Low hour expats (aussies) working in Asia Question

[onezeroonethree]

Hi guys,

Just doing some research at the moment and looking for some opinions of guys who are currently doing this / have done it / anyone who knows about this stuff.

My question is regarding expat pilots in Asia. For example the pilot shortage in Indonesia I have been informed about. I have been told low hour guys like myself, with 200-300hours have gone to Indonesia successfully to become first officers on turbo props.

I have been researching this but I'm still unsure how this would plan out a career for me in the long run.

Over on the aussie forums here on pprunes theres a crap load of negativity towards cadetships such as the J* one... which are not too different from a low hour pilot going over to Indonesia and scoring a gig as a co-pilot in a turbo prop for example.

My question is this: I get a job on a turbo prop for 2 years... maybe 4 or something. I start off with for example 200 TT of which 100 is PIC. After my 2 or 4 years I will have logged co-pilot time... cool...

But where too from there? I may / may not have enough hours for my ATPL and even if I do I wont have as much PIC as someone who would've scored a first job flying a Cessna out of the left hand seat. I guess my fear is in - with this career move what's the chance that you become unappealing to airlines in the long run? What's the chance you end up as a career first-officer with no hope of going captain? Or if I went further on overseas to Europe/Middle East or even back home to Oz, what are the chances the airlines may not want to hire me at all let alone give me a chance to move up onto the left hand seat?

Not sure if this question has been done or not but I've looked through the threads here and couldn't find the information I am seeking.

Any info would be appreciated. Thanks

[duyentranvan]

go back to where u belong aussie... the asians dont welcome u

[itsbrokenagain]

duyentranvan - that was a mature helpful response from a not so professional pilot !

onezeroonethree - honestly as a low timer there are far and few jobs outside of your home country for you. Once you get some time up your sleeve then you will get the option of expat work. Even if you did land one of these low timer jobs outside of Oz, they would most likely use and abuse you so the whole thing wouldnt be worth it. My advice is to stick to your own backyard and build time there, when I got my CPL there were no jobs at all in Australia, in the end I used some money I saved and bought a C152 and started a flight school and air charter business some 3000km from home. At the time I was not alone at doing this... not that I would repeat it, as it was a hard way to get flight time running a business at a young age and all.

good luck.

[duyentranvan]

hey bro im serious here... there are no jobs in asia for you... its just like the asians going to aussieland, you would have said the same thing to them too. :ugh:

perhaps you guys can try cathay pacific. they love the aussies mainly because the guy running the show up there is an aussie?

[onezeroonethree]

duyentranvan: http://www.playdota.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=964&pictureid=17471

;)

[onezeroonethree]

ts just like the asians going to aussieland, you would have said the same thing to them too.

I've got a few mates from asia who are here to look for jobs or came here to do their training... and run into a few during my time...

I, nor anyone else have told them "go back to asia where you belong, you aint welcome here"

but yeah, nice try. I checked up your previous posts in other threads :ok:

[thornycactus]

go back to where u belong aussie... the asians dont welcome u
I like duyentranvan's reply! Well said! :ok:

hey bro im serious here... there are no jobs in asia for you... its just like the asians going to aussieland, you would have said the same thing to them too. :ugh:
Pretty straight forward. :D

perhaps you guys can try cathay pacific. they love the aussies mainly because the guy running the show up there is an aussie?
Cathay Pacific operational management is run by the white and they prefer white people to black hair Asian. :ooh:

[jimmygill]

hey bro im serious here... there are no jobs in asia for you... its just like the asians going to aussieland, you would have said the same thing to them too.

perhaps you guys can try cathay pacific. they love the aussies mainly because the guy running the show up there is an aussie?

Simple clean argument. The aussies are telling the same thing to thousands of asians everyday... but its unprofessional if an asian tells this to aussies..


that reminds me of a quotation by Javed Akhtar:
“If you plunder from west to east you are great like Alexander. if you do the same from east to west you are a barbarian like Chengiz.”


Seems like this small mindedness is much too prevalent amongst western aviators.


