BA: financially, when is it no longer worth it?

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Ladies and gentlemen,

I need to do some serious number crunching. Currently at EZY and considering BA. If I was 25, it would be a simple decision. But I'm getting dangerously close to 40 and I'm not sure the numbers add up.

Based on PPJN info, I put a spreadsheet together comparing total income over 25 years (let's assume I'll be 40 when I get in). In my spreadsheet I considered the worst case scenario where HMRC will tax flight and duty pay. They've been doing that at EZY since April, so you never know.

The other factor included in the spreadsheet is pension. EZY contribute 9% and BA 12%, so I accounted for an extra 11% personal contribution for EZY and 8% BA (I want total to be 20%).

Finally, I used Captain income for EZY (including bonus) since I am close to command course). For BA I used command at year 11 for short haul.

The numbers below are my best guess for BA NET monthly income, including flight/duty pay, after pension contribution for 25 years:


1 3318
2 3433
3 3548
4 3663
5 3778
6 3893
7 4008
8 4123
9 4238
10 4353
11 5344
12 5452
13 5560
14 5668
15 5776
16 5884
17 5992
18 6100
19 6208
20 6316
21 6424
22 6532
23 6640
24 6748
25 6856

If I add it all up over 25 years, it gives me £1.55 million. EZY total gives me £1.60 millions, so it's pretty much the same. EXCEPT THAT... my pension would be far better with EZY because I would earn more earlier.

If you work for BA, could you please check your years of service and compare you monthly NET with the figures above? Am I vaguely close to actual numbers? Remember this is with an additional 8% pension contribution.

Best regards,

P

[NigelOnDraft]

P

You've done the research, so don't have much to add on the ££ numbers.

My only comment would be <<For BA I used command at year 11 for short haul>> I would say that is VERY optimistic. You could easily join BA now at age 40, and never get a SH command :{ At 40 you will be older than most of your fellow DEP/SSP entrants, and there are a lot of BA pilots well <40 now.

If you asked me for a "best guess" I would work your figures again for a SH command at year 15, but be prepared for year 20.

NoD

[hunterboy]

Permafrost I reckon your figures are about right (at first inspection)
However, can you see yourself living the Easyjet lifestyle for another 20 years? The nice thing about BA is that you can chop and change fleets/destinations and get to see a bit of the world. Whether that is worth the difference in cash is up to you.

[Craggenmore]

Good research P. I don't work for BA but we are very similar;)

If 15 to 20 years to SH command is correct (as per Nigel's post,) then I can assume that the seniority list must be equally as large. In which case you will need to consider having no weekends free for years and flying the bid lines that no one senior wishes to fly as they're not popular trips.

To have researched this so well and thoroughly I'm guessing that you're looking to find where's best to spend the heavyweight earning period of your career. If you're in a position to consider it then perhaps a move to the M.E would suit you better at your age.

If all goes well, there's a high probability to become a skipper on a 330/340/350/380 or 777 within 6-8 years. Although its London prices out there (so nothing new to me) there are very, very few bills to pay with friends of mine earning large sums of tax free money with only a mobile phone and internet charges to pay for as a regular outgoing. (I'm sure you have friends out there as well.)

With the UK coalition govt. cutting middle class benefits, taxes rising and general costs rising like petrol, house and car insurance, it could be a good time to move.

Horses for courses I guess.

[Sygyzy]

The other consideration as you approach 'half-life is whether you'll still be flying in 25 years. I retired some years ago however I notice there is a small but significant/growing number of my ex colleagues who wouldn't be able to hold a licence even though they're under 65. There are others who have quit after 60 but not continued to 65.

BA is very much the curates egg. (Other threads discuss whether it's the grail or not). If you have the opportunity for a command pretty soon I'd take it. You'd be more 'saleable' with command hours than with F/O hours should you ever think of moving to another carrier. From my recollection (and this may be out of date now) 'early' (somewhat out of seniority or GSS) commands are sometimes available 'in the regions' with BA, but would you wish to move house/family or commute at age say, 55 for one of those (ie not LHR/LGW) as you see your projections of 15 years ago running awry.

The devil you know, beware what you wish for etc.

S:hmm:

[Mooney12]

There are no opportunities with BA for regional commands really. It's Heathrow or Gatwick only. Possibilities with GSS in Standstead as well as openskies.

Also, I would say 15 years to a shorthaul command is VERY pessimistic!! Up until the recession hit, it was 7 - 8 years. What it will be in two years times nobody knows. That depends on retirement/expansion etc... Certainly won't be as long as 15 years though!!

[bingofuel]

Surely by age 40 you have realised that there is more to life than money and quality of life is much more important.

[Wingswinger]

P,

As one who did it in the late 1980s (left the RAF, joined BA at age 38, retired at 55 - 6 months "too old" to stay :{, now in a well-known LoCo until 65 :eek: ):

It was worth it for me - I had a command at LHR in 9 years and could have had one at LGW after 3 years as a result of the Dan-Air acquisition if I had bid for it. I could also have had a 744 command for my last 3 years if I had bid for it.

