Expressions of Interest for urinals to be installed in 737 cockpits

[Centaurus]

Subject: Report: Air India Express B738 over Arabian Sea on May 26th 2010, inadvertent nose dive



By Simon Hradecky, created Wednesday, Nov 24th 2010 13:38Z, last updated Wednesday, Nov 24th 2010 13:38Z

An Air India Express Boeing 737-800, registration VT-AXJ performing flight IX-212 from Dubai (United Arab Emirates) to Pune (India) with 113 passengers, was enroute at FL370 at Mach 0.76 between waypoints PARAR and DOGET with autopilot A in CMD mode and autothrottle engaged. The captain decided to take a short break to visit the washroom and left the cockpit, however noticed the washroom was occupied and wanted to return to the cockpit, when he noticed the airplane was pitching down. He attempted to enter the cockpit, the cockpit door however did not open. He used the emergency access code to open the door and re-entered the cockpit about 40 seconds after he had left the cockpit. He observed the airplane's attitude was 26 degrees nose down and 5 degrees left bank, the speed in the red band, the mach overspeed clackers sounding. He disengaged the autopilot, arrested the descent, switched the engines to continous relight and resumed level flight before climbing back to FL370 and joining the assigned track again. The captain then engaged LNAV and VNAV modes and engaged the autopilot. The airplane continued to Pune for a safe landing, no injuries and no damage occurred.

India's Directorate General of Civil Aviation DGCA released their final report concluding the probable cause of the serious incident was:

The incident occurred due to inadvertent handling of the control column in fully automated mode by the co-pilot which got compounded as he was not trained to recover the aircraft in automated mode.

Subsequent recovery actions by the PIC without coordination with co-pilot was the contributory factor.

The DGCA reported, that the first officer had been adjusting his seat forward shortly after the captain had left the cockpit. The flight data recorder showed a control force of about 20lbs nose down from the first officer's control column at that time prompting the autopilot to change mode from CMD to control wheel steering pitch and 5 second later also to control wheel steering roll modes indicative that the first officer also gave roll inputs on his control column. 13 seconds after the control input the altitude chime sounded indicating the airplane had significantly departed its assigned altitude. The autopilot changed mode to altitude acquire attempting to climb back to FL370.

The chime however caused panic with the first officer and he pushed the control column forward with a force of about 50lbs. 15 seconds later he attempted to pull the control column, however the airplane continued to descend, so he pushed the control column forward again and the airplane continued to pitch down.

About 40 seconds after the captain had left the cockpit he returned to the cockpit.

Data off the flight data recorder indicated, that the captain entered the cockpit when the airplane had lost 2000 feet (FL350). He did not take control according to take over procedure, but applied force onto the control column which resulted in opposite forces from the first officer and the captain, during which the airplane lost further 5000 feet. The captain did not gradually increase control forces but yanked a 125lbs control force pull input within 2 seconds which levelled the aircraft, that subsequently started to climb and joined the assigned track again, however without applying RVSM contingency procedures after the airplane had departed its assigned FL370 and was now at FL300 about 50 seconds later.

During the upset the airplane experienced vertical accelerations between -0.2G and +2.1G. All passengers were seated at the time of the upset and enjoying their dinner. No injuries occurred therefore. The airplane reached a maximum speed of 0.888 Mach above Mmo.

The DGCA said regarding survival aspects: "The continuation of rapid descent would have led to Catastrophic structural failure of aircraft in air. The yanking of control column by PIC could have also resulted in loss of pitch control surfaces."

The DGCA said in their findings, that the first officer probably had no clue how to tackle this kind of emergency. He had not put on his seat harness. The jet upset exercise is carried out in simulator checks only in manual mode and is not done with autopilot engaged. The first officer was not involved in any prior incident.

In their safety recommendations the DGCA said, appropriate action should be taken against both crew members, and the pilot training curriculum should be reviewed.

[SIUYA]

WOW!