@onezeroonethree
I, nor anyone else have told them "go back to asia where you belong, you aint welcome here"

You don't, your consulates, embassies and your immigration officials do.

[itsbrokenagain]

Wow how can one simple innocent question, that seemed so legitimate turn into such a pissing match by a bunch of simple minded pricks!

Come on boys and girls, prove to the world you are professional Pilots not simple minded dicks.

If anyone here can honestly say they havent been a low houred Pilot just out training wondering how to make the break in they are simply liars . We have all been here and most likely had the same thoughts this posted has had. :sad:

[jimmygill]

@itsbrokenagain
duyentranvan - that was a mature helpful response from a not so professional pilot !

In post number three you started pissing in the diapers.

[itsbrokenagain]

Ohhhhh jimmy .....you still are one sick bitter and twisted person aren't you!

I would hate to be you.

[duyentranvan]

hey guys, im just stating the fact here and i ain't being a racist or something.. but thats the fact you aussies are doing to the rest of the world.And you guys turn up in an asian airline and start to whine about how bad the rostering guys are treating you and shi*s... If you want facts, go and have a look at the fragrant harbour threads.Nearly everyday you guys cry and whine about something.I seriously don't know why and how you aussies end up in top class airlines like cx but i am certainly sure they would perhaps be the only asian airline which will take guys in with low hours.

[duyentranvan]

and itsbrokenagain, you're turning sore loser are you? because nobody supports your "professional" comments? Go get yourself a drink at a pub in coolangatta or whereever you live mate.

[break_break]

I seriously don't know why and how you aussies end up in top class airlines like cx

That's b'cos we are better pilots..

the asians dont welcome u

Don't think the female flight attendants would agree to that..


Any more questions?

[Slasher]

Duyen is only a wind-up and a pretty good one at that too! :D

If I ever get down that way again I'll shout him a couple at Apocalypse....

[duyentranvan]

Dying people often become childish. - Georg Buchner (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgbuchn394012.html)

I'm sorry to hear that guys.

[itsbrokenagain]

duyentranvan -from your post history you appear to be not in your home country also!

[jimmygill]

Ohhhhh jimmy .....you still are one sick bitter and twisted person aren't you!


Of course I am, and reading you ain't gonna cure that.


I would hate to be you.

Its good for you, had you desired to be me... it would take out the last drop of your sweat to come anywhere closer.. stay cosy where you are.

[Massey058]

Indonesia it seems is in a continuous pilot shortage due to not enough training schools but also the fact that locals do not really want to fly silly little turbo-props.

As far as expat hiring goes there are quite a few

Susi Air - C208B/PC-6
SMAC - CASA 212
Merpati - MA60 (but it seems possibly DHC-6 too)
Batavia - 737 Classic (rumour round the traps is they are accepting low hours with type rating
Lion Air - 737-900ER (mainly Eagle Jet P2F; seems more like a prison camp - no multi entry/exit permit with temporary residency)
Wings Air - ATR 72 (taking contract pilots with high time and recent sim checks on ATR)
Garuda - 737 Classic/NG (expansion outpacing pilot supply so taking on contract pilots)

There are others and Regional Group recently advertised for DHC-6 pilots in Indonesia also.

[thornycactus]

hey guys, im just stating the fact here and i ain't being a racist or something.. hey guys, im just stating the fact here and i ain't being a racist or something.. but thats the fact you aussies are doing to the rest of the world.And you guys turn up in an asian airline and start to whine about how bad the rostering guys are treating you and shi*s... If you want facts, go and have a look at the fragrant harbour threads.Nearly everyday you guys cry and whine about something.I seriously don't know why and how you aussies end up in top class airlines like cx but i am certainly sure they would perhaps be the only asian airline which will take guys in with low hours. Today 08:26
Yup...agreed. Nothing to do with racist.;)

but thats the fact you aussies are doing to the rest of the world.And you guys turn up in an asian airline and start to whine about how bad the rostering guys are treating you and shi*s...
Very true... the orang puteh make the most noise.

