NZALPA Tiki Tour

[alpapilot]

Am I the only one who is wondering what we're going to get out of three (that's right THREE) senior P.O.s traipsing around the USA meeting people? Are there any tangible benefits to the association? Is/was there any cost-benefit analysis? Could the size and/scope of the delegation have been reduced by the use of modern or not so modern technology?

Just wondering :suspect:

[Artificial Horizon]

Must admit I thought exactly the same thing. I particulary like all the update emails detailing just what a good time everyone is having.:ugh::}

[RedUnderTheBed]

From what I hear the jet jocks aren't too happy about the goings on in ALPA either, and that was before the trip around the states. There's been some rumbling about the load on the leave bank too.

[Tarq57]

I'm not in the one of the pilot groups, but there are international trips taken by some of the various ATC reps, too. (In NZ the ATCA is a part of NZALPA.)

I've queried the value of the union fees from time to time, and have come to the conclusion that if we want our union to be able to best represent us, these networking/fact finding/etc trips might be important.

Just maybe.

When you look at the level of international collaboration that must be occurring, maybe behind the scenes, with the employer groups, getting the latest "goss" seems important to me.

I've no doubt that the order of employer collaboration and planning is likely to take a bit of step up in intensity; we're already seeing examples of it in the ANS side of things.

I have no objection if the reps happen to enjoy aspects of their "Tiki Tours/s" while they're at it, either. In fact, I sincerely hope that they do. Some of the other less "high profile" work some of 'em do is...um..tedious, which is probably partly why many of the rest of us aren't always prepared to step up and do some.

But if anyone has doubts about the value of these trips, or what goes on, a bit of research into the issues involved (which I've done, once or twice, peripherally) might be gratifying.

And if not, the issue can always be raised via the official ALPA channels.

[27/09]

I'm not sure this trip is much of a joy ride. This sort of trip is usually quite demanding.

While on the face of it it might seem to be a trip for the lads, I think very useful information is gained from these sorts of trips and valuable contacts made. Much more so than if they were to use teleconferencing etc.

Our pilot representatives need to be abreast of what's going on elsewhere. Personally I think it's money well spent.

[Shredder6]

They need to get problems sorted at home before any elected personnel go gallivanting around the world on feel good, international industrial relations missions.

Have had enough of endless salary declaration forms sent to me, subs bills sent for subs periods 2 1/2 years ago, no replies to emails, general lack of interest in any member that doesn't fly for AirNZ.

Millimeters from ending my membership of 11 years.

[blah blah blah]

The countless hours put in by these individuals, often at the expense of spending time with their families, goes without thanks or reward.

The current state of the leave bank would suggest that they are most definitely rewarded.

There are a number of issues that need to be sorted out at the moment such as:

ALPA supporting both sides of arguments that will inevitably have a winner and loser (eg retirement age) - a line in the sand needs to be drawn.

Leave bank days available not matching the number of days taken - ALPA says we may have to provide more days from our annual leave, but how about reducing the number of days worked and claimed?

Having non Air NZ / ATC ALPA members leading to poor support for those members (ie jetconnect / pac blue) due to the inevitable conflicts due to the fact that Air NZ and these other airlines are in DIRECT competition.

Blah

[Jack Sprat]

Shred - I am as far from an ANZ member as one could be and I have had very good service from NZALPA. Prompt replies to emails and phone calls and very reassuring advice from more than one of the people who gave after hours time for me. I have also contacted NZALPA on behalf of others at the start of their aviation career and received the same prompt and very useful assistance on difficult issues. I suggest that you ask yourself why your experience is as you describe.

[27/09]

B B B
ALPA supporting both sides of arguments that will inevitably have a winner and loser (eg retirement age) - a line in the sand needs to be drawn.



To some extent ALPA are on a hiding to nothing on this issue, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Remember also that it is unlawful in New Zealand to discriminate on age so they have to be careful how they tread on this issue.

Do you suppose that this very topic might have been one raised with other fellow organisations during the trip. Maybe , just maybe they will come home with some new perspectives on this.

Having non Air NZ / ATC ALPA members leading to poor support for those members (ie jetconnect / pac blue) due to the inevitable conflicts due to the fact that Air NZ and these other airlines are in DIRECT competition.



