One for the SAR boys and girls.

[Pink Panther]

What aircraft will provide top cover for you guys on the long range stuff now that the mighty hunters life is at an end? Does this also mean than ARCC duties will finish at Kinloss in the near future when it closes as an RAF base?

[Tallsar]

Well done - you have noticed the elephants in the room!:{ I wonder what topcover if any was sent to the 2 recent incidents off the SW?

[pasptoo]

Cessna from EGTE, and a Flacon from France, I think.

Pas.

[Hummingfrog]

What sort of air droppable dinghies to these a/c carry? It was always comforting to have the SAR equipped Nimrod overhead when we were 200mls out into the Atlantic on a stormy dark night.

HF

[pasptoo]

How many dinghies did you want? 4xpsp + ms10 not enough? :E

[Tallsar]

Lets be more inquistive then......what is the offical SAR platform replacement for the Nimrod....is there a C130 on standby these days or what?

As for the RCC..anyone got any input re its future...my guess is it stays at Kinloss.....I assume the Army is going to move in at some stage to keep them company?

[leopold bloom]

Outsourced to New Delhi probably.:ugh:

[Hummingfrog]

Pas

The airdroppable dinghy was not just a back up for us. It was used for survivors in the water who we couldn't pick up. The recent factory ship that caught fire in the SW approaches had 100+ on board - fortunately the sea was calm enough for them to launch their own rafts.

This is one example of reduction in capability which SAR-H might also be guilty of in the future.

HF

[detgnome]

Press 1 for rescue....2 for med transfer... etc. Your call is important to us....

and all to the theme of greensleeves!

[[email protected]]

The mighty hunter has not actually been available for SAR for a good few months now - I did the first long-ranger 250nm W of Ireland with the Cessna as top cover earlier this year. It doesn't have the loiter capability of the Nimrod and its radar is nowhere near as good but it is still nice to have someone there to call for help if it all goes pete tong.

It was the Cessna crew's first SAR job but the weather was very nice and the tanker was very easy to find and winch off - no great dramas and pretty much any airborne asset could have acted as a comms relay.

The real loss of the Nimrod will be shown in a multi-asset rescue where top cover and co-ordination are required - having several comms operators on board takes a lot of the heartache out of managing such a situation and lets the rescuers get on with their jobs.

As for the Scillies job last week - it was well within the range of the Chivenor aircraft which sat at St Mary's with the 771 cab but neither were used.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Outsourced to New Delhi probably

Might improve the service...:E

[EWD-STAB]

I understand the future of the ARCC may involve a move and possible co location with either an MRCC or D&D.

[Gordy]

Crab
having several comms operators on board

When did that change? Back in my days on the Nimorod, (early 80's), we only had one. Although I guess we could have used one of the other stations to break up the workload.

Like you say, the real loss will be felt on the multi-mission large scale search and rescue. I was on the Air India incident back in 85 and stayed on-station for about 8 hours---I think we provided 48 hours of coverage on that one.

[Hummingfrog]

Gordy

May have spoken to you on Air India - I was on the 1st crew out there - we lived at Cork airport for about 36 hrs and flew several missions along with 2 other cabs from Brawdy, 2 other RAF Seakings, the RN, at least one Chinook and a CH53. Without a Nimrod co-ordinating the search patterns both by helio and boat it would have been chaos.

The Nimrod on scene commander for Piper Alpha was even more impressive as he successfully organised a very complex SAR task comprising Mil SAR helicopters along with civil oil rig helicopters, supply boats, standby boats, and the Emergency Response vessel the IOLAIR. He did so well that I had at least 3 breakfasts that night/morning - the best being off the SF 135 while refuelling:ok:

Not sure how the present Cessna would cope giving an ATC/radar service to approx 12 Helicopters some needing search areas and refuel decks while others slot times to land on the THAROS to take off injured workers.

While shutdown on the IOLAIR little did I know that in a later life I would spend several years living on her:)

HF

[Gordy]

HF

May have spoken to you on Air India

I am almost certain we did....I was on the second Nimrod out there from what I remember, (I do not have my old logbook with me as I am "on the road" right now). I was one of the three search-water operators on that flight, co-ordinating the helicopters.

Little did I know then that I would soon switch careers and be flying helicopters full time.

[pasptoo]

100+ on board - fortunately the sea was calm enough for them to launch their own rafts.

If the weather is so bad as to not launch your own life raft, you are not going to jump in for those provided by an airborne asset - are you?

well within the range of the Chivenor aircraft which sat at St Mary's with the 771 cab but neither were used

Why were they not used? Didn't 771 go back the following day for evac?

As for Nimrod, unfortunately, like the CG Tugs, as they have not been used for the role in which they were procured then they are for the cut. Only when you really need it for that once in a decade situation then you will realise that you shouldn't have got rid of it.

[Hummingfrog]

Pasptoo

Your profile doesn't enlighten us as to your long range SAR experience - which by the tone of your posts is either limited or non existant - there are many reasons why a ships crew may not be able to use their own safety equipment which if you have SAR experience you will know of.

While the MR4 had its problems the lack of a suitable a/c for maritime patrol/SAR coverage, for an island nation, is deplorable.

