[ACARS]

Thomson slid off an icy runway this evening. Closed at the moment. They are trying to move the aircraft at the moment.

[AppleMacster]

Thomsonfly at NCL (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11843907)

[Monde]

Runway 07 in use . Tailwind!!

[ROSUN]

EXS008S must have gone dizzy. 10+ racetrack loops over NCL and 4 more over MAN. Last seen heading for LTN / STN?

[PANDAMATENGA]

Ok guys/girls.
To save ourselves from the inevitable why did this happen etc etc etc.My unofficial sources reveal the following:
Pilot error not adhering to SOP's.
Tailwind landing icy runway.
Had this been an Airbus,would not have happened.
nobody injured therefore not serious.Nothing to see here move on.
That should save at least 10 pages of the usual BS!

Cheers
Panda

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Panda, you forgot:

I've landed in weather like this more times than you've had hot dinners, eyes closed, one arm tied behind my back blah blah blah etc.,

Also: My friend who's a pilot reckons...

:=

[loopylee]

reported to be G-FDZR

[N707ZS]

"They seemed fine in all honesty, it's just they were disembarking in a different position. Most of them did not realise anything was different".

Must be one of the all time best from the media.

[reverserunlocked]

'The front nose wheel of the aircraft remained on the hard surface of the runway at all times' according to the beeb report, so hardly even an overrun.

Not even any need for Joe Patroni and one of his cigars!

I bet the inbound (and then put outbound) BA had some very unhappy Geordies on it when they found themselves back at LHR!

[Bolli]

From what i know, Newcastle/Druham has quite a bit of snow. I wonder whether this was a factor- if it was still falling?

Also looking at the end of the runway, there are a series of crosses, from what it sounds like, it stopped on those.

Newcastle Airport closed after jet skids on runway | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3246706/Newcastle-Airport-closed-after-jet-skids-on-runway.html) has a larger picture

[D O Guerrero]

I blame Ryanair. How come no-one has mentioned this? They fly the 737-800 after all. Must be something to do with pay-to-fly cadets.

[rottenray]

DO - absolutely hilarious.

Thanks for a good laugh.

RR

[BlueTui]

Thomson Airways the media are fools, one would of expected better on here.

[martinidoc]

I departed ncl yesterday am. Very little snow but seemed to take a long time to clear runway. Before the Copenhagen/Parkin cuts about 5 yrs ago there enough ploughs to keep rwy and taxiways clear pretty well all the time. Probably had to close airfield because they didnt have enough staff or equipment to move A/C. Would be interested to know what the rwy condition was at time.

[helen-damnation]

I blame Ryanair

Very good. However, MOL is still a T#@t.

End of threadcreep :O

[BOAC]

It's called braking. - actually, N49, that is more likely to be called 'antiskid activity' which gives us a little clue as to what was happening. Any BA/Snowtam for the period available?

[BEagle]

Actually Nicholas49, what the passenger described sounded very much to me like the anti-skid system in operation: "The pilot was putting the brakes on and off".

To me this indicated that the runway surface friction coefficient was pretty low.

[APR to Arm]

The previous report of 6mm Wet snow is incorrect it was reported as 5mm which in my opinion it was not. It was more like 2mm and DRY and there were no reports of the braking action. The landing Speedbird prior to our departure reported that the braking action was good.

[Tashengurt]

I'm always impressed by how quickly the most uncontroversial thread descends into bitching about trivia. This one takes the prize.
It was 6mm, it was 5mm. It was braking, it was anti skid. They said it, we said it. YAWN F*CKING YAWN!

[Nicholas49]

BOAC / BEagle - fair enough, if that's what he really said. Post deleted.

I still find it ridiculous that everything aviation-related must be dumbed down to such an extent when discussed in the press. Could we not temporarily lift the ban on pilots giving interviews to the press so they could explain what really happened?! And yes, I do know why that can't happen!

[tyne]

You fly planes - people are interested in that. A plane makes a landing that is not normal - that sadly is news.

I think the problem with aviation reporting is that the public in general are still scared of flying. Its that all or nothing situation if it goes wrong so there is that "what if" "It could have been me" factor.

Yes I know its not as simple as that but, what you do interests the public. The press cover it.

