EC120

[nellycopter]

Do any of you fly the 120 ? i will be upgrading from my lovely little r44 raven 2 which has given me many happy flying hours to a ec120,
are they as nice as everyone says ?
maintenance say they are a doddle to work on (although there is the eurocopter parts / service which might not be the best)
but other than that ???

nelly

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

having a number of hours on the EC 120 including G-LHMS I would avoid them at all cost's, they are great for 1 or 2 people to cruise around in but they struggle to get off the ground with 5 on board and that's out of an airfield you will not get out of a small private site with one if you are heavy.

The servicing is not cheap you get a number of small services then a very expensive one so it works out the same as any other small turbine heli, except spare parts are a nightmare to get hold of. The one I look after recently spent 6 weeks on the ground waiting for spare parts.

I would wait for the 66 to come out or look at a late model jetranger instead or if you can afford one a 350

CB

[jemax]

I never really had a performance problem with the 120, found them a very nice aircraft to fly, very comfortable with a good view for pax and a useful size boot and good and stable in strong/messy winds.

There is however a big difference in weight between models. IIRC floats and VIP seats/soundproofing would add about 130kg versus and ex utility spec aircraft I used to fly which had seats added after original order. This equates to over an hours fuel or an extra person and a bit. So take a good look at the Gross Weight. Floats and bottles alone was, I think about 70kg.

I was a big fan, used them for most purposes. Didn't go wrong much, but when they did EC could be slow with support.

[John R81]

I have run one for a couple of years. I hold R44 (trained on that) and EC120 ticket. I spent some months looking at everything from used jet-box, Hughes 500, an R44, an older single Squirrel. Did dream about an EC130 but it is sooooo ugly from the front.

No comparison for me; I bought a 2000 EC120. I did fit floats (you can do this with pilot removable bags - extra 36kg fuel when you take them off. I needed these for commercial work over water but I would otherwise have left them off and saved the weight.

The EC120 I have taken from South UK to the Scottish Highlands (and back) in a weekend - 4 adults and baggage. No-one complained getting out. And 5 people from South England to the Cholmondley Pagent of Power. I don't have a problem with power - just keep the weight within limits.

Fantastic views from any seat (back of a jet ranger is pokey and a Hughes 500... need I say more?). It is a great aircraft; mine has been very dependable and easy to maintain. Smooth in flight, looks great, very popular with passengers (and me). It also attracts a good deal of commercial work - wedding transfers are very popular!

I agree some have found EC slow with parts - touch wood it has not yet happened to me in a way that stopped the aircraft. And I have seen R44's taking significant cumulative hanger time; parts are faster but services take longer and you need parts more often. An old jet-box will also cost significantly more to service, I think, as would a Squirrel.

You have to watch weight & balance on all machines. The EC120 does not have the power of a twin squirrel or an EC130 - but it doesn't have the cost to buy or service either. If the machine is right for what you wish to use her for then go for it. If you want "Hot / High / Heavy" then you need more money and a Squirrel, or you want a ..... etc.... etc.... etc.

[Hughes500]

Quite frankly if you want to stay eurocopter get a gazelle ( EC120 was its replacement) Gazelle is faster doesnt have the w&B issue of the EC120 and will get off the ground with a good payload and way cheaper and looks better !

[HeliPilot1]

As a private pilot, you can do no better than the EC120. I don’t understand the love/hate relationship with this girl but I logged 300hrs over 2 years with nothing but fond memories. She is fast, smooth and sexy plus she had room for all of my wife’s stuff (oh yes, a lot of stuff). Being in Canada, Eurocopter was very responsive so I cannot comment about Europe. As for the power and weight/balance, full fuel offers you 3:45min in the air. Manage your fuel load and you can comfortably take 4 passengers without stress.

[s1lverback]

I fly John's EC120 out of Redhill and have to agree with his comments...you need to plan your load and fuel accordingly.
I have flown H500s and love them for agility, power, etc., but I love the 120 equally for its speed, stability, visibility for pax, etc....yes you can't take 5 huge blokes with gear in it like a gazelle but then most of the time its just me and a few friends or family out for a jolly :ok:
I have taken 4 'heavies' in her with enough fuel for 2 hours, but (due to my weight) they all had to sit in the back.
Great aircraft IMHO and I would love to own one like her.

[toptobottom]

This is an interesting thread for me because I'm in exactly the same position; looking to move to a 120 in the Spring. As a dedicated petrol head, I generally prefer speed and handling over comfort, but in this case the benefits of the 120 outweigh the disadvantages. I've spoken to several owners and none of them have any regrets. C of G was an issue in the early models, with the battery

I can't agree with the Gazelle argument though - it's a completely different ship. As a petrol head I love it, even though the stretch is still cramped in the back and can be a pain to fly, but it's no comparison to the 120. Also, check out insurance. Haywards' quote was ridiculous for a G reg Gazelle, asking for a zillion hours on type, even more on turbines and a safety pilot at all times!!! There have been a lot of gazelle accidents...

TTB

[jemax]

Two of our machines had the weight and balance mod, which basically put about 15kg in the tail boom and made all the C of G issues go away if you were in weight you were in limits. The penalty is increasing the max all up a little. Well worth it.

[r44guy]

I am also doing some research, trying to decide if an EC120 would be a good replacement for the R44 Raven 2 that I am flying for a company currently. I hope some of you with EC120 experience can help me out a little. Sorry the post is a little long winded, I'm just weighing some different options and pros/cons, as well as seeking some EC120 specific information. My thoughts and questions regarding the EC120 are at the bottom of my post if you want to skip down there. ;)

Typically I am flying with 1 or 2 passengers. Primary use is moving people, aerial survey and lots of off-airport landings. Flight time is 250-300 hours per year. Often times we are flying engineers and equipment operators, and they all need to be able to see outside well and look at/pass around aerial maps. Generally this means the boss is up front with me, pointing at what he wants to see while the rear seat passengers are trying to see the same thing. Landing elevations are from 900ft MSL to 3000ft MSL, nothing high altitude but the summers are very hot and humid. Most days we cover at least 250NM. 200NM or more straight line flying with lots of low and slow surveying. Anywhere from 3 - 6 hours of flight time. The terrain in the coal fields is steep and rugged, creating loads of turbulence when the wind picks up.

Our Raven 2 has worked well most of the time, but it has it's downfalls.
- While it is generally quicker than a 206 b series, an extra 20-30 knots would be very welcome on the 100NM+ flights to/from home.
- Good visibility, but the seats are uncomfortable for longer periods, and the rear seats are terrible for most grown men with boots on.
- Does not handle turbulence well. Stronger winds over flatter area is no problem, but in rugged terrain it is a miserable ride. The R44 itself is not the smoothest ride anyway, no matter how well the last track and balance session was.
- Our maintenance shop is 130NM away and bringing it in for things such as a 50 hour oil change can be a pain. The helicopter is stored inside but without climate control, and the belts always expand/contract with the weather and seem to need adjusting frequently.
- When landing on uneven surfaces, the cabin often distorts enough the some of the doors are difficult to latch unless you push in from the outside while turning the latch.
- We almost always top off the fuel tanks as it is common to be in the air for 2 - 2.5 hours. With full fuel it is a great 2 person aircraft, and does 'okay' with three. There are several times when we have 4 people in the helicopter and about 1.5 hours of fuel, and room for another passenger under similar conditions would be very ideal.

---
So I have looked at numbers for other comparable aircraft. R66, MD 500, 206 B and L series, 407, etc.

I really don't have a lot of interest in the R66. It looks to have the same uncomfortable seats, off-center t/r pedals, lack of rear leg room, only 5-10 knot cruise speed increase. The ride will be about the same if not worse due to the taller m/r mast. I suspect it will handle equally poor in high wind and rugger terrain. Hover performance is suppose to be pretty good, but that is the only real good thing I see about it. It is probably a solid four seater, although not so comfortably. While the main design is very much "R44", it is too new for me to have a lot of interest in. A lot of the VIPs in the company don't like the R44 as it is, because they say it just doesn't feel "significant enough".

The MD500 is quick, maneuverable, and handles turbulence well. But no luggage, shorter range, only four people in the aircraft in a reasonable setup. The back seat is terrible, and visibility from the back is not good either.