Sorry you lost me here and I cannot see for the life of me where any conflicts come from. It's quite standard all over the world for one pilot group to act for pilots from various companies in direct competition to each other. From what I have heard ALPA has been quite successful in helping Jetconnect/PacBlue pilots.

Aussie Guy

I have to agree with you. It's not often I get to agree with an Aussie. :ok:

[Sqwark2000]

Aussie Guy

I have to agree with you. It's not often I get to agree with an Aussie.

Ditto!

I think NZALPA do a great job, if you've got issues get on your council, attend your branch meetings/AGM's, sound your voice and hear first hand what the issues are that they face on a day-to-day basis....

S2K

[alpapilot]

Thanks for all the input guys but I think some are missing the point. For a start off I don't believe this is a 'holiday' and would much prefer these guys to be at home with their loved ones than tripping around the states.

For those of you on the periphery we've had a couple of newsletters from these guys detailing where they've been and who they've visited but not a whisper of what they've gained. About the only useful piece of info is that the interenet is good for cheap air fares - but I think I already knew that.

There is a lot of talk out there about leave bank, fee levels, etc. What this trip has cost us is 30 days off the Air NZ leave bank, fares and accommodation and, if I'm right, 10 days worth of Air NZ US allowances * 3! That's a pretty penny and it would make a big hole in a B747 captain's sub even if he's on instructor rates.

Can the costs have been reduced? What are we getting from them? And, lastly, could at least one of these guys have spent more time at home with his wife and kids?

[27/09]

Can the costs have been reduced? What are we getting from them? And, lastly, could at least one of these guys have spent more time at home with his wife and kids?



Questions which are better answered by going directly to your ALPA reps or ALPA headquarters rather than asking on a rumour network.

[RedUnderTheBed]

How right you are 27/09! :rolleyes: Clever boy. If I thought he'd get a straight answer I'd tell him the same.

Unfortunately Alpapilot probably thinks he'll get the same smoke and mirrors he & the rest of us have got over the last few years. Platitudes and BS! Same as the newsletters from America. Maybe AP is trying to get a response to all of us, not just him.

Stay in mushroom country if you want but some of us are a bit tired of the cosy relationship with the world's best airline and wonder who's side these guys are on. :(

[c100driver]

For those of you on the periphery we've had a couple of newsletters from these guys detailing where they've been and who they've visited but not a whisper of what they've gained. About the only useful piece of info is that the interenet is good for cheap air fares - but I think I already knew that.


Would it not be better to keep the intel gained from these meetings in the USA to the council or branch meetings so that the employers dont get an idea where they are going?

[alpapilot]

27/09.
I thought they could have told us what they'd learned when they sent us the newsletters. I was simply thinking aloud if others shared my concerns and had the same question marks about whether the time and cost was money well spent or not.

C100Driver.
No. The owners already know. They've read the newsletters or were told the purpose of the visit - 10 days is a long time off the roster - and will know better than our reps what the overseas contacts put out.

[flippersview]

Anyone who dedicates the amount of time and energy that the NZALPA Principal Officers are required to commit on my behalf as a member of the Assocaiation, deserve my full support. I am not too worried how they communicate, (it is just the writers personality in the end) just that they do.

I entrust them as elected officers to make judgement calls as they see fit and have done so for the last 20 years. The current team always asks for feedback via direct email contact in newsletters and this, rather than PPRUNE would be the forum to address a concern in the initial instance.

It is personally disappointing to see someone purporting to be a NZALPA member, cast dispersions upon the three pilots away working (and I hope taking a break) on our behalf.

I suggest if you are indeed a member, you should show up at the next Branch meeting and have a say. Better still, get involved if you can muster support via a long tested democratic process.

In closing, through NZALPA and its collective knowledge and strength (garnered also from meetings over the years with fellow IFALPA/USALPA members) we have done so much better to protect our conditions than our mates accross the Tasman.

I know we have certainly a better future than most through mutual support.:ok:

[Split Flap]

There is a lot of talk out there about leave bank, fee levels, etc. What this trip has cost us is 30 days off the Air NZ leave bank, fares and accommodation and, if I'm right, 10 days worth of Air NZ US allowances * 3! That's a pretty penny and it would make a big hole in a B747 captain's sub even if he's on instructor rates.