Its up to the airline media people to manage the press and do it properly.. Thats a very skilled job. Play it down, you are accused of covering stuff up. Give them everything and its hype.

[HighLow]

News Reports coming through of a ThomsonFly aircraft overshooting the runway at NCL.....

Lets hope this is NOT a repeat of last year when many UK Airports failed to uphold their responsibilities during winter operations.

ATC not prepared to give a braking action is threading on thin ice to say the least, Expecting the flight crew to make an assessment (from the flightdeck???)...This is just not acceptable,

The CAA will have to act now.
Safety Issue for sure, if things are left the way they are.

Suspect if the freeze continues or gets worse, this will not be the only runway excursion this winter season

High Low

[Abbey Road]

Lets hope this is NOT a repeat of last year when many UK Airports failed to uphold their responsibilities during winter operations.

ATC not prepared to give a braking action is threading on thin ice to say the least, Expecting the flight crew to make an assessment (from the flightdeck???)...This is just not acceptable, And flight crews need to exercise some judgement too, perhaps? If enough info not available, divert?

Have you any idea how difficult it is for even the most experienced experts to make accurate assessments of Braking Action on contaminated runways? :rolleyes:

[jackharr]

Off piste or piste off?

Jack

[HighLow]

With the greatest of respect, airports have been giving assessments of braking action for decades...all airports EXCEPT the UK?

Pilot Judgement? a bit hard descending down through 10,000 feet
We as pilots need information to make a judgement..with airports refusing to give braking action coefficients etc.. this is just turning into a farce

[F14]

I agree, the rest of the world seem capable of producing Braking Actions and accurate information on contamination. The UK is a joke in this respect. :ugh:

I too feel that the UK CAA have to step in now. Even give the Canadians a call if we don't have the knowledge for cold weather airfield ops.

[Teevee]

What was the weather at the time and what runway was in use?

[yeoman]

It hasn't overshot the runway.

Move along. Nothing to see here.

[HighLow]

Yeoman,
are you stating fact, and news authorities are just making stuff up?

"In icy conditions last night, a plane with 196 passengers overshot its landing position at Newcastle airport.
No one on board the Thomsonfly Boeing 737-800 from Lanzarote was injured, but the airport was closed for a time after the incident."

Snow Settles Across Britain On Friday As Weather Set To Deteriorate Next Week | UK News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Snow-Settles-Across-Britain-On-Friday-As-Weather-Set-To-Deteriorate-Next-Week/Article/201011415833744?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15833744_Snow_Settles_Across_Britain_On_Friday_A s_Weather_Set_To_Deteriorate_Next_Week)


and if you check out the Newcastle Airport website, its redirecting you to a screen explaining.... well see it for yourself!!!

Newcastle Airport - Winter Information (http://www.newcastleairport.com/)


and Yeoman, not sure where you coming from with that post, you actually denying something happened? another link for ya...
Pilot hailed after emergency landing at Newcastle Airport - Chronicle News - News - ChronicleLive (http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/north-east-news/evening-chronicle-news/2010/11/26/pilot-hailed-after-emergency-landing-at-newcastle-airport-72703-27721271/)

[Hooligan Bill]

F14 and Highlow,

The UK CAA have stepped in and they have said that when measuring braking action in conditions of slush or thin deposits of wet snow, friction measuring devices can produce inaccurate readings. in conditions of slush, or uncompacted snow, no plain language estimates of braking action derived from those readings shall be passed to pilots. In this case, pilots shall be informed on the RTF that measurements of co-efficients of friction are unreliable in conditions of slush or thin deposits of wet snow and, consequently, braking action assessments are not availab

[F14]

Bill,

So how can the rest of the world give Braking Actions under these conditions?

[HighLow]

So the UK are correct? and FAA? airports in Nordic countries? all are wrong and "INACCURATE", very serious claim by the CAA indeed..

Your statement "The CAA have stepped in" is just nonsense, they have stepping in alright....and that is why they do NOT give us braking actions....just tell me exactly how they do it elsewhere?


You see whats happening here...
the UK airports (in conjunction with the CAA) want business from airlines, and will collect landing charges off each aircraft that lands..

they would rather say everything is ok.. and if an aircraft touches down, the airport get paid HAPPY DAYS.

if the airport authority started telling the TRUTH and stating when braking action was POOR, they would loose this income source due to aircraft diverting elsewhere!!