A 206 b series equipped with a/c (a must for us) looks like it would have less usable load than the R44 with full fuel. Back seat visibility is not good with the bulk head, and rear seat head room is not ideal. Cruise speed is equal to the R44 if not slower. The ride is a little smoother, but generally all you seem to be gaining is cost. The L series might be a little quicker, but even more expensive, and the rear seat would be very disconnected from the front for what we do. I haven't flown the L series but I'm thinking that it still isn't going to handle turbulence as well as a fully articulated system does.

The 407 would be my ideal helicopter for them, with a few exceptions. Fast, comfortable, loads of power, good parts/service availability. The negative is of course the disconnect of the rear passengers from the front and lack for forward visibility from the rear. If my boss had a desire to frequently haul around 5-6 people this would probably be an easy sale, but due to the way we normally use the helicopter it probably doesn't make sense.
---

Based on the information I have gathered so far, the EC120 looks like a pretty good fit for most of what we do. With better hover performance it would be great (at least on paper). Price on a fairly low time used ship is very reasonable, operating cost is very reasonable as well (roughly twice of the R44 according to some surveys). I am told that the ship will cruise at 120 knots with a night sun and flir unit, and should cruise at 125-135 knots clean with a couple of occupants. Does that sound accurate? That would shave 12-15 minutes off of the first and last leg of our typical day. It should also help to bridge the gap between a long trip in the helicopter and a ridiculously short trip in their Premier jet, which requires a lot more planning. The aircraft has a good range and good loiter time. Visibility looks to be great from front and the elevated rear seats. The fenestron should provide a little extra security when passengers load/unload with the rotors turning, and be a little less prone to damage from brush in unprepared landing sites. Typical useful load with full fuel seems to be about 100 lbs over our R44. What that looks like to me is a good three seater, an okay four seater and the occasional five seater if you leave some fuel behind.


So on to the concerns about the EC120...
Hover performance doesn't look so good, it isn't a hot/high/heavy machine. At gross weight on a warm day it isn't going to be impressive. The R44 numbers are a little better, but there is no reason I need to have four people and a lot of fuel on board when I'm landing in a confined area above 3000ft on a hot/humid day. There are times and conditions when I have to say no to landing in the R44 due to the nature of an LZ, and it looks like the EC120 would put us in that same boat. The higher fuel burn is an advantage as it would shed weight quicker though.

Service and parts availability could be problematic. I have heard from various mechanics that Eurocopter support is less than ideal and it can be difficult to get your hands on parts. Have others in the US found this to be a problem? Our helicopter is not a revenue machine, but my boss (like anyone) does not like a lot of down time.

I haven't found much information inspection times, overhauls or life limited parts. The most I have seen is 100/500/1500 hr and a 12 year inspection. An aircraft that we may look at is a 2001 with roughly 2000 hours. Can anyone tell me what the upcoming maintenance on a 2000 hour ship is going to look like?

I appreciate any more insight you guys may have to offer. :ok:

[puntosaurus]

A good Raven II will match and often beat a 120 for speed. In my (floated) experience anything over 100kt in a 120 is feels like a strain and over 120Kt is not really feasible.

Other than that I'd agree with most of your analysis. If the R44 is tight for carrying ability in the role you use it for, then it's time to trade up. And by trading up you will certainly get clear of the Robinson snobbery, which may not be justified but is certainly a factor.

The Longranger is a beautiful machine to fly, very smooth and comfortable, and great value, but if having everyone in the same cabin and looking at the same things is a priority then maybe not the machine for you.

[norunway]

Sounds like you need a squirrel great visibility from both front and rear seats,excellent HOGE performance,smooth comfortable ride,120kt-130kt cruise,range,seats six comfortably,low maintenance the list goes on. It will do everything the 407 does better and more.

[claudia]

the machine for you must be an as350 it meets all your requirements

[HillerBee]

An EC120 will cruise at 120kts without any problem. The max I got out of one was 126kts. A R44 is no match for an EC120.

[John R81]

I regularly hit 120 3-up.

Cost is less than AS350 - if you don't need the extra power why pay?

I have not seen anything with cabin comfort of the EC120 at a sensible price

3-up, without floats - full fuel load

I have recently had 4-up from Surrey to Western Highlands out Saturday and back Sunday. No complaints from any seat.

[ChippyChop]

Hey Nelly are you serious about buying a 120 or are you just "tire kicking" as my old man would say. In a different post you asked about the sale of a certain 120 to which I PMed you with my phone number but still have not heard from you.

Chippy

[ReverseFlight]

The EC120 is sweet to fly and has good auto characteristics. You will be aware that it is under powered when fully loaded on a hot day but the thing I would hate as an owner are the cracked doors. All the EC120s I have come across have cracked doors due to its overhang when open - a design problem which you can't fix.

[hands_on123]

Is it true that the EC120 has lead weights in the tailboom for weight and balance purposes?.

I heard it was originally designed as a miltary aircraft, and in order to get the C of G working for civil use they had to add weights, hence the payload issues people have with it.

Is this true?

[HillerBee]

Yes, it can have extra weight in the tailboom.

[blackdog7]

Have about 6 years with the 120.

You are power limited in weather above 25C so you have to manage your fuel vs. load requirements.
That said, low fuel and 3 pax at 6500' in the summer is not a problem.

No problems with door cracks.

Wt and Balance has never been an issue.

EC support has always been acceptable.

Cruises nicely at 120 knots.

Offers energy attenuating seats, crashworthy structure, crashworthy fuel system, excellent visibility, excellent bagage capacity.
Most of the better pilots out there would of course never need these safety features........

100 hr. to 100 hr. inspections with no glitches.

Slighly underpowered, but... have often needed more power in B3's also!

Oh - and you can still walk after flying the machine for 7 hrs. Very comfy seats.

BD

[JimEli]

>
Is it true that the EC120 has lead weights in the tailboom for weight and balance purposes?.

I heard it was originally designed as a miltary aircraft, and in order to get the C of G working for civil use they had to add weights, hence the payload issues people have with it.

Is this true?
<

Probably require the lead after removing the guns from the tailboom.

[John R81]

Yes it has extra weights in the tail boom. Without it the C of G is too far fwd so 2 x 90kg guys up front and two lady pax means you are in trouble. With the battery moved back plus the lead = no problem.

The tail boom weights are not that heavy so don't affect pax capacity and only small fuel drop. Way out there at the back of the boom they have the desired effect through the arm not mass.

Mine is floated and empty weight is 1126kg, MTOW 1715kg so you do the math. She can hold 315kg fuel, 5 people and lots of luggage - just not all at the same time. Take the floats off = 36kg more payload!

[Arrrj]

G'day John (and others), this is a very interesting read for me, as I am (too) looking to upgrade my R44 Raven II (great machine) for something that can take 4 adults (2 x 90kg and 2 x 70kg), 2 sets of golf sticks, and overnight bags & (!) full fuel. We live in Australia...it's a big place.

I have been lucky enough to fly the new R66 (it is very nice). And have flown quite a lot of hours in EC120B, and flown Jetrangers / Squirrels and (out of my price range) A109 Grand.

My thoughts for a new aquistion have narrowed to EC120B, AS350B2 (B3, sure, if the stock market goes up dramatically !) or R66. But of course, all of these machines have positives & negatives.

The EC120B is really well made, great detail and superb to fly. It is (or the one I flew ? It was new - 2 years ago.) underpowered, and has tail rotor authority problems - or my right leg is simply not long enough on approach to a hover ?!

Squirrels are fantastic workhorses - but agricultural...even with the exec fitout.

R66 - unproven, cool to fly (even for the 20 minutes or so), doesn't look as cool as EC120B.

My pick would be the EC120 (C ?) - I have read elsewhere that EC have listened to the complaints about the 120B and will introduce a new version with more power and a FADEC. Does anyone have any details on that ?

Anyway - great reading - I wish the choice was a bit clearer or easier !

Any good information would be greatly appreciated.

Arrrj :ok:

[Arrrj]

PS - the R66 has MUCH better seating in the front (seems like a lounge chair compared to my Raven II) and more room in the back. It's not a EC120B, but (from my initial calcs) will carry more kgs and burn less fuel. I would certainly be considering the R66 for your needs.

[toptobottom]

I'm seriously in the market for a 120 now :eek:

There are several machines coming up for the 12 year inspection; anyone got any experiences of that? What is a typical cost? Ditto the 15 year inspection on the engine?

