BA Recruitment of non type rated pilots

[For the last time]

Do you guys think BA will ever recruit non type rated people again?

I'm starting to think the game has changed and that there will always be a steady stream of fresh faced type rated pilots coming out of the likes of Ryan and Easy, all with shiny type ratings and ready to go. Will they ever have to look outside the type rated request again?

I hope so cause otherwise I now have to jump to another airline before even getting a chance at BA.

Is there a chance that they won't get the number of "suitable" people they are after so will have to lower their requirements?

[potkettleblack]

I don't get your drift???

BA have hired non type rated in the past and will continue to do so. It fits recruits onto a fleet where it needs people at the time. You might be 737 rated but they could well need 320 so will be offered a new TR unless you want to stay in the hold pool and lose seniority.

Similarly when they hired directly onto longhaul a few years back people weren't exactly walking in the door with 777 or 744 ratings. Again it was a heavy TP or jet rating that got you in the door and in return a new type rating to put onto your licence courtesy of BA.

[non0]

They are actually thinking of getting more pilots and they do prefer cadet! So I don't know how many cadet have a good TR for BA, but I do not think a lot.

[DrJones]

My drift is, and it's only my opinion I think for the foreseeable furture the likes of BA will recruit type rated guys as there is probably a lot of guys with type ratings either unemployed or in places they don't want to be i.e the Sandpit.

Once they have run out of these guys then chances are they will recruit non type rated guys and there will probably be a stipulation on so many hours on an aircraft greater then so many tonnes etc.

[bigjarv]

Anyone got any more news on this? Numbers or qualification requirements if at all!

[nick14]

From the recruitment team on the December assessment they will only be hiring type rated pilots for the next 3 years. At least that's the plan.

N

[d105]

A quick look at their website indicates they're only looking for TR'd pilots at this point. Anybody have any information on where to send your cv. or who to contact? Cheers.

[bigjarv]

Surely at some point BA will have to broaden their net thou. With all the recruitment going on at the moment out in the sand and everywhere else, will many of the highest quality type rated people have already been cherry picked? Perhaps they will start to miss out on some good guys by searching so narrowly. Do I sound hopeful!?!?!

[UN614]

Thought I’d bring this back to the top.

With BA recruitment now in full swing, many will have been disappointed that the type rating requirement still stands. How long do you think this will continue, after all there are only so many rated pilots that will pass the selection. I had hoped that the opportunities on the 744 would have been available to non-rated drivers but they clearly think there will be enough applicants to meet their needs.

What is the consensus within BA about the direction of future recruitment?

Thanks

[BusDriverLHR]

Having spoken to some of the decision makers in BA, I can tell you they don't honestly know what they're going to do. A month ago there was going to be no external recruitment onto the 747 - now it's open. It's a very fluid situation and they change their minds VERY frequently. All I can say is keep an eye on the recruitment website and here. If the requirements change, you won't need to ask, someone will post here in a matter of minutes!
The opinions of most managers seem to be that there will most likely be recruitment of non-TR'd/military/SSPs again - when? - no idea.
They have even mentioned a pre-selected training scheme (they select you, you pay for your training), but again, these are just rumours.

Part of the issue is the length of time people can spend in the hold pool - 12 months. What they don't want to do is recruit loads of people into the hold pool and then find they don't have the training capacity to offer them jobs before they expire. Logically I'd suppose they'll exhaust the supply of TR'd applicants first before widening their net. As has been mentioned elsewhere, it may not take that long to exhaust the supply of TR'd 747 applicants - based on current selection success rates they'll need 300 applicants to get 30 successful ones.

It really is very complex, predicting what will happen is certainly beyond me!

[VJW]

I wonder why they only allow pilots to swim for 12 months. I have friends who have been and still are swimming in the air France pool for over 3 years!

[Kilo-club SNA]

I for one actually think that BA and similar airlines asking for a typerating is an advantage. The main driving force for any airline to provide good conditions is to retain staff. By recruiting qualified pilots from other airlines it puts pressure on those airlines to take make an effort in trying to retain their pilots.

Looking back over the past 20 years Pilots have lost out in a industry downturn but never really recovered lost ground during the good times and one of the reasons are that Pilots are so reluctant to move. Airlines are exceptionally poor at talent retention because they rarely have the need to actively prevent pilots from leaving.
I'm thinking this might change

[UN614]

I'm not sure I agree with you. For every Easy/Ryanair pilot that gets into BA they will be replaced by yet another cadet who is working for peanuts on a temporary contract having paid for their rating.