The DGCA said in their findings, that the first officer probably had no clue how to tackle this kind of emergency. He had not put on his seat harness. The jet upset exercise is carried out in simulator checks only in manual mode and is not done with autopilot engaged. The first officer was not involved in any prior incident.

In their safety recommendations the DGCA said, appropriate action should be taken against both crew members, and the pilot training curriculum should be reviewed.

FARK. :ooh:

IMHO, appropriate acion ought to ALSO be taken against the relevant personnel in the Indian DGCA who approved the "so-called" pilot training curriculum in the first place! Like line the bastards up against a wall and shoot them! And RFN (Right fcuking now), before they expose anyone else to such EXTREME and totally unnescessary risk. :mad: :mad:

For chrissakes, where's aviation headed these days?? :ugh: :ugh:

I hope like Christ that aviation training in Australia NEVER EVER EVER EVER plumbs the depth of the total and absolute incompetence displayed by both Air India Express and the Indian DGCA in this matter.

Bloody IDIOTS! :mad:

Fortunately my faith in Australian aviation remains intact from the perspective of the totally outstanding job that was performed by the crew of the recent QF A380 'event'.

Christ only knows what would have happened if the same thing had happened to an Air India Express aircraft! Almost certainly a bloody great big smoking hole in the ground I reckon. :eek:

[dodgybrothers]

hey lets put those pilots in Australian aeroplanes. Onya REG.

[rmcdonal]

I don't understand. This doesn't make any sense. Why did the FO not just simply raise the nose and put the autopilot back on? This is not ATPL stuff this is not even PPL stuff. A student just after ops and effects can do this.

[SIUYA]

dodgybrothers...

Well if it happens then I'm never ever ever ever ever ever going to travel by air, ever ever ever ever ever ever again! :eek:

My 'crossed-off' list of air travel providers now includes Air India Express! :*

The pilots of that flight would be far better suited for alternative employment I think! :*

[Capn Bloggs]

without applying RVSM contingency procedures
Good to see the bureaucrats pinging them for that. As if that was the first thing on the captain's mind at the time! :ugh:

I sympathise with the captain re-entering the cockpit. If the thing was diving towards the ocean I'd be inclined to lean over, pull the power off a bit (ATS off of course!) roll wings level and pull the stick back "firmly but not hard". Hardly the time to get back in seat, put on seat belt, announce in good CRM voice "My controls, Bloggs, you've had your turn" and then pull out of the dive.

As for the FO, well, he's probably just a product of the system. More of them coming, me thinks. If you don't train them properly, that's what you get. The writing is on the wall. :=

What's this Control Wheel Steering anyway? :confused: Is the AP in or ain't it?

[JAYTO]

maybe it has something to do with this...............


http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/434551-india-fraud-pilots-busted.html


Any one up for a flight in India?????

[The Green Goblin]

A good example of why we need experienced Pilots in the flight deck.

I wonder the origins of both the Captain and the FO.

[Tee Emm]

I wonder which operators or training providers are passing out these Indian cadet students with a type rating. Many go to USA for type ratings. With full use automatics taught from the first session, it is no wonder these incidents and similar accidents involving poor basic flying skills will continue to dominate the future aviation scene - particularly in India, Middle East and SE Asia.

Manufacturers and airlines realise that low hour pilot hiring is standard procedure in countries with little or no general aviation. That will never change. But surely by now, the penny should have dropped that newly graduated cadets going directly into the second in command seat of highly automated types, must first be taught basic jet handling in the simulator - regardless of the type of aircraft they are training on. Australia is not doing that today.

It seems crazy to teach automatics as first priority when there is deadly evidence of these pilots lacking basic flying ability. With apologies to Sir Humphrey Appleby of "Yes Minister" (the young won't know what I'm talking about!) - it is indeed a courageous decision by any captain that leaves these fellows alone up front even for a few minutes.

[tail wheel]

Thread back open. :ok:

[flyboy_nz]

I have travelled in India many times on their domestic carriers and having friends who actually fly as FOs on some of these carriers, I thought I would put my two cents in.