AS Crab has said many times this downgrading of our capabilities does not bode well for SAR as a whole.:ugh:

HF

[cyclic]

Pasptoo

like the CG Tugs, as they have not been used for the role in which they were procured then they are for the cut

So that wasn't the CG tug pulling a RN sub off the shingle the other day then? Get some time in laddie!

[pasptoo]

So that wasn't the CG tug pulling a RN sub off the shingle the other day then?

That was my point! sarcasm missed. :{

P.

[Lioncopter]

Out of intrest hummingfrog, what are we saying is long range sar?

:)

[Tallsar]

One of the stupidities ofthe SAR-H requirement was that a more integrated approach to UK SAR in any bid solution was prohibited. The issue of top cover/comms and long range target aquisition and dinghy dropping and how it might be provided more cost effectively by the chosen SAR-H contractor was an obvious "value for money" issue even if Nimrod 4 had entered service. such an expensive platform available in such small numbers was always going to have other priorites for its ISTAR capabilites - and how we shall miss those. No - there could have been several cost effective ways of substituting such fixed wing capability into the SAR-H programme, along with a truely integrated M/ARCC.....at much cost saving . Shame is we now have the savings but without the integration and fully effective UK (air) SAR service.

[Hummingfrog]

Lioncopter

what are we saying is long range sar

I don't know if there is now a definition of Long Range SAR but in my day it was considered to be anything over 150mls from the coast. This was not a robust definition as 150mls into the N Sea with all the rigs with refuelling facilities is totally different to 150+ miles out from Shannon into the Atlantic.

It was a lonely feeling as the coastal lighting disappeared behind you and only darkness and an inhospitable sea lay ahead. The welcome sound of the Nimrod AEOp giving you top cover and directions to the casualty was comforting especially when fuel was short. Though due to the speed difference they had probably had time to have a big breakfast before scrambling, from Kinloss or St Mawgan to meet us as we coasted out from Shannon;)

HF

[Lioncopter]

Thanks hummingfrog, just wondering what diffrent people think a long range job is. I have friends flying in the states that think 70 miles is long range, while I think about 200 miles is long range, to me where fuel planning starts to become important!

[Tallsar]

In the long gone days of UK Whirlwind SAR - 50 miles offshore was considered (officially) as long range...and normally not approved at night.
From my own experience anything more than an hour away from a suitable HLS is long range enough......it is very lonely over the water with nothing in sight.....and that's before the weather adds to the flavour of the occasion.

[Gordy]

The welcome sound of the Nimrod AEOp giving you top cover and directions to the casualty was comforting especially when fuel was short. Though due to the speed difference they had probably had time to have a big breakfast before scrambling, from Kinloss or St Mawgan to meet us as we coasted out from Shannon


As you know---we would always be "scrambled" right as you filled your plate with food....OR....10 minutes before shift change. The "in-flight" meals on SAR were always made from the "box"...lots of "honkers" stew.....

For what it is worth...I now experience the same comfort when I am the only helicopter working a fire miles from anywhere and have the "air attack" platform above me watching my back.

Glad to have been comfort to you....

Gordy....former AEOp....now helicopter fire pilot.....

[sargs]

Hummingfrog:
they had probably had time to have a big breakfast before scrambling
We didn't need the breakfast before scrambling - we had a big box of rations (for 26 POB, as I recall, even though a crew was usually 13) down the back of the aircraft which we couldn't wait to get into!

Lioncopter:
just wondering what different people think a long range job is
Flying SAR in the Falklands, for me, felt like every job was long range, particularly over sea at night. The only other SAR crew within hundreds of miles were usually in the bar.....

Gordy:

Ex-AEOp? On the Air India crash? Guess that makes you ex 201 Sqn, perhaps Crew 7? My memory tells me I was on the second Nimrod out there, with 201/6, so perhaps you were on the first?

[Gordy]

Sargs

Ex-AEOp? On the Air India crash? Guess that makes you ex 201 Sqn, perhaps Crew 7? My memory tells me I was on the second Nimrod out there, with 201/6, so perhaps you were on the first?

201/1 followed by NFTC. Started on Mike Verrill's crew then Jerry Kessle's (sp). But as you know, we occasionally swapped crews for a day specially covering SAR... Will check my log book if and when I ever make it back to my base---(been gone since Feb 3, rumor has it I may be back before the end of the month).

[nimby]

Had a brief from the crew of Cormorant 902 (Canadian Forces 442 Squadron) on their Homathko Glacier rescue, which won the Prince Philip award. Their top cover is Buffalo/Herc and they needed it to fire flares to create enough light for their NVG to work (hovering at max IGE altitude, over snow against the rocks). Who'd be a SAR Tech, winching down knowing what the handling pilot's handling!

Even more impressive is what they mean by long range - colleagues travelled 7,000km a few months ago to pick up a seal hunter whose bit of ice shelf had become an ice berg. That's roughly Montreal to ABZ!

-40C, Fuel from caches - no wonder they tajke a flight engineer to keep it all going ...

N.

[sargs]

Gordy - see your PMs.......

[Lioncopter]

I maby should have quantified that statement better, I have friends flying EMS that think 70 miles is long range.

I was just wondering what people feel long range is. It was not a slight on anyone.

;-)