However, if the current situation vis-a-vis the pilot demographic profile had pertained then I would not have joined which means, of course, I wouldn't do it now if I was magically 38 again.

I think you'll have a far more rewarding and progressive career if you don't join BA - assuming that you wish to go for promotion beyond being a line captain.

Timing is all. Now is not the time for mature joiners IMHO.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Thanks to all for the feedback so far, keep it coming :ok:

Because it's not impossible I would have to wait 15 years even for SH command, plus the issue of compound interest vis-a-vis the old pension fund, it's likely that I would be worse off financially with BA.

Craggs, financially I can't fault your sand pit argument. But I just don't want to live there. I did the expat thing for a few years in my twenties and got fed up with it eventually. Most people do. Been there done that. Wife likes her job, kids like their school. I know what you mean about what lies ahead in the UK though :{

Sygyzy Something that's definitely at the back of my mind. With BA I will very much rely on age 55-65 to bring me the highest income. Dangerous.

Bingofuel, you've gone to the heart of the issue. It's NOT all about the money. In my previous career, I found out the hard way on two occasions that a more lucrative job can also make you miserable when you hate the job.

So let's hear it from previous EZY->BA shifters. Is the grass greener?

P

[Wirbelsturm]

LH -

Aircraft are great, new fleets coming in with the 380, the 787 and (possibly) the A350 XWB.

Varied destinations when you are senior enough to bid!

Hotels are excellent. Most city centre and quiet

Rosters are getting tighter but not too tight yet, will have to see when all of the Colgen Air mud settles and the FAA/EASA FTL agreements get hammered out.

Very stable.

SH -

Busy but fun.

Great hotels, great destinations. Most hotels are city centre well away from the airport.

The length of the night stops can run short sometimes. However this can be balanced by standover days and lengthier stops if bid for. Sometimes its just nice to switch the jet off and go look around where you've flown to!

If you get in at the start of a recruitment phase you can gain control of your roster quite quickly and thus your time off and your variable pay.

Very stable.

Is it about money? If that is your primary driver then as you have intimated BA is probably not going to be the thing for you. If it is about variety, the ability to mix SH and LH and the ability to look around the places you fly to then possibly, yes BA could do it for you.

Time to command is a variable feast as NOD states. IF the company expands (bear in mind there is very little space at LHR) then TTC could come down. There has been little movement for the past 5 years mind you which means there are many, many SFO's awaiting their turn which will slow things down for current joiners. The pension changes might be having a fairly dramatic effect at the moment though as those on the top find they can't syphon off excess into AVC's as they used to.

Food for thought.

[pilotsince99]

Second you might want to consider is time away from home. BA is doing a lot of nightstops, you might like it, you might not. When you are commuting it could be great, but if you only live in close distance from the airport, being home almost every night could be invaluable as well.

I have considered applying, but this was one of the main reasons for me to stay at easy.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

I am surprised that no one so far has said my estimated figures were a bit low. Like I said, I assumed tax on full flight and duty pay (in case it changes).

That's why I initially posted my estimated figures here. I had often heard that after 8 years or so at BA you would end up with a salary similar to EZY captain. Not by a long shot according to my spreadsheet! If you include the 15% bonus, I make it about 5,500 a month for EZY vs 4,123 for BA. That's not small change!

I agree with those who said that lifestyle if worth sacrificing some income. But I still need to pay the mortgage and put the kids through school and university!

P

[Wirbelsturm]

Permafrost,

As you asked I would suggest that, dependent upon working patterns and taking into account the pay cut we all took, you are about £750-£1000 adrift on your net income figures.

Based on my personal figures anyway.

[NigelOnDraft]

As other posters have made clear, there is far more to a shift to BA than £££. But since it is the title of the thread, let me expand on "Time to Command".

Factors one needs to assess/determine to make an educated guess:

Age Profile of current BA pilots. Essentially max 58, then guess maybe an ~even distribution down to ~25.
Average Retirrement age of BA Pilots. Hard to say, but I'd guess at ~62 - majority go on as long as possible, balanced by a few going earlier, voluntarily or involuntarily. But if the retirement age increases further :=
Change in pilot numbers. Has not changed much over last 15years, and not BA's aim/ability to "expand" much. Slight increase in aircraft numbers coming up, but if they get painted white/orange and red not a lot of use for BA Pilot numbers :(
P1 v P2 ratio. Substantially <50%, and with any expansion more LH orientated, will further reduce.
How many P2s do not take a Command when they could? Desire for LH / Commuting means this is good number - but pay / tax / Pension implications could affect it.
Take up of Part Time. Likely to increase, and hopefully by P1s :ok:
IB factor ???? Do not forget there is not really an airline called "BA" now... it is a subset of IAG, and who knows what, if any, the implications will be for the "BA Pilot Seniority list/numbers" :ooh:

I made an analysis / best guess before joining BA in 1996, and came up with 7-8 years, and was lucky enough for the numbers to make it 6.5. But when I joined, a new LHR Capt on the then "junior fleet" (757/767) was ~22yrs.

