BHX closed due accident

[Captain Caveman]

Acft down at 15 end is the rumour, thick fog rolled in - possible Citation - all rumour though!

[Airbrake]

Just received first hand information of an aircraft incident on or near RWY 15 at Birmingham.

No further info except I believe the airport is now closed.

EGBB 191550Z 01004KT 0250 R15/0275 R33/0325 FG NSC 07/05 Q1011=

[Crosswind Limits]

Hope everyone was ok! :uhoh:

Used to be based at BHX flying Citations - still have former colleagues there..............

[Llademos]

BHX website (http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/arrivals-and-departures.aspx) showing flights diverting - last landing 1531.

[OltonPete]

They are trying to get the Helimed chopper in to attend the incidentbut the RVR is 275 all the way down. I believe that they have just succeeded in finding a gap in the fog and there was a "follow me" vehicle used to get it closer to the site.

BHX had just accepted to diverts prior but the weather dropped quickly.

Pete

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Just reported on BBC news at 16:20 - info sketchy yet.

[Philflies]

'light aircraft' according to Sky News.
Read into that what you will.

[scousepilot]

EGBB 191550Z 01004KT 0250 R15/0275 R33/0325 FG NSC 07/05 Q1011

doesnt look very clever down there

[S78]

Believed to be Citation G-VUEM

[Airbrake]

Latest news believed to be only 2 on board one reported as walking wounded and one taken by the Helimed. No fatalities reported.

Think they were lucky chaps.

[Captain Caveman]

Yep confirmed as above on approach to BHX from BFS.

[Paddywacker]

Just got call:

One fatality and airport now closed until further notice.

[Airbus Girl]

What kind of aircraft was it? Seems strange that a light aircraft would be attempting a landing in Cat III weather. Out of interest, were other airports in the vicinity also fogged out or was a diversion airport available?

[Ductape]

Helimed just lifted off for walsgrave hsp, was initially delayed while 15 checked for debris

[Paddywacker]

This is supposed to the aircraft involved: JetPhotos.Net Photo » G-VUEM (CN: 501-0178) Private Cessna 501 Citation by Martin Robson (http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6121852)

[FunkyMonkey7]

Luton Closed
Stansted will probs close soon

[NigelOnDraft]

AG... When I checked the latest Actuals after hearing of the incident, the most recent was 250m, but the previous was 9999 3000NW IIRC. Someone clever will know how to get historical TAFs... so seems the fog rolled in roughly time of whatever happened?

NoD

[Crosswind Limits]

The registration mentioned above is for a Citation I, which is a Cat 1 plane. There is a lot more of this to come out.

Very sad news! :(

[doubleu-anker]

That is what scares me about fog, as it can knock a lot of places out in a very short time indeed, over a very wide area.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

EMA is fogged out:\

[Happy Wanderer]

Eyewitness on BBC Radio WM just said flames seen from aircraft on approach to R15 and fireball enveloped on landing.

[LYKA]

Egbb 191650z 01003kt 0100 R15/0300 R33/0300 Fg Vv/// 06/05 Q1012=
Egbb 191620z 01003kt 0100 R15/0300 R33/0275 Fg Bkn000 06/05 Q1011=
Egbb 191550z 01004kt 0250 R15/0275 R33/0325 Fg Nsc 07/05 Q1011=
Egbb 191520z 13003kt 9999 3000nw Prfg Few007 08/06 Q1011=
Egbb 191450z 15004kt 9999 Few007 09/07 Q1011=
Egbb 191420z 12004kt 090v160 9999 4500nw Few007 09/07 Q1011=
Egbb 191350z 12004kt 9999 Few007 09/07 Q1011=
Egbb 191320z 11004kt 070v140 9999 Sct007 08/07 Q1011=
Egbb 191250z Vrb03kt 9000 Sct005 08/08 Q1011=

C5376/10 NOTAMN
Q)EGTT/QFALC/IV/NBO/A/000/999/5227N00144W005
A)EGBB
B)1011191640 C)1011192100
E)AIRFIELD CLOSED

[Ductape]

When I drove past the end of 33 at approx 16:10 on way home from work, the fog was a real pea souper, yet sky above M6 was gin clear, so very patchy but very dense, temp in fog is reading 8.0c?

[Kengineer-130]

I live just outside Birmingham, I drove home today from Surrey, the weather was glorious (for winter!) all the way, clear skys and winter sun. About a mile from my house, it was like someone had hit a switch to turn the fog on, so I can see how fast the weather has rolled in.

Very sad news from BHX :(

[crispey]

Shawbury has been at 100m all day.Same here at 550 ASL near NUGRA.

[Airbus Girl]

Someone said STN and LTN were closed? Why? They are both Cat III so unless it is below 75m/ 0 ft they should still be open?

Before the non-IFR pilots/ non-pilots start their own rumours, can I just say that if there is a decrease in the weather below Cat I, the tower would pass the new RVRs to the crew whilst on approach. Every time it changes they are passed. If you are Cat I, doing a Cat I approach and it goes below minimums you go-around. The 1520z weather is Cat 1, with an obvious downward trend, by 1550z it is Cat III on runway 15 and Cat 2 on runway 33.

I am sure the full AAIB report will give us the facts.

[Sagey]

I was wondering the same Airbus Girl, seems that the weather is currently CAT IIIA doable where you need 200,125,75. You need 150m for takeoff. Delays yes but doubt very much they are closed. if the snow turns up next week then you will see closed :rolleyes:

[LTNman]

Luton is open with cat 3 holding points, 450m RVR

[compton3bravo]

Luton Is Not Closed just taken an Arran diversion!!

[Ductape]

BBC news report

If correct, seems witness had ac in sight for some time?? on fire on approach? had it impacted earlier out of sight?

"Eyewitness Dennis Gough, who was playing golf by the runway at the time, said he saw the plane coming in to land.
'Leaning to one side'
"As it was coming to land it was on fire and as as it approached the runway it looked like it was leaning to one side slightly," he said.
"Then, once it hit the runway there were sort of flames alongside the runway then it broke into a big fireball."

[Sagey]

True Topslide you might get lucky and get visual before minimums. Would this aircraft have been CAT III capable?

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

seems that the weather is currently CAT IIIA doable where you need 200,125,75. You need 150m for takeoff.

If you need 150m for take off then you also need 150m for the mid-point RVR for approach if flying Cat3, not 125m as commonly mistaken.

[Crosswind Limits]

No Citation is Cat III.