If you had READ the the information sent out by the guys on the trip, instead of going off half-cocked you would have read that AirNZ supplied the travel and the leave time so in fact it has cost the members F*ck all.

"Thank you also to Air New Zealand for their support of our work through facilitated time and travel."

Understand the subject before mouthing off.

[alpapilot]

I think I've stirred up more than I meant to here.

Flippersview. Blind faith in your elected representatives is unwise. Informed faith is a much better tactic. Blind faith would allow the likes of Chris Carter and Pansy Wong, etc, milk the tax payer and abuse their positions with impunity. That's why a free and enquiring press is a vital component of a democracy. That's partly why I started this thread, to ask questions which needed answering. I see in the latest bulletin from abroad some of those questions have been answered, i.e., What was achieved? Whether or not the achievement was worth the effort and cost is a matter for the beholder and will take some time to decide.

Going to a Branch meeting to air my views and ask questions would be OK if we had more of them. Northern branch just ran the first general meeting in how many years? From what I hear it was well attended. Some of us have to work as well - it's a 24/7 job. This is the only other outlet for an open forum. It's not ideal but its the best we've got.

As for Splitflap, maybe you should breathe more deeply before dispensing vitriol. This is what we were told in the first message:

"Air New Zealand has supported our work by facilitating five days for each of us and confirmed Premium Economy upgradeable to Business Premier Seats to and from the West Coast."

"Facilitating days off" means to me that they were given rostered 'O' days which are reclaimable from the leave bank. Are you saying they were company 'ADMIN' days? I also picked up that they were away for 14 days not 10; how were the remaining 9 funded? They ended up as far away as New York. They took the Executive Director's advice on which airlines to use and how to save money. Why save money if NZALPA wasn't picking up the tab? Who paid for the hotels and were they claiming standard allowances? The trip did not cost the union as little as you suggest so stop blowing smoke.

What is concerning is your attitude to Air NZ funding this trip in it's entirety (as lauded by you). IF Air New Zealand paid for the whole shebang then NZALPA has descended into the abyss the Men of Steel are saying it has - it has become a company union, even more so than the Feds.

Personally, I don't think it has but not only do you claim it has, you applaud it. Are you a company stooge or what?:=

[apache]

alpapilot,

unfortunately, being in business means that you HAVE to spend money occasionally.
I think it was GREAT that Air NZ fronted for free tickets to and from the west coast, and the union publicly acknowledges that fact.
In the newsletters, it states how great the contacts are that they have made and what issues were sorted out/raised.
NO WHERE does it state or imply that they were there on business for Air NZ! in fact, my understanding of it is that they were there to gain background knowledge and understanding of fights that have already been fought by other carriers/unions.
Forewarned is forearmed! You cannot put a price on information.
Like all businesses, and NZALPA IS a business, occasionally they have a year or two where costs outweigh income. Often they have an audit and a review of costs, and income and a restructure is normally the outcome.
At the northern branch meeting, which WAS well attended, the issue of leave bank days was raised, and discussed. Not only was it raised, but raised BY the union FOR discussion! they are aware of the imbalance, and are addressing it.
Not everything can be fixed overnight.
there are still a few fights which have to be fought, and probably through the courts, and this WILL cost money. But this is what the purpose of the union is - to fight for the rights and conditions of their members.
IF you want a union which fights for nothing and has millions of members' dollars in the bank "for a rainy day", then join an Aussie union!
I would much prefer that MY union be spending MY money on ensuring My rights and conditions, and looking to the future, as I wish to enjoy a good job for many years to come. If this is to be achieved by meeting people in THEIR backyard and getting their insights/hindsights or fighting in the courts to prove that we won't be bullied- then so be it!
having little money, or being slightly in debt is FAR FAR from being bankrupt!

[RedUnderTheBed]

Apache.

NZALPA is not a business. There are fundamental differences between businesses and unions. I am not going to explain the differences to you because if you don't understand now you never will. If, as you contend, NZALPA is a business then the people currently charged with running it have completely lost the plot. Neither am I going to explain the history of Air NZ providing FOC travel to union officials in the past; in brief, they haven't when the union has stood up to them.