If BA and other operators started taking applications from non-rated pilots then it would allow pilots from smaller regional operators to move up the ladder, creating spaces at the bottom. The current way this industry is recruiting seems to allow only cadets and type rated pilots any progression.

In the past, BA has always welcomed all experienced pilots and has provided them with a diverse and capable workforce. It is a shame that BA seem to have given in to market forces and decided to exclude experienced non-rated pilots. Hopefully this will change very soon.

[Callsign Kilo]

If BA and other operators started taking applications from non-rated pilots then it would allow pilots from smaller regional operators to move up the ladder, creating spaces at the bottom. The current way this industry is recruiting seems to allow only cadets and type rated pilots any progression.

In the past, BA has always welcomed all experienced pilots and has provided them with a diverse and capable workforce. It is a shame that BA seem to have given in to market forces and decided to exclude experienced non-rated pilots. Hopefully this will change very soon.


They are doing this because the have to. The ''flying club" and money days of BA have departed. It's about recovery. Like every other business out there, commercial pressure reigns supreme. As unfair as that may be to those who do not meet the criteria; that's life. Just look at the performance of the airline over the last few years. The global recession, T5, rising fuel costs, cabin crew industrial action, the ash cloud and winter interruptions. I'm just glad to see that they are able to recruit. This time last year BA were in the sh1t pan!

[Desk-pilot]

I understood that in the past even if you joined BA with a 737 rating from say BMI you were still put through a full type rating course as a matter of policy - thus the decision whether to recruit someone with a Dash 8 rating cost no more to the airline - has this changed?

Also I would have thought that because BA owns its own simulators and trainers the marginal cost of using them or not using them is negligible i.e. they are costing money whether they are being used or not - so is the saving of recruiting a 737-800 driver from Ryan v a turboprop driver actually a hill of beans anyway?

I for one still long to fly for BA, I just feel my chance slipping away as I'm leapfrogged by people from Ryan and Easy. I can only hope that BA and others see merit in changing heir policy in the not too deistant policy. Salvation may in fact come from Easyjet if they decide to open up to us poor buggers with the twirly things on the wings!!

Frustrating,

Desk-pilot

[BusDriverLHR]

I understood that in the past even if you joined BA with a 737 rating from say BMI you were still put through a full type rating course as a matter of policy - thus the decision whether to recruit someone with a Dash 8 rating cost no more to the airline - has this changed?


Yes, rated guys are now planned to do a shortened course. Training capacity is a major issue for BA at the minute - not so much sim time, but actual trainers. Unfortunately, training new trainers uses a lot of training capacity! - bit of a catch 22 really.

Give it time, I imagine you're day will come, hopefully you won't have too long to wait.

[UN614]

I'm not sure it's worth debating the business case for recruiting type rated crews, there isn't much any of us can do about that after all.

I guess this second recruitment drive will be the test as 1500 plus type rated drivers have already applied and been unsuccessful so the number of people applying may not be as high this time round.

Fingers crossed.

[RB311]

Im sure it's been said before but it's worth repeating. By restricting the inflow to suitably type rated pilots only means (and this must be obvious after 1500 applied and they are still advertising) that they are missing out on people who don't have the right rating but possess the right skills to eventually be a BA commander.

Let people with the right stuff apply as well as those with the right rating!!

[samca]

I gays,

I´m a type rated pilot on Airbus A320 with jet experience in other aircrafts, ATPL licence and +2.500 hours.

Do you think I have any chance in BA?

Cheers

[toro]

Hola Samca...

its "Guys" not gays.....!!! But we do have a lot of Gay pilots in BA so don't despair.

YES you do have a chance if you are an EU resident, go for it.

Muchas suerte. Toro.

[wheelie my boeing]

"But we do have a lot of Gay pilots in BA so don't despair."

Erm, "a lot"? As a % what are we talking, 1%? Bit of a silly statement really isn't it.

[flyingcamel]

I'm. Alright. Jack.

[Nubboy]

FC, what is your point? As long as enough type rated people want to join up, then it's financial sense to focus your recruitment on them. ON the plus side each type rated person who joins, leaves a hole in a company further down the chain.

[San Expiry]

"leaves a hole in a company further down the chain" for another P2F'cadet' to jump into. The problem for many is that hole is also being filled by those with the 'right' type rating.

Meanwhile, those with the 'wrong' type rating remain in their turbo/dole queue.

[Juan Tugoh]

Meanwhile, those with the 'wrong' type rating remain in their turbo/dole queue.

It's a fair point. However, I don't see why that is BA's problem.

[samca]

But they say 500 hours on type... no? so type rating is not enough

gUys:p

[Wirbelsturm]

500 hours removes the requirement to base train thus allowing ZFT training.