[jackharr]

TAF EGBB 191059Z 1912/2012 18005KT 0300 FG VV- BECMG 1912/1915 6000 NSW SCT005 BECMG 2000/2003 2500 BR BKN005 PROB30 2003/2010 0600 FG BKN001 BECMG 2010/2012 6000 BKN010

TAF AMD EGBB 191409Z 1914/2012 18005KT 9999 FEW007 PROB40 1920/1924 4000 BR BECMG 2000/2003 2500 BR BKN005 PROB30 2003/2010 0600 FG BKN001 BECMG 2010/2012 6000 BKN010

Jack

[LessThanSte]

Presumably then he was at Hatchford Brook golf course when he spotted the aircraft. Down the far end of that course you can see aircraft from quite a way off. Impacted earlier out of sight though seems unlikely, surely it would not have made it back into the air to continue a relatively normal approach, allbeit one on fire....?

[flap15]

Ok you trolls stop quoting the weather, unless you have somthing to say of factual note that has NOT been said before keep quiet.

If you are only Cat 1 and have an emergency as a Captain you may elect to ignore minima. However you must be prepared to justify your actions to the authorities.

[Tom355uk]

Down the far end of that course you can see aircraft from quite a way off.

Not with 250m visibility you cant.......

You might see a glow in the mist then the aircraft appearing sliding along on fire, but you won't see the threshold from the golf course in such low vis.

[Airbus Girl]

Topslide, yes, we could go into the minutia of LVPs but as I mentioned, I was trying to keep it simple for non-pilots/ non-IR pilots.

As for the fire, I guess if it actually did have a serious engine fire (and I mean serious) then continuing into BHX may well have been the most sensible decision, even if it was Cat III. If my aircraft was seriously on fire and the options were follow the ILS to landing at the airport I am at (even if below limits) or fly another 15 minutes up the road and hope it hasn't gone out of limits/ we haven't burnt out by then I think I know which one I would opt for!!!

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

Can I take this time to remind people to be a bit more sensitive before posting uninformed rumours as it isn't long before something posted here is recited on Sky News as "sky sources..."

[jackharr]

Quote: "Ok you trolls stop quoting the weather"

Note: I retrieved the TAFs and made no additional comments.

Jack

[cldrvr]

Sorry armchairs flyers, but if you are chucking cr@p out the back and the flames have left the combustion chamber with your alternates getting worse at the same time, you are going to continue your approach.

Stop making uneducated guesses about the circumstances until we get it from the source.

Any news on the crew?

[bbrown1664]

Birmingham Airport closed
Birmingham Airport closed
We can confirm that an incident has occurred at Birmingham Airport involving a private Cessna aircraft. The incident occurred on arrival into the Airport and the emergency services were in attendance.
There were two people on board, both males. One male is critical and was airlifted to a local hospital. The second male is suffering back pain and flash burns and has been transferred to a local hospital by road.
The airport is currently closed and is not likely to reopen before at least 20:00 this evening.
Those due to travel to the airport this evening should contact their airline for further guidance and not come to the airport at this time.
No further information is available at the moment.

[KarlADrage]

Beeb reporting that they've been taken to hospital - no mention on condition.

Hopefully the fact that the transplant organs were able to continue their journey to hospital via police motorcycle is some indication as to the level of damage caused to the aircraft.

[cldrvr]

As long as the crew will be fine in the end. The rest is irrelevant and we can all wait for the AAIB to do its thing.

[LessThanSte]

Not with 250m visibility you cant.......

You might see a glow in the mist then the aircraft appearing sliding along on fire, but you won't see the threshold from the golf course in such low vis.

Good point, though i was more referring to the fact that had he seen it on approach it wouldnt have been that low, so presumably at more or less a normal height when it appeared. In other words, i figured from that that theres no chance it would have landed short first and then got airborne again, otherwise 1) it would have been very low and obviously not a normal approach and 2) it would have hit something substantial.

That area is full of low rise flats, houses, car supermarkers and the like. Until you get to marston green park there isnt anything flat!

Though of course, i do stand to be corrected......!

[DB6]

Not that it has much bearing on the incident but the ILS on 15 has been Cat 1 only recently due to work in progress. Rwy 33 Cat 3 as far as I know.

[Happy Wanderer]

BBC reporting one pilot in critical condition, one with burns, organ ok, airport apparently re-opening 06.00 tmrw.

[jayc004]

Eye witness says it was on fire on approach.
Tell you what, even if it was LVP, I would be continuing if I had an uncontrolled fire regardless of what the RVR was.
Anyway, if the RVR was that low, how did and 'eye witness' see it!?

Latest rumour:-

Citation Transplant flight
2 survived
possible 2 didn't
Normally organs don't travel alone....??

[cldrvr]

There is a place and time for rumours and innuendos, this is not it.

Plenty of friends and family have loved ones out working tonight in these roles, no need to unnecesarily distress them and feed the news trolls at the same time.

Honour the name of the forum please; "Professional"

[silverknapper]

jayc004

Normally organs don't travel alone....??

Garbage. I have completed several organ flights with only the Cool box on board.
I hope this was the case here.

SK

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

If the plane was on fire on finals or not. The boys up front have done a fantastic job getting on the ground and allowing the organ to make its destination which may well save some ones life.

Think it time some of you remembered that these life saving flights go on unnoticed every day. So just a warning before some of the :mad:s on here start mud slinging.

[doubleu-anker]

OK Kings and Queens of the sky.

I think it is fair and logical to suggest weather/visibility may have played a part in this unfortunate incident.

The site is a rumour network after all. By the time the AAIB report comes out there will possibly (God forbid) be another 3 or 4 accidents to comment on. If people have something to say, let them have their say.

If there has been an accident I want to know as much as possible at the earliest opportunity, so I and others learn from it.. This is how we all continue to learn, from the misfortune others have experienced.

Leave it to the mods to police this forum.

From a pilot, IR and have been for many decades and still learning.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Don't panic the press are involved.....

Quote from sky news

Warwickshire and Northamptonshire Air Ambulance, which was called to the scene, said its crew found the pilot trapped in the burning wreckage.
"The air ambulance pilot entered the plane and used his aviation and technical knowledge to locate and cut the fuel supply to the engine," it said.

What a load of :mad:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

And if they are right Mr BUDGIE?

[LessThanSte]

Out of interest, the sky news story mentions gridlock on the A45? Why? Thats at the opposite end of the airfield if they've flown into 15, surely it hasnt made it all the way to the end and fallen onto the road?

