Sentinel R1- Under the Radar

[TwoTunnels]

How come there is very little information about the withdrawal of the Sentinel R1 'when no longer required to support ops in Afghanistan'?

It doesn't appear in the MoD's Business Plan or most reports on SDSR fallout.

Are they going to replace this new aircraft to continue the capability or is it another (less publicised) cessation of UK military capability?

[gijoe]

'Twas probably part of the great UOR tidal wave and therefore not in any business plan past or present.

It is a fine example of blue suits flying planes that primarily serve the purposes of brown jobs and the resultant in-fighting over who is boss and who should drive between the two leading to the loss of the capability.

Nice one!

:=

[caped crusader]

'Twas probably part of the great UOR tidal wave and therefore not in any business plan past or present.

It is a fine example of blue suits flying planes that primarily serve the purposes of brown jobs and the resultant in-fighting over who is boss and who should drive between the two leading to the loss of the capability.

Nice one!

As far as I am aware, Sentinel and its associated ground stations were not part of any UOR, but a fully funded joint RAF/Army procurement programme.

Unfortunately it suffered from setbacks in the development phase and was late into service. Now that is in service I have no experience of any inter service rivalry over who owns the platform or product. 5 (Army Co-operation) Squadron is a fine example of RAF/Army jointery and seems to be doing a fine job in theatre.

I think you will find that the demise of Sentinel was probably a Treasury driven decision and had nothing to do with the military.

[TwoTunnels]

I suppose we should be thankful that it actually made it into service, unlike the Nimrod MRA4!

I not aware of any reasons why it is going to be binned, not even on financial grounds. Never the less, it is another capability loss as I'm not convinced that a MALE RPAS (Scavenger) can replace this.

If you look at MALE RPAS radar (SAR & GMTI) published capabilities such as Selex Gallileo PicoStar's 20 km max range, it is a LONG way short of Sentinel's.
Maybe a HALE RPAS replacement such as Global Hawk, would have been a more understandable plan. Are we going to sign up for Eurohawk instead?

That's assuming there was/is a plan!!!

[Corrona]

And whilst we're talking about the withdrawal of Sentinel, what about Shadow?

[TwoTunnels]

Shadow has always been an UOR which probably puts it in a different bucket. But you're right, there has been no future plan for either.

Again, was/is there a plan?

At least amongst the serving RAF personnel, it would generate a massive amount of respect for the SLT if they actually put forward their thoughts behind SDSR and stopped treating us all like a bunch of kids. Smoke and Mirrors IS NOT AN OPTION.

[VinRouge]

Wouldnt despec'd sentinel/shadow provide an excellent low hours comms fleet solution?

Sentinel in particular would excel at the aeromed role, has exceptionally long legs and is fuel efficient. It would provide an excellent solution for the Government, seeking a new ministerial transport solution, as it is already bought and paid for.

I am imagining however the costs of converting both back to original spec may be an issue...

[TwoTunnels]

Why would you re-role the Sentinel. It will be (is) bought and paid for in the ISTAR role. It can't be much more expensive in it's current role than it becoming an Aeromed or Comms platform.

Not sure if it fulfils the Combat ISTAR 'flavour if the month' though?

Interesting to see that after USAF were thinking about binning their JSTARS in 2009- they've decided to re-engine, add SYERS III and increase the performance of the radar. Do they know something we don't? (apart from having more money to invest in the military)

[TwoTunnels]

'... potential customers for Sentinel...' airframe not mission kit?????
havn't heard that one, pray tell

[Pontius Navigator]

The lack of fuss compared with MRA4 and Harrier is no doubt down to its newness and low profile. Few of the public will have heard of it and there is no history attached to it.

Like the Nav School Dominies - 40 years service but no real public awareness and no real Service history. I have heard that the Dominie is going but seen nothing else of this. Same deal really.

[VinRouge]

I wonder if there is a civilian market under Wider Markets for SAR imagery once the conflict is over?

[TwoTunnels]

I wonder if the UK military would actually keep the airframes, for whatever mission. Seems a lot of a cop out. Much of the role of Sentinel is not in the public eye, but as it was rushed into Op HERRICK before it's true, complete capability was evaluated, it is deemed to be a bit of a 'one trip pony'- a label which has apparently sealed it's fate.

[XR219]

As far as I am aware, Sentinel and its associated ground stations were not part of any UOR, but a fully funded joint RAF/Army procurement programme.
Indeed, I believe the ASTOR programme started in the early 1990s, and grew out of the earlier, and somewhat less ambitious CASTOR programme which probably dates back to the 70s.

[Wensleydale]

The external shape of the Sentinel is bought and paid for in terms of design, performance and handling qualities. For these bespoke users the clearance of the external payload shapes is quite an investment and modern types (as opposed to the more forgiving and over-engineered older types) are more difficult to modify and clear. In these terms the external shape of the Sentinel is more marketable to the niche customers looking to update, replace or launch new capabilities.



I always thought that the extra bumps in the Sentinel fuselage allowed the Army Officer to fit in his horse when the aircraft deploys: the front hump behind the flight deck fits the head while the canoe allows leg room and a drainage channel for the droppings (for the horse - not the officer).:8

[MarkRAFIAM]

The project had issues from the start.

Ex-RAF staff moving over to join Raytheon and then employing their mates didn't help. This merely put up civilans' backs and that's not to mention their views on how the project should be run based on their previous 'experience'! You see, the in-fighting was not between the RAF and Army, but internal, ex-RAF vs Civilians.