The civil aviation training standards in India are poor compared to Australian standards. I had a mate who had finished his CPL in NZ, was doing his check ride in India for the process of conversion. He was told off for carrying out a steep turn in a C-152. "Aircraft are not to exceed 30 deg. AoB at any time", he was told. Stall recovery is always initiated at the onset of the stall warning. Engine Failure after Take-off, the students get told to aim for the end of the field and hope for the best. First solo is conducted with Instructor still on board. Navigation exercises only go from point A to point B. Instrument flying tests usually require the student to Take-off, demonstrate a holding pattern and land. Like most other flight tests, they all begin with a bribe paid to the Instructor & ATO. The bribe can be in the form of money, cellphones or laptops. There are a couple of schools which say that they can provide training on par with western standards in India itself, but because of the corruption, this is never the case.

The theory is on par with JAA. They actually use JAA books to study for the exams, and the theory exams are based on them. It is the practical side which is lacking far behind.

Then, you have students who train overseas. Australia is a favourite destination, as we have good standards.

But, to get a job in India, it's not what you know, it's who you know. Even before the interviews are conducted, the spots are already taken. The interviews are just a show for the DGCA and the rest of the applicants. There was a case of girl who was about to finish her CPL in India, and got the job offer from Kingfisher. A family friend of mine, who was helping with CPL theory at that school, asked her how she got the job. Her reply was that Kingfisher always pick the gifted ones! Upon further investigation, my friend found out that her father was the Airworthiness officer for DGCA.

Let me not get started on the DGCA. There are plenty of threads on that topic in the South East section.

Now, there are a few positives in this whole mess called Indian Aviation. During line training, you are required to pass exams on the 737 for example. You can get two chances to pass this exam, or you are out. It is the same for the A320, if you fail the type-rating exam, you are out. During the aviation boom (04-06), guys with just a CPL, without MECIR, got jobs in the airlines flying B737. But during type-rating, these guys were asked to get their MECIR and then return for training. My mate, who had done his entire MECIR training in NZ, but did not have enough time to sit his flight test, got his MECIR check ride done on the 737 during his type-rating.

The Indian air force pilots are highly trained. The RAAF has regular exchange programs for officers with the IAF and vice versa. I have a family friend who was a Mig-29 instructor in the IAF. He joined Air India as a B737 FO and is about to become a Captain. Got another mate, who is working as an FO for Jet airways, who loves to hand fly the 737 in the cruise (just for a few mins). He misses his C-172 flying days!

So, the problem is not just the DGCA or the Airlines not setting good training standards, but the corruption which causes the leaks and the not so good get through. But who is to blame here, if you need anything to be done in India, you have to pay a bribe. If you refuse to pay, your work gets held up. If you decide to complain, your work gets passed on to someone else, who then causes delays on purpose for dobbing his mate.

[PT6]

Having worked with a number of airlines in India recently I find this quite disturbing. I have not had any dealings with this operator, but have found standards higher than reported on this thread with other Indian operators. Given that India only trains 40 local pilots per year within India the others are trained it seems in Australia, USA, Canada and NZ from my observations.

There is still room for much improvement in standards it seems. Corruption is always such a hindrance.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Re ' First solo is conducted with Instructor still on board.'.......

HA HA HA HO HO HO......AHHHAA AHHAA AHHAA ......
:ugh::ugh::cool::cool:......

[SIZE="2"]You're kidding.....right..??/SIZE]:confused::confused:

[Peter Fanelli]

I don't know about in a cockpit, but I still think having them at a gas station next to the pump is a good idea. You could refuel and defuel at the same time.

[PLovett]

Re ' First solo is conducted with Instructor still on board.'.......

Hey Ex FSO GRIFFO, what makes you think this could only happen in India?


but I have also heard rumors of a certain school there having instructors accompanying students on "solo" navs.

That comes from a thread about some goings on at an Australian aerodrome. :uhoh:

[Iwasoneonce]

Urinals in the cockpit??