More likely all the media trucks blocking the road to get the best view i suppose, since they cant get a truck to the other end...?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

And if they are right Mr BUDGIE?

Air ambo do a fantastic job as do all of the emergency services but I fail to see or believe that an helicopter can fly to the scene from cov and manage to beat the fire crews ( who obviously have no training in turning aircraft off or making them safe) to the cockpit and drag out the two pilots which they found trapped in the burning wreckage. Yeah ok..... :D

[flap15]

Jackharr-you where the 4th person to quote the weather!!!!!!!

Transplant organs were often unaccompanied, I know I have shifted a few as well as the transplant collection teams. Never get the liver dudes as they are the first in and last out. Much longer shelf life.

[seagull2200]

Don't panic the press are involved.....

Quote from sky news


Quote:
Warwickshire and Northamptonshire Air Ambulance, which was called to the scene, said its crew found the pilot trapped in the burning wreckage.
"The air ambulance pilot entered the plane and used his aviation and technical knowledge to locate and cut the fuel supply to the engine," it said.

What a load of

How on earth would you know ...where you there? If previous reports are correct in that the chopper had to wait for debris to be cleared - let alone any other reason, is it not viable that they had shut down?

Would it then not be possible, that IF the chopper pilot DID see something that he or she could do from their knowledge of aircraft to assist in someone remaining alive, that they would have done it - would you or I not do that?

I understand that 'on the face of it' due to our bureaucratically-conditioned perspectives as a result of the 'Health & Safety' mob, this could look incredible, due to that act not being 'in their remit'... Personally though, if lives are at risk and there's something i could do about it, then i'll deal with bureaucracy later.

All people who fly are hero's in my book... those who manage to get a plane down in those conditions with what may seem to have been possibly a serious issue even before they landed, are to be respected greatly.

[First.officer]

....agreed.....have flown transplant organs unaccompanied before.....in fact, strangely enough the last all night stint i did with organs was done from BHX to EDI by moi - enjoy those flights as i readily admit it seems so much more worthwhile knowing a life will be improved massively or even saved by these organs.

Oh, hope the crew are all okay in the aftermath......

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

All people who fly are hero's in my book... those who manage to get a plane down in those conditions with what may seem to have been possibly a serious issue even before they landed, are to be respected greatly.


spot on :ok:

[Crosswind Limits]

I do believe the chief pilot of the Warwick and Northants Air Ambulance is also a biz jet pilot so some of what has been quoted may well be true!

[WASALOADIE]

BBC reporting closure of Birmingham Airport following a small executive aircraft crash this afternoon.

BBC News - Birmingham Airport shut as transplant aircraft crashes (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11799829)

[cheekychappie]

Reports that it hit the ils antenna, imagine that will take a while to replace, at least all in board ok and the organ made it intact to hospital

[Dave Clarke Fife]

Running here since 1600................

http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/434322-bhx-closed-due-accident.html

[dontpressthat]

Talk about finger on the pulse...

[Road_Hog]

At the time of landing there was no fog at the airport.

The live liver was taken by ambulance (not by police motorcycle) and escorted by police motorcycles and looks to be okay for transplant.

Situation on the pilot/s.

One critical - pelvic, abdominal and chest injuries. One had flash burns. The critical pilot was flown by air ambulance.

[BrummyGit]

Am I the only one to ask why the moderator has moved this very pertinent thread from R & N? I thought N referred to NEWS! Does this serious accident have less credence than a cracked windscreen in America that is still on R & N (with on replys after hours on the website)? What are you thinking Mr. moderator? Anyway, hope the crew recover soon.
What he said

[Kerling-Approsh KG]

Me too.......

[Kerling-Approsh KG]

Maybe, realising it was significant news, the OP checked the top threads here and didn't see it...

Maybe it IS news and the Mods shouldn't have been so quick (again) to shovel the news off to the biz jet forum..?

[BrummyGit]

quote from the BBC
Mr Kehoe said the plane hit the instrument landing system glide path antennae (ILS) and had come to rest about 130m (426ft) to the right hand side of the southerly-facing runway.

[eastern wiseguy]

23c...spot on.

Hope the crew recover.

[cldrvr]

23C because we like to keep our little world to ourselves, don't need the snotty airline guys chirping in now do we ;)

[Cows getting bigger]

yadda yadda yadda. :zzz: Standby for a locking. FWIW I agree. An AOC op to an international airport where there is speculation about weather, instrument approach criteria etc is deemed not to be of importance to the wider commercial aviation community. Meanwhile, cracked windscreens and endless tech stuff about Trent 900 engines (specific to one type and a few airlines) attract front page status.

Of course, it isn't the members' forum; at least that is the line which is normally rolled out. :rolleyes:

Edited to say this message, like others, was moved from R&N :ugh:

[Kerling-Approsh KG]

Perhaps there should be an independent arbiter...

Threads should be left here until 24 hours have elapsed in which Sky haven't used the material on air, then they may be shunted off at will..?

Blah blah went downhill blah blah sold out blah Danny blah...

[BHXRWY33]

Hello Road Hog

I beg to differ re the visibility, post 65.

A friend of mine witnessed the accident. Thick fog had suddenly drifted over the 15 end of the runway.

BHXRWY33

[Road_Hog]

Okay, my info didn't come from pilots, so I suppose it is down to an understanding of how the weather is described, but it did come from the people waiting to pick up the organ.

[cldrvr]

Okay, my info didn't come from pilots, so I suppose it is down to an understanding of how the weather is described, but it did come from the people waiting to pick up the organ.Road Hog, have a look at the picture on the BBC news site, in any language that is not "clear" weather

The appropriate METARS were posted here previously

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50074000/jpg/_50074491_plane.jpg

[StressFree]

The pressure is growing for a response, could I respectfully add my request for an answer please. If this accident isn't news then what is?
This site is the Professional Pilots Rumour Network, the crew on this jet were professional pilots and yet their incident seems to be not worthy of being on the mainstream front page of the news forum..........

Maybe the website should be re-named the Airline Pilots Rumour Network?

:sad:

[cldrvr]

All Biz jet accidents and incidents have always been discussed here and not on the R&N thread. This is where it belongs.