I note your location is Sydney. I presume you are telling the truth and your comments are from the point of view of an Australian professional pilot.there are still a few fights which have to be fought, and probably through the courts, and this WILL cost money. But this is what the purpose of the union is - to fight for the rights and conditions of their members.

15 years ago in NZALPA we kicked out a team of guys who were willing to fight and spend money in the courts. That was the reason they got kicked out.

I would much prefer that MY union be spending MY money on ensuring My rights and conditions, and looking to the future, as I wish to enjoy a good job for many years to come.

Same here. I completely agree and I suspect Alpapilot does too. Unfortunately the current lot running NZALPA would prefer to cosy up to the employer than fight for members' rights and improve their conditions, eg., the recent contract 'rollover'!

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt but the likes of Splitflap and his cohorts would prefer that these issues are not aired. I was about to respond to his misleading post when Alpapilot beat me to it.

If you read Alpapilot's opening post he asks a few legitimate questions about a prolonged trip by three POs to the States. Instead of getting legitimate answers he gets a stack of posts defending the POs.

I wonder why.

There's no smoke without fire!

[alpapilot]

At the risk of stirring up a hornets' nest, word on the line is that the trip cost $25,000:ouch:

[belowMDA]

RedUnder, Yes you are partially correct that sometimes cases have to go to court. I suspect though, that Talbot et al. were kicked out because they frivolously took issues to court that could have been resolved if they had applied some common sense and reasoning. They, I feel, were more interested in the fight than actually looking after the pilot group. I see that like a phoenix he recently arose again but only to fight for his interest: protecting the over 65s. Thankfully sense prevailed.

That said I also feel that money seems to get spent these days that needn't. I fear that like city councils they see the money coming in regardless and so spend it like it won't stop or with little regard to those handing over their money in dues.

[RedUnderTheBed]

Below MDA.

I think you're believing the myths put out by the Powder Puffs, their supporters and successors regarding Talbot et al. Have you ever spoken to Mike or any of his henchmen regarding those times? I have, it's enlightening!

From the late 80s on Air NZ ran a concerted campaign to destroy ALPA. During the 1992 contract negotiations a load of pilots got a 'dropped' copy of an internal Air NZ memo entitled "The Strategy Document" or something like that. In it they outlined how they were to run down ALPA to its membership and build up ANZPS (The Scabs) as good negotiators, dealers, etc. Because of Mike, Trev Palin, Trev Lawson, Murray Campbell-Cree & a few others ALPA survived the onslaught. What happened in the mid 90s was that the company changed tack and instead of promoting the scabs they promoted the internal opposition of ALPA. Same strategy, different labels. We're now stuck with the Powder Puffs' successors which is why the relationship is good - the company have got what they wanted and that is why I voted for Mike and his mates in the last election, to get them out.

As far as 'frivolous' court cases are concerned. After the 92 contract the company continued it's all out assault on your conditions with constant contract breaches. Many of the cases arose from complaints by us ordinary members about breaches. On at least one occasion when a breach was raised Fred Douglas informed them that "we'll see you in court". What don't you get? Talbot wasn't responsible for the bad relations, they were. The Employment Contracts Act was an industrial law change that was highly significant as it changed the way contracts were interpreted. It used to be that the intentions of the negotiators was considered during a dispute. The ECA changed that to legalistic interpretation based on the words. Because of loose wording and 'permissive' clauses a lot of the time no one was sure what the contract meant and the company exploited that, forcing Mike to the courts to get a decision. Unfortunately, a lot of the time it was a decision Talbot et al didn't want.

Bringing us back to the present day; Do you think Mike would have allowed a contract to roll-over with the f**k up that post Matariki paxing is becoming and was known about at the time? Do you think Mike would have allowed a roll over with the seniority rights of B744 pilots hanging by a tenuous thread? Do you think Mike would have given away retirement leave for new entrants? I think not!

The current ALPA leadership is more concerned about it's good relations with the company and lunches at Fyfe's weekend hideaway on Waiheke than it is about fighting - really fighting - for our rights and conditions. I'd rather they did that than hob-knobbing with w**kers on the other side of the states.

Viva Mike Talbot!! (& Alpapilot for starting this thread).
:ugh: