Joyce,Dixon,Rolls Royce and the A380

[DEFCON4]

A small piece in the Fin Review on Monday provided some insight as to why the Rolls Royce Center of Excellence at the QF Mascot jetbase was closed down.
Dixon had wanted to keep the expertise inhouse and is said to have spent $20 mill to maintain facility.
The article went on to say that one of Joyce's first acts when appointed CEO was to close it down.Apparently he felt that its size and the cost of maintaining it made it unviable.
Whoops!
The A380 was purchased specifically for the the US/AUS sectors.New guidelines about to be released will restrict the thrust of the Trent 900 engines to 70,000 pounds of thrust.Not the 72,000 pounds Qantas currently uses.Such a restriction would render the aircraft unprofitable and there unviable for US services.Weight restrictions would apply at reduced thrust and therefore reduce pax loads.
Joyce is hoping that these measures will be temporary.If not the size of compensation Qantas will seek from RR will increase exponentially.
More knowlegeable bods than me may take exception to some(if not all) of this of this reported information
I'm guessing that the Alliance engines and the Rollers are not interchangeable
So does Qantas cancel its remaining orders for the A380 or does it intervene and require Alliance Engines to be fitted to the remaining aircraft on order.
Are the Alliance engines able to operate at 72000lbs thrust?
What was reason again QF didnt purchase 777s.
Why did it choose Rollers and not Alliance engines ?
Look like the bean counters wielded too much authority in the decision making

[mrdeux]

You don't need 72,000 lbs to go from LAX 25L at max weight. Only 24L.

[Bad Hat Harry]

Why if its not required do QF use 72000lbs out of LAX.
Isnt this thrust used mainly for LAX/MEL sectors?
It appears that this is one of the reasons that the engine exploded on a QF aircraft rather than an SQ engine.Consistent use of higher thrust over a longer time frame.Just plane bad luck.

[Going Boeing]

Defcon, have you an axe to grind with RR?

I'm guessing that the Alliance engines and the Rollers are not interchangeable
I understand that Airbus changed the engines on MSN4 from RR to EA so it seems feasible but probably very expensive.

Why did it choose Rollers and not Alliance engines ?
The RR engine was an "evolution" from the Trent series and thus was considered to be a lower risk option that the Engine Alliance option which was an entirely new engine.

So does Qantas cancel its remaining orders for the A380 or does it intervene and require Alliance Engines to be fitted to the remaining aircraft on order.
A lot of people at Qantas would love to see the last eight A380's cancelled and replace them with B747-8's or B777-300ER's - it's not going to happen though. Substituting Alliance engines may be feasible but if "long lead time" items are involved, it would significantly add to the cost. Also there may be contractual issues with RR which could have penalties. Also, wouldn't the decision to change engine types look poor if the Alliance engine subsequently has problems?

Are the Alliance engines able to operate at 72000lbs thrust?
Both engines are designed to operate at much higher thrust ratings when (& if) Airbus stretch the A380 into a properly proportioned aircraft (ie around 85,000lbs thrust). I believe the restriction of 70,000lbs on the RR will be short term until a permanent mod has been installed on all engines.

I don't believe that the decision makers were biased as to RR when selecting that type to power the A380. In Nov 2000, Qantas placed a large aircraft order for 12 A380's, 13 A330's (original order was for 7 -200's and 6 -300's but was later changed to 4 & 10) and 6 B747-400ER's. Subsequently, they announced that the A380's would be powered by RR but the A330's and B747-400ER's would be powered by GE engines. It was simply a selection of what was thought to be the best available engine to suit the flying that each aircraft type was planned to do.

What was reason again QF didnt purchase 777s.
Don't get me started on that lack of foresight.

[noip]

Mr D

Might want to re-do those performance calculations.



N

[neville_nobody]

It appears that this is one of the reasons that the engine exploded on a QF aircraft rather than an SQ engine.Consistent use of higher thrust over a longer time frame.Just plane bad luck.

It's more of a design issue than bad luck. If the engine is rated at a certain thrust level you should be able to operate the aircraft at that thrust within the time parameters without blowing up the engine. Doing a rated takeoff every day shouldn't damage an engine especially one that is lucky to do one takeoff a day. It's not like they're doing 8 rated takeoffs day in day out.