[no sponsor]

Samca - if none of your 2500hrs are on the A320, then you unfortunately have to wait until BA changes its requirements. At the moment, you've got to have 500hrs on the A320 series aircraft. A TR with less than 500hrs is not sufficient.

In the past, BA changed its requirements from time to time, so I will imagine continued future recruitment will again see the criteria move.

[punkalouver]

Is it true that part of the interview process is that you are put in a room for an hour on a chair (perhaps with all stripes on the walls and nothing else in the room)and they monitor you to see what you do?

[drfaust]

Haha, honestly I do hope they do that!

[Tandemrotor]

In order for guys to understand what's going on here, and why BA are so determined to find type rated pilots, it is purely and simply as stated earlier in this thread:

Training Capacity!

As a result of the financial ills of the last 2-3 years, resulting in no recruitment, BA cut back markedly in the training departments. "No need yer see!"

Now the wheel has turned, the only game in town which provides the numbers of new joiners that BA is DESPERATE for, is short courses for folks who already have the type rating! They can't even train trainers at the same time, because they don't have the human resources!

So the problem is far more basic than the purely financial!

If the leader of the Red Arrows applied, or a Test Pilot/ Astronaut, without a TR, BA don't currently want to train him/her!

Will that change? Yes. But only when it is totally unavoidable.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Is it true that part of the interview process is that you are put in a room for an hour on a chair (perhaps with all stripes on the walls and nothing else in the room)and they monitor you to see what you do?

Yeah it's not too bad though. They give you a newspaper and a coffee and you just sit there wondering what happens next.

To be honest it's a bit like flying an airbus.

[Wirbelsturm]

For those of you who struggle to see why these little nasties 'creep up' on the brave BA management boys unawares, a little reasoning.

As has been stated earlier in this thread, by many probably more in the know than I, the training department was massacred in the cuts and the TC's and TFO's traing requirements trimmed and culled to cope only with LPC's, OPC'c annual checks and route checks with the occasional blind wanderer who came in nfrom the clam of LH to the chaos of SH. All was good (if a little grumbly) in the training world.

The CC part one started, the VCC's were actioned to...... nothing. Most of the CC turned up and the flight crew were cunningly utilised to, well, fly. The programme was 'expanded'. Great news everybody, I've got an Idea! If we can expand when there are tough times, said the scheduling people from their ivory tower, why not expand all year! Let us bring back the hulks from the desert, dust off those dodgy old 'G-BUS' things (Not G-BUSH though, that has, like its namesake, been a global embarassment on Beleusconi proportions) and get back to the good times.

So the scedules were re-written and the aircraft bones cast and lo and behold, some junior pencil pusher in Operation noticed that the monthly CAP (minimum required monthly contractual flying hours) was rapidly passing 100 hours! Bugger, said God (Stephen Riley). Inter departmental wrangling later someone from the Microsoft Excel department told God that if he recruited before the new financial year the Tax liability for the redundancy payments gone before would come out of Gods pocket. Bugger again said God.

So, recruitment began (like a swan, serene and calm on the surface, paddling like buggery underneath) and the first bunch were sought to alieviate the pressure. Not enough! The sceduling people wanted more, the Training department couldn't give more, there was no space at the mill and the system ground to a halt. Now the training department is full, the scheduling people keep wanting to boost the schedule (no bad thing but a 1% increase on LH schduling has a massive effect on pilots required hours, EASA FTL's anyone?)

They want the best, most expedient and efficient way to get people into to system. Until that source of experienced, qualified and adaptable people dries up the company will continue to exploit it. Be aware however that the future planning in BA is happening now and the ability to 'hedge' against shortages in personnel are being given almost as much creedence as fuel hedging! (almost but not quite, apparently we are not quite as volotile!)

Watch this space. I have heard rumours of the stalled Cadet scheme being resurrected and BA are as keen as always to maintain their position within the military as a 'safe bet'. Once all these things are on the table then possibly BA will look at instigating its normal recruitment criteria which specifies a licence, some experience and flight in an aircraft over a certain weight irrespective of type. It will come back, the only question is when?

Edit: Sorry fur thee speelink mistukes, was typing on a phone wif kak handed fungers.

[UN614]

Thanks Wirbelstrum, a very informative response. It would seem that BA are as bad at planning these things as the rest of the industry.

If training capacity is really the limiting factor then surely the next stage after type rated pilots is experienced non-rated who would not require base training and possibly need less line training?

SSP's will require the most training, including touch and go's and possibly more sectors line training. Not what a stretched training department really needs.

Keep the information coming guys. Very helpful.