NoD

[DutchBird-757]

BA: financially, when is it no longer worth it?
When you decide to join their BA Cityflyer ops. Sorry, just couldn't resist... ;)

[SR71]

You can't just add the figures up can you...you need a NPV analysis as the value of £6500/month 25 years from now isn't what its worth today.

Let some of the old guys tell you what their cash was worth 25 years ago?

Of course if you assume your pay rises keep pace with inflation then the "real" value of the cash is maintained.

But that certainly isn't the case with my pay packet over the last 10 years!

Lastly, but not leastly, if you're able to pay your £400K/20 years mortgage off 10 years early by earning earlier in your career rather than later, you'll save yourself...about £125K if the interest rate is 5%.

At 10%, you'll save yourself £289K.

Statistically, with health issues being more likely to rear their ugly head in later life, earning early in your career in such an uncertain world has got to be a good thing.

If the break-even point was age 50, rather than age 60, different ball game.

FWIW.

[FliegerTiger]

Not exactly finance related, but can anybody tell me about the healthcare plan provided by BA? How would this work for somebody living outside the UK (Mainland Europe)?

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Thanks again chaps.

NOD, let me have a got at your algorithm..

Very few retirements for next four years, since max age 58 and average retirement 62.

Even spread from 25 to 58, giving 33 years. So plus four, that's 37.

Hard for me to gauge the whole ratio of SH/LH migrations, as well as P1/P2 ratio, but I'm going to make a blind guess that the decreasing P1/P2 ratio might be compensated for by the amount of P1s going part time and P2s not taking SH commands.

So 37/2= 19-ish. To that I will apply what seems to have been the spread between SH/LH time to command: 7 years.

Final guess for SH command 19-7=12. Minimum, of course.

Like you said, it's not all about the money. But I need data for financial planning. My house is paid off but I have two young children and a wife who is considering starting a business. When did it all get so complicated? :rolleyes:

Cheers,

P

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You do know that easyJet new Captains in Rome and Milan are taking home net of tax €9,000 a month every month and sometime more if busy? That's more than the BA SFO net 25 year point in Sterling. I mean if the sun the skiing and la dolce vita is putting you off then I fully understand why you'd prefer to stay local to the M25...

Spain is pretty much the same.


WWW

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Yes but can the Milan chaps fly 5 four sector days in a row for 25 years?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

What? 20 1.5hr sectors from ILS to ILS in a new A320 followed by 4 or 3 days off? For €9k take home a month. Err, Yes.

If money is the topic its tricky to beat €2,250 a week net.


WWW

[hoody_mcboob]

I'm based in Italy as an F/O with easy taking home 5500-6200 euros per month. The present workrate isn't sustainable though, I've been here for 2 years now, and with easy for 4 in total, its bloody tiring! I dont honestly think you could count on working a full career in low cost.

As an aside the present sterling/euro rate is very flattering to a euro salary. However, if you work out here you pay bills etc in euros, also who's to say where the rate will go in future?

just my 2 cents, euro cents obviously ;)

[SpGo]

WWW you are comparing apples with pears.
If I use the exchange rate of 10 years ago, a BA capt living in NCE, and thus paying no tax, made 15000€/month! So relying on todays exchange rates and loopholes in the tax laws or special tax agreements isn't the way to go if you want to make a long term decision.

[PPRuNeUser0204]

If I was younger I'd apply to BA, just for the career and the options it offers. Life isn't all about money.

However my friends in BA regularly do 900 hours longhaul. Quite what the medical implications of long term deep night and multiple timezone changes over a potential 30000hr career is going to be interesting.

Not sure how many hours they average on shorthaul at LHR?

However I'm not young anymore, LHS and like being home pretty much everynight so I'll stick with what I've got.....

[stakeknife]

Its surely all personal choice. As for sustainability of EZY lifestyle, I have been in the orange machine for 9 years and find it fine. I do think the variants in LH/SH would be the main attraction at BA but pay and how hard you work isn't too different. I guess as said before, do you want to travel loads and see places or do you prefer to be at home most nights. I certainly wouldn't swap what I have right now but that is largely down to a good home lifestyle in a good base!

Either way, its a nice choice to have and I doubt either would lead to gnashing of teeth ad ashcloth wearing!!

Good luck :ok:

[Number Cruncher]

I was under the impression that at BA, with the right seniority, you have the ability to plan your own life how you want it i.e. if you don't want the nightstops you don't bid for that type of roster and stay home every (most) nights? If you want a night in Rome, Madrid or Budapest you bid for it?

Any BA bod care to comment?

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Indeed, the more I read the comments here and the more I think about it all, it's going to come down to personal choice. Horses for courses. Giving up 5/4/5/3 and most nights at home would certainly be hard though!

Staff travel is a big part of it for me. I have close relatives in many parts of the world and besides the fact that it's limited to Europe (mostly), EZY staff travel is rubbish.