This is a money making racket and the expense of SAFETY!!

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

Welcome to the world of Litigation.

If the airport gives a reported braking action as medium and an aircraft skids off the runway, it is the Airports fault. Wonder why we get limited information????

If that information is not given, it has to be the Pilot's fault for the subsequent excursion as they failed to make an accurate assessment of the conditions. As mentioned previously I would find that very difficult to do at 10,000 ft. Moreover, I have been flying for 18 years and when I touch down and use a combination of Antiskid, Autobrake and Reverse Thrust, I would find it impossible to say whether the braking action was poor, medium, good medium to poor or any combination thereof. It can only be done on the ground, using approved techniques, regardless of the difficulties in obtaining the figures.

We can only make a decision with the information available, and braking actions are a vital part of the decision making process. I do not know if braking actions were given on this occasion although being fair, I have found NCL ATC to be very helpful during my 7 seasons of winter ops. I hope this incident will not prevent ATC passing on information in the future.

Ultimately, the aircraft stayed on the hard stuff, no-one was hurt and the aircraft can be used again. Can we avoid the hysteria please.

Ps if the crew are reading this, there, but for the grace of god, we all go. ( strange expression from an agnostic, but you get the message of support)

[A4]

Hooligan,

That's been the CAA stance for a long while. After last winter they were undertaking a complete review.

Pretty uncomfortable feeling when you have no hard info as to what braking action is likely to be. Not much use being told it's "unreliable"! :\ Kind of puts all the emphasis (read pass the buck) on you to make an approach or not.

Fly safe everyone.

A4

[1.6vs]

Stop Press! Aircraft misses 'turn off' exit. Passengers are forced to use steps provided by handling agents. Wow!!, can,t wait for the next Blockbuster!

[HighLow]

Flyit,

i agree with the majority of your comments, but this is not hysteria!!

trying to land a 60 tonne aircraft on an ice rink, with no hope in hell of stopping, thats when things get nasty.

At the end of the day, its the flight crews licence and job on the line
and peoples safety, so I would have to respectively disagree with your assertion that this is hysteria.

1.6V, your tone is noted; this is a debate about the current situation facing pilots landing in UK during Winter Operations ; Remember any of us can have a fright with the impending cold weather, landing on ice could happen to YOU and I trust after you experience such a slide, you wouldn't be so condescending in the future.

[eastern wiseguy]

I hope this incident will not prevent ATC passing on information in the future.

NATS aerodrome controller here. We are FORBIDDEN to even know the results from the griptest results. We cannot pass braking action as the CAA tell us the machine will only measure the braking co-efficient of wet runways.

Makes me uncomfortable too......although with a hell of a lot less at stake.

[JockMcToff]

HighLow- you're only adding to the hysteria! Must be a slow news day where you are!

Read the other threads on the subject and the press reports. And yes, I do believe the news "authorities" have made stuff up. Of course normally all their well written articles are done by experts on the subject matter!

Think about it:
BBC Headline news... Plane off the runway "skidding" into a field... Tyne and Wear Fire service said the aircraft had gone very slightly off the runway, but the wheels remained on the asphalt at all times... erm, so it didn't really skid into a field then or leave the runway, not much on an excursion really!

Next it will be reported the airliner narrowly missed a school/hospital/orphanage (delete as applicable)

Pax using stairs? If they were flying RYR they'd have had to pay extra for that! :E

Aircraft undamaged, pax and crew safe, end of story.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Newcastle once told me that no braking action could be given until snow had stopped falling and lain for 30 mins to "stabilise" for accurate readings. Thus no landing is prudent either during snowfall or until 30 mins after it has ended and a satisfactory reading been received.
I wonder if the same timescale applies to post snow-clearance?

As I have no wish to be dubbed "heroic" from now on any time there's recent snow or slush of any sort and "braking action not available" I'll be going elsewhere. And hopefully avoid having to kiss the ground in relief because of it.

Incidentally, there was a thread on this subject that had gone to 15 posts or so by 2300 last night and now seems to have disappeared! Met reports published on it implied a tailwind...