John - I'll PM you for a beer and pick your brains :ok:
TTB

[J&K]

I think the first 120's were produced in 1999 (may heve been '98), so 2011 is the first year any will be due a 12 year, so my guess is that there is very little experience of 12yr insp's out there.

I would guess at a 15yr o/h on an Arrius 2F to be somewhere in the region of 200k euros, going from experience of Arrius 1's and Arriels. Not to mention the 6mth TAT.:ugh:

[John R81]

The next major service point I have reached on my 120:

500 hr inspection £8,450

Several minor anti-corrosion treatments undertaken at the same time, the swashplate re-shimmed, and I swapped one of the radios. (additional cost to above)


Then igniter box failed - £4,806 to replace, done in 2 days.

She is running absolutely smoothly. The current known problems remain:

1. An over-wound clock! (perils of self-fly hire). Need to take out and release the spring, then re-install
2. Occasional fuse-pop on the strobe - will have this investigated for frayed wire then replace if needed
3. Blade tape used to denote the "blue" rotor has come off (replace)

John

[John R81]

Arrj

I don't disagree with underpowered - then I think my R63AMG is underpowered, and I could do with some more grunt in the Subaru Imprezza STI. These are the limitations, we just work within them.

I don't agree the "lack of tail authority" point, though I did feel the same as you when I first converted from R44. It took time for me to get used to the amount of Right pedal, and the idea that unlike the R44 I needed to be ahead of what the aircraft was about to do, not be reacting to what it had started doing. It took me a short time but (and I am touching wood here, with crossed fingers) I haven't been caught out for quite some time.

One thing I do practice, having read of some accidents where the machine has yawed "uncontrollably" and then crashed, is maintaining a level attitude in yaw, and "travelling yaw" (spinning the machine whilst either moving along a straight path or moving around a hover square) so that if this happens to me I am more likely to maintain a level attitude whilst I keep the right foot in to stop the yaw. Not needed it yet, but it is so much fun to practice!

Anyway - LPC shortly with Puntasaurus so he can tell me how poor my skills have become.

[toptobottom]

John - did you get my PM? I've lost your mobile number...

[John R81]

TTB -PM answered

[as350nut]

Nellycopter
Having owned 5 r44 and 3 as350 and been in your position, I would suggest finding a nice 1990's era B or BA, for private work you don't need more power of the B2/3, but a huge increase on the ec120 which has scared me a number of times even with four people and full tanks. You should be able to find one, give it, new paint and interior to your standard and not pay more for it than a ec120.

[claudia]

Nellycopter. I think most people agee that the ec120 is the best in the class, however only buy one if you can afford a massive financial hit from turbomeca. It will take more to overhaul / calender inspect that engine than a good complete low time H500 or B206 helicopter will cost to buy outright. ! or even a new r44 !

[John R81]

I agree with J&K - there seems to be little experience of an overhaul as yet. I am sure it won't be cheap (what jet turbine is cheap to overhaul?) but I certainly would hesitate to guess what the cost will be based on what a different power plant costs. As an owner, I am finding it difficult to get accurate information on a price and so have stayed silent on this cost. Some may know more than me; but as the laws of lible apply equally to internet postings then should posted information not be accurate, and should it lead to Eurocopter losing a sale because people were scarred-off buying their machine, then things could get expensive.

This link explains things simply - apologies to anyone who knew all this already.

Basic UK libel law for idiots by Adam Porter (http://www.urban75.org/info/libel.html)

You will appreciate that though this particular article says potential damage to reputation, and hence potential loss and compensation, would likely be lower for internet postings as the number of people seeing them would be small, things may be different for us posting here. Possibly, the number of potential EC120 customers (new or secondhand) reading a PPrune Roterheads posting would be larger than the number reading one of the national Newspapers!

So our defence, in these postings, must be that we are accurate (stating truth) where we cite information that [somebody] may consider to be damaging to their financial interests.

What I have posted so far is data from actual bills (it is accurate). I also know for sure that the TBO for the Arrius 2F fitted to Eurocoters differs depending on the configuration that you have. I have the longer-lifed version and the TBO for me is 15 yrs or 3000 hrs. I won't make the hours limit, so April 2015 it is then.

What any potential owner needs to do with any machine is to factor into their calcualtions of the cost of ownership any infrequent bills like this. It is no different for a Robinson rebuild, or for lifed-blades, turbines, etc. Cheaper 50 / 100 / 500 hr servicing over 15 years plus more expensive items later in life may or may not be cheaper in the long-run. Only you, the potential purchasor, can make your calculations and your decisions.

I bought the machine 3 years back at a significant discount to "new" price (about -600k) and that discount together with the lower cost of servicing provides a fund from which to meet (later) expenses. If I sell the machine in the meantime [no current intention] that pot is mine, offsetting any reduction in sale price [as component values are lower] compared to purchase cost.

As I say, I haven't yet got an indication of the cost for overhaul or an idea of how long it will take, or whether I can get a swap / pay to bring my old engine up to reconditioned standard; but as soon as I do I will post.

[claudia]

Goodness I thought this was a thread on the ec 120 not a law lecture. Hope Eurocopter don t sue me for praising the 120 ! Yes it is important to be factual as i have also been. Another fact is that anyone owning a turbomeca engine with four years to run will be getting a very very big bill in 2015 if not sooner and no options, you must deal with turbomeca uk. - not even aloud to go to America. In contrast with the rolls royce model 250 you have a choice of dozens of overhaul shops to negotiate with. A recent 1750 hour inspection on one of my RR 250 turbines cost £24k including replacement of two wheels.-fact ! and no calender life.

[Brilliant Stuff]

As an aside ECUK have two new EC120 at Oxford at the moment, I wonder who is buying those?

When does the timer start? From the time the aircraft leaves the factory or when first registered or when first sold?

I am just thinking of that new AS365 which ECUK I am told they still have stored away fro a long while now.

[John R81]

Bit of a raw nerve there. You can get ointment for that:ok:

[Rigidhead]

Hello Brilliantstuff,

Calendar inspection items have their time counted from the Date of Manufacture on the Data Plate.

Rigidhead

[Bell_Flyer]

Squirrels are fantastic workhorses - but agricultural...even with the exec fitout

Agricultural? Have you seen the work that is done by the fitout shop in Caloundra, Qld? Have you seen Dymock's B2? BMW Nappa leather; hand stitched joints and so on. You must have awfully high standards above and beyond what Bentley do to their cars... IMHO.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Thank you Rigidhead.

[nigelh]

If you want to be raped go for the french engine !! After my experience i would not own a french engined heli if you gave it to me . Any major problem will cost you the price of a very nice 500 or 206 ...crazy !!!
I would by an AS 350 LTS101 . All the best of the french helicopter without the french engine .....perfect . ( incl 15% fuel saving , more power and a fraction of the maintenance cost )

[claudia]

nigelh. well said ,agree with you 100% obviously you have had the french engine EXPERIENCE just like myself, others will learn the hard way soon !! but be carefull it is illegal to disclose these facts , might ruin the sale of someone's ec120. My solution was similair to your idea, sold my single squirrel and bought a twin squirrel with allison engines. now i have no turbomeca, still in a squirrel which i love, an autopilot, dual hydraulics, sas, force trim, etc.and no scary bills. plus money left over ! and the safety and security of being in a twin.

[nigelh]

I intend to get another 350 B2 ( is it a D with the 101 engine ?) at some point but waiting to find the right timex engine machine to do it with . Never ever ever turbomeca again thats a PROMISE !!!!!! Just about to pick up a 500C which will be fun for the summer ..but its not a squirrel ....
ps have both your engines had containment ring fitted ?? Last fly date is november and then you are GROUNDED !!!!! ( and you will then be in a queue with hundreds of 109,s, 206,s , 500,s, 355,s to name just a few )

[claudia]

nigelh. yes, had a 500c for a long time back in the ninetys, great fun machine, you will enjoy it . hopefully we both should have a good summers flying without the turbomeca worry. !!

[Arrrj]

G'day John,

Apologies for the delayed thanks for your reply - I have been flying :ok: !

I understand your comments about power (although I am not sure I agree - I need to fly one for some more hours - it needs to be able to do what I want), and I agree with the comments about tail rotor authority - you do just need to think a bit in advance. Again, more hours on the 120 and I will be able to make a better decision.