Thanks for all the feedback so far. Would be nice to hear from ex-EZYs at BA :ok:

P

[Tall Boy]

Yes but can the Milan chaps fly 5 four sector days in a row for 25 years?

Touche! This is the big question. If it wasn't the case then I wouldn't be going to a BA interview in a couple of weeks!

[easy]

Flew long haul for 6.5 years, totally knackered and v.v fatigued... heaven was two weeks in the same time zone! Spent the past 10+ years with the Orange Order, some weeks honestly tired from too many earlies, sometimes fatigued from 20 sectors in five days, but never as bone numbingly knackered as from long haul with its Jet Lag and fatigue. Yes, sometimes you fly 20/5, but never all f*%@g year round! Remember, mud is the same consistency on both sides of the fence.

Having said that, If I were a lot, lot younger (max late 20's), then I'd still go for the BA option. Anything later, get your jet command, then if you're really bored, go for expat command (Korean, Etihad etc..), but don't expect to come home when you've had enough.

easy

[SR71]

5 or 6 years ago I was flying up to 24 sectors a week, 890hrs/year, in the RHS.

Now, with the same airline, I fly half that in the LHS.

Talking about what is sustainable, I wonder how many people in other walks of life, who are taking home €9,000/month net, are working less than 11.45x5 hrs/week i.e., less than 60hrs/week and are able to exploit tax regulations to do so?

No doubt someone will find an exception to the rule, but there is no free lunch these days.

It is purely my own observation, but those people who earn a similar wage to me in different professions are working a lot harder than me in the LOCO industry.

Having worked in another profession and earned nowhere near what I do now, I can do the LOCO thing for the next 25 years.

I will have to as the West tries to claw itself back from the brink of bankruptcy.

[NigelOnDraft]

P

NOD, let me have a got at your algorithm..Good effort! You took most of the hints I was making...

One disagreement To that I will apply what seems to have been the spread between SH/LH time to command: 7 yearsMy "logic" was based on earliest / SH command. So I would agree with 19yrs, not with the "-7 SH" factor you applied.

Given the relatively good P2 long term pay, and better (?) lifestyle, BA might still be a good bet, but if you needed a command at some defined point to make it worthwhile, I'd be wary :suspect:

NoD

[Maverick83]

Sorry about the off-topic, but since it has been raised, how easy is it to change base at EZY? (no pun). If you were a Spanish/Italian national based in the UK, what are your chances of getting a move to those bases? Any requirements? (apart from the obvious that there's a vacancy there...)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You stick you name on the waiting list. After some months\years you get to the top and the next vacancy arising is yours. To move from the UK to a Spanish or Italian base in either seat is a matter of a year or so's wait presently. Bases vary. Gatwick or Luton is fairly easy to get into. Other regional bases such as North Somerset have decade long waiting lists.

Looking at the logbook I have done 787hrs in the last rolling 12 months. Looking at the payslips I have earned (Basic+Sector pay) £104k with pension, bonuses, insurances and share schemes on top of that figure. Without going Jedi and becoming a trainer that's about the top for the UK contract.

All the French, Spanish and Italian contracts pay >30% more than that.


New payscales are currently in negotiation and should be backdated to Sept2010 with an expectation of at least 5%, or, some significant lifestyle improvements. The company has put £5,000,000 on the table as a pre-negotiation opener.

Can't see the point of BA shorthaul from the money angle and the industrial relations 'climate' is something I could do without every day.. Is there still a cheeseboard though?


WWW

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Maverick 83 - you are right, it is way off topic and not really honouring to the genuine questions being asked.

For what it is worth, I am very sympathetic to those who wish to go to BA. There is some deep lingering doubt deep within all of us that feels somehow we have not really 'made it' unless we have made it with BA or our equivalent national carrier. And that is what I would like to address. This is essentially an illusion and has led many people to make crazy decisions that amount to career suicide in pursuit of a dream that really has no foundation. Permafrost ATPL is a sincere guy who genuinely wants to do the right thing. The evidence is simply overwhelming that the right thing is not to go to BA - yet the desire still lingers. He is about to be a captain at easyJet, can work anywhere in Europe, earn vast sums of money and still get home to to his lovely wife and kids. He also will work the 5/3/5/4 roster pattern which is a godsend to any aviator. I do not in any way knock BA - they are a great company with a fine history. If you are 24 then there is really nothing to discuss. If you are 40 then you are potentially making a catastrophic error of judgement driven by that indefinable yet palpable inner doubt which says you have to take BA when it is on offer. I fully understand the temptation but the reality is potentially very different. No company has a guaranteed future - BA and easyJet certainly do not. Nonetheless, right now easyJet is a very safe place to be with fantastic promotion opportunities if you are in the right place on the command list. Why throw that away and deliberately decide to spend night after night away from your family when you do not have to? The argument against easyJet is that no one could keep up that pace for ever - it is no different to the pace of life in SH at BA. From me, it is a no-brainer for someone of that age and stage in his career - don't listen to the voices! I genuinely wish you well, but refer you back to my first point - this is being driven by a completely understandable, but essentially irrational, feeling about what 'making it' really means. You are undoubtedly a capable, competent guy - you do not have to prove that by going to BA. I genuinely would wish you well, but any true mate would be warning you that at your age you could find yourself waiting for an eternity to get even a short-haul command. You need to be careful about being driven into a decision that takes you away from your family and into many years of utter professional frustration. Best of luck whatever you decide.

