View Full Version : French pilots lift call for strike

Me Myself
3rd Nov 2010, 17:38
Ok I know, the lot of ya will say.......... AGAIN ! Where is the news ? Specially after the 3 weeks of pure madness the country went through.
However the issue was a hot one :
While we were all queuing up for hours in the hope to get a pint of petrol, the governement was already working on a new budget bill for the chronically money bleeding social security.
The plan was to tax, both employers and employees for any benefit granted outside of the compagny even for those part of the same group.
This would have meant having to pay a full fare on a ZED ticket, or any airline, member of the Air France KLM group. City Jet, Brittair etc...............and of course the same for all employees working for these compagnies regarding Air France main line.
It would also have included car rentals, hotel rooms, in short everything that makes this profession a nice one.
Air France made it very plain that, should this be the case, they would simply pull the plug on staff travel creating havoc among all the commuting community, roughly 60 % of AF cabin and tech crew.

After a rather eventfull 5 days, the Senate agreed to rewrite the infamous amendment and we're back to normal as of tonight.

According to a newspaper article, the distinguisged MP who wrote this lunacy of a bill, said " AF staffs are just behaving histerically, we never intended to target them "
It was a bit like hearing Bill Clinton saying " I didn't have a sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky "

All the above to ask you all a simple question :

Do you people and your employer get to pay taxes on staff travel and other freebies ?
I'm sure this thread will be moved to terms and endearments but in the meantime I'd love a feedback from our european or Australasian colleagues.

3rd Nov 2010, 17:47
Do you people and your employer get to pay taxes on staff travel and other freebies ?
In Australia, Fringe Benefit Tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fringe_Benefits_Tax_(Australia)) has been in place since the early '90s.

It would also have included car rentals, hotel rooms, in short everything that makes this profession a nice one.
You're sure?? Items accrued in order to complete a job of work - like a hotel room on a trip - are not benefits. I find it difficult to believe these would have been included.

Gi Dem Dub
3rd Nov 2010, 18:46
At least the french ARE fighting for their conditions... unlike some others who are only good at whining on here....:}

3rd Nov 2010, 19:55
Do you people and your employer get to pay taxes on staff travel and other freebies ?

Yes, we do in Germany, have been doing so for ages, and not just us ( at a big airline ) but also others at Opel, Daimler, anywhere where employees get staff discounts - AFAIK up to 2.500 € benefit.

No reason for "pure madness".

Get real.

3rd Nov 2010, 20:06
As of next year we have to pay the newly introduced aviation tax on our reduced tickets as well, which makes commuting more costly.

Actually up to 2400€ of fringe benefits per year it is tax free, however everything above will be taxed.

And of course our retirement age is 67, which begs the question how a pilot will survive the two years between forced end of contract at 65 and retirement age, after all we are not allowed to fly commercially past 65.

Me Myself
3rd Nov 2010, 22:07
The questions are "Should a free travel benefit be considered "income" you have received (albeit not in cash)

Aussie mate !
1/ These, even untaxed are far from FREE benefits. I have no qualm paying airport taxes pertaining to the ticket, which we do.
2/ A taxed " benefit " and that's a no brainer................is no longer a benefit.
3/ The governement was being very selective, in short leaving the public sector out, National Railway, National Electricity, and a long list of others like Bordeaux Harbour, who enjoy special status in the fiscal realm and who, in matter of blocking a country, have proved they master the skill like an art.
Even the distinguished members of parliament spared themselves in the taxing process and when it comes to benefits they are top of their class.

So yes, having briefly listed the above, I would have stayed under the dunna instead of doing an early.
You see, I am all for fiscal justice as long as everyone caughs up. I just hate being taken for a ride.
I've seen more strikes in Australia than I would have wished, trust me and if memory serves, 1989 may have been a good year for Bordeaux wines.........not so spiffing for poor aussie pilots sods though.

BUT, I am not really interested in getting into an argument but for facts about what happens in other countries.
Who knows, nicely and politely worded, you might even convince me.

For those of you who understand frogish, here the list of all the different bodies exempted of this fringe benefit taxation.
Try to take some of these head on...................!

Régime des Militaires Caisse Nationale Militaire de Sécurité Sociale CNMSS
Régime de la SNCF Caisse de prévoyance et de retraite de la SNCF CPRPSNCF
Régime des Clercs et employés de Notaire Caisse de Retraite et de Prévoyance des Clercs et Employés de Notaires CRPCEN
Régime de la Chambre de Commerce et d’Industrie de Paris Chambre de Commerce et d’Industrie de Paris CCIP
Régime de la RATP Unité Protection et Prestations Sociales de la RATP PEPS RATP
Régime de la RATP Caisse de Retraite du Personnel de la RATP CRP RATP
Régime des Marins Etablissement National des Invalides de la Marine ENIM
Régime des Industries Electriques et Gazières Caisse Nationale des Industries Electriques et Gazières CNIEG
Régime des Cultes Caisse d’Assurance Vieillesse et Maladie des Cultes CAVIMAC
Régime du Senat Caisse autonome de Sécurité sociale du Sénat CASS SENAT
Régime des Mines Caisse des Dépôts et Consignations - Retraites des Mines CDC
Régime des Mines Caisse Autonome Nationale de la Sécurité Sociale dans les Mines CANSSM
Régime des ouvriers des établissements industriels de l’Etat Caisse des Dépôts et Consignations CDC
Régime des agents des collectivités locales Caisse des Dépôts et Consignations CDC
Régime de l’Assemblée Nationale Fonds de sécurité sociale de l’Assemblée Nationale FSS Assemblée nationale
Régime des personnels de l’Opéra National de Paris Caisse de Retraites des Personnels de l’Opéra de Paris
Régime de la Comédie Française Comédie Française
Régime du Port autonome de Bordeaux Caisse de Prévoyance du Personnel Titulaire du Port Autonome de Bordeaux