[DB6]

Have to agree, strange decision to move the thread. As a scheduled airline pilot who was about to take off for BHX this afternoon I checked Prune as soon as I got home to find out the latest. If it's headline news on the BBC I kind of expect it to be in R&N on Prune, almost by definition. Mind you if I was a mod I don't think I'd feel I had to explain myself. Hope the pilots recover OK.

[Road_Hog]

That's a picture of fog, what is that to do with the weather conditions at the time of landing on the runway?

The exact words of the people waiting nearby the runway to take the organ.

"Fog was around Brum - but not over the airport at that precise time. Bright sunshine, clear skies."

I'm sure even a paramedic can get that right.

[Lonewolf_50]

"Maybe the website should be re-named the Airline Pilots Rumour Network?"
APRN

(Pronounced "Apron")

:E

[Mr.Bloggs]

Were the pilots both instrument-rated, type-rated , current, and LVP-qualified?

Just an obvious question, no insinuation.

[cldrvr]

Road Hog, read the Metars, there is no discussion needed, irrelevant of what a member of the public told you.

Egbb 191650z 01003kt 0100 R15/0300 R33/0300 Fg Vv/// 06/05 Q1012=
Egbb 191620z 01003kt 0100 R15/0300 R33/0275 Fg Bkn000 06/05 Q1011=
Egbb 191550z 01004kt 0250 R15/0275 R33/0325 Fg Nsc 07/05 Q1011=
Egbb 191520z 13003kt 9999 3000nw Prfg Few007 08/06 Q1011=
Egbb 191450z 15004kt 9999 Few007 09/07 Q1011=
Egbb 191420z 12004kt 090v160 9999 4500nw Few007 09/07 Q1011=
Egbb 191350z 12004kt 9999 Few007 09/07 Q1011=
Egbb 191320z 11004kt 070v140 9999 Sct007 08/07 Q1011=
Egbb 191250z Vrb03kt 9000 Sct005 08/08 Q1011=

[fisbangwollop]

Skynews now.....2 crew minor injuries also organ OK and delivered to hospital.

[StressFree]

Not sure I agree with you, I spent many years flying a business jet called a Boeing BBJ, if I had crashed at Birmingham I wonder where the news would be discussed?

Seems to me that we're second class citizens around here...........

[cldrvr]

Seems to me that we're second class citizens around here...........

Think about it, quite the opposite.

[StressFree]

Don't get your drift?

[DB6]

Bloggs, no such thing as an LVP qualification for pilots.

[500 above]

Bloggs

How many AOC jets do you know of operate day VFR? Maybe not lvp qualified, but asking if the guys are instrument rated? Come on. Its a business jet not a VFR ppl in a Seneca.

[cldrvr]

SF, it keeps the amount of armchair pilots and trolls down and the discussion generally tends to centre around Bizjet crew.

[StressFree]

Beg to differ old chap, theres LVP qualifications necessary to operate below CAT 1 minima. I held CAT 3A LVP on both an MD-87 and 737-BBJ. You can't just fly CAT 2 and 3 without holding a company qualification to do so.

[StressFree]

Fair point, I see what you mean.

[cldrvr]

SF, LVP on a Citation would only apply if you wanted to takeoff under an AOC with RVR less then 400m, otherwise no LVP required. a Citation is not cat II or III.

Anybody out there able to correct me on this?

[Nogbad the Bad]

I quite agree - why was this thread moved ????

[StressFree]

You're right but this was a landing accident in conditions that seem to have been below CAT1, therefore Article 39 and 40 of the ANO applies (unless you have passed the OM or 4 mile point). With no LVO capability on a Citation something else may have been going on to foce the crew into this approach?

I'd rather nor speculate too much, I hate Bizjet accidents, ours is a small world and it always feels very close to home when some of our colleagues come to grief.

Lets just hope they both fully recover.

[cldrvr]

They were spitting bits out the back and on fire, I can hazard an educated guess that EU-OPS was the last thing on their mind.

ANO has been history for a while.

[jayc004]

I was at the airport about 30 seconds after they closed the A45 road.
One police car and van were there.
There was no fog at the airport, however about 2 miles down the road whilst driving to the airport, the fog was very thick, and I would guess it was not far from the perimeter.
An ambulance was driving FROM the airport towards the A45. Maybe the ambulance there to collect the organ?
Major amounts of Police motorcycles and Fire engines major incident units arrived about 5 mins after I went into the airport.
Where are the crash gates into the airport?.........I know there is one at the threshold of 33, which is connected to the A45.
Anyway, I hope that all everyone that was involved is OK. My heart and thoughts go out to all the people injured, and I wish them a speedy recovery.

[StressFree]

Agree fully, it wouldn't be on my mind in those circumstances..........

Sods law isn't it? You have a major problem on the day that theres fog around?

I wish them well.

[cldrvr]

The aircraft took out the "ILS antenna" [not sure which] on landing, according to Birmingham airport. This was not your normal variety approach and landing, they made it within the perimeter and according to most sources have only minor injuries, they did well.

Time will tell the rest.

[DB6]

StressFree, it is my understanding that Cat2/3 ops are known as LVOs. LVPs are ground procedures put in place during low visibility to ensure things aren't where they're not meant to be when no-one can see them (more or less). LVPs don't imply Cat 2/3 conditions. Your company may have called them LVP qualifications, however I am not aware of a JAA LVP qualification. Having said that I will stand corrected and have learnt something new if wrong!

[Feathers McGraw]

If you have a look at Google Maps, you'll see that the ILS localiser antenna (for 33 I presume) is pretty close to the perimeter fence.

From memory, I think that the fence is on lower ground than the runway itself, but if they hit the antenna they must have been very close to coming down outside the fence.

This could have ended up so much worse, let's hope that they both recover quickly.

[Trash_Hauler]

Am I the only one to ask why the moderator has moved this very pertinent thread from R & N? I thought N referred to NEWS! Does this serious accident have less credence than a cracked windscreen in America that is still on R & N (with on replys after hours on the website)? What are you thinking Mr. moderator? Anyway, hope the crew recover soon.

Could not agree more. I will probably get banned for this but this was a really poor (and very quick) decision!

[AV Flyer]

The BBC news article first reports the aircraft took out the ILS antennae (plural) it then goes on to report a Mr. Kehoe as saying the aircraft took out the ILS glide path antenna. It also reports him saying the aircraft ended-up to the right of the southern-facing runway. Mr. Kehoe's reported comments would at least be consistent. There is no mention anywhere of the aircraft specifically hitting the ILS localiser antenna having just made it to the airfield perimeter.