[Dutchjock]

Hi P,

I made the move from EZY to BA during the last recruitment drive. I got my command with EZY at a very young age, but couldn't stand the thought of doing the same thing for another 30-odd years and secondly the 5 earlys where killing me.

I was lucky enough to go straight to LH, and I have to say I love it. As someone said earlier, the nights out of bed are very tiring but you're knackered in a very different way. Assuming you do 4 trips a month, of which half are night flights, you're only out of bed for 4 nights a month.

Being very junior I get what's left at the bottom of the pile, but on my fleet that's still a good mix of trips. If you're a family man and appreciate being at home at the weekend, you might be disappointed though.


As I haven't done shorthaul in BA I can't really say too much about it, but it seems they have to be doing many more duty hours than at EZY if they fly 900 hrs a year.

Money wise in your case my guess is you would probably be better of at EZY :eek:

It's a lifestyle choice. Less time at home, more time enjoying work, more control over roster (eventually), choice of fleets etc.

With all due respect, worst case you might not pass the selection, or might not get your command for whatever reason, so maybe you should just give it your best shot and see if you have the luxury to decide?

Good luck with whatever you decide :ok:

[Dutchjock]

NSF,

I understand what you're saying, but I think you make quite a few assumptions that might be true for you, but not necessarily for everyone:

I've never felt I hadn't "made it" if I didn't get to fly for a national airline. I just fancied a choice of SH and LH over my carreer, and a "good" company to achieve that. I'm not married to BA: they provide what I want, and I provide what they want (well so far anyway:})

5/4/5/3 is not a godsend for every aviator, it was one of my main reasons for leaving EZY

Your argument that the pace of SH in BA is probably similar to EZY might be true, but you have the opportunity to change fleets to a lifestyle that does suit you. If you change your mind or your personal circumstances change you change fleets again. That's the upside.

You are undoubtedly a capable, competent guy - you do not have to prove that by going to BA

I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but I find that very condescending. This guy isn't trying to impress his mates, he's just trying to make an informed decision

I do agree with you that it's a very important decision. And even a SH command will take an eternity. But a command is not the holy grail for everyone either.

Just my thoughts, and no, I don't do BA recruitment

[carbheatout]

Why throw that away and deliberately decide to spend night after night away from your family

NSF please excuse my ignorance. If you (at EZY) are on a row of late duties is it possible that you can be home at around midnight (give or take) five nights in a row? i.e. when your wife and kids have gone to bed? Is the 5,4,5,3 really as good as it cracks up to be? On the flip side is it possible you have to be up at the crack of dawn for a row of early duties?

I really ask out of genuine interest.

Thanks

[Permafrost_ATPL]

NSF, I know what you are trying to say and there are probably individuals out there who have an irrational desire to fly for BA. I don't think that's the case for me. I have learned in previous lives that working for "prestigious" companies is not always what it's cracked up to be. In fact in my last job prior to aviation, I worked for what was seen as the pinacle of the industry and I earned more than ever before. And I hated it :yuk:

If you (at EZY) are on a row of late duties is it possible that you can be home at around midnight (give or take) five nights in a row?

Indeed carbheatout, that can be the case. And when that happens with minimum rest, you don't get to see the family.

I have not irrational desire to be a captain ASAP. After 12 years in corporate life, I am happy to go fly and have a nice day out with the chap or chapette sitting next to me. I'm sure getting the left seat is very enjoyable and rewarding, but if it comes with constant exhaustion I'm happy to spend a fair few years in the right hand seat. I meet more and more captains at EZY who seem to be genuinely fatigued and fed up. Part of the problem is the constant flux of new cadets on 6 month contracts. A lot of captains say it's making them far more tired than they used to be.

I also worry about boredom. I like changes, I always have. EZY simply does not offer that. See the world, fly different types, it sounds pretty interesting to me. And as mentioned before, my relatives scattered across the globe make BA staff travel very attractive.

I really think I am trying to get into BA for the right reasons. BUT... I am concerned about the financial aspect. It's hard enough to build yourself a big enough pension these days. And 25 years of EZY captain money would help a lot.

Well maybe the folks at The River will make the decision for me :suspect:

P

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Oh and Dutchjock I was lucky enough to go straight to LH... That can't have been a hard decision then :p

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Financially then its a no brainer - take the EZY command in MAD, ROM, MXP and rake in €9,000 a month from now to retirement.

Career wise - seems like you want to join BA and do other things.

I'd give it a go. Life's too short to spend time wondering What If and money isn't everything. Go an experience medium/long haul - you might love it.