[1.6vs]

HMMMMM Looks like the mods aren't too excited about it either. come on hardly news eh!;)

[Firestorm]

A4. My information is that the CAA haven't actually started the complete review yet, and my opinion is that they will probably put off doing it for as long as they can get away with it. If I was to to opine that it is an excersize in protecting certain bottoms from being blamed, and passing a buck to someone else's bottom, and you were to opine that my view was cynical I wouldn't pick a fight over your opinion!

I'm not sure that this is suitable material for passengers and plane spotters. Mods care to comment?

Eastern Wiseguy: I know your restrictions on passing braking action and runway conditions, but I expect that a message was put on the ATIS to say that the runway was blocked by an aeroplane which is an unambiguous summation of the runway condition: unusable!

[eastern wiseguy]

Firestorm...of course but I thought we were talking about the inability of ATC to pass accurate braking action.

Runways can become blocked on the warmest driest of days as well....:)

[yeoman]

Edited to read

I give up.

[Checkboard]

METAR EGNT 251920Z 31009KT 8000 SCT010 SCT025 00/00 Q1010
METAR EGNT 251950Z 31006KT 9999 FEW010 SCT015CB M01/M01 Q1010
METAR EGNT 252050Z 31013KT 4500 -SHSN SCT004 BKN009CB M01/M01 Q1009
METAR EGNT 252120Z 31010KT 7000 FEW004 SCT010CB M01/M01 Q1009
METAR EGNT 252150Z 31006KT 9999 SCT025 M01/M01 Q1009
METAR EGNT 252220Z 30006KT 9999 SCT025 M00/M00 Q1009
METAR EGNT 252250Z 31006KT 9999 FEW020 M00/M00 Q1009
METAR EGNT 252320Z 34009KT 6000 SHSN FEW010 SCT018 M00/M00 Q1010
METAR EGNT 252350Z 31007KT 4000 -SHSN FEW010 SCT018 00/00 Q1010
METAR EGNT 260020Z 31006KT 4000 -SHSN FEW010 SCT018 00/00 Q1009
METAR EGNT 260050Z 30005KT 8000 FEW010 SCT018 M01/M01 Q1009

... which, on the face of it, isn't that bad ... wind is light, less than 10 knots, light snow showers at 8:50 pm, temperature just on freezing ... not much to report at all.

I can understand the CAA not wanting to report braking actions in slush, as slush holds the water on the runway and the aircraft then aquaplanes on that trapped water. For this reason a car might find good braking, and a touching down aircraft almost no braking at all. One aircraft, with good tread and higher pressure tyres may not have a problem, and the next, with poor tread and lower tyre pressure may struggle to stop.

As the UK is only "just" in the snow zone, it gets more slush than dry snow (as you find more often in Europe) so assessing braking action is more difficult. As I understand it, the current policy is to close the runway for clearing, if the contaminant exceeds 3mm water equivalent depth - so if it's open it should be "usable" - if with caution.

[A4]

If you haven't already..........

Pilot hailed after emergency landing at Newcastle Airport - Chronicle News - News - ChronicleLive (http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/north-east-news/evening-chronicle-news/2010/11/26/pilot-hailed-after-emergency-landing-at-newcastle-airport-72703-27721271/)

I'm speechless.

A4 :ugh:

[Dave Clarke Fife]

ATC not prepared to give a braking action is threading on thin ice to say the least, Expecting the flight crew to make an assessment (from the flightdeck???)...This is just not acceptable,

The CAA will have to act now. High Low


This is the CAA's perspective................................................. .............


