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View Full Version : Is jetstar about to operate illegally in NZ?


Fruet Mich
19th Nov 2010, 03:32
Word on the street is Jetstar are about to send a heap of cadets over to NZ with less than the required hours to operate under the NZCAA rules for part 121 operation. Hmmm very naughty Brucie, this could potentially hurt!

Operating minimums for part 121 under NZCAA rules are 500hrs TT of which 100hrs must be ATO. Rules are as follows:

c) ANZA activities in New Zealand authorised by Australian
AOCs with ANZA privileges.

Section 28BD Compliance with civil aviation law

(1) The holder of an AOC must comply with all requirements of this
Act, the regulations and the Civil Aviation Orders that apply to the
holder.

(2) The holder of an Australian AOC with ANZA privileges must
comply with all requirements of the Civil Aviation Act 1990 of
New Zealand, and of the regulations and rules under that Act, that
apply to the holder in relation to the ANZA activities in New
Zealand authorised by the AOC.

Any ideas how Jetstar get around this rule? This could be another Singapore, oh dear Bruce, things not working out?:=

Lookleft
19th Nov 2010, 04:20
I think you will find that they are based there for pay purposes but will be flying in Oz. I have been told they will be paid 43K NZ but will have to pay back the training in AUD. They will be the new working poor.

Fruet Mich
19th Nov 2010, 04:31
Regardless of the fact if they are based in Australia or New Zealand, if they are flying on New Zealand domestic routes, Jetstar must adhere to the local rules and regulations of the NZCAA.

So to fly on NZ domestic routes, all part 121 FO's need a minimum of 500hrs TT and 100hrs ATO.

ai pai
19th Nov 2010, 05:22
TALK ABOUT DESPERATE TIMES DESPERATE MEASURES....BONUSES NOT LOOKING LIKELY FOR BB??? RIGHT ON THE MONEY FRUET:ok:
THIS IS GONNA GET UGLY!!!!!!:}

Lindstrim
19th Nov 2010, 07:35
Are they Still operating Vh reg on the buses?

As it could be their way around things much like Vincent flying ZK reg planes up in the north end?

Massey058
19th Nov 2010, 07:38
I have been told they will be paid 43K NZ but will have to pay back the training in AUD. They will be the new working poor.

If true that is truly embarrassing. I know the industry is on a downhill slide but seriously? If I didn't think the idea was pathetic beforehand I sure do now!

thrustpig
19th Nov 2010, 07:50
Pilots subsiding on food stamps. You thought it could only happen in America? Aviation new-world order is global. Perhaps someone can remind me what airline executives to pilots pay ratio was say 15 years ago??

breakfastburrito
19th Nov 2010, 08:01
I have been told they will be paid 43K NZ but will have to pay back the training in AUD. They will be the new working poor.
Lookleft, they are NOT the working poor, the working poor are not indebted to their employer, they don't have to work for a predatory employer. These cadets cannot afford not to work for j*. We'll split hairs on the definition of indentured servitude vs slavery for this practice.

And people entered this willingly? I did my best to warn people of this outcome, a carbon copy of the CTC/Easyjet cadet situation.

400ER
19th Nov 2010, 10:50
JQ156 CHC-MEL on Thurs morning was cancelled due no crew and JQ166 CHC-MEL on Fri was delayed due crew shortages. It appeared the JQ domestic aircraft use VH rego.

ai pai
19th Nov 2010, 11:02
Pac Blue is /will be the same cancel flights just like Jetstar no crew when will these [email protected]%$ wits ever learn....:ugh:

Normasars
19th Nov 2010, 11:19
Lookleft,

You are right on the money re these sprogs on NZ T&C's but working in OZ on the local network. A friend of mine has a son going through this very process now and he(the son) was told if he applies for LWP from JQ NZ he can expect to get it, and stay in OZ on the JQ NZ T&Cs.