Well that will be the next directive from the DGCA. This will be their quick fix/patch to avoid what happened on that flight from Dubai to Pune (India)

Don't believe me? Well, their reaction to the Mangalore tragedy is 4 medicals per year. 1 or 2 normal medicals for your license which is "validated" by the DGCA and the military, space cadet/astronaut/fighter pilot, medical twice per year, that the DGCA now insists all expatiate pilots pass. :ugh::ugh:

I kid you not.

[TowerDog]

First solo is conducted with Instructor still on board.

Please say it ain't so..:sad:

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Urinals?
Maybe this FO need a commode installed after this incident.

Gotta love the mentality of money=automatic license for many of the O/S students.
Can't tell you how to conduct a Sector 3 entry after supposedly 20 hours of IF training:rolleyes:
Feeling sick because of Ramadan, yet you wait 15 minutes while they are having a coke at the vending machine with their mates:*
Taxi across a drainage ditch after returning from a solo, "Oh sorry captain, I taxiied through a muddy puddle", with mud thrown all over the a/c and accompanying slashes across the nosewheel gouge in the ground.:ugh::ugh::ugh:
The perception of being a pilot is they get to be the guy who sits in the terminal sipping coffee and chatting up hosties.:rolleyes:

[Rhino1]

I wonder, just wonder, if I might have crossed paths with some of those Air India types. Some of them were nice kids. I was fueling at an FBO, and some of the Indian students from a local school would often be at the airport. I've heard of late, (and know some of the instructors there who tried hard to help them be good pilots) that they have found cheaper places to fly, like the Philippines, and elsewhere - and that the level of training is even lower than I think it already was... It was quite challenging working around them as a CFI in this airspace...

R

[teresa green]

My daughter, a QF S/O, is already freaking out about pat downs, a urinal next to her on the flight deck would be the final straw. One, its no good to her, two, she could not begin to imagine where she would look. Three, she would go to work armed with a bottle of pine o clean. Too many female pilots these days lads, pehaps back to the old style pi$s jug. About that Indian F/O,your winding us up arn't you, seriously.:confused:

[Brian Abraham]

Centaurus, remember your military days and the p*ss tube. The gals use them as well these days. Has the advantage of not needing to unstrap or leave your seat. Incident would not have occurred if these facilities has been in place. teresas daughter may have objections though ;) Or perhaps not, as the following from elsewhere on the net,

Women had an attachment to use in the Prowler with the p*ss tube. Most of the gals in my squadron didn't like using it but they had to in certain circumstances. The funniest was when our gals was flying in the front our XO and she had to go. He was really old fashioned and when she mentioned that she had to go you could hear him cringe. They rigged up a 'screen' with a chart so he wouldn't inadvertently see anything. She really teased him about it the whole time and periodically afterwards at the O Club.

[PLovett]

Incident would not have occurred if these facilities has been in place.

Actually Brian, the incident would not have occurred had the FO been properly trained and/or decided not to interfere with something that he obviously knew absolutely nothing about. :sad: :ugh: :mad:

[Centaurus]

Centaurus, remember your military days and the p*ss tube.

Well I do. In the old days we had a Mustang A68-113 (may she rest in peace after spearing into a hill in the Dandenongs) at Townsville. It was used to tow a banner to give Lincoln gunners practice at tearing it to shreds.

During the annual Battle of Britain Air Display, the Mustang was used in mock combat between a Lincoln and the Mustang. After the Mustang landed, spectators were shown through the Lincoln and the Mustang. One rather attractive young nubile took her seat in the Mustang and had the workings explained to her by the enthusiastic Mustang pilot (one Centaurus)

The Mustang had a urinal called a "Pissaphone" which was a bell-shape tube that could be dragged out from under the seat (I think) and used for the express purpose of just that.

The nubile who was probably a blonde, saw this contraption and asked what it was for. A moment's silence as Centaurus thought fast then he said it is an intercom system -you talk into it. Whereupon the young woman reached down and pulled the Pissaphone out of its holder and pressing her luscious lips tight into the opening and said "HELLO - ANYONE THERE"

Jeez - I was embarrassed..