If you want facts, go and have a look at the fragrant harbour threads.Nearly everyday you guys cry and whine about something.I seriously don't know why and how you aussies end up in top class airlines like cx
Not only in Cathay Pacific. Many other airlines too!

i am certainly sure they would perhaps be the only asian airline which will take guys in with low hours.
Yes...seems to be true. :hmm: CX consider and prefer white people white low hours. It hasn't been changed for all these years,

[training wheels]

Massey058's list is a good place to start for any low timers looking for an airline job in Indonesia. When I did my medical in Jakarta there were quite a few youngish foreign pilots doing the same ... infact, at the time, the number of foreign pilots out numbered locals at the medical centre.

And just to put things into perspective, the airline I'm with doesn't only hire low timers from Australia. We have pilots from India, Japan, France, Korea, Malaysia and New Zealand.

[duyentranvan]

sounds like your talkin about susi air. Yeah maybe you're right.. they probably do take the expats with low hours.Might be worth it for the aussies...its near home.:ok:

[training wheels]

sounds like your talkin about susi air. Yeah maybe you're right.. they probably do take the expats with low hours.Might be worth it for the aussies...its near home.:ok:

No, I'm not taking about Susi Air. .. I'm talking about a real airline with a fleet of Boeing 737s, and multi engine turbo-prop aircraft. Other airlines in Indonesia are also starting to open up to foreign expat pilots as well.

Do you fly in this area? You don't seem to have a clue about what's going on around here.

[duyentranvan]

well i believe you need to be type rated? i dont think they would take u in with low hours and non type rated. And to answer your question, no i dont fly in indonesia.But i have friends who does. :D:D

[training wheels]

well i believe you need to be type rated? i dont think they would take u in with low hours and non type rated.

I can't speak for other airlines in Indonesia, but the one I'm with pays for our type rating but we're bonded for two years. And yes, we do have a lot of low time expat guys and girls.

[drareg]

Hi training wheels, I'm very much interested with what you've posted and would welcome any opportunity to fly. Times are tough and securing a flying job isn't as easy. Would you mind PM-ing me details of the airline you're currently flying with? Would be very much appreciated. :)

[training wheels]

Hi training wheels, I'm very much interested with what you've posted and would welcome any opportunity to fly. Times are tough and securing a flying job isn't as easy. Would you mind PM-ing me details of the airline you're currently flying with? Would be very much appreciated. :)

Mate, all the info is already posted on this thread. Refer to the list that Massey058 has posted. It's all there in black and white. :)

[John Citizen]

duyentranvan -from your post history you appear to be not in your home country also!

hear hear, well written :ok:

[brasmelzuit]

It must be with Garuda.
Lion will bear you with P2F scheme.
Batavia will give you 4 yrs of contract, with crapped-maintained aircraft
Try your luck, although I would've agree with duyen, if aussies (immigration, government, consulates, or whatever ) don't welcome Asians to work in their continent, why would they welcome you?
Just get your hours and go back home. Don't even think of getting upgraded.. :=

[southernskyz]

Mr.duyentranvan said:
go back to where u belong aussie... the asians dont welcome u

How do you know Mr.duyentranvan?

I can tell you that a large Indonesian airline advertised on the afap.org.au website earlier this year, looking for low time copilots for their airline and it
wasn't a Cessna Caravan job.

If Aussies weren't welcome then the airline wouldn't have advertised.
Please have a think about that one mr.duyentranvan.

[John Citizen]

Mr.duyentranvan said:
go back to where u belong aussie... the asians dont welcome u


Then why are so many aussies (and foreigners) employed in Asia and are still being employed now ? :confused:

If they are not welcome then why are they employed there ? :ugh:

Some of the locals might not be welcome to them but this does not stop many people wanting to work there.

What are you doing there Mr Duyentranvan (as a foreigner) ? :ugh:

Don't be such and hypocrite and maybe you should be the one to go back to where you belong (in your own nice words) :p

You say And you guys turn up in an asian airline and start to whine about how bad the rostering guys are treating you and shi*s... If you want facts, go and have a look at the fragrant harbour threads.Nearly everyday you guys cry and whine about something

Have you had a look at the Australian forums lately (Dunnunda...). Aussie pilots whine and cry just as much in Australia. Does this now mean Aussie pilots are not even welcome in Australia ? :confused:

Just because pilots whine and cry does not mean they are not welcome there. :eek:

I have had a look at many of your past posts Duyentranvan. Whenever someone asks a genuine question on pprune you always use it as an opportunity to degrade, humiliate and insult people. Some of your replies are completely outrageous and totally unwarrented. Whats your problem mate ? Hope your not like this in real life.'