I have said before that this outfit is the cancer of aviation and been abused for saying it. Go figure.:yuk:

I am staggered at the new lows this outfit continues to trumpet. I am even more staggered by the fact that there are idiots out there lining up for this [email protected]

Fruet Mich
19th Nov 2010, 16:44
Well jetstar legally can NOT put these pilots on a NZ contract if they do NOT have the legal requirement to fly as an FO in NZ regardless of if it is in a VH rego or NZ. If these guys can not legally work in NZ then surely the must have to go on the Australian EBA.

Unless of course jetstar are hiring people in direct conflict to the local Australian EBA.

As I've said before, Bruce thinks he is very smart but he's a money man and not an aviation man and he will find out very soon what happens when you don't treat your staff with respect and integrity, they all leave and aircraft get parked up.

We should start calling him nurse Bruce, he's putting bandaid's on deep cuts, but soon the bandaid's aren't going to stop the blood.

ferris
19th Nov 2010, 16:59
Isn't this "people trafficking"? I thought this was frowned on?

toolish
19th Nov 2010, 17:39
Thread drift but "for info" J* has 30% of scheduled flights in Dec with no tech crew rostered and will be relying on good will. Good luck with that:D.

Steve Zissou
19th Nov 2010, 19:02
Diffrerence here with the example of Vincent operating ZK reg acft in Aus is that the NZCAA requirements for Part 121 are actually more restrictive than on the western side of The Tasman (in this example at least).

Wasn't aware of the 500 hour TT requirement for F/O's before operating 121 aircraft but was aware of the requirement to have 500 hours 121 time before operating as PIC on 121 aircraft. This is not a requirement in Aus (VH reg acft).

Fruet Mich
19th Nov 2010, 22:51
121.509 Second-in-command experience
Each holder of an air operator certificate shall ensure that any person designated as second-in-command of an air operationó

(1) is suitably trained and qualified on the aeroplane type; and

(2) is capable, in the event of the pilot-in-command being incapacitatedó

(i) of operating the aeroplane safely under the prevailing and anticipated forecast weather conditions; and

(ii) of deputising for the pilot-in-command; and

(iii) of landing the aeroplane at the intended destination or a suitable alternate.

121.511 Pilot experience
The certificate holder shall ensure that each person acting as a pilot, other than as pilot-in-command, of an aeroplane, prior to commencing the training specified in Subpart I or Subpart Mó

(1) has acquired at least 500 hours of flight time as a pilot, including at least 100 hours of flight time in air operations; and

(2) has acquired at least 25 hours of night flight experience; and

(3) holds a current instrument rating.

:=:=

The Green Goblin
19th Nov 2010, 23:11
I hope NZ change that to 1500 hours and an ATPL to stop this bastardization by Australian companies.

I sick of reading about this shite.

I hope the mexican chokes on his burrito.

NoseGear
20th Nov 2010, 00:10
GG!! Tell me it isn't so!?!? Your hoping for help from New Zealand....?!?!?:E Jeez that must hurt to say that?!:E:ok::D:}

For what it's worth, if you ask any of the newbies what they hope to achieve, it's always the same...."I'm going to get some experience and then go somewhere that pays well":rolleyes: Of course, what they fail to see is, with everyone out there for "experience" there is no longer a need for an airline to pay a descent salary....vicious circle springs to mind:ugh:

As for the 100 hour ATO etc, I know a number of years ago in NZ when the industry was in full swing, CAA was pretty quick to give an exemption to that rule. So don't hold your breath that the NZCAA will stop the rot. Sadly.

point76
22nd Nov 2010, 21:29
Recently spoke to one of the current group of 4 Australian cadets about to start line training with JS .They are all from the 'advanced' cadet stream and have 500+ hours. Basically it seems they all had to sign NZ contracts and will be nominally based in CHC or AKL.They have been promised they can fly back in Oz but will have to take LWOP from Jetstar NZ and be based in Oz on a temporary contract at NZ rates!
Once again BB is treating the profession of pilot with contempt but is he trying to be too clever by far? This attitude he has to his current and future pilot group WILL come back to bite him!

porch monkey
22nd Nov 2010, 21:39
Like every other pilot body, it will only come back to bite him when you all STAND UNITED. As much as I wish it to be so, good luck getting that to happen.

breakfastburrito
22nd Nov 2010, 21:51
So, NZ pay rates on Australian tax + $85K (missed out on the 20K discount) for an A320 endorsement and in debt to their employer for 6 years.