[rmcdonal]

It has found its way to the Australian news.
Air India Express | Panicky pilot caused passenger jet plunge (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/panicky-pilot-caused-passenger-jet-plunge-20101130-18edn.html)
I still have no idea how this is classed as an emergency.

[Cutter796]

OMG, The race to the bottom is over, we are there!

Heard J* are trying to poach Air Indias training manager for deployment on their cadetship course, they are liking the short cuts taken to get those new guys into the seat ASAP......:ugh:

[Capn Bloggs]

I still have no idea how this is classed as an emergency.
If an out-of-control jet at 30k wasn't an emergency, I'd like to know what would be! :eek:

[rmcdonal]

If an out-of-control jet at 30k wasn't an emergency, I'd like to know what would be!
Sorry, let me re-phrase that.
How does the autopilot disconnecting become and emergency with a qualified pilot sitting at the controls.

[PLovett]

with a qualified pilot sitting at the controls

That is a highly questionable assumption.

[Capn Bloggs]

How does the autopilot disconnecting become and emergency with a qualified pilot sitting at the controls.
Good question! :E

[Jabiman]

From the story:
The 25-year-old Indian co-pilot told the inquiry he had "got in a panic situation couldn't control the aircraft, neither open the cockpit door and answer the cabin call."

[Lodown]

I chuckle at the thought of what several old bastards I flew with would have done in the same situation. I feel confident in saying that the FO would have had at the very least, a broken jaw and the struggle for control would have been over much sooner.

[Tee Emm]

I still have no idea how this is classed as an emergency.

Surely you jest. A frightened incompetent first officer all alone up front and the captain "indisposed" aft of the locked cockpit door and the aircraft in a 25 degree nose down dive reaching Mach 0.88 and the F/O not having a clue how to recover with 5000 feet of altitude lost by the time the captain unlocked the cockpit door and tried to recover the dive while standing up. (from the DGCA official incident report) And you reckon that's not an emergency?

[C441]

Lucky the captain only went for a slash and was not properly incapacitated.

[rob_ginger]

Slightly off-topic, but one of my mining friends worked in Africa a loooooooooooong time ago, and tells the tale of waiting on board an aircraft prior to takeoff. Finally the pilot appears, and says that the co-pilot is not turning up and he's going to fly the leg alone, anyone who's not happy can get off and wait. No-one gets off, and the flight is uneventful until cruise, when the pilot ties the cockpit door back with elastic, and goes to the loo. A little bit of turbulence, and the cockpit door swings shut - and locked. Out comes the fire axe, and the pilot hacks his way back into the cockpit, watched by the slightly nervous passengers.

Back on-topic - I have no difficulty believing that the AIE FO was so incompetent that he couldn't regain control. There are other threads here about pilots faking their documentation, and management overturning failed checks, and they all ring true. When working in Tokyo a while ago I became friends with a British consular official who had previously worked in India. He said that he saw a huge volume of faked documents from Indians seeking visas. To prove the problem to his sceptical superiors he obtained a fully certified death certificate - for himself, of course. So I'll never fly on an Indian airline. Just one crash can ruin your whole day.

[Cougar]

Nz Flyboy;
"The Indian air force pilots are highly trained. The RAAF has regular exchange programs for officers with the IAF and vice versa."

I think your info is a little out of date and massively incorrect. Not sure where you get this idea from. The Indians have lost 60 mil aircraft in 3 years with a number of fatalities (yes, not necessarily due to pilot error but cannot be ruled out for some of them).

And exchanges with the IAF?? Ummmmm, no.

[mustafagander]

Come on Rob,

A couple of urban myths here.

I did a bit of check and training on the "dark contintent" some years ago and the Affs were so keen to follow "the rules"!! They were actually tiresome in their pursuit of "the rules" hoping, I suppose, that by following all the rules they would be safe pilots. Totally wrong!!!