WWW

[Dutchjock]

P,

It wasn't and I love it.

Not good for my liver though..

Without joking, it was the right choice for me, I couldnt do the repetitiveness of 5/4/5/3 and Ezy's operation for the rest of my career. But as you say, there are things more important than a job, so I wish you well with your choice.

If you've got any questions feel free to pm me.

Anyway, off to the pool on the other side of the globe :E

[PPRuNeUser0204]

At least at BA you would have a number of years of working weekends and then you might have more control over your life. Something you will never have at EZY.

Your command at BA (after x years) would at least be in London. Not something you can guarantee with EZY.

You're not LHS yet so why not apply. Life is too short for regrets and who says EZY is going to be here for the next 20 years anyway?

BA offers better conditions once the initial pain of being junior has passed.

A good balanced post by Dutchjock, albeit I guess they are single and young!

[Firestorm]

You can only make the best decision with the information that you have on the day. There is no crystal ball to tell how the relative fortunes of BA and Easy Jet will ebb and flow, and in these times it would be a braver man than I who would try and make too much of a prediction. All you can do is make your choice, and enjoy it!

[Wirbelsturm]

One of the best things about BA is the ability to mix fleets.

Done 4/5 years SH? Try LH for 4 years knowing that you can constantly bid back to SH in the other seat if you don't like it. That ability is worth its weight in gold when you like variety as it allows you the chance to move fleets without moving company.

787 as mixed fleet SH and LH? Who knows hopefully yes and see a return to the nice mixed fleet of the 757/787.

Good luck.

[fiftypercentn1]

part time is the future. in your weeks off you go to all the LH destinations you want!

[Craggenmore]

I meet more and more captains at EZY who seem to be genuinely fatigued and fed up. Part of the problem is the constant flux of new cadets on 6 month contracts. A lot of captains say it's making them far more tired than they used to be.

Hi P,

Maybe off-topic but not really if you want to stay at EZY, P, but I hear this the whole time too and it’s probably going to get worse.

200 SFO's (company wide) leaving with 300 new CTC cadets/flexi crew arriving over the next 6 months which is why the training department want over 20 new trainers; over double what was initially required.

(Overheard at Burgess Hill last week).....EZY Head of Training is now phoning around the Majors to get an idea of how many EZY SFO's they intend to interview. BA has asked 50/80 forward for interview and this is only round 1. How many more will apply when they properly open up next year? Not sure on Virgin but I do know of one SFO who already has the call for interview. I guess it's to get an idea of the extent of experience dilution.

How will EZY address this 'hole' in 3 years time when no FO has the required experience for command?

It's all a bit late in the day. If BALPA were more pro-active with conditions instead of getting salt and pepper re-introduced.........I must have received over 15 private emails in the past year about crew food but none about pay/conditions. How many silver tin food tops did you save for proof/analysis...!!!

9000 Euros is a good old sum if you only think in Euros but when the pound adjusts, which it will, the sum falls back into line with the UK (which is what it was based upon initially.)

After reading the latest Business Review from management, this will become more relevant. If you read between the lines, it looks like only LGW and MAN will survive in the UK as bases over the next few years. The writing is on the wall for the smaller bases like Bristol. The respective workforces will be made to relocate abroad (East Mids/Newcastle) so lets hope the Euro stays strong for their sake.

Good luck with the decision :)

[Damianik]

I was 27, 3 years FO Ryanair, 2 years to go for Command (that is what happened to my course mates so i guess it would have happened to me) and i left to Netjets, to enjoy variety of flying, 6 on 5 off and still be based in my own country and city (as with FR) .
Same money, same career prospect as NJE was expanding.
It ended up that my mates are becoming captains one after the other in FR (like it or not) and i am on my year off from netjets forced part time and just got a job offer by Turkish Airlines back on the B737NG based in Turkey for 1+3+forever contract, nice money, 1000 hours a year. BA interview coming in february for me, jenuinely wants to go to BA as i respect the airline and i would like to stabilize also my life a little. Age 30 by the time of the interview. What would u guys suggest?
Stay with Netjets and enjoy the roster (money is below standard) . Make a life a turkish till the turks wants their place back and they kick me out as still a FO?
Go to Emirates (february interview as well but i postponed it 2 times due to lack of will) or go to BA?
All of this depends on the interviews, but THY and Netjets are realities.

Answers to me can help the guy make a decision, who knows, otherwise you call all say i hijected the tread!
D

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Craggs, the uncertain future of the UK bases is an important part of my decision process. I have moved enough in my life and I really want to settle. And the way EZY are conducting their regular base reviews is not exactly lending to that! I think unfortunately EZY will never take those relatively small steps required to make the company a nice place to work for life. It could have been Southwest but it's not. I won't be distraught if I don't get the job at BA because the the left hand seat money at EZY will be nice. But the more I think about it the more I believe I'll retire happier after 25 years at BA than after 25 years at EZY even if it means a lower retirement income.

P

[Craggenmore]

"Should you find yourself in a chronically leaking boat, energy devoted to changing vessels is likely to be more productive than energy devoted to patching leaks."