Bell Flyer - 14th March

Yep, I have seen the Dymocks machine (the old one, currently for sale at Eurocopter) and it's "nice". I have also seen the coolest fitout of a new B3 (black and yellow on the outside), so YES you are correct, you can make the interior look fantastic...but outside ?

I'm getting my endorsement on the R66 next week...then I will have even more to consider. For those interested, I shall continue with the dialogue. For the others, apologies for the boring decision making process !

Arrrj

[rfonseca]

Dear All,

I would need your advise. I have been offered a ec 120, 1999, with 3200 tt and a Bo 105 1983 4000+ tt, well maintained, with lots of spare parts. Similar prices. The bo is a little less expensive. Sometimes I fly to windy and confined areas. Which one you recommend I chose?

Tks in advance
Ramon

[ILblog]

Hi

Since I fly EC120 regulary I have noticed, that the machine has some vibration, if CG is inits forward li it. Especially if I fly alone.

Is there anyone, who could send me link for STC that will put this ballast in tail in order to companesate for this?

[wes120b]

toptobottom. I fly serial# 1078 in the US. We are either the first or second 12 year on the east coast and probably the country coming up in December. Baltimore City PD may have the first one. I'm told the 12 year is about 300 manhours and depending on how much must be replaced on the airframe, I think you are looking at anywhere from $100k to $200k. We just finished a 500 hour on ours and she has never flown better.

[HeliPilot1]

I keep my helicopter at Pascan in Montreal. They have just completed the 3rd EC120 12-year service. I think they are the first service shop having done the 12yr so far but then again, I read the some stuff you guys do. It’s quite a job and runs between $130-$150k if no surprises. The last one was more due to a transmission issue. PM me if you want additional information.

[toptobottom]

wes120b/Helipilot1 - Thanks guys :ok:.
Conversion from Canadian is about £82k - £95k sterling and from US about £64k - £128k.
It'll be interesting to see what 'surprises' there are and what happens to resale values either side of the first wave of 12 year inspections...

[helicopter]

ILblog,

check PM.

[Loki696]

Hello,

We have on one of our EC-120's a torque fluctuation. And it also doesn't passes it power check and inflight loss of FLI.

We have changed everything that can be changed: VEMD, engine, electrical mastbox, torque sensor, helicopter wirring etc.

Also incontact with Eurocopter and Turbo Meca, butt still without resutl.

Does anyone have had this problem before, and knows a solution/suggestions?

Thanks already

[victor papa]

What does she do during the torque sensor calibration procedure? Does the VEMD and torque sensor respond correctly and update the torque reading vs pressure on the logcard? There is software differences causing problems on the torque system between the sensor and VEMD's.

[Squat switch]

As E-T points out it sounds like the FCU.

If you have more then one machine swap an FCU from a known good setup and try it.

Sounds like you have had an expensive diagnosis so far.

Best of Luck

[Phoinix]

A question for EC120 gurus:

I had a problem with collective friction on one particular helicopter. All the time I flew with the same friction setting. For the first hour or so, the friction was uniform through the whole operatinional travel of the collective. After time the friction was getting hard to about 7, 7.5 FLI TQ, after 8 FLI it sort of released and the friction was like before 7 FLI. The manitenance team took apart the whole collective assembly and checked the whole control system, no problems found, everything in limits.

Than on one flight, I experienced the same problem, the friction got harder from 7-8 FLI TQ and I released the friction completely moved the collective up and down a few times, set the friction to practical full on, did the movement again, set it back to my normal preference, and the problem was gone for about an hour flight time.

Any idea what the problem would be? We are running out of ideas. Did something like that ever happen to you?

[nellycopter]

Firstly may I wish everyone a happy and prosperous new year.

I have this problem and I,m hoping someone on here can maybe shed some light on it.
My 120 went in in July 11 for routine maintenance and had new brushes fitted to the starter / generator, all was well until within a few months and around 6 flight hours, the starter shaft broke at the shear point.
A good few weeks on the floor waiting for a new shaft to arrive, and again all was well...... Apart from this time it lasted less than 4 hrs / 4 weeks...... And it's sheared again....
I can't really tell if it's doing it on start up or spool down maybe,
I hit the starter button on both occasions and the starter didn't even attempt to turn the engine.
Both times the starter has been removed and the tempory engine turning tool used to make sure engine is free and not seized or stiff.....

Has anyone had this before, do any of you guys have any ideas, maybe even more important because you never know ! Do any of you have an APC 160SG140Q starter laying around so I don't have to wait weeks for one to come from the states ?

Appreciate any help /ideas ...

Best regards

Nelly. :bored:

[powerlimited]

Hi Nelly,
Happy new year.

One of the things which springs to mind from other types is that if you don't take care when fitting the starter then loads are placed on the shaft as it is left hanging whilst the clamp is placed around it to hold it in place.

Did the same person fit both starters?

Normally they shear on start because this is when the largest load is placed on the shaft.

Pwrltd

[nellycopter]

Thanks for the reply pwrltd,
Yes I think the same person at maintenance did fit the starter on both occasions,
I have spoken to a eurocopter engineer who tells me that it is a two man job to refit the starter as its very easy to fracture the spline drive shear point....
There is also a big sticker on the starter saying it must be supported until retaining clamp is fitted.

What I'm trying to find out is could it be anything else, I was wondering does the starter actually swap to start mode momentarily when the starter button is pressed to shut down or is it locked out ?

I can't just keep throwing money at it replacing the starter / shaft without any sort of explanation other than 'ain't seen that happen before '

It does seem too coincidental to have started after brush replacement....
Just wondering if anyone else had come across this ?
It must have happened before or why the big sticker on the casing ?

Nelly

[vfr440]

Nelly Copter
Pwrltd is correct, not just the sticker on the start-gen, the Bell MM warns against fitting without an extra pair of hands to support whilst the clamp is engaged and secured. Pretty much standard practice (you can even get the pilot to give you a hand ;)) - VFR

[powerlimited]

Hi Nelly,
I am not too familiar with the EC120, but I would have thought the starter is locked out, one thing to remember is that the starter/generator shaft is constantly engaged so once its turning the loads acting on it remains fairly constant, hence why they shear on start up when the rotors etc are stationary.

When it broke first time I assume you were in the field, hence did the starter/generator get replaced in the field? Were there two sets of hands available?

According to PartsBase there is one in Sweden:
Contact: Erik EdgrenPhone: 46-8-5454-9897Fax: +46 8 5511 4755Email: [email protected] Address:ex-changeparts ab (http://www.ex-changeparts.com)

Good Luck!
pwrltd

[RotaryWingB2]

It sounds like your engineer screwed up. Take it to EC UK.

[blackdog7]

Make sure you change the friction rings every couple hundred hours and use a dial gauge to make sure the shaft is centered before re-installation.

[John R81]

Nellycopter

Please check PMs for contact details requested.

Several EC120 being broken by Team Aero (www.teamaero.com (http://www.teamaero.com)) I understand.

Best of luck

John

[onshore]

The EC120 is a good machine and once you get some time on it you will find it is not a problem operating it at max weight.
pilot + 4 pax + baggage with 2+ hours fuel and cruise at 120 kts normally not a problem.
Maintenance not that expensive. I thought that maintenance in the states was supposed to be much cheaper than europe?
I know someone that had a 12 year done recently and i cost less than 40k stg

[Phoinix]

I'm helping my friend on his "homework" and the homework is about EC120, more exactly climb performance. The task requires to take-off with external cargo TOM = 1300kg at 1.000m, 8ºC and climb to 2.500m, -1ºC (ISA temperature gradient) to unload the cargo.

From the start, I really don't understand the origin of "corrected mass" but I must be getting the charts wrong as I get more climb performance at 2.500m than at 1.000m.

Corrected weight (5.8)
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l236/BlenderPilot/Show%20and%20tell/ScreenShot2012-02-01at185840.png

Rate of climb (5.9)
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l236/BlenderPilot/Show%20and%20tell/ScreenShot2012-02-01at185856.png

any ideas where I got it wrong?

[ILblog]

Anyone know how to remove the wall between cabin and trunk to put skis in baggage area? I have found several pins there, but it semms to me, that the rear seats shoud be removed first.