[hongkongfooey]

Hi 1013, welcome to Asia buddy :E

There is some good advice here, don't leave Oz to come to some third world s**thole in Asia, where if the diseases don't kill you the pollution will ( talking 'bout HKG, China ).

We are only here because they need us, a point that is lost on those who have not been walking upright for too long ;) If they had enough of their own trained up drivers I can assure you we would not be here ( that is law, not racism ).
Unlike the D/Hs that run Australia, around here they look out for their own, if a local can do the job, they can't hire a foreigner ( yes, that is what we are called )

Not going to get into a slanging match at level 3 ICAO english on here but feel free to PM me.
God luk :}

[japanam]

Does anyone have contact info for Merpati Nusantara Airlines? Webpage only lists e-mail address for marketing division.

Thanks in advance!

[southernskyz]

Japanam:

A person needs a bucket load of money, to leave their country for the purposes of finding a pilot job in a foreign country, especially for low time pilots.

I don't know any low time pilot that's sent a resume/c.v to an aviation company on the other side of the world and they were given a job.

You have to do your research and get on a flight and the people have to see you. That takes a lot of courage to do, as it's like playing a poker machine. Take a punt.

[solowflyer]

How do you apply for positions in an Indonesian (or any other asian co for that matter) company is it a matter of sending cvs or is it a case of show up and knock on doors? I do know things do opperate differentley in this part of the world. What kind of hours would a company opperating say a Twotter or metro require for an fo?

[brasmelzuit]

Knock on the door is a good thing to do in that country.
Recently I heard 23 foreigner just joint the Merpati to fly Twin Otter or MA 60 (china made turboprop). Contracted for 2 yrs, got only 1100 Aus$ a month, to gain hours. They're all low timers.

[training wheels]

The MA60 is a 21 tonne, 56 seat turbo prop with an EFIS cockpit and an FMS. It uses PW 127 engines (same as the ATR). The first group of expats have just completed sim training for the type endorsement and now awaiting for base check and line training to commence. Not all are low timers, some have close to 1000 hours TT, some around the 250 TT mark.

As for the pay, the amount quoted above is the basic monthly salary; you also get flight pay as well as allowances when on duty. Those who are also flight instructors for the flight school are already flying and earning a decent monthly wage. But correct, most are here for the experience and not the money although the money is enough to live comfortably in Indonesia, well for me anyway.

[solowflyer]

i have over 1000 hr but FA multi time How wold they view that or do they require 50 or so + multi

[Latitude1]

Well, boys and girls,if you want to be a pilot and you want to live in Indonesia or any other S.E.Asian country, you will have to put up with the millions of dumb monkeys, filthy dirty pollution, Continually being sick by the crappy, ****ty, disgusting food carts on the streets and not to mention the millions of prostitutes trying to get into your pants everyday of the week.
Well, if thats not enough, you will be expected to work for nothing as a professional pilot, like the dim-wits at Suzi Air or any other bent airline operator here in S.E.Asia.

Yeah, its just Paradise :ugh:

[ZFT]

and you want to live in Indonesia or any other S.E.Asian country, you will have to put up with the millions of dumb monkeys, filthy dirty pollution, Continually being sick by the crappy, ****ty, disgusting food carts on the streets and not to mention the millions of prostitutes trying to get into your pants everyday of the week.Latitude1

You are a grade 1 prat. I live and work with these so called monkeys and some of them are the finest people you will meet. I've never been healthier and I eat regularly off of food carts. As to the millions of prostitutes, I suspect that's the only way would could attract anyone with your attitude.

[pyrofreak]

Hi,

Anyone out there have any contact information for the companies mentioned earlier. I have looked through their websites and can't seem to find any helpful information. Any information would be much appreciated.
I am particularily looking for a contact person for Merpati.