The old cliche never buy the A model of anything comes to mind

[alangirvan]

There might be contractural issues if Qantas decided to change engine supplier, but the experience of the last few weeks suggests that Qantas would probably have some fairly good options for getting out their contract with RR if they wanted.

Probably the first 20 A380s will all be RR - but the second generation A380s - they may be a decision made in the next 5 years. You would think, with the installed engine, this would be RR's contract to lose. Well. Qantas did go GE for the 747-400ERs after operating 747s with RRs for over 20 years. (Was it something about loss of fuel efficiency over a number of years). Note that AirNZ also moved from 747s with RRs to GEs. I think South African might be anothr carrier that went from RR to GE, but I do not know if that was performance.

[Oliver Klozof]

Probably the first 20 A380s will all be RR - but the second generation A380s - they may be a decision made in the next 5 years. You would think, with the installed engine, this would be RR's contract to lose. Well. Qantas did go GE for the 747-400ERs after operating 747s with RRs for over 20 years. (Was it something about loss of fuel efficiency over a number of years). Note that AirNZ also moved from 747s with RRs to GEs. I think South African might be anothr carrier that went from RR to GE, but I do not know if that was performance.

I believe the 744ER was only available with GE engines. The three second-hand 744s that QF purchased from Asiana & Malaysian also had/have GE engines as that's what the previous owners ordered them with.

[DUXNUTZ]

Anyone got a link to the Financial Review article referenced at top of page???

[VH-Cheer Up]

Anyone got a link to the Financial Review article referenced at top of page???

Duxnutz, the AFR is probably the least online-accessible, most expensive newspaper in the world. Web only subscription is $109 per month. If you had a link you would only be able to access the content with a subscription. Someone with a subscription could cut and paste - but then that would be a breach of copyright, and so on.

Perhaps a journal with a more enlightened web policy might republish an edited version.

Let's hope.

[Avid Aviator]

O.K.,
Not so, ER was for Qantas and could have been any engine type they wanted. RR were very taken aback when their assumption they'd be supplying the new engines was proven wrong. As suggested, RB211s on the B744 have cost a lot of extra fuel over the years. First five years (I think) were covered under warranty. This was one area the three ugly sisters actually DID prove a success for QF!

[Going Boeing]

As suggested, RB211s on the B744 have cost a lot of extra fuel over the years.
Avid, my info is that is BS. The RR engine has much slower degradation of the "hot section" than the GE (have a look at the tail number correction figures in the Tech log (incl the GE B767's)) and therefore remains efficient for longer. It also remains on the wing longer before overhaul thus achieving significantly lower maintenance costs.

The RR engine is optimised for longer sectors which is why the GE engine was preferred on the A330 as the initial plan for them was a large amount of domestic flying. It's also why the RR B767's are not as efficient as GE's on the domestic routes that they are used on - BA mainly used them on medium range sectors.

[The Green Goblin]

The RR engine is optimised for longer sectors which is why the GE engine was preferred on the A330 as the initial plan for them was a large amount of domestic flying. It's also why the RR B767's are not as efficient as GE's on the domestic routes that they are used on - BA mainly used them on medium range sectors.

So what you're saying is Qantas in their infinite wisdom are now using a long haul engine on short haul ops, and a short haul engine on long haul ops :ugh:.

I swear, if Pilots were as incompetent as management, we'd be out the door at the first port of call.

[Oliver Klozof]

The only engines available for the ER are GE CF6-80C2B5F or the P&W 4062. There was/is no Rolls Royce option.

[Short_Circuit]

The only engines available for the ER are GE CF6
due to the extra weight of the RR no doubt.

[one for the road]

Err ....I operate the B744ERF with P&W 4065's

[Ngineer]

At the very least this incident has highlighted that the company has absolutely no commitment or want to continue heavy maint or component overhaul of these new aircraft within our shores, paying lip service to the press to ease the concerns of the travelling public.

Every EBA update we receive ends with the threat of shutting us down if we don't remain competitive.