[victor papa]

Yip! Remove the rear seat, then pull the panel towards the cabin and release the quick release pins and the panel is off. You can reinstall the rear seat no problems but just be aware that if you have any fuel leak or sweating on your transfer tubes between the upper and lower tank you will have a fuel smell in the cabin.

[puntosaurus]

What about that big door under the rear fuselage ?

[nellycopter]

We recently had the hammers (anti vibration weights) tuned on our ec120'
Which has made a vast improvement, although as I trundle round at 70kt
I think I need to retune to 412 rrpm and not the 414rrpm we set them at !

My question now that I understand what the two under the cab do, is what does the third weight which is horizontal and under the instrument panel do ?

How is this one tuned ?
What vibration will it take out ?

Any help appreciated

Nelly

[Rigidhead]

Hello Nelly,

The third hammer is also for 3 per rev. vibration, but for lateral. I have found with most 120's that if the aircraft needs work on the lateral hammer, the ride quality will have an "edge" to it that is more noticeable than a vertical 3 per. (Of course, I may just be the overly sensitive type when it comes to laterals!)

What kind of equipment is your Engineer using to tune with? Do you have the later style hammers with adjusting washers or the older shifting mass style? I would recommend upgrading if the answer is the older, as the newer style does make for much easier/more effective tuning.

Regards,

Rigidhead

[nellycopter]

Thanks for the reply rigidhead,

Our aircraft had its six year service and had to have the head completely stripped down, which of course may have disturbed a few things, so I had the track and ballance done at maintenance, which resulted in most of the washer weights on the blades being removed.
Track and ballance were just about bang on, but it gave the aircraft some very unusual vibrations through the floor.. Which I later found out it needed the 3per doing.
So we went to have them done with the microvib II,
Again it turned out that they were way out, we tuned them to 414 rrpm, which I think may need doing again at 411/412 rrpm as that's what I trundle round at ...

So when we do the underneath hammers next time is it worth doing the one in the front ? And is it tuned in exactly the same way as the others ?
Eg. 3xrrpm ?

Thanks for and help or advice,

Nelly

[Shawn Coyle]

Phoinix:
The should be another chart that tells you how to get the corrected mass sorted out.

[Phoinix]

Besides the charts attached I found no others in reference to corrected weight.

[JimEli]

That appears to be the correct chart.

Corrected Wt = GWt*1/density ratio (sigma)

US Standard Altitude 1976 (http://modelweb.gsfc.nasa.gov/atmos/us_standard.html)

online calculator (http://www.digitaldutch.com/atmoscalc/)

[Never in Balance]

What size Ski's are you using that require that amount of room?
I echo 'victor papa' comments on the smell, as i've done a bit of cargo work in a 120. Make sure you're windows are wide open and vent the cabin as much as possible. Or alternatively buy shorter skis :ok:
NiBsy.

[John R81]

If you have a fuel smell in the cargo area, in addition to checking the transfer tubes take a look at the torque settings of the screws in the suspension plate in the top of the lower blader; where the bladder top is attached to the lower cargo floor. I don't mean the torque settings of the two bolts through the cargo floor.

If the screws are over-torques then the inner-bladder and outer-bladder metal plates can distort downwards in the centre and ease their edge-grip on the fuel bladder, and fuel can weep as a result. This would be more noticable when fuel quantity exceeds the volume of the lower bladder (about +240 KG? someone can correct me if that figure is wrong, I don't have the manual with me just now)

[Rigidhead]

Re. Fuel Smell.

If the smell is a sort of cross between raw fuel/exhaust smell rather than
strictly a raw fuel quality, the adjusted fuel valve is often the culprit.

Regards,

Rigidhead

[Ready2Fly]

I read about some quite different figures when it comes to the 12Y inspection on a Colibri. According to this post (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/433407-ec120-3.html#post6325697) back from Jan 2011 it is around 100-120k USD if nothing unusual arises, then in Jan 2012 somebody posted he heard about the same being done at 40k Sterling. So EUR 48,000 to EUR 90,000 leaves quite some room.

I am interested to hear about any other bills as there should have been a lot more 12Y inspections being done since beginning of 2011. I guess it is one reason why there are quite a lot of EC120 on the market before they hit the 12 year 'deadline'.

Furthermore could somebody confirm the time needed to be around 2-3 months (300 man hours plus availability of parts from EC)?

TIA

[aegir]

the difference in price could be explained with the necessity to change some item or not.
I'll try to give you an average price.

[John R81]

My machine is 100hrs along the process. Now stripped, and MRG cracked.

Anticipated 450 hrs scheduled work. Mandetory parts currently £10k. Plus VAT. Plus anything they find in the inspection. Plus any touch-up (or repaint) afterwards.

I will let you know when I get her back, and whether I recommend the maintenance outfit

[Ready2Fly]

Many thanks in advance for your info. 450hrs is a long time. I'll press my thumbs that you don't get a bad surprise.

btw ... do you (or anybody of you) know whether the owner of G-JJFB is on pp as well? Beautiful EC120 which is up for sale with only 315TT :ok:

[IMO]

Hi. It takes 350 man hours to do the 12 year. We've just finished our second one. With the best will in the world you are looking at 3- 4 months downtime dur to spares availability from Eurocopter. PM me if you need more info.PS I don't think the owner of FB uses the forum.

[John R81]

Hrs as IMO says - if he is the man doing them. Mandetory Eurocopter parts currently £10k

[theaceofblades]

Does anybody have any details of G-JJFB being for sale ? A link ? It's not on avbuyer.

Thanks in advance.

Ace

[Tallguy]

theaceofblades, when I spoke to the actual owner a month or so ago after I saw an advert for it, it turned out it was a scam and JJFB was not on the market, I spoke with the 'seller' a number of times for amusement who was an african gentlemen with a twitchy finger that cut me off each time the questioning became difficult for him.

[theaceofblades]

OK, thanks for the heads up :ok:

[Ready2Fly]

At least that explains the price :ugh:

Phone number starts with +44703... which i would bet is an ip-phonenumber routed to the african continent.

I have informed the website about the scam which is why i will not put any link on here.

[nellycopter]

I live about two miles from JJFB base and it's defiantly not for sale !
Having just spoke to the owner.....
This scam actually happened last year to him as well....

Nelly...

[toptobottom]

Anyone tell me what plugs are compatible with the 24v DC power socket situated behind the collective? Can't find anything in the book...

[FullTravelFree]

Hi ttb,
I've done some research on this recently.
The plug can be ordered directly from EC for about
(from memory) 400 euro. :eek:
If its for a simple handheld GPS or so there a 2 euro alternative.
I have used this for several months to power a Garmin GPs, no problems.
bananaplug (http://www.google.nl/search?q=bananaplug&hl=nl&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=KL-rT6nVJcTk4QSdp7WbCQ&ved=0CIkBELAE&biw=1280&bih=685)

Goodluck,
FTF

[toptobottom]

Thanks FTF

400 euro vs. $2?! Ermmm....

I've tried 4mm banana plugs (and 5mm), but they don't fit and wondered if there was some obscure design I need to look for. It's to power an iPad 3 (running SkyDemon) which works well but munches through its battery faster than Greek lady's beard trimmer.

[FullTravelFree]

I don't remember the bananaplug size I bought.
I do remember using pliers to bend the metal parts into
'perfect' fit :)
Make sure that voltages match for your ipad.

Goodluck! :ok:

FTF

[toptobottom]

Good plan FTF - my 5mm banana plugs are now 6.5mm banana plugs and working a treat... I'm using a 24v truck cigarette lighter USB charger thingy to cope with 24v input :ok:

[RotaryWingB2]

Did anyone here attend EC UK's '120' day?

How was it?

[toptobottom]

I did and thought it was good; I think EC found attendance a little disappointing (it was expecting 75+ guests, but less than half turned up), but everyone from the MD down was friendly and helpful. No hard sell, nice lunch and even nicer goody bag :ok:

[John R81]

Didn't turn up - but then, didn't get an invite.

I understand EC130 G-WCKD came as a static display. It's departure from EGKR was the first I knew of the day.

[RotaryWingB2]

Are EC UK your maintenace provider John?

[nellycopter]

Maybe they should have used pprune to advertise the event ?
There may have been more turn up !
It was a nice day, nice food, nice people as always......

Nelly

[John R81]

RWB2 - no, I use EBG at Redhill.

Eurocopter Oxford are, however, helping with my MRG which is currently vacationing in France at my expense due to a small amount of corrosion found on the casing during the 12-year.