As is common in accidents, there are more questions than answers so, as said before, it is pretty useless at this time attempting to speculate on cause based on snippets of information from arbitrary news articles.

AVF

[Feathers McGraw]

Good point, I hadn't considered that.

Looking at Google Maps again, I can see the glideslope antenna, and in fact it's between runway 15 and Hatchford Brook golf course where one of the originally interviewed witnesses was located so it seems quite likely that this was the antenna that was involved in the collision. It's hundreds of metres from the perimeter fence that's next to the localiser antenna.

[BrummyGit]

From Home - Birmingham Airport (http://www.bhx.co.uk)
Following an incident at Birmingham Airport on Friday afternoon, involving a private Cessna aircraft, the Airport runway remains closed until 12:00 Saturday 20th November at the earliest and no flights will operate before this time.

[Airbus Girl]

The only people who knew if there was thick fog on the approach/ threshold are the pilots on this approach. On the ground you can be in thick fog and then 10m later be in a clear patch. So please can all the non commercial pilots please stop saying it was a gin clear day. At the time and place the jet landed, the only people who knew the weather at that specific point of the airport would have been the pilots.

And yes, I am a pilot, thousands of hours on jets and yes, LVO qualified.

[C550jockey]

A very sad day for all concerned.
Until a few months ago I used to work for the operators of the aircraft involved and had flown the aircraft concerned on many occasions.
I await the investigation report with interest.
My heartfelt thoughts go out to the two crew members and their families. Get well soon guys.
CR

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Airbus Girl,
The only people who knew if there was thick fog on the approach/ threshold are the pilots on this approach

Really? Bloke in the tower? Ranger guy in the landy, where was he? Anyone else at the hold waiting? Aircraft 5 or 10 miles behind them?

On the ground you can be in thick fog and then 10m later be in a clear patch

So are you saying that I can't see fog 10m away? If I could see fog 10m away would I say it was a gin clear day?

So please can all the non commercial pilots please stop saying it was a gin clear day

Are commercial pilots, like you and I, the only people capable of seeing the weather? Non-commercial pilots (whatever that means) don't know what fog looks like?

At the time and place the jet landed, the only people who knew the weather at that specific point of the airport would have been the pilots.

Agreed but entirely irrelevant. We are more concerned with the visual range down the runway rather than "that specific point of the airport" are we not?

And yes, I am a pilot, thousands of hours on jets and yes, LVO qualified.

Good for you.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Thats what I like about this place. You read through the posts and realise that on the face of it the pilots did a fantastic job and look like there going to be fine. They may well have saved some ones life (the purpose of the flight in the first place)

So how many posts actually congratulate the drivers. Not many.

Slagging each other off. Check
Slagging off the press. Check
Slagging off the mods. Check
Arguing about the weather when most of you were not even there. Check
Putting in your 2p's worth about how it happened Not yet but it won't be long.

To the pilots on the day when you start to read this thread about you first off get better soon and hope you return to what your good at and love and I :D you for what you did.

standby by and see how long some of this ends up blue and slagged off. 5 4 3 2 1

[Aviophage]

You are talking out of your retto. You are not a commercial pilot and I have arrived at that decision by simply examining your posts.

We need to get back on topic chaps. Stick to the facts and the facts only.

Malicious rumours, lies, fabrications of the truth or mere and uneducated speculation can end up being sourced in the media. The family of the pilots injured would not like that to happen.

You remember what happened to Peter Burkill?

Good. Let's remain on topic.

I believe the pilots were carrying out a CAT III approach when they shouldn't have been in the first place. Pilot error. :ugh:

[RoyHudd]

Human error, old chap. (Unless you employ terms like wife error, police error, ATC error, politician error, fireman error, judge error, doctor error)

[WestWind1950]

about the thread being moved...

This is the biz jet section, and the accident was a biz jet, it happened at a UK airport. Most of the news on the R&N main page is of INTERNATIONAL importance. Since the title is visible on the R&N page (where I also went looking for it), what's the problem? :rolleyes:

Good luck to the pilots and patient waiting for the new liver!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Really? Bloke in the tower? Ranger guy in the landy, where was he?>>

The Air Traffic Control Officers in the tower have instrumented RVR readings which would have been passed to the pilot. They have no discretion on otherwise reporting visibility. "Ranger guy in the landy"?? I think you are some years behind the times if you mean the counting the edge lights!

[Sillert,V.I.]

The reported weather would indeed suggest that the runway was CAT III at the time of the accident. However, it is not pilot error if the aircraft commander reasonably believed that he needed to land immediately; an uncontained fire would surely qualify.

Now this is speculation, but if the a/c had been able to safely maintain flight, and had diverted to a suitable alternate, it is likely that the organ would have been lost, which would have endangered the life of the recipient. I am curious - would that in itself constitute sufficient reason to continue the approach below minima? Not saying this is what actually happened, just curious.

In the event, it appears that the decision to continue saved at least one life. Respect to all concerned.

[oldventure]

Here's an eyewitness report of sorts for you.

At the time of the accident the airfield was in brilliant sunshine however a fog bank could be seen around the 15 threshold (viewed from the Elmdon Building (old terminal). Myself and colleagues had watched the previous landings (a BEE DH8D and AUR AT72) disappear into the fog on short finals and emerge well over the runway. We commented that we were surprised they hadn't gone around, especially the ATR. Comments from those crews would be illuminating.

The fog was purely at the 15 end and we were actually questioning why ATC were still positioning traffic for 15 when the 33 end was in the clear and the wind negligable. The fog bank was steadily moving along the runway, hence the rapid drop in touch down RVR. I didn't see the Citation on approach or hit(?) the ground but did see it emerge from the fog nose pointing away from the runway and saw a rapid fire and a very large plume of black smoke (I assume this was as it hit the 15 GP aerial). A few seconds later it was obscured by the fog. There was then a delay of several minutes before the fire service turned out which lead us in the office to question what we had actually seen, particuarly as the aircraft could no longer be seen because of the fog

From my viewpoint the fog seems to have been a serious factor here with a rapid deterioration of visibility at low level. I cannot say what the touchdown RVR was at the precise time of the accident but it had been above CAT 1 imediately before, but within about 10 minutes of the accident the whole airport from our viewpoint was enveloped in thick fog although the Helimed Agusta from Coventry let down visually on the 33 threshold but could not be seen from the tower.

From my perspective the two areas of interest would be the rapid loss of visability around the 15 touchdown zone and the initial confusion and delay in responding to the accident, probably the sudden loss of visibility played a part in that?.