Thanks.

[Latitude1]

Well ZFT, your a real clown and it is obvious that you have been walking around with your eyes closed, like all the other monkeys here in Indonesia.

Get in the real world you chumpy, chump, chump !

Enjoy your food poisoning from your 5 star street cart killers on wheels - :E

[Major Cleve Saville]

Hi Latitude,

Are you a low houred Australian?

[flightasia]

I totally agree with Latitude1, he sound like he has been there and done that not like these other people who have been around for a few weeks!

[Latitude1]

Right on Bro !

I have been up here in Indonesia and right through S.E. Asia for quite a while, and the crap that goes on up here in this bent country is unbelievable.
Any man with his eyes open can see for himself, just how this country operates, especially in aviation.
It`s the huge joke how things are run here and all the clowns and monkeys around here in this polluted dirty country.
If you dont have an iron gut, you will die of food poisoning, thats for sure !

Thanks Flight Asia, I can see that you are walking around with your eyes wide open and you have a degree of commonsense about you :ok:

May " Allah " be with you, when flying the skys up here in this neck of the woods.

[flightasia]

Do yourself a favour and if your really desperate for a job in Indonesia look at any other company first.

[southernskyz]

Latitude1 says:


Right on Bro !

I have been up here in Indonesia and right through S.E. Asia for quite a while, and the crap that goes on up here in this bent country is unbelievable.
Any man with his eyes open can see for himself, just how this country operates, especially in aviation.
It`s the huge joke how things are run here and all the clowns and monkeys around here in this polluted dirty country.
If you dont have an iron gut, you will die of food poisoning, thats for sure !

Thanks Flight Asia, I can see that you are walking around with your eyes wide open and you have a degree of commonsense about you http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

I say:
______

If you had any degree of common sense about you lattitude one?
Then you would get out of there. :D
and you wouldn't be writing crap!

No one has forced you to go there!

If you don't like it, then go home!:D

Today!:D

Flight Asia can carry your bags. :D

[flightasia]

southernskyz, it is nothing about writing crap, everything we have put up here is simple fact and is written so others can be better informed and make better choices.

No one forces anyone to do anything in a free world, and this attitude of "well if you dont like it piss off" or "no one forced you to come" is a very primitive attitude as well.

What your in affect saying is that people should accept anything and just put up with it without question! Then why are these companies hiring western pilots if they dont want change, and what good are we going to do if we just accept it and not push for any change, if every one just accepted things in life then nothing would ever change or advance.

[southernskyz]

Flightasia you said the following:

Latitude1 is totally correct, I would not call them monkeys but indonesians are totally uneducated, uncivilised 3rd world population that has not got any ability to be running a safe airline or any operation that has a bit of organisation. AND

You will get totally sick in indonesia, if your eating the crap on the streets or in 5 star restruents sooner or later you will get sick, these people have no standards and its the same people that are working in hotels or on the streets.AND

Latitude1 is totally correct, I would not call them monkeys but indonesians are totally uneducated, uncivilised 3rd world population that has not got any ability to be running a safe airline or any operation that has a bit of organisation.
_________________________________________________________

Flightasia, now really mister, you have no right to insult people from that part of the world.
It just shows that you are so primitive and have no respect and understanding for other cultures.

You and lattitude one, are still kids that need to grow up.
The only person that's uncivilised and uneducated is yourself and your mate!

The way the aviation scene is run in that country is in accordance with icao standards and you think you're so smart and want to be a hero.

Well you're not a hero but only a loud mouth and a total goose!

You should work in another country that meets your standards!

If you're in Indonesia, then just get out of there!
Lattitude one has left and there's room for you to leave also!
That's all i want to say about this, you can send me a p.m.
Silly Boy.

[Massey058]

Flightasia, now really mister, you have no right to insult people from that part of the world.
It just shows that you are so primitive and have no respect and understanding for other cultures.

You and lattitude one, are still kids that need to grow up.
The only person that's uncivilised and uneducated is yourself and your mate!