If it was for customers of their maintenance then I can see why no invite.

Regards

John

[vfr440]

Good choice for maintenance - cost effective too :ok: - VFR

[RotaryWingB2]

John,

You are quite correct, but with little more effort and thought they could of invited every 120 owner in the country.

[FLY 7]

"......., but with little more effort and thought they could of invited every 120 owner in the country ".


...and, perhaps, a few prospective customers ?

[nellycopter]

The event was aimed at 44 owners who may be thinking of upgrading....

[toptobottom]

John - EC was squeezing me gently on maintenance, particularly as my 12 year comes up next year. Let us know how you get on with EBG? I've also been told that Heli Holland offers very competitive deals on the 12 year and has already done several...

TTB

[John R81]

TTB - will do - almost complete. Hope to have the ship back in the air in about two weeks. EC have confirmed today that the corrosion on the MRG casing is minor and can be repaired, just waiting now to hear when they can do this by. The rest of the machine is (largely) back together so there might not even be a delay to the original schedule (no smily for "fingers crossed" - clearly something the Mods should address!)

[JTobias]

I attended, it was a great day, with a great goody bag too.
They didn't need to hard sell me. I would love to order one.
Paying for it might be a problem though !

And I got to see TTB lift off in his new chopper too !

Joel :ok:

[Ian Corrigible]

Maybe they should have used PPRuNe to advertise the event ?
For any Canuck EC120 (/EC130) PPRuNers out there, ECL is holding a three-day EC120 & EC130 operator event at Le Westin Resort & Spa, Tremblant, QC during May 25-27. The RSVP POC shown on the 'save the date' mail-out is ashley.hogan @ eurocopter.ca

I/C

[StevePatterson]

Hi John R81 I was wondering whether you could share the costs of the 12 year inspection, I am also looking to buy turbine helicopter, for private and charter work, I was initially looking at a 206, but the EC120 looks far better for passengers, but after reading the thread about performance and turbomeca I am not so sure...

Steve P

[toptobottom]

We have a 2001 EC120 that has an extremely irritating, intermittent starting problem.

FCU at 22 degrees, pump 30 secs, voltage > 25v. Activate starter, T4 rises to around 700 degrees, Ng typically climbs slowly to somewhere around 36% when the engine just stops accelerating. Tweaking the twist grip to nudge the red line (T4 800 degrees) sometimes helps, occasionally we have to go into the red, nudging 850-860 degrees for 3-4 seconds . When this happens, the engine accelerates again, but as soon as you throttle back to T4 < 800 degrees, the Ng droops and the engine stagnates again, typically at around 36%. A second attempt might be slightly better (faster initial acceleration), but the problem still exists. If a third attempt is necessary, the problem then is the exhausted battery (after the previous extended start attempts) and so a GPU is needed. But here's the thing... we only normally use the GPU after one of these failed starts and when we do, the start is often faultless, with Ng racing towards 50% in no time and T4 between 600 and 700 degrees :confused:. If we use a GPU initially, the start will be better, not surprisingly, but we may still get the 'stagnation' problem. Using a GPU after one of these failed starts always gives the best start of all.

The aircraft has had a recently overhauled starter/gen, new FCU and new injector manifolds (which substantially improved power margins). It doesn't seem to matter if the engine is warm or cold, nor whether the ambient temperature is warm of cold. It has a particle seperator, but the problem persists whether this is removed or not.

We're stumped - any ideas anyone?

[RotaryWingB2]

Did you have these problems before the OH starter, and other new bits were fitted?

Has anyone looked at the P3 feed?

[toptobottom]

Thanks RW B2

The FCU was replaced last year before we bought the aircraft. I've spoken to pilots who flew the machine immediately before and after this replacement and they claim the starts did improve afterwards for a short period of time, but soon went back to as they were before.

Injector manifolds and OH starter have made no difference.

I'm not aware of any work being done on the P3 air feed, other than the AD that was issued in the Summer to check clearance between the first section of the air pipe and the RH rear half wall. I'll check with the technicians, but how would this cause the intermittent problem?

TTB

[chutedragger]

Recently...had slow, hung starts. Modulated, like you said you are. New guys couldn't start it.0, as they didn't have the finess, for getting it going. They wanted it by the book...on the white line!! Like a fadec start.

We found the seals on the pressure of fcu side were leaking (bypassing) a small amount of fuel. The boost pump volume and pressure was slightly reduced...so a "calibrated" start was not acheivable.

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

A few years back an EC 120 based with Cabair at Elstree G-YSON had the exact same problem ! after a number of trips back and forth to Eurocopter the problem was still not solved till one of their guys did such a hot start the engine needed replacing and that solved it . Not much help I know but it does sound exactly the same

cbs

[toptobottom]

chutedragger - will check all seals thoroughly, but I'm not aware of any fuel leaks. Would such a leak be visible in the engine compartment?

CBS - thanks, that's very encouraging! :}

The bit I don't understand is why a GPU start works so well after such a dismal attempt using the aircraft's own power. It could be coincidence, but I'm not convinced... :hmm:

[HueyLoach]

TTB,

Have you noticed the battery voltage immediately after you engage the starter switch? The RFM calls for a minimum of 15 volts but we learned the hard way that any less than 17 volts can compromise the start.
As a matter of fact when we were new to the model in our organization, we experienced a couple of hot starts due to bad batteries and impatient pilots.

[jellycopter]

Have your maintainers done a timed run-down check on shutdown to check for a 'stiff' bearing? This could cause the engine acceleration difficulties during start-up.
JJ

[toptobottom]

jj
I'll add that to my list. Thinking logically, it might also explain why a GPU start (with its extra grunt) gives better acceleration.
TTB

[toptobottom]

HueyLoach
The voltage is good before the start i.e. > 25v and at worst drops to maybe 19-20v during the start sequence, so well within limits. The GPU stays at 24-25v during the start.
TTB

[helicopterray]

One key piece of information in troubleshooting that snag is that the engine hangs up around 35%.

The Arriel and Arrius engines are similar in design.
When you shut the engine down, at around 40% Ng, the pressurizing valve opens and redirects the fuel in the engine back to the fuel tank, rather than continue into the engine.
When you start the engine, fuel pressure is supposed to close the pressurizing valve and start fueling through the sling wheel, rather than the start injectors.
If the pressurizing valve doesn't close, the start will stagnate around 35% Ng.

Also, you indicate the aircraft was built in 2001.
I believe the fuel system components are supposed to be overhauled every 10 years. Don't quote me on this particular component, I don't have the manuals in front of me, but certainly worth checking.

[RVDT]

Try a few basic things,

Actually measure the voltage at the starter using the battery first and then the GPU with a meter. The cockpit instruments are not good enough and can tell you lies.

There are different paths that the current takes between the two start regimes.

Another problem you may have - The "generator" part of the starter/generator is always generating it is just isolated during the start. If it is not isolated as the speed increases the generator starts to cancel out the starter.

I would guess that on a GPU start the start portion is isolated completely with a different method as you notmally cannot charge the GPU.

I would be looking in the EMB for bad contacts, corrosion, loose or broken connectors etc.

It ain't rocket science but you should do something before you burn it.

On another point make sure that your DC system is in good shape and operating correctly with correct parts.

Several demons have popped up in this area on the Arriel causing accessory drive failures and subsequent engine failures.

[toptobottom]

helicopterray - that sounds very plausible; I'll ask the lads to check that out. What activates the pressurizing valve - is it just fuel pressure, or is it electrically activated? Are you a technician? Have you experienced this problem before on the Arriel engine? If so, I may PM you you to pick your brains a bit more... :ok:

RVDT - the aircraft has suffered from slow starts for a long time, but only recently has it occasionally hung completely. With a GPU, voltage on the VEMD is typically 26.4v and significantly, doesn't drop anything like as much as when starting using the aircraft's SAFT battery, maybe by 1-2 volts, instead of the 5-6 volts. As far as I know, all the basic things have been checked - several times :*

Thanks both for the advice - much appreciated!

[RotaryWingB2]

T2B,

P3 air not sealing correctly can cause stagnated starts, but in this instance the fault appears to lie in the start electro valve.

I've just had a quick wizz through the troubleshooting manual to confirm.

Where is the aircraft based, maybe I can supply hands on help.