I can, however, easily believe that this F/O (for want of a better name for him/her) could be so absolutely incompetent. I spent some time in the area after wearing out my welcome in parts of Africa. Seen quite a few like that and scrubbed a couple, hence my persona non grata status in the sub continent. OTOH, I can sleep nights easily with a clear conscience.

[Pinky the pilot]

I spent some time in the area after wearing out my welcome in parts of Africa. Seen quite a few like that and scrubbed a couple, hence my persona non grata status in the sub continent. OTOH, I can sleep nights easily with a clear conscience.

There should be a few interesting stories there mustafagander. Care to share a few of them with us?:ok:

[positivegee]

I think the idea of a hygenic and private toilet in the cockpit is a great idea.

Since 911 I have found leaving the cockpit for a pee a much bigger deal. With the bullet proof door, dead lock etc, if the other pilot decided that they wanted to commit suicide or an act of terrorism, they could easily lock you out of the cockpit. I have the utmost faith in my fellow pilot but I like to cover for unexpected situations (in my mind at least) and being deadlocked outside is one that I can't...so now I don't go unless I am on terra firma.

The cost of a hygenic, private toilet in the front is probably too much, but if it isn't, can we please have a microwave and fridge as well?

[Tee Emm]

if the other pilot decided that they wanted to commit suicide or an act of terrorism, they could easily lock you out of the cockpit. B737 Silk Air Flight MIA 185 comes to mind...poor bastards.

[MyNameIsIs]

With the bullet proof door, dead lock etc, if the other pilot decided that they wanted to commit suicide or an act of terrorism, they could easily lock you out of the cockpit. I have the utmost faith in my fellow pilot but I like to cover for unexpected situations (in my mind at least) and being deadlocked outside is one that I can't...


Isn't that one of the reasons why another member of the aircraft's crew, such as cabin crew, sit in the cockpit when one of the flight crew leaves?
Another reason just in case the remaining pilot becomes incapacitated...

[teresa green]

Problem there is, they would just whack em with the crash axe, then lock to flight deck door. The world has gone mad, has it not. Imagine if you got a F/O who, well, seemed a little different, your imagination would go wild, you would stop taking in fluids, to postpone the inevitable, you would be as jumpy as, and the poor bloke has simply got a headache. God I am glad I have stopped flying. The worst worry we ever had, was to get the whinger, or someone who bored the pants off you. You poor buggers..........

[flyboy_nz]

And exchanges with the IAF?? Ummmmm, no.

Defence Newspapers | Air Force (http://digital.realviewtechnologies.com/default.aspx?iid=34741&startpage=page0000004)

Indian Air Force Gallantry & Service Awards Register [www.bharat-rakshak.com] (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Database/Awards/awards.php?cur=1000&qyear=all&qaward=VM&qunit=all) - scroll down to Wg Cdr Surat Singh, graduate of Australian Command and Staff course.

Officer exchange program, Yes, Hornet squadron visiting India, not yet but Su-30 squadron visiting Aus on military exercises, pretty soon!

With all do respect, Cougar, you might be ex-RAAF, but because I am a bug-smasher, I hope you don't think I am making it up and hence the reason I have provided those links.

[Cougar]

That's fine flyboy, an exchange in mil parlance means a 2-3 year tour of duty flying in another countries air force in a flying unit with a reciprocal arrangement for the other countries pilot. We do not have exchanges with India.

You refer to visits, which are quite different. The headline in RAAF news of "cultural exchange" was an editors misnomer - it was really a visit.

[flyboy_nz]

That's fine flyboy, an exchange in mil parlance means a 2-3 year tour of duty flying in another countries air force in a flying unit with a reciprocal arrangement for the other countries pilot. We do not have exchanges with India.

You refer to visits, which are quite different. The headline in RAAF news of "cultural exchange" was an editors misnomer - it was really a visit.

I do apologize for using the wrong word. Thank you, I never knew that, guess I learnt something new today :ok:. Anyway, back to the topic.

[B772]

The LH A380's are fitted with a military style urinal in the toilets. Cockpit next ???