After seeing the above I cannot tell you the relief at hearing the Helimed depart to Walsgrave Hospital and seeing an ambulance leave on blue lights shortly after...

Regards
OV

[Cloud Chaser]

AD Aviation Ltd Home Page (http://www.ad-aviation.com/index.php)

[First.officer]

Airbus Girl

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are talking out of your retto. You are not a commercial pilot and I have arrived at that decision by simply examining your posts.




Aviophage........oh, she is a commercial pilot.....that much is definite.....and you can tell what a/c she flies, hint is in her profile name (oh, and the fact i've flown with her whilst i was working out back helps confirm my knowledge)

As for talking out of her "retto" (not heard that before lol), i think not - all she is saying that due to the rapidly changing nature of the "fog bank","mist", etc., only the crew know what THEY could or could not see from a visual perspective, regardless of who else was in the vicinty of the accident area - i believe that might be the point she was making, apologies Airbus Girl if it isn't ?!



Malicious rumours, lies, fabrications of the truth or mere and uneducated speculation can end up being sourced in the media. The family of the pilots injured would not like that to happen.



I believe the pilots were carrying out a CAT III approach when they shouldn't have been in the first place. Pilot error.

Ah, Aviophage - definitely no uneducated speculation in your post there then, nice to see someone berate a colleague, post his/her reasons and then apply absolutely no thought - and even in the same post - still, maybe that's because your head is in your "retto" ?? (i still don't know what a "retto" is ??)

[manrow]

Good to hear that the liver transplant operation went ahead last night.

[davelongdon]

Decision Height......Nothing Seen.....Going Around ???!?? :uhoh:

[390cruise]

Guys

I agree with the comments made by First Officer about Airbusgirl (Boeingbird?) and would add she has over ten years of experience in modern airline jets.

I recall one occasion in the hold with weather well below the cat2 minima requiered going round the hold watching the fog moving rather too slowly, finally to break off to join downwind for a visual approach to the other end of the runway!! (that Airport only had an approved procedure for one end)

Perhaps rather than start slagging people off we should all wait for the final report?

In the meanwhile I wish a rapid recovery for the crew involved.

390

[CL300]

DB6

AWO is in eu-ops... you can be 125 m trained for T/O and still need the standard 550m for landing.

As for the Citation family, yes their autopilot is CAT2 capable, however a long lasting habit and beliefs, are driving people away from these approvals. ( mainly due to the fact that most of the crews are stepping into a sim once a year only, and that continuous airworthiness programs are not widespread among operators)
As for other bizjets, the lowest I did was Cat3B manual with hud on the 900, 150m/50ft minimas..
Nethertheless, this case will be clarified by the authorities, and since the crew is alive , that will help.. ( unlike the BIG accident..)

[Mornington Crescent]

cldrvr

There appear to be ANOs
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=226 (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=226)

As amended in April this year. Perhaps you could clarify?

[INNflight]

The following link has four photographs of the airframe in the field as well as the damaged ILS GP antenna - looks like they either had a huge fire aboard already on final or it just burnt out on the ground?

Glad both pilots made it OK!

Search results from AirTeamImages.com (http://www.airteamimages.com/search.php?searchside=1&key1=G-VUEM)

[haughtney1]

The Air Traffic Control Officers in the tower have instrumented RVR readings which would have been passed to the pilot. They have no discretion on otherwise reporting visibility. "Ranger guy in the landy"?? I think you are some years behind the times if you mean the counting the edge lights!

As ever HD, your sage words of common sense..and experience IMHO highlight the key to how this may have transpired.

IF the crew requested the reported RVR's before the approach ban point (1000ft AAL etc) then they ARE/WERE entitled to continue the approach as long as the values were above their respective minima. From that stage untill DA, it is entirely at the discretion of the PIC to continue or discontinue the approach with respect to reported minima. Then at DA there are specific external visual references required to continue to land...or to execute a missed approach.
At any stage between DA and touchdown, loss of visual reference mandates a Go-around.
Reading between the lines here..and assuming the aircraft was servicable to commence the approach (big assumption I know).then perhaps these chaps were unfortunate enough to lose visual reference at a point where they were effectively commited to a landing....i.e. idle thrust..in the flare or touching down..etc etc.
If this is the case..then it is just about as scary scenario as it gets close to the ground.
If however they were pushing their minima, then lets the chips fall where they need to fall.
In any case, I wish the crew a speedy recovery:ok:

[fade to grey]

Nice post haughtney, all good. I can see 2 clear scenarios here
1.they may have been on fire, decided to try and get in - it didn't work.
2.RVR dropped and continued , inside marker, hoping for visual reference.

Either way good luck to the crew I hope they recover.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

<<Really? Bloke in the tower? Ranger guy in the landy, where was he?>>

The Air Traffic Control Officers in the tower have instrumented RVR readings which would have been passed to the pilot. They have no discretion on otherwise reporting visibility. "Ranger guy in the landy"?? I think you are some years behind the times if you mean the counting the edge lights!

Yes, we all know that. The point was that...
The only people who knew if there was thick fog on the approach/ threshold are the pilots on this approach ...is wrong.

As far as the Ranger guy in the Landy, as has been pointed out, at Southampton that is exactly what they do, up to date me. Not only that but they also 'range' around the airport and may have been sat near the threshold at the time. I don't know if he was, I don't know if he wasn't either. So again the above quote is wrong.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Point is, Spandex, there are certain rules about passing weather information to pilots. At some places the phrase "Unofficial observation from the tower reports....." may be used, but I doubt this is employed at Birmingham (which is where the accident occurred, not Southampton). I had a ridiculous IRVR reading at Heathrow once - the whole airfield was clear - but I was bound to read it and the pilot of an aircraft about to land said "I can see the runway clearly but I must act on the IRVR reading you have passed so I'm going around". Yes, lots of people would question that decision, but I know who I'd rather fly with and it's not the pilot who has the "let's have a look-see" attitude.

[Tom355uk]

Guys,

We all know this character is a troll, and a pretty vicious one at that. He has been caught out so many times, and frankly I am surprised that the mods haven't banned him. Check out his previous posts and you will see exactly what I mean :mad:

Now, a quick look at those pictures in the link reveals the aircraft to be right next to the windsock, which puts it about 600m past the threshold of 15, 250m from the glideslope antenna and about 125m from the right hand edge of the runway. Interestingly, an imaginary line between the antenna and the windsock is almost perfectly parallel to the runway.