[toptobottom]

RWB2

I'll PM you :ok:

[toptobottom]

Well, after a month of investigation, the problem seems to have been the T4.5 thermo couple probes...

The engineers looked at the master control box, starter relays, the starter, electro start valves, FCU, lubrication pump, fuel valves, injectors, etc..

The problem was eventually found to be one or more of the T4 probes sending false temperature readings to the VEMD. During the start, despite apparently taking T4 up to 800 oC (and higher on occasion, for a few seconds), it was actually much cooler and it was this that caused the stagnation, usually at around 36% Ng.

A new T4.5 harness (obviously, you need to buy all 4 new probes...) and she's now back to form.

Just a heads up, in case other EC120s show similar symptoms - you might save yourself a few $000s on fruitless investigation. This intermittent problem originally affected only 1 in 10 starts, but it got progressively worse until it was happening 7 times out of 10 and usually only when cold. Thanks for all the suggestions :ok:

[John R81]

So, intermittent problem has begun where the generator still works in both start / charge mode but intermittently no current is getting through to the battery. This gives "MAster Caution: Gen" and shortly afterwards the "Master Caution: Electronics". On/Off toggle GEN and ELEC RESET are not effective, though land and shut-down, it might come back fine.

I understand that the control of voltage flow to / from the battery is governed by the box behind the fuse panel in the cargo hold. This has 5 boards.

1. Anyone else had this problem?
2. Which of the boards / relays shoudl we investigate?
3. Does Eurocopter swap or fix individual boards?

Any other thoughts / ideas also welcome. We have checked all the wires and connections. Battery cap recently checked and is fine.

Thanks

[helops]

How many positions does the EC120 throttle have?

Three?

Off - Start position(white line) - Flight

or there is another position for idle? if not what is the value of NG for idle ?

thank you...it seems strange but I can not understand it from the manual..

[Phoinix]

White mark is the position for starting. As you start you accelerate the throttle from starting throttle position to ground idle, the idle pin kicks in (N1 approx. 60%).

[John R81]

And the answer to #124 is.......

The whole electrical control box goes back as an exchange item. £5k. However, it did cure the problem.

[John R81]

The EASA issued item boils down to this:

EASA AD 2011-0185 (Part I & Part II) (Modification of floatation gear) due at 1213.1 A/F hours or 17/02/2013

The only problem is, when contacting Eurocopter they say "speak to Zodiac, we don't have the parts" and Zodiac says "we can fit your request into the line schedule for early March 2013". And both Eurocopter and Zodiac say "this is not an AOG matter, as you can fly without floats". That really depends on the type of work your machine is doing! From 17th of the month I am losing hours/income.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Does anyone else fancy joining an effort to ask EASA to extend the deadline to a point when the parts might actually be available? After all, the floats still work (recent inflation check)

[toptobottom]

Lane 2 on my VEMD has an intermittent fault whereby the output from the computer doesn't quite make it to the screen in a coherent form, which displays a snowstorm of interference - as though it can't quite 'lock on' to the right channel. The computer itself is working fine and all the data can be read through Lane 1. It's probably just a dodgy 2 cent diode that's corrupts the image output signal.

Exchange unit, sir? that'll be £5k please :ouch:

[RotaryWingB2]

Exchange unit, sir? that'll be £5k please http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/shiner.gif

If you think maintenance is expensive, try having a crash.

[nellycopter]

Not the nicest of replies RW.....

[victor papa]

Toptobottom, just a quick explanation that might shed some light. Screen 1 is the visual display of processor 1 and screen 2 the visual display of processor 2- 2 seperate computers. They each receive the primary info incase of a failure so you retain the primary info from the other processor. Each processor then have additional tasks ie 1 calculates the FLI and 2 The power check. So by excluding screen 2 you are excluding processor 2 which probably means processor 2 is gone. Unfortunately the processors can only be replaced by Thales thus the service exchange.

[whatsarunway]

Exchange VEMD unit- 5k? that seems quite reasonable, the EDU we have in the A119 which is basically the same as the VEMD just not as well thought out, costs 55k per screen as a unit exchange, and if you think eurocopter are slow with the parts, you ain't seen nothing yet! We have been through 8 EDUs in 900hrs. :ugh:

[toptobottom]

VP - thanks for the info. The problem with my unit is that 'processor 2' is always working fine. It survives all the diagnostics tests and thinks it's displaying the info correctly. If I turn it off, screen 1 can scroll through all the primary info e.g. Ts & Ps, voltages, FLI, etc. on Screen 1 and when I keep screen 2 on and scroll, it will perform all the different functions perfectly, including a power check - it's just that you can't see it...

Whatsarunway - 8 EDUs in 900 hours?! Surely, that's a warranty job though? Even Agusta must realise that isn't acceptable?! 55k and huge waiting lists also aren't acceptable, but they know we don't have a choice... :mad:

[as350nut]

Any one elaborate or correct my recent rumour that Eurocopter is set to scrap the B2 keep the B3e and turn the screws up on the power for the ec120 ( how much I don't know) so that it can actually lift full pax and fuel in the same universe

[Ready2Fly]

Interesting rumour. If they are listening to the market, they'd better scrap the B3e and go back to the B3+ - nobody wants to have a B3e after the trouble they had with it.

Bell did a mistake when ending their 206 (well, ok, everything has an end of life) but why should Eurocopter stop the B2 when there still is a market for it?

[Wai Wai]

Just picked up an ec120 for our fleet of aircraft and am looking for a maneuver guide to help in setting up a profile guide for training our pilots. Any help in this arena would be appreciated.

[Spunk]

I have to write a maintenance program (EASA country) for an EC120. I hope to have covered all of the airframe items and the national requirements but I'm still short of the engine items as I don't have access to the Turbomeca Manuals yet.

Could somebody please provide me with the required inspection items of the Arius 2F engine?

Thanks in advance.

[as350nut]

Having read all I can in past posts regarding operating Ec120 just wondering if there is any thing new out there with regards to;
Starting hints
Do the blades last full life ( seems lots for sale have blade change)
Load carrying rule of thumb
VMED operation, dependability
Pilot removal of dual controls( how easy is this)
Thanks in advance

[victor papa]

As350nut lets see.
Starting hints: Firstly ensure you disconnect batt after shutdown so you have good batt for start. Secondly, simply follow the correct 120 post SB start procedure-line up the white lines and she goes no issues.
Blades life time: In my experience depend on environment, but if they are maintained correctly even if they dont look nice they last long. Do not paint them every 100hrs to look nice and they will sand erode to a point within limits and stay there, paint them especially with the incorrect chemicals and procedure and the paint and rubber strip will come off. Big problem and exchange req.
VEMD: reliable but make sure if you do replace it you get compatable software unit
Dual Controls: Easy but a locking required on the collective, cyclic and pedals just pins and dont forget the dummy plug on collective must be installed if you remove the duals. Our AMO gave us a illustration and we had to fit and remove 3 times incl the locking and then gave us AMO authorisation to fit and remove.

[John R81]

Starts generally - the Eurocopter procedure works fine. People are on record as having toasted an engine with an "improved" procedures. Hot and fast is better for the engine, I am told.

Hot starts - I prefer to get T4 clearly below the limit - 20 degrees or so. Also, keep the throttle back slightly from the white line then advance it in to prevent run-away T4 (exciting when that happens!)

Take the voltage warning seriously - below 15v at start and you are likely to have an over-temp. Watch that as closely as T4 during starts. If the machine has been idle for a while then consider a remote battery for the first start.

Run the engine weekly. If not the specs require you to set it up for storage. If you don't then you may find your paperwork to be a problem, and having to send the engine back to T for inspection is time consuming and not cheap.

Check the gearbox casing bolts - are they capped with weather-proofing? This is now standard for a rebuild (after 12 years) and on new machines. Without it corrosion in the gearbox studs can be a problem which you will find when you come to strip the MRG.

Load - the machine is sensitive to fwd centre of gravity. If I have anything in the load compartment I try to keep it to the rear of the bay as it does affect cyclic position and it makes me happier. As a rule of thumb, no cargo you +2 chaps then unless someone is very heavy you can carry full fuel. Any more pax (4x chaps or your 3 chaps plus a lady) and you are unlikely to be able to carry full fuel. I would suggest however that if you are departing in an EC120 with your W&B based on a 'rule of thumb' then we will be reading about you soon in an AAIB bulletin. I know, you do actually always check.