The system has reliabilty issues which is visually obvious by any half brained IT engineer, which was all planned apparently, so that you, I and every other tax paying person can pay for a much needed upgrade to put things right. Although it still won't be 100% compatible with the US systems as the uplinks / downlinks / baud rates, etc. are completely different.

It has potential, but needs new management and to employ people who have gained some commercial experience and not directly from uniform / the institutionalised bullying. Unfortunately, in my opinion, until their house is sorted, the guys on the ground will not be covered as per the original design ideas.

[matkat]

Mark I have to disagree with you there.I was the seniour QA engineer on the air platform and never came across any infighting at all in fact it was pleasure to work on the project.

[MarkRAFIAM]

Senior QA Engineer who cannot spell Senior - enough said!

:ok:

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

;)

Get a life MarkRAFIAM

- Finger trouble on the keyboard is no crime on this site. (Or any other)


the institutionalised bullying.

Please explain.

Aaron

[Tourist]

Let's face it. The Sentinel is vulnerable because the role it was designed for doesn't really exist anymore.
It is kind of ok at what it does at the moment in theatre, but it is a lot of money for a role that the Baggers are in many/most ways superior.

[Just This Once...]

Ah a bagger that can transit large distances at 0.9M, provide wide area GMTI and coherent SAR from large stand-off ranges, whilst sharing data with their US equivalents...

Not that anyone would have a use for such a thing in these very stable times.

:ugh:

[Tourist]

I'm not here to defend the freakshow, but who needs 0.9M when you can do your job from the airfield overhead?
Sentinel's GMTI is extremely flawed as I am sure you know if involved with it. And don't even mention the Bulge on top:rolleyes:

[Climebear]

Tourist

There is more to NATO (and indeed UK) mil ops in Ghanners than the small area of Helmandshire occupied by TFH. Not even the mighty bag can cover all of the areas of interest from Bastion.

[Tourist]

True, but you can get an awful lot of bags (shudder) for the kind of money that Sentinel costs.

[Climebear]

That would be an awfully big logs footprint (just from the Ghanners perspective from the V(AC) Sqn product that my organization used out there).

[XV277]

'... potential customers for Sentinel...' airframe not mission kit?????
havn't heard that one, pray tell

US Battlefield Airborne Communications Node perhaps?

Bombardier Global Express 700-1A10 N901GX Battle Field Airborne Communication Node before and after conversion comparisons Miramar Air Show 2007 and 2008 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/f18e777/3193924593/)

The North Spin - News: Battlefield Airborne Communications Node Testing Continues (http://www.thenorthspin.com/news08/022008tns.html)

Recently seen passing through Mildenhall

FighterControl • Home to the Military Aviation Enthusiast • View topic - Surprise at The Hall (http://www.fightercontrol.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=23691)

[BlackadderIA]

Sentinel's GMTI is extremely flawed as I am sure you know if involved with it. And don't even mention the Bulge on top:rolleyes:


Can't let that one go.

In what way is it 'flawed' - I am very involved with it and it works extremely well, has a significantly larger coverage area than the bag, much better Radar and an on station time of ass numbing proportions.
The Bag wins on the mission kit, which is fantastic thanks to having been designed with embedded operator input and with rapid software changes. However, the Sentinel kit is still fairly good and will be even better after the next software release.

The 'Bulge on top' is not really used anymore, but still works fine.

As for the future, what could we do with a modern, long endurance, high altitude, high speed jet equipped with an extensive comms suite and a state-of-the-art Radar that tracks ships just as well as it does vehicles? Hmm...

[Strucky]

It would appear that Tourist knows as much about ISTAR/ASTOR as he does about AD (see F3 thread)!

Tourist, make the effort old boy to google or look on the MoD Website and gain information before making ill-informed comments about subject matter that is clearly out-of-your depth!

MarkRAFIAM - do you have 'a bit of an axe to grind' regarding Raytheon/ASTOR, do tell!

BlackadderIA - good to see someone making a balanced and informed comment and posing an interesting question for our lords and masters!!

My 'tuppence worth' - just think of the benefits of this type of system for anti-piracy ops, survey ops in and around Japan (civil support), support to New Zealand after their earthquake - not quite an 'old cold-war' relic!!

'Let the sparring commence'!

[Crash alot]

I rarely post, but I sadly built a lot of the what was bough as COTS IT equipment used........

I wont go into details, but archaic dont describe it.

[Unchecked]

Bearing in mind where we are now with Libya and the middle east, isn't Sentinel one of the most relevant capabilities the UK has for many years to come?

Can't get my head around scrapping it. I don't know the finer points of what it does or how good it's kit actually is, but GMTI is surely a good tool for the toolset?

[Squirrel 41]

Unchecked.

Yes, it is very good. Ergo, it is stupid to scrap it.

However, as we've seen lately, this is no reason to assume it won't be scrapped in 2015. :ugh:

Hopefully, common sense will prevail at that point, and 5(AC) with the Sentinel System will be allowed to get on with their very useful job.

S41

[plasticAF]

Unchecked

This morning on the Beeb News site was a photo slideshow of NATO assets in use one of which was the Sentinal. So perhaps?

[Unchecked]

Agreed. I couldn't believe my ears when our Staish announced it's fate back in October, but the fact it's now being employed in 2 theatres surely demonstrates that it is something that is both necessary and useful.