3rd Nov 2010, 22:35
It is getting to the realms of stupidity to expect, or willingly accept,to be penalised for a "perk" of the job.Methinks some of the Ozzies/Rosbif here are just lowering themselves to Frog Baiting. Personally I am glad that you (as a pilot body) grew a pair and were willing to do something about it if needed, unlike the UK mentality of just bending further over to facilitate the entry :rolleyes:
As usual it is a bankrupt govts need for cash ,jealousy ,and pure inviduous malice that drives this. Yes you use staff travel frequently to commute, maybe if it wasn't so cheap you would all have to re-locate to Ile de France just to keep all the jealous morons happy (why should he "live" in a nice part of unpopulated France and only " commute" to this hell hole when I can't? )
Er just a minute, maybe that is one of the reasons he does the job/works for AF ?

The level of malevolant jealousy directed at airline staff (& pilots in particular) sometimes from other employee groups within an airline, is disgusting.
Perhaps if the same venom was directed at other groups (politicians & local govt big-wigs for starters) in accord with how much they trouser in benefits per annum we wouldn't be in the mess we are in & be much less in need of those "fringe benefits," as we would have less taxes to pay in the first instance in our efforts to support the freeloaders.

3rd Nov 2010, 23:04
Yes, we do in Germany, have been doing so for ages, and not just us ( at a big airline ) but also others at Opel, Daimler, anywhere where employees get staff discounts - AFAIK up to 2.500 € benefit.

The same goes for many countries. What´s the problem?

4th Nov 2010, 00:11
A taxed " benefit " and that's a no brainer................is no longer a benefit.
That is (kind of) the point. You shouldn't be able to receive "benefits" free of tax.

The FBT (Fringe Benefits Tax) in Australia came about because, through the 80s, a large amount of general tax avoidance in the management sector appeared as contracts became re-written to reduce the (taxed) cash salary paid by including tax free "benefits" such as cars, computers, housing, schooling, lunches etc etc in the contract instead.

In that sense it is a fair tax, as contracts such as those above can only be negotiated individually. That meant they were not available to general workers - so the tax stopped an unfair tax avoidance.

If, as you have said, the tax the French government was proposing was unfair - in that it wasn't setting a general tax rule for all but was targeted at individual industries - then yes, it was correct to fight it.

If they re-write the law to make it apply to all, I suppose you will support it then? ;)

4th Nov 2010, 06:37
I have worked on the western side of the Atlantic and have seen a dramatic decrease in benefits, perks, morale etc. What really annoyed me was (or is) this blind obedience and acceptance of decreasing qol amongst most pilots. The major failure called ALPA. Management trying to push for even more for you to give up. The result seems frightening: I have never heard of so many pilots in their 5000-10000 hour experience range give up their profession. With the rise of LCCs in Europe the social status of being a pilot might decrease as it has in the US. What I have learned is: Once you give up part of your qol, you will never get it back.

4th Nov 2010, 06:57
The real problem is that rules are not the same in all EEC countries at least.
They created Europe only for business and not for citizens.
They (politicians and technocRATS) are only looking for the lowest social rules of each country as to be designed to all others.
Froggies have one of the best medical and retirement coverage in Europe are they right or wrong to fight for it?
Nationalism is over keep it in mind:} and think global....

Me Myself
4th Nov 2010, 07:57
Why isn t towed out to sea ???
Well, it is making money for one thing and it would be a shame to get rid of it don't you think. Well, no you don't.
You should wear your tin hat when getting out of the house. The sun is very unforgiving in DubaI.

i agree, there must be some kind of discipline in the amount of tolerated benefits and MP's claim this was the aim of the proposed bill. In some cases it does exeed the limit of decency. However, I don't think staff travel fits that description, or the stupid rented car you rent while on vacation.
We are far from tax evading CEO's.
That's where I just start laughing. Never have I seen something so badly written that only creates colateral damage and leaves out a lot of potentially socially dangerous people.
The part I didn't explain well enough is that compagnies would have had to pay taxes on theses fringe benefits and AF was clearly against it threatening to ditch staff travel all together. Totally un-acceptable.
So call us dinosaurs if you will, there is no way we were goung to give up what determines the quality of life of so many who live out of Paris.

Get real ? Why don't you jester grow a pair of you know what and try to do the same ? But, after all it's your life

Me Myself
4th Nov 2010, 11:59

When one demographic takes another demographic head on, if memory serves ...............one calls that civil war.
Fiscal fairness ( what a contradiction in terms ) only applies if EVERY citizen is taxed and according to his personal income and that includes fringe benefits.
German police scout the motorways between Germany and Austria trying to snitch tax evaders carrying large suitcases of cash, Austria, specially Vorarlberg, enjoying rather relaxed rules when it comes to foreign money.
Lichentsein is full of hidden money from all corners of the world, mostly anglo-saxon.
Jersey, only a few miles from our shores harbours off shore compagnies.
Do not, I say again, do not lecture me on what it means to be a good citizen when what is at stake is just a few trolley dolleys or techies commuting from and to work.
It is any government's job to ensure no one is kept out of the tax paying game.
My 2 years old son could have explained that to you if he wasn't too busy working on his PHD.

Forget the tin hat.............the ice box will do.

Anyway, I sort of got the info I was after.