I'm not going to speculate, I'm just glad that all of the occupants, including the liver got out in one piece and I eagerly await the AAIB report.

[BrummyGit]

Some very good news from AD Aviation Ltd Home Page (http://www.ad-aviation.com/index.php)

Our primary concern has been the safety of the air crew and we now advise they are on the road to recovery in fact one of the pilots has been discharged from hospital this morning. The transplant organ carried by the flight was recovered and was successfully transplanted to it's recipient.

[call100]

From the pictures it looks like it spun 180 degrees. It's facing North, I believe it came in on 15.
Good news about the pilots and the transplant recipient. Best wishes to all.

[theavionicsbloke]

Wing Leading Edge (Port side by the look of it) impact with the radio mast may have ruptured the fuel cell (Even though CAA Special conditions requires a strenghtened leading edge modification to be embodied to UK registerd Cessna Citation Types). This could have started the fire rather than an engine fire occuring earlier on the approach. Note from the pictures that the most intense area of fire is around the Port Wing.

Wondering how the aircraft ended up so far off the Centre Line?
Even with an engine out, with light winds I can't imagine an asymmetric approach and landing resulting in a collison with the Mast.
Nav Receiver Localiser calibration error, FMS error or LVP issue maybe??

AAIB report will make interesting reading. Hope we can all benefit from lessons learned.

However, all that matters though is that the crew are alive!
Wishing them a speedy recovery.
Good Luck for the future guys!!

[Ransman]

I think this a/c used to be registered as G-FLVU, one of AD's first aircraft. Speedy recovery guys.

[theavionicsbloke]

Ransman.
You are correct

[vintage ATCO]

Interestingly, an imaginary line between the antenna and the windsock is almost perfectly parallel to the runway.

It would be. Kit like that and things like IRVR would be planted on the edge of the Cleared and Graded Area which at that part of the runway would be 105m from the centreline. CGA near the ends narrows to 75m.

[goldeneaglepilot]

Thank God the pilots are alive, irrespective of the events leading to the crash from the pictures the airport fire service did a great job in putting the fire out so quickly. Looking closely at the pictures posted earlier it would seem that the entire port side has smoke / fire damage, yet the starboard side still shows bright white paint.

Its hard to speculate on the cause, but many seem prepared to.

I was involved many years ago in a fire in a Seneca which occured in an engine on finals, I was told afterwards that the time elapsed from me declaring a Mayday to the airport fire services extinquishing the fire was minutes, however I am still haunted by the memories of heat on my back when I ran from the plane upon landing. The heat builds up with incredible speed. Its not surprising the one pilot suffered flash burns.

[AV Flyer]

vintage ATCO - While it is interesting to note that the ILS GP Antenna and the Windsock are aligned to the edge of the runway CGA, I suspect the "interestingly" that Tom335uk was refering to was the fact that the aircraft continued in a straight line after hitting the ILS GP Antenna thus suggesting its track was signifcantly (at least 105 m) displaced to the right of the ILS15 Localiser during its instrument approach while below the DA with all the possible implications that observation may suggest.

[Sir George Cayley]

Noticed a few points from the AirTeam photos a couple of pages back

The Glide Path lattice aerial is bent backwards, On the face you can see two of the three transmitters - the top one appears to be missing.

The main damage is to the top section (painted orange) which by scaling the cabin at 2.5m puts the contact point above 10m

The head on shot shows major disruption to the nose section besides the fire damage (crazing to windshield etc)

There's a large cut in the leading edge of the port wing about at the change in wing profile.

Sir George Cayley

[bizjets101]

The Kathryn Report: Up close shot of crash site and update on organ transplant: Cessna Citation Eagle II, G-VUEM, Birmingham International Airport (BHX) United Kingdom (http://www.thekathrynreport.com/2010/11/up-close-shot-of-crash-site-and-update.html)

Update and link to a photo just released on msnbc.

[Slopey]

Footage of the aircraft being moved on el Beeb here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11803947)

[G-CPTN]

BBC News - Birmingham airport reopens after private jet crash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11804482)

[HS125]

The head on shot shows major disruption to the nose section besides the fire damage (crazing to windshield etc)

The Citation has plastic windshields using Bleed Air (Normal) and Alcohol (Alternate) ice protection. As far as I can see the damage to the windshields, particularly on the left side is broadly consistent with other Citations that have burned.

[SilsoeSid]

I know as much as 99% of those here, diddly squat, but noticed there may be some confusion about the 'Air Ambulance' pilot climbing into the burning wreckage.
Bearing in mind that these type of flights are sometimes referred to as 'Air Ambulance' flights, todays Mercury may have one solution to the misunderstanding, but then again from the quote in the next paragraph, makes it more of a muddle.

Shocking pictures of crash plane at Birmingham Airport - Sunday Mercury (http://www.sundaymercury.net/news/midlands-news/2010/11/21/shocking-pictures-of-crash-plane-at-birmingham-airport-66331-27685905/)

Amazingly, no-one was killed and yesterday tributes poured in to the brave pilot who braved searing flames to help rescue the liver, which was being delivered for transplant.

The 58 year-old, who suffered multiple injuries, went back into the burning plane to cut off the fuel supply so that the organ could be retrieved. He was later airlifted to hospital.


Last night Andy Williamson, Chief Executive for Warwickshire & Northamptonshire Air Ambulance said: “In this instance our pilot and crew were called to a very difficult mission.

“The flying, landing and working conditions were very challenging – and as our pilot climbed into the smouldering wreckage his knowledge and bravery went way beyond the call of duty.


In any case, a huge hats off to the pilot whoever you are and very best wishes for a speedy recovery. :ok:

[2nd-generation]

..until it struck the GS antanna(e)?

Please don't flame me for my first post... 8 year reader/squatter here!

Thanks.

[Keith Blackham]

I was at BHX when this accident occured although I did not see anything. There was a clear blue sky over the airfield and then a dense fog bank drifted across from Marston Green. This happened within minutes and soon the entire airport was shrouded in dense fog. It was akin to sea mist which can cause difficulties at Jersey which is an island field.

[Kengineer-130]

Well great news the crew are ok, I have not been able to see the news over the weekend, and was under the impression that it was a fatal accident.