Warren Buffet, 1997

p.s. our Base Captain is also leaving.

[ssschmokin1]

..and it came out that i would be better off going to BA and NEVER getting a command rather than staying at FR with the current rate of decline of T&Cs (losing approx 2-3% per year to inflation). This would be with minimum 20 years left to fly from the changeover. Any longer, the BA option just gets better...

When you look at the differences, don't forget to include the BA perks (ID tickets, decent pension, licence costs paid, food, uniform etc etc etc) as it all adds up, particularly if you like long haul holidays or have family in far flung locations!!

[FANS]

Perma -well done on having such a balanced decision making process. If all pilots were like you, we'd not be in this horrific mess.

A few observations:

- given the hastle of being a capt these days at EZY with constant p2f/cadets/volunteers (call them what you want), BA is worth the inital cut

- your calculations are based on pay now. Look at what's happened in the last few years alone. EZY are in a race to the bottom with RYR and this will only worsen your working environment there.

- i take it you're LGW based anyway, otherwise the LHR/LGW commute will be painful

- You are in the excellent position of not having a mortgage at 40, and so you don't need every penny unlike many others, and so can think more in terms of lifestyle

- BA pilots spend very little time on pprune which tells you all you need to know!


NSF - it's only you that comes across as very bitter for not having been at BA. We all know there's nothing you'd prefer than to be LHS BA744, instead of trying to justify the underhand tactics of EZY management, when they have their workforce backed into a corner.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

well done on having such a balanced decision making process
It's a little too well balanced, that's the problem :confused:

EZY are in a race to the bottom with RYR
A very heavy weight in my decision making process. The recent promotion of Warwick Brady as head of Ops leaves no doubt in my mind about the ultimate goal of the management board...

- BA pilots spend very little time on pprune which tells you all you need to know!.
You're not wrong there! Some of the few who do have been very helpful however :-). Pretty hard to get an accurate picture of the net monthly income though. Seems to vary a lot from one month to another depending on trips/overtime/base etc.

[silverknapper]

If it's lifestyle you're after why not go European EZY base part time? Seems to be best of both worlds. Same salary as UK skipper with loads of time off in the sunshine?

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Dutchjock - I do not think it is condescending to suggest that we are all driven by desires that are not always sensible or rational. At moments such as this it is good to question that. My observations are that nowhere is that more so than in the airline industry where often choices people make defy logic. That aside, I do recognise that this is a difficult decision, but for someone aged 40, going to BA is a significantly less attractive proposition than for someone younger. In both a balanced and very interesting discussion such as this, the age factor is massive in my judgement in tipping the balance. I am interested to see that people regard 5/3/5/4 as 'boring' - I just see it as a gift - is it not a great thing to be able to book a social engagement a year in advance knowing when you will be off?

FANS - I am disappointed to find you lowering the tone with rather puerile comments. If you knew me you would know that I really am very happy in short haul. You are quite right that I would love to be LHS in a B747 - but only to fly 10 circuits on base training! It's horses for courses my friend - not everyone wants to work for BA or to fly long-haul. I personally am extremely happy where I am. You can take that at face value or call me a liar - the choice is yours.

carbheatout - your question is entirely reasonable. Clearly any airline pilot, on whatever roster pattern, is going to face challenges integrating his work pattern into the 'normal' patterns that the rest of his household almost certainly follow. My own experience is that although I have times of stress due to not seeing everyone, I get significantly more time with my family than other friends who leave the house at 0630 and return exhausted off the London train at 8.00pm. It requires a deal of juggling and occasional disturbed sleep patterns but we certainly make it work well. Family life is a high priority for me, and my own experience of the 5/3/5/4 pattern is very postive in that regard.

Craggenmore has pointed out the potential difficulties of regional UK bases at easyJet - I am not as certain as he is about their demise, but he is right to suggest a doubt exists about their future. As a little aside, during a 2-hour delay for my flight this afternoon, I happened to bump into one of our ex-BA skippers in the crewroom at Gatwick. He was there about 35 years and has held a number of key positions including B777 Fleet Manager. Due to just missing the 55 extension at BA he has worked for us for 7 years and is a delightful and informed guy to speak to. I asked him about his perspective on life at easyJet compared with life at BA. He was balanced and sensible, and his comments would be very relevant to this debate. Permafrost ATPL, please feel free to PM me and I would be glad to point you in his direction to give a truly informed view on your dilemma. He highlighted the breadth of job opportunities outside of pure flying that exist at BA - a big plus point. Offsetting that he mentioned the significant difficulties that have arisen between cabin crew and those pilots who trained as 'strike breaker' cabin crew in the recent dispute. There are definitely pros and cons -

[Permafrost_ATPL]

PM sent :ok:

[macdo]

Yes, there’s an obvious reason why BA pilots rarely post on PPrune. Rightly or wrongly they perceive that they are on the top of the heap and looking at the goings on at other carriers posted on PPrune, its hard to disagree.
PERMAFROST this is a no brainer, go to BA LONG HAUL only. If in a few years the shine wears off, start looking at PPrune again. But I bet you don’t.
Incidentally, I had the opportunity to go to BA at 40, but hung on in for the command where I was. At 50, with 15 years of night DLM’s to look forward to, it’s a decision I often regret. (But I do have a nice shiny expensive car!!);)

[SMOOTHFLIER]

Looking for some insight
Im a young pilot SFO at a uk charter airline on a permanent contract.
I have BA interview next year.