As an aside I just noticed the ACP has been dropped to $64K, where it was previously ~85K. However $43K is now payable upfront.

I wonder how smart these pilot feel now. Chicks may dig the uniform, they don't dig poverty.

waren9
23rd Nov 2010, 01:02
Toolish

Where do you get that?

If that were true there would be no STBY's rostered in Dec. I know that this is not the case.

Fruet Mich
23rd Nov 2010, 21:09
Sid-star, I suggest you you read the entire post.

c) ANZA activities in New Zealand authorised by Australian
AOCs with ANZA privileges.

Section 28BD Compliance with civil aviation law

(1) The holder of an AOC must comply with all requirements of this
Act, the regulations and the Civil Aviation Orders that apply to the
holder.

(2) The holder of an Australian AOC with ANZA privileges must
comply with all requirements of the Civil Aviation Act 1990 of
New Zealand, and of the regulations and rules under that Act, that
apply to the holder in relation to the ANZA activities in New
Zealand authorised by the AOC.

Cypher
30th Nov 2010, 11:56
Anybody know if they are going to get an exemption to this rule from "Dear Director"??

It would seem to be quite clear that sending cadets to NZ with less than 500 hrs total and less than 100 ATO would be in clear violation of Rule 121.511...

The Kelpie
2nd Dec 2010, 00:00
Does anyone have a copy of the NZ employment contracts for Jetconnect or Jetstar?

I am not interested in the dollar values or any personal information so these can be obliterated I am more interested in how and on what basis salaries are calculated.

If they are authored in the same manner in which the cadet contract is then JQ and QF may very well have a huge problem coming their way.

I need copies of these contracts before I can publish any further information credibly.

Cheers

The Kelpie

The Kelpie
2nd Dec 2010, 00:05
Cypher

I have been lead to believe that JQ Cadets are going to undertake their 3 month line training at an Australian Base on New Zealand Salary supplemented by Living away allowances as they are strictly speaking NZ Based.

This line training will, I am told get them above the 100 hours as required by the NZ regs. Once they achieve this level of experience and are checked to line they will return to their NZ base.

The story after being checked to line is a a little more fuzzy but I am trying to find out more.

Cheers

The Kelpie

craka
2nd Dec 2010, 00:07
http://www.caa.govt.nz/rules/Exemptions/8_EXE_63.pdf

Not sure how this applies but looks like they need 500 hours total and 100 multi or turbine

The Kelpie
2nd Dec 2010, 01:02
Craka

That is OK for the Advanced Programme as all of the ACP cadets enrolled with over 500TT (also refer to my previous post).

Not quite sure how they are going to get the Ab-Initio guys up to those experience levels. Maybe they will get them to the end of the course and then just tell them to go away and find something themselves to build hours and come back and join the queue when you have the 500 hours. This sounds a familiar strategy!!

Maybe the Ab-initio guys were never intended to be based in NZ from the outset - just paid like New Zealanders!!

Cheers

The Kelpie

#1AHRS
3rd Dec 2010, 01:38
Thats about it, having gone through Ansett NZ and subsequently Jetconnect, I just got sick of being used as cheap labour by Australian companies. I have moved on.

NZ labour laws have always been way more "employer friendly" than Australia and with the exchange rate advantage... Its no wonder that we now have Jetconnect, Jetstar, Virgin (pacific) blue all over in NZ screwing the kiwi airline industry and taking the profits back to Aussie.

conflict alert
3rd Dec 2010, 10:47
ummm....well no one forces people to work....so if you all think your hard done by or the job pays weasel piss then leave/don't apply. Reality- there will always be someone that wants to take your place in the interests of self promotion.

smilingknife
11th Mar 2011, 07:03
Heres an idea!

How about we send that devious little twirp Westaway away and pay him in NZ dollars. Let's see how he likes that idea.