So so glad to read everyone is ok, that is all that matters. Speedy recovery to all involved :ok:

[beamender99]

BBC News - Man saved by Birmingham Airport aircraft crash liver (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-11813897)

The patient who received the organ was listed as "super urgent" because at the time he was one of the sickest people on the transplant list in the UK."Patients who are on this list only have a matter of days to survive, so in this particular instance it was crucially important that the donor liver was used and has functioned successfully,"

"A spokeswoman for the private plane charter firm AD Aviation said: "The pilots are both doing fine.
"One was released from hospital on Saturday, the other is still being treated. His injuries are not life-threatening but his recuperation could take a number of weeks. "One of the pilots got out of the plane themselves while the other had to be rescued. Both are very experienced pilots who we've known for a number of years."

[hawker750]

Quote
"A spokeswoman for the private plane charter

I wish people would get this point clear that there is no such thing as a " private plane charter", it is either a private plane or a charter plane. You can be private in a charter plane but it is illegal to charter a private plane.

[Crosswind Limits]

2nd-generation

You may or may not be right! A few different scenarios have run through my mind as to why they hit the ILS GP antenna. I've got my own hunch but there we go..............

Glad to know the seriously injured pilot is on the mend! :ok:

[Avioactive]

As this was AD Aviation's Citation ISP (titled to Frandley Aviation Partnership LLP) and it was carrying an organ it has to have been a public transport (charter) operation and so any reference to 'private' flight is misdirected. Or was it?

Of course a Cessna 501 could have been flown single pilot on a private basis - would that still be the case on a charter if there were no pax but just cargo/organs etc.?

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Does it really bloody matter, the "private charter" quote didn't come from Flight International it came of the beeb who are reporting to a layman....

Its simply referring to the airplane as a private aircraft as opposed to a public aircraft such as an airbus.

They make the distinction as if it was a "public" aircraft and it had crashed on landing it would be front page news and this would be in rumours and news

[Sepp]

I thought this was a forum for professionals? AD operate under a EU AOC, and have undertaken many such flights as such. I take it we have all heard of leasing? Yes?

Can we stop the "private" implications, now? It is bollox, and quite ... well, sad, really.

Ta.

The man lying in hospital is a good bloke. I speak from personal experience. Forthright. Honest. Let's make our focus his recovery, yes?

[C550jockey]

Thoroughly agree with Sepp.
Speculation, misinformation and the like is way out of order :=
Our thoughts should be with the crew members after this sad event.
Unlike some "dodgy" operators that I won't mention, AD Aviation has always operated to the letter of the law and I am sure that they will continue to do so.
Best wishes to the two crew who are former colleagues and personal friends of mine.... Both bloody good jockeys and great guys. Get well soon.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

sepp pm recvd/sent

[cambridge]

What was the BHX Metar as this aircraft flew the approach?

[Bolli]

Hi guys

I was jsut wondering whether the ILS beacon in still out of action, and what measures are being taken to work around it?

delete this if it is obvoius and ive been a :mad:

Bolli

[theavionicsbloke]

Egbb Notam

Q) Egtt/qigas/i/nbo/a/000/999/5227n00145w005
B) From: 10/11/20 17:25c) To: 10/12/23 10:00 Est
E) Ils 15 Gp Out Of Service.

Q) EGTT/QICTT/I/BO/A/000/999/5227N00145W005
B) FROM: 10/11/04 08:40C) TO: 11/02/28 23:59
E) RWY 15 ILS REPLACEMENT WORK. SUP 039/2010 REFERS

[imperial_monkfish]

The 15 ILS was in the process of being replaced anyway. I guess this will just speed things up a little.....

[Old and Horrified]

Just heard that there is a programme about this crash on BBC1 Midlands tonight at 7.30

[airsound]

Are you sure about that, O&H? My Sky electronic programme guide shows Wallace & Grommit across all BBC 1 regionals at 1930 tonight (1 Dec)

I'd certainly be interested to see such a programme.

airsound

[airsound]

Have just talked to Midlands Today, and it seems it's an 'Inside Out' programme (on BBC 1 West Mids - Sky chan 979, don't know the other channel numbers, sorry) - but that's next Monday 6 Dec, not tonight.

Thanks for the heads-up, though, O&H.

Edited to add - it's described as
"A special film on the Birmingham aircrash: from the brave efforts to save a donated liver from the plane's wreckage to the organ transplant that saved a patient's life."

airsound

[Old and Horrified]

Thanks for the correction! Need to get a new hearing aid.....

[His dudeness]

Very disappointed with a lot of the comments on this thread, so much for professionalism.

Can you contribute something useful? No? Thought so...

[Dawdler]

In a publicity puff for tonight's programme, it is revealed that one of the BHX's fire crew went into the cockpit to extricate the pilot. Then whilst he was being airlifted to hospital, the organ was retrieved from the aircraft.

[Spunky Monkey]

What? The fire crew went in an air ambulance?

[Dawdler]

I am sorry if my message which was intended to convey some interesting/useful information was in a form which was so easily misinterpreted.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

so the spin put on by the amb service that their pilot turned off the fuel and engines was as rubbish as we thought it was.:ugh:

[Dawdler]

I'll guess we'll wait and see.

BTW my original one-word answer to SM was rejected by the forum's software.

[EGCA]

The Midlands Today "Inside Out" piece was centered around an interview with the airport fireman who went into the aircraft and dragged the more seriously injured crew member out.
No mention of the alleged situation where the air ambulance pilot was reported as entering the aircraft to turn off the fuel and electrics. ( would he do that, and risk prejudicing the air ambulance flight if he got into difficulties entering the crashed aircraft?)

Slightly amusing interview with the witness from the golf course who said the jet was travelling at " several hundred miles an hour" as it came down, but apart from that and the now usual short duration shots and swivelly blurry camera-work that production people fail to realise makes for quite unpleasant viewing, we learned little about the accident, and there was no new footage.
The liver transplant was thankfully successful.

No news about the pilot, lets hope he continues to recover from his injuries.

[Sepp]

He does. :ok:

[EGCA]

Sepp: Thats good news, thanks.

EGCA

[grundyhead]

FYI

Air Accidents Investigation: Cessna 501 Citation, G-VUEM (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/august_2011/cessna_501_citation__g_vuem.cfm)

[cats_five]

Story about the woman who received the liver in the Wail:

Kate Trevener meets hero fireman Nick Jordan who rescued her donor liver from a plane crash | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2084616/Kate-Trevener-meets-hero-fireman-Nick-Jordan-rescued-donor-liver-plane-crash.html)