Applicability: All Aeroplane Operators
WINTER OPERATIONS 2010/2011: PROMULGATION OF RUNWAY SURFACE CONTAMINATION
INFORMATION TO CREWS
1 Introduction
1.1 The adverse weather experienced in the UK during the winter of 2009/2010 caused numerous difficulties for UK airports and their users. A common complaint from airline operators and aircrew was the lack of timely, accurate and complete information about the state of the runways during periods of adverse weather capable of leading to the contamination of the runway surface. As a result, a series of joint CAA/industry meetings were held and consensus was reached on the reporting of surface conditions.
1.2 Additionally, a new runway condition assessment and reporting matrix has been developed and will be tested during a trial. This matrix is intended to help operators make better decisions about take-off and landing performance.
1.3 The purpose of this FODCOM is to alert aeroplane operators to the guidance available for winter operations, to remind them of the need to brief crews on winter operations and to give notice of the forthcoming trial of a new system for reporting runway conditions. A limited number of aerodromes will participate in this trial and details will be issued shortly.
2 Aerodrome Winter Operations
2.1 It is the responsibility of the aerodrome operator to ensure that when the aerodrome is available for use the movement area remains safe for the operation of aircraft at all times. Additionally, CAP 168, Licensing of Aerodromes, Chapter 10, Aeronautical Information, requires ‘that all information relating to the aerodrome and its facilities, which is significant for the conduct of flights to and from the aerodrome, is available to users of the aerodrome.’
2.2 During snow conditions, UK aerodromes have for many years operated a ‘back to blacktop’ policy. Although this is a goal supported by the CAA, there may be operational circumstances where it is preferable to keep the runway open despite a light covering of snow. Aerodrome operations staff will make tactical decisions at the time concerning continuing operations during adverse weather, including closure for snow clearing.
2.3 Feedback from operators has shown that information on the type, depth and extent of contamination of the runway (and/or taxiways and aprons) is often incomplete or out of date. Consequently, and especially during adverse weather, any significant change in the runway state should be made available to crews through the following means:
a) Automatic Terminal Information Service;
b) SNOWTAM (Form CA1272);
c) Runway State Groups appended to METAR; and
d) Plain language broadcast by Air Traffic Control.
2.4 It is the CAA’s policy that direct readings from Continuous Friction Measuring Equipment (CFME) should not be passed to crews, as there is no direct correlation between CFME readings and aircraft braking performance. However, UK aerodromes will now provide the following:
• the type of contaminant;
FLIGHT OPERATIONS COMMUNICATION - 27/2010
2
• its depth; and
• the percentage coverage at the touchdown, mid-point and stop end of the runway in use.
2.5 See also Notice to Aerodrome Licence Holders 2010/09.
3 Recommendations
3.1 Operators should ensure that crews are fully briefed on the above developments and all aspects of winter operations. Guidance can be found in many publications, some of which are on the CAA’s website at Winter Operations | Flight Operations | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/winteroperations).
3.2 Once detail regarding the forthcoming trial of a new system for reporting runway conditions is published, operators should ensure that crews are aware of the methods that will be used to promulgate runway contamination information at the trial aerodromes, and how this information is applied to take-off and landing performance data.
4 Queries
4.1 Any queries as a result of this Flight Operations Communication should be addressed to the operator’s Flight Operations Inspector (FOI), or for those who do not have an assigned FOI to the Head of Flight Operations Policy at the following e-mail address: [email protected].
11 October 2010
Recipients of new Flight Operations Communications are asked to ensure that these are copied to their 'in house' or contracted maintenance organisation, to relevant outside contractors, and to all members of their staff who could have an interest in the information or who need to take appropriate action in response to this Communication. Flight Operations Communications can be accessed directly via the website List of Flight Operations Division Communications (FODCOMs) for Aeroplane and Helicopter AOC holders. | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/fodcoms).
New Flight Operations Communications are now also notified by RSS newsfeeds. See

[MATELO]

Fm the Chronicle....
the captain stepped out of his cockpit and asked: "Does anybody want to kiss the tarmac?"

What are we not being told......

[WHBM]

Welcome to the world of Litigation.

If the airport gives a reported braking action as medium and an aircraft skids off the runway, it is the Airports fault. Wonder why we get limited information????

If that information is not given, it has to be the Pilot's fault for the subsequent excursion as they failed to make an accurate assessment of the conditions.
Whichever legal adviser (I can't believe it was actually a lawyer) came up with this concept hasn't a clue. It would be torn to shreds by a proper lawyer in court in two minutes.

[boeing738driver]

A Thomson Boeing 737-800, registration G-FDZR performing flight BY-1445 from Lanzarote,CI (Spain) to Newcastle,EN (UK) with 189 passengers, overran runway 07 while landing at Newcastle at 20:52L (20:52Z). The airplane came to a stop on the paved surface of the runway end safety area.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

It's already here:

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/435025-runway-excursion-ncl.html

and here:

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/434965-plane-off-runway-ncl.html

Seek and ye shall find.....