Pilot Bonding Contracts - help please

[Kickingkatie]

Hello All

I am after some genuine advice from anyone who has actual experience of Pilot contracts that contain bonding arrangements for training. I am particularly looking at the area when an airline tries to impose this contract after you have left.

I have a situation with an airline and I will appreciate any advice you can give me regarding this or point me towards any people in the industry who have sucessfully overcome such a problem

Please post or PM me.

KK

[Bealzebub]

To be honest KK, you would probably be better paying for some qualified legal advice from somebody who specialises in employment and contract law. Most of what you will receive on here will vary from the "it's all slavery and illegal" shouters, to the "you should have read it before you signed it!" brigade.

Contracts are normally written to protect the seller or person drawing up the contract. You haven't said very much for anybody to give a particulary relevant response. It is not clear what your problem is? The only other advice I can offer is that solutions are often arrived at as a result of sensible negotiation and compromise. Rarely, if ever, are they as a result of wishful thinking.

[bfisk]

Where I work a modest training bond is placed on new hires. The bond is roughly about 2 months gross salary (ie about 3 months net with 33% tax) and is halved after 1 year, removed by the second year. It's far less than the cost of training, and there are some clauses for when it would not be enforcable, so I find it fair that the company wants to protect their investment. Of course there's no reduction in salary or any other costs associated with; and salary and perdiems are paid from day 1 on the course :)

[lostcomm]

I had a training bond when I left the airline 4 years ago (5 years or 28.000 EUR). When I left the airline after 3 years they wanted the money. I went to out to seek some legal help and it turned out that training bonds to start with are not legal in my country.(EU member state)
So one simple letter from a law firm was enough to put an end to the story.
I dont know how things are in the UK. You should go and seek some local legal help.

LC

[JJflyer]

A typer rating and training to follow is a big investment for a company. While a business expense and tax deductible especially if it is a loss (Pilot leaving) the time put into an individual cannot be measured in money. Again in many cases companies taking deliveries of new aircraft are given a certain number of type rating slots and thus it is either an extra with zero cost or calculated in the aircraft purchase price. In the latter case the cost of the rating is assimilated by the book and or real value of the aircraft.

The above in mind a good company does not have to worry about losing employees and thus their bonds are short and usually a formality. Take the bad companies that keep losing people even during recession, these have training bonds extending to 5 years and additional bonding for company and line training.

Before it gets mentioned here. I have never heard of someone jumping a bond having problems getting hired elsewhere. Usually jumping a bond a result of a new job.

[DB6]

Do you mean impose or enforce? Different things - I assume you mean enforce, in which case pay up. If you mean impose, tell them where to go.

[kick the tires]

KK - you are thinking of taking a job, signing a bond that you agree to and yet before any of this, you are looking at a way out??

Lets hope your prospective employer doesn't discover because if so you will, rightly, be shown the door!

Aviation is a small world, chief pilots talk to each other. If you break a bond, word spreads!

[Kickingkatie]

thanks for the replies, and some further info.

They are looking at enforcing the bond as I no longer work for that airline.

It does not relate to the type rating but line training, sims(opc/lpc), initial safety training, hotels, meals, petrol etc etc

It is in the UK and i have consulted a lot of legal advice/authorities & pilot associations. I have been informed that the Courts tend to favour the individual, so what I am after is people who either have knowledge on this subject (you cannot get enough angles) or those who have genuine experience, or know someone (our legal system relies heavily on previous cases).

Please don't judge me for trying to avoid payment of this as you don't know all the facts and pprune is not the place for them. I also don't want this post to turn into a debate of if these bonds are right or wrong.

[TheWanderer]

Not sure if it is of any help as this case happened in Germany and is mainly about type rating bonding.
The text (in German) of the German Federal Labour Court can be found here: 5-azr-339-92 (http://www.betriebsraete.de/bag-1994/5-azr-339-92.html)

The general content is that a type rating can be bonded maximum 1 year due to the special circumstances of a type rating as a type rating expires after 1 year and has to be renewed thereafter.

Since you are talking of line training, simulator and other initial courses, it might be of interest that all of these trainings and simulators are of a limited validity and expire after some time. Cost of hotel, petrol etc are associated with the training and might as such be part of the training costs, you don't happen to have simulator in your garage at home, don't you?
You might have been on duty travel by order of your company while being in line training and simulator, so who has to pay the expenses and per diems for duty travel, you or your former company?

Just a few thoughts, all the best to you.

[stuckgear]

did you depart on your terms or the employers terms ?

[mad_jock]

I know a few pilots go through what I think might be similar.

They start a job already type rated with a 3 month probation.

The company pays for them to go to the states for the sim for LPC.