Should I leave my charter airline for BA. I would imagine I have 35 years left to work health permitting.

The mixed fleet flying would happen much quicker at charter which is what I want when im young and command I would expect to be 10 years.

Disadvantages I can see in BA are the 5 year freeze on shorthaul. an initial paycut for a few years, And the expense of having to live close to lgw/lhr.Joining the bottom of a seniority queue again.

What would you do?

[Dutchjock]

Smoothflier,

If you like your job, it does the type of flying you want and you are somewhere up the seniority ladder, then why give it all up?

[mjenkins]

I agree that at the age of 40 it is a tough decision - 5 years younger then its still a no brainer.

I do think the net monthly incomes for BA are a little on the low side, especially if you take into account the opportunity for overtime - an extra day can be worth a few hundred quid net at least.

Also nobody here has mentioned the benefits of the BA leave system when combined with bidline. I have one weeks leave at the end of November - through bidding I have blocked my Nov work at the beginning of the month, so I finish on the 15th Nov and return to work on the 7th Dec. I shall be using my free firm ticket to travel to the states in a very nice seat to visit the future in laws for thanksgiving in California. I have a very good mate who got his command this year at Easy who is waiting for his sim check at BA for this exact difference in lifestyle.

For a SH pilot at LHR - I can honestly say that when you compare my roster to the easy equivalent, we definately have a better lifestyle. I don't like early's that much - so I bid for lates, I don't like to work every weekend - so I bid around that aswell, with reasonable success. Before you say "yes but he must be senior" - well I'm not actually in the grand scheme of things. I have been in just over 4 years, but joined towards the front of the last recruitment bulge so shot up the list quicker than average.

I joined BA at 24 - so I am lucky to have a long career ahead - health permitting. I don't think that BA is the be all and end all - but if you talk to any BA pilot, try and find out how many are thinking about leaving to go off to the ME for an early LH command, or to a LC carrier to get an early command - trust me it won't be many if any at all. That should say it all.

Just ask yourself if you genuinely think that you can maintain the 5/4/5/3 roster for 30 years. You may well be able to. I couldn't. Our job can be very routine, and people get stale - myself included, so I am looking forward to the opportunity of moving to a brand new fleet, flying to different places, staying in fantastic hotels, and being paid well to do it. When I have a family in the future - I can then bid back to SH to enjoy many more nights at home. Flexibility is everything as I don't know what I will want and what the missus will want me to do in the future - all I know is that BA provides me with that flexibility as well as providing me with a great quality of life.

Best of luck whatever your decision.

[Too Low Terrain]

Interesting to see that the discussion is always about "could you do this for 25 years...."

Nobody here seems to take into account, that BA will, with all respect, not
exist in 25 years from now on any more, if they do not change things massively.
And these "adjustments" will also be carried by the employees finally!

Why ?
[---reasons deleted due wrong figures--] :E

I know, predictions in airline business are hard to make, but BA in its
current state is a dying giant....:sad:

PS: I think many of the "Majors" are not able any more to generate enough
"fat" in the upturn to cover the losses in the next downturn.
BA is probably one of them.

[toro]

too low.....

I agree with your opening statement about BA possibly/probably not being around in 25 years but if you look back 25 years what other airlines were around in the UK.?? Monarch...... uuuummm..??

I think you are well behind the drag curve (maybe thats why you get a "too low terrain'...?) regarding your other comments.

Revenue has bounced back, yields are up 16%.

Back into profitability.

All Unions have agreed to massive changes APART from an increasingly irrelevant group of Cabin crew known as BASSA I have heard...!!!

Pension deficit is being resolved as all groups have agreed to again massive increases in their contributions, for longer with smaller payout. The stock market has bounced back, but interestingly no one mentions that when talking about pension funds only when it is crashing.?

Have you seen the BA share price this year...?

Hardly a "Dying Giant"....? Although a year or two ago I was very worried as you would have been spot on.

So enough of the negativity, be happy for the turnaround. Unless of course you have an agenda to talk it down.?


p.s. try to keep away from the granite. :=

[Gillespie]

Hi,

I find myself in a similar situation to the original poster. For me, the decision to move would be based mostly on lifestyle improvements in the long term. I'm currently working circa 850 - 900 hours Flight Time, and approx. 1300 - 1500 Hours duty time.

I think it is the duty hours that are key, not the flight time as I'll be commuting.

Can any current BA 320 guys give any insight into how many duty hours to expect for a year?

Many thanks and good luck to those applying.

G.