Make a note of the frame number and the tail number as these are different (not a lot of people know that). It can be an interesting discussion during a CAA audit (that's how I found out). The answer is the tails are built in China and have their own identification plate, so the aircraft frame number is the one the CAA chap needs, not the tail one.

[FullTravelFree]

In a few weeks our EC120 will go for a 4+ month winter sleep.
Instead of starting the engine every week, we're considering the
conservation procedure (not sure about the terminology) for the Arrius 2F.
Anyone has experience with this, is it for this situation a viable option?

Off course I'll talk to the mechanics, but for now I'm just curious about the procedure, costs and any other considerations.

Thanks in advance,

FTF :ok:

[as350nut]

I have some annoying error messages on VEMD ;
Vehicle Parameters out of Range
Failure detected


When the engineer checks them it is GPS not detected; or a keypad issue; but it is a new VMED with just 17 starts on it


I am told that there is no way to clear them and they will drop off after 250 starts.
This sounds really bad if its true; because will end up ignoring the message, I'm not going to get it checked every flight
What goes on? Is this Frenchmans revenge

[HeliNomad]

I have noticed on my EC-130 that if I for example turn on Direct Battery before I turn on External Batt/Pwr in the start up sequence I will, upon shut down, get a failure detected. It spits out some erroneous reason similar to what you are finding. The only reason why I would turn Direct Battery on before External Batt/Pwr as called for in the start up check list would be for a night flight where I am turning on the Dome lights of the cabin for loading pax. The VEMD's are famous for showing goofy failures sometimes. Although mine is flawless when the checklist is followed...I bet you will find a reason as to why it does what it does.

Good luck.

[Jabberwocky82]

If you hold the top four buttons on on the VEMD then push the battery on and hold (the four buttons) until it says let go, you'll find yourself in the menu where you can check the last vehicle parameter over limits yourself.

edit: I had a think about this and you actually hold the bottom three button of the top screen, off2, reest and select, not all four. Apologies as350nut.

[John R81]

Most 120 drivers will be aware of the risk of somethingfalling down the front edge of the floor and disappearing from view. This Irish accident report covers whathappened to G-BZIU

http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/upload/general/12104-2001007_INCIDENT_GBZIU-0.PDF (http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/upload/general/12104-2001007_INCIDENT_GBZIU-0.PDF)

On Sunday 8th June on a charter flight in my machine, one of the pax losthis mobile – seems to have fallen from his pocket unknown. Yes, with that nose-down profile in cruise flight it ended up dropping-off the front ofthe floor and disappearing underneath. Fortunately,on this occasion it did not jam anything; it just sat there. Landing was uneventful, but the phone thenneeded to be recovered to return the machine to service, and though we couldsee it through the bottom of the plexi-glass there was no way to get a hand toit. Judicial application of a borrowed barbeque forkmoved the phone to a position where it could be recovered.
A salutaryreminder that loose objects on the floor of a 120 can easily end up where youdon’t want them. On this occasion no drama, but it could have ended differently.

[toptobottom]

John


I've had this exact thing happen to me and having since heard about the machine where the pedals jammed, there's now a new entry in the toptobottom flight manual - no loose items on the floor!

[JamesR44R2]

john, do you rent your EC120?

[FullTravelFree]

I found a metal part of the GPS missing, it also fell in that gap.
Had to buy "mechanical fingers" to get it out. I guess it's good to have one of these around in the hangar...

LINK

[John R81]

FFT - that is so obviously right. Bought one on eBay - under £3 with free delivery. Will place in the hold for emergency use.

James - PM sent

[krypton_john]

Interesting - it has fingers!

Also very handy is one with a magnet on the end for retrieving nuts and circlips that have fallen from your fingertips into the bowels of the machine!

[nellycopter]

Long shot it may be,
But I would be very interested if anyone knows where I could get my hands on a serviceable Arrius 2F engine ?
Mine is emigrating to Turbomeca France as its started to make metal.

Any help appreciated

Nelly

[as350nut]

Have sorted out the cause for this message on every flight, I changed from the awful NiCad battery to 2x odyssey sealed lead battery's and have no faults or problems starting. The message comes up because of the different battery type in use.

[John R81]

Does that require a modification? I ask because recently informed of someone at CAA trying to claim that a painted line added to helicopter side was "a modification" requiring paperwork. I understand that view was over-ruled when questioned.

[as350nut]

Yes involves an engineering order to modify; a stainless steel bracket to hold the batterys in; removal of the NiCad cradle; a loop in the wiring to disconnect the fire warning for the stinky little NiCad when it decides to light up. A once off 2,000 cost but then you go from I NiCad at 6 to 8K that decides to let you down on start even though it says its good to go, to two oddessy that are about 500 each mil spec, contained, leak proof and super dependable and won't set you on fire if they are in the mood. They are good for 2 yrs and then put them (12V) in your car as they still have 3 yrs left on warranty ( 5 total).

[John R81]

Very interesting - thanks for the info. :ok:

I also have spurious warnings / over-limits from time to time. Through experimentation I have found that applying the rotor brake later than -10 from the stated application rpm can sometimes (not always) generate a spurious report of rotor over-speed (clearly spurious, as it is timed at 0.0 sec at a speed sufficient to hurl the blades into low orbit. The secret seems to be to apply rotor break just below 120 rpm and keep it fully on through the 110 - 50 range. Actually, I keep the break on until the rotor slows and I can position a blade to the front. Since adopting this technique I don't remember seeing a false rotor over-speed warning.

I haven't found the source of the spurious "Gen out of parameter" warning on start, not being prepared to play with the start sequence, but this could be the NiCad, like yours. My 120 does start well, and only once has she "hung" at 400 degrees (aborted, give it a few minutes, next start was perfect), and only a couple of times have I aborted start for battery voltage drop (I give up at seeing +1v to the stated 15v and go get ground power).

Interestingly, I had noticed that the faster / better the start goes on internal battery the more likely the spurious GEN warning is to arise, which is the opposite of what I would expect from a true warning. It is certainly not linked to a low voltage reference on the screen (which we all watch closely during starts) as the false report seems to be less likely to occur if there is a larger voltage drop on the battery. And, I have not actually had a false warning at all when an external ground power source has been added, which would be occasional (I know) but it would then be a cold / first start which would for me be quick and hot per the book; just the type of start that on internal battery only is more likely to generate a false report.

I do always check the on-board screen after the flight just to make sure that it is not a real fault detected; can't bring myself to not check even when I think I am certain the report is false!

[RVDT]

Gen out of parameter on start.

On investigation of the RFM you may find a statement that this is "normal".

[John R81]

Yup. That just means they expect an error report. Don't always get it though.

Or are you referring to the over limit report displaying until 40%NR on next start, which is something different?

[Ian Corrigible]

Not much room for your clubs (or missus), though. :E

Meet the tiny Colibri, Germany's one-seat wonder (http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20150128-meet-the-tiny-colibri-germanys-one-seat-wonder)

I/C

[Bravo73]

Not much room for your clubs (or missus), though. :E

Meet the tiny Colibri, Germany's one-seat wonder (http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20150128-meet-the-tiny-colibri-germanys-one-seat-wonder)

I/C

FYI, that link won't open in the UK due to being bbc.com, not bbc.co.uk.

[Ian Corrigible]

Bugger... At the risk of taking this thread completely off topic, highlights below.

jaL7Dalcx-8&x-yt-cl=85027636

Set to enter series production during 2016, the single-seat IMA Colibri electric car is aimed squarely at businesses that operate fleets of service vehicles in densely populated urban areas, where parking is at a premium.

IMA officials decided to name the Colibri after a genus of hummingbird because it reflects the car’s chief qualities: small, quick and speedy. “We also wanted to create a cost-saving solution that’s safe, comfortable and nice to look at, too,” they explain.

The Colibri weighs a mere 970lbs and measures about 9ft long, 4ft wide and 4½ft tall. It has a starting price of €10,990 (about $12,500) plus a monthly battery-rental fee of about $45.

Power comes from a 50kw (~67hp) electric motor matched to a single-speed transmission. The rear-wheel-drive Colibri will zip from zero to 62mph in a respectable 9.9sec and press on to a top speed of 75mph. IMA estimates the car will cruise for about 68 miles on full charge.

I/C