Fire,SEP and all that stuff in Farnbourgh. In under a month.

And then its off to line training at which point things start slipping.

By the end of month 2 no line training done and your still on "training pay". Ops is a shabbles HR are useless and the CP is a prat.

Half way through month 3 another job comes up with a better operator your still under probation with 1 week notice by the company. You exercise your right under the probation and give 1 weeks notice and head off.

Lots of swearing when you hand your notice in and a couple of weeks later a ****ty legal worded letter comes through the door demanding the training costs 1800 sim, 1500 flights plus hotel, 1500 for recurrent training plus HOTAC.

From the pilots I know. In 1 case the pilot payed a fortune for a lawyer and was marginally better off not paying what they demanded. 2nd case thier sister who was a law student sent a letter saying just that they dispute the "bond" and would be happy to see them in court (but in legal terms). And the third one sent a letter himself which was a bit more rude but said the same thing but said he didn't own a house or a nice car and had 50k worth of debt and would be happy go bankrupt if they wanted to go to court.

2 of them payed for a stamp and that was it. It never got past the bullying letter stage and they eventually gave up after lots of threats of "ruining your career"

[Desk-pilot]

I guess it depends on the circumstances you found yourself in but my gut feel is that a bond is a perfectly reasonable requirment for a company about to invest upwards of £20 000 in an employee who might walk. My employer bonded me for three years and so I'm now out of my bond period anyway but in all honesty if I had left for a better job I would have paid it without question. Why? Well frankly I want to live my life with integrity and dignity and as a gentleman who can say he tried to 'do the right thing' by poeple and organisations.

But maybe that's an old fashioned view. I'd also like to add that I strongly oppose the creep of self sponsored type ratings into the industry so when an airline like Flybe in my case or BA or whoever pays a rating then I think paying off the bond is the right thing to do should I leave. That way they will continue to offer bonded type ratings rather than demanding £20k from everyone who joins them.

Dosn't integrity in life count for anything anymore?

Desk-pilot

[Phileas Fogg]

Katie,

As has been said you haven't provided much information such as how far in to a bond were you, did you leave by choice etc. However many years ago an employer airline, when relocating us from one base to a new base, paid estate agent, house removal etc. fees and it was 'proposed' we would be bonded for 2 years decreasing by 25% every 6 months, unfortunately, for them, the airline proposed this but neglected to get us to sign anything.

When I subsequently resigned some 10 months later the union backed me on the basis that I hadn't signed anything and I hadn't profited because I was moving home again, at my own expense, to take up my new job.

In your case you say it was for, including, operator line training, OPC, company safety training, these are operator specific, legally required, trainings, whilst you take the experience you cannot transfer operator line training, operator proficiency check etc. between operators, these are operator specific, the operator MUST provide these to you, OK you took however many months of your LPC remaining with you but your next employer, presuming you were moving on to operate the same aircraft type, probably renewed your LPC during your initial training, your previous LPC check might have been something that you never used after leaving.

So what did you gain out of this, what did you take away from the company that you could use thereafter, a few months of an LPC and a piece of paper of few regarding wet ditching etc, all of which have a limited shelf life before they need renewing. As for hotels, meals and petrol etc, is it your fault that the company couldn't provide your training at your designated base whereas you could have eaten and slept at your home?

Overall it depends on the scenario, i.e. did you quit weeks, months or years after receiving all this training but my argument would be that very little of this training can be, was, taken with you, you didn't utilise it after you had left thus you made no financial gain thereafter from being provided with this training.

[mad_jock]

I don't think that katie will have know there was a bond.

The usual way these things work is the company won't have provided a contract before the start of training and will have only produced it after you have left.

If you haven't signed a contract they don't have a leg to stand on.

And for future ref if its as I have described never start training until after you have a contract in your hand. An email with the T&C's is not good enough.

[Piltdown Man]

This is what unions are for. You are a member of BALPA aren't you? Just ring head office and you'll find someone to speak to. How do I know? You are not the only person to find themselves in this position and this is a common problem, one which BALPA had defended a few times in court.

PM

[Kickingkatie]

No I am not a member of balpa after years ago when the airline i worked for went under i changed my membership to unemployed but needed advice off them regarding that company, they refused to help as i was no longer a full member. Infact the bloke that was in charge of the legal team was extremely rude and very unhelpful.

[bfisk]

If you weren't a member, what did you expect? It's like insurance; you can't buy it after the damage is done. You gotta be in it for the long run.

[excrab]

Bfisk.

That wasn't what kk said. She was a Balpa member. The company went bust so she was unemployed but still a member and Balpa didn't help her, despite however many years and hundreds or thousands of pounds she might have paid them in the past. As her salary was zero her union dues would have been 2% of zero so they weren't interested.