The way the aviation scene is run in that country is in accordance with icao standards and you think you're so smart and want to be a hero.

Well you're not a hero but only a loud mouth and a total goose!

You should work in another country that meets your standards!

If you're in Indonesia, then just get out of there!
Lattitude one has left and there's room for you to leave also!

I don't necessarily agree with either Latitude1 or flightasia but if I were a right-wing nutter I might just call PC nonsense on your argument.

You may know that Indonesian aviation as a whole is rated very poorly by both the EU and the FAA. Primarily this is because of the poor oversight by the local aviation authority, DGCA.

To say that the aviation scene in Indonesia is run in accordance with ICAO is a tad naive. In parts yes but I am sure ICAO themselves would say vast improvements are needed.

Does this mean that an expat coming to work in Indonesia can come and slag off all that is done? Well if done constructively is there that much of an issue? Indonesia needs to improve, in many circles wants to improve. The safety record is still appalling and if expats can bring their training and ideas to a country and help improve its safety outcomes then that is surely positive.

Latitude1 and flightasia have spoken some truth in what they say, they just haven't said it very constructively (but this is a Professional Pilots Rumour Network after all). The reality is that Indonesia has a very poor education system, immense ingrained corruption and a huge wealth divide. This doesn't mean that all Indonesians in the aviation system are dangerous but the dynamics of this country make it harder to break out of the mould and push for change.

Providing they come with the right attitude there is the potential for expats to come and try and help improve Indonesian aviation. At the end of the day an expat has more of an opportunity to speak out or 'do the right thing' because they can pack up and leave, whereas a national might not be able to take such risks if they don't want to jeopardise their career in their home country.

[southernskyz]

Massey058, i'm commenting on the insulting comments the other two users have posted, about their remarks on the culture in that country.

If the other two users don't like the culture and food in that country,
then they should just get out of there!

You are another hero, who wants to change the system over there.
Just remember that any expat that comes there, is just a visitor in that country, who has to respect the local rules and business culture over there.

Don't give me this crap that because someone is an expat, they're
going to tell the Indonesians how to run their business and aviation
affairs in their own country!

Hello! Who the hell are you guys!
You haven't got the balls to tell the Indonesians what you think when you
see them, but you quite comfortable to open your big mouth here,
where no one can see you!

Go and tell the Indonesians how they should improve their aviation scene!
You can't!
Then don't be a hero like your other two mates!

[Massey058]

Gee you might want to actually read before sprouting off rubbish.

It's about actions, not rhetoric. All I'm saying is that you do what you can. Making good decisions and not killing anyone in the process is one way.

Like I said I don't agree with Latitude1 or flightasia. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't change that.

Maybe take a chill pill. And sort out that defeatist attitude.

[overhere]

All of the above aside, what's the chance of an Australian getting a run in Indonesia or Singapore with around 900hrs and a new B737 or A320 rating?

[flightasia]

@ overhere. very good chances, i know many people who have but its all about walking in the door on the right day.

@ Massey058, well said, I didnt mean my commits to be a personal attack on Indonesians, but the simple fact is they dont and cant have the same educations, training and safety culture this is built up into a western person from birth.

@ southernskyz. as far a the food, I love indonesian food, but its not an attack again on the people to say that they dont have any food hygiene standards and that western people will get sick sooner or later, another Fact is that the most major sickness in indonesian among there own people is food or water poisoning, there is nothing saying something is wrong and needs changing for the better of there own people.

As for ICAO standards well I call tell you loud and clear that Indonesia does not maintain ICAO standards at all and for you to even make that statement tells me the you have not flown in Indonesia at all or are walking around with your eyes closes, or you have got no idea what ICAO standards are.

ICAO themselves have said Indonesia does not comply with ICAO standards, The DGAC does not company with ICAO standards, and most airlines (maybe with the exemption of Garuda) again dont company with ICAO standards.

The FAA has issued a clear report and said that the Indonesian Government (DGAC) does not have any expertise or experience to regulate airlines, so the airlines are running unregulated or self regulated in Garudas case. The DGAC runs on corruption and when pilots and airlines can get licences by just paying money its always going to be the same.