Balpa are like an insurance company, IMHO, they will take your membership fees but attempt to wriggle out of providing anything that you thought they were going to.

Sorry to get of the topic...

[Avenger]

I agree it depends on circumstances and time served with the company. For example, If an individual whom may be type-rated but not "current" joins a company, does the OCC course, LPC and then some line training just to get " current" and then leaves without just cause after a couple of months, they probably don't have a leg to stand on and should pay the " bond" for those elements. On the other hand, if the person stayed for say 12 or 18 months, earned revenue for the company, then I believe it is a completely different situation and pen to reasonable debate.
The former examples, usually those that have another offer in the "wings" if they can get an LPC and recency deserve to pay as they are just making problems for those genuine candidates that come later.

[TLBird]

Hmm wise words ex crab. Where are BALPA when you need them most?
Sounds like you and I have been stung by the same tale?

KK you are not the only one to have had these unfortunate dealings with Balpa.

£350 will buy you an hour with a decent employment solicitor rather than the watching your money dissappear in Balpa fees.:(

[RJ100]

In our company we were disposing of our old fleet and getting all new aircraft. We were forced to sign a 2 year bond for a forced move! How enforceable will this bond be.
Many people failed to sign it, one has now submitted his resignation. The company have started sending threatening letters out to those who have yet to sign (Training complete).
BALPA have been useless!! They recommend we sign it! They hardly defended our position. BAPLA are only as good as your CC in our case all talk and spineless. This they have proved over several poor recommendations over the past few years!

RJ.

[parabellum]

RJ100 I'm surprised your company didn't make signing the bond a condition of starting the type conversion.

A company I once worked for allowed us to complete ground school and simulator but we had to sign our new contracts before they let us do the aircraft bit which we needed for licence endoresement!

KK - you should see a lawyer who specialises in contracts.

[DrJones]

RJ - What would have been the outcome if none of you guys signed the bond - surley they cant sack you (unfair dismissal etc) and if they did who would fly their planes ?

I think in some ways some of the Company's are worried when the upturn happens they are going to loose most of their work force - I think this bond their trying to enforce is one way to prevent this from happening!

[any name will do]

To add to the discussion on Bonds and to get off BALPA bashing. I currently work for a european airline. I was out of work for 5 months although still current on type. I joined this company as It was that or stay unemployed. The salary is way below market rates. The company insisted on signing a 5 year bond for approximately £12000 none reducing. As i said I was already type rated with experience. I had a standard sim check OPC/LPC and two weeks of ground school (standard DGoods, emerg etc etc) then standard line training on revenue flights (are there any other). I have worked for this company for nine months now and am considering a move to another company for a better salary. I know the company would try to enforce this bond. My feelings are the company is trying to take advantage of the weak position pilots where in last year (some still are) to employ guys on low salarys and try to keep them on these salarys when the market improves. What does everyone else think?:*

[Abbey Road]

any name will do,

If they take legal action against you, you are stuffed - you accepted the deal on that basis. You do not have a leg to stand on. The courts are all about the letter of the law, they are not about justice or fairness. Sorry, but bad luck.

[boredcounter]

Sorry to sound harsh if I do, I do not mean to.

You chose to join a company after 5 months as a 'type current' Pilot. If you left it one more month, would you still be 'current'?

You signed a 60 month, non reducing financial agreement, to cover the employers training costs, and I presume, remained 'Type Rated' as a result.

What is the comparison between unemployment and the salary you have drawn for 9 months?

I think, as a groundie here, you may have played a card to keep current, now you want to leave, it is all unfair?

Had you lost your rating, how much would it cost you to get it back?

[Bealzebub]

The company insisted on signing a 5 year bond for approximately £12000 none reducing. Good for them, but it only became a contract when you added your signature, thereby agreeing to the terms contained within.

I have worked for this company for nine months now and am considering a move to another company for a better salary. That happens, and sounds quite reasonable and understandable.

I know the company would try to enforce this bond.

Not if you pay them what you contractually agreed to. There would be nothing to enforce. They or you might grumble, but since you fulfilled the terms of the contract, that would be the end of it.

What does everyone else think? Like them or loathe them, you knew the terms you were entering into when you signed up. If the terms were bad, then you will presumably learn from the experience.

If it were me I would work out how long it will take me to write off the contract break sum based on my new improved salary and move on. Aviation is a small world, and reputations are important. They can worry about theirs, but I want a good reference. I want to avoid the stress, cost and uncertainty of protracted legal wrangles. I want to look forward to an improvement in my life.

That is what I would do, but I can't tell other people what they should do.