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cldrvr
29th Oct 2010, 15:36
BBC News - Cargo planes grounded in US security scare (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11654390)

Several cargo planes have been grounded at separate US airports as authorities investigate suspicious packages, the Transportation Security Administration has said.

BBC news now saying 2 aircraft in UK also being looked at. One at EMA

Correction, EMA now just being the distribution centre not aircraft.

Edit: now all related to UPS. Statement from UPS confirming suspicious packages are being investigated.

Philadelphia, Newark and Chicago now have A/C in "containment areas" (Reuters)

Reuters: First suspicious package found this morning at 0330 (GMT) in EMA. [sic] only took them half a day to take action.....

Tony Mabelis
29th Oct 2010, 16:01
Willy Walsh calls for reduction of aviation security this morning, America responds immediately, that's an obvious conspiracy theory.

Hedge36
29th Oct 2010, 16:02
Bomb Found on UPS Plane in London, Other Jets Searched in Newark, Philadelphia | NYCAviation.com | Airplane Photos, Airline News, Planespotting Guides (http://nycaviation.com/2010/10/bomb-found-on-ups-plane-in-london-other-jets-searched-in-newark-philadelphia/)

cldrvr
29th Oct 2010, 16:12
(AP) linked to Yemen and a dodgy printer cartridge. (Tenuous at best)

El Grifo
29th Oct 2010, 16:26
We are given to understand that a suspicious package was examined during a fuel stop at EMA and found to be harmless. The aircraft continued on it's way.

Under-reaction by the UK or over-reaction by the US.

Can't both be right :ugh:

No prizes !!!

ribt4t
29th Oct 2010, 16:34
There seems to be some confusion in the US Media about whether EMA is in Birmingham or London ... :rolleyes:

Crossbleed
29th Oct 2010, 16:50
...and who is this "talking head" knitwit gushing on CNN right now?....the difference between "commercial" and "freight" appears to be lost on him.
CNN suck.:yuk:

Teddy Robinson
29th Oct 2010, 16:53
as to whether anything exists outside of the USA ...

YouTube - U.S. Shocked Andorra Not In Africa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q_iqrvnC_4)

Rollingthunder
29th Oct 2010, 17:00
Bloody BBC, can casually describe B757 as a B737...they should not let dolts report on aviation matters. On again, off again, on again alert, although if I got an envelope from Yemen, I would worry.

barry lloyd
29th Oct 2010, 17:03
On 3rd September, a UPS 747 crashes in flames after taking off from DXB. Very little is reported on any of the media networks. The cause is, as yet, unknown. On 29th October, a device is allegedly found at a freight terminal at East Midlands Airport (EMA), and the news media on both sides of the Atlantic go into meltdown.:confused:
For the benefit of those in the US, EMA is about 120 miles north of London.

Matari
29th Oct 2010, 17:26
EMA, London...what's the difference? Ryanair thinks Girona is actually Barcelona, and Hahn is Frankfurt.

Do carry on with the US bashing though, will be interesting how far deep in the gutter this gets before it heads to JB.

barry lloyd
29th Oct 2010, 17:36
Do carry on with the US bashing though

No US-bashing Matari, at least not by me. Simply a matter of geography. There is no over-riding reason why anyone in the US should know the distance between London and EMA. I have no idea how far Chicago is from Philadelphia because it's not something I normally need to know.

To continue...

eagle21
29th Oct 2010, 17:51
On 3rd September, a UPS 747 crashes in flames after taking off from DXB. Very little is reported on any of the media networks. The cause is, as yet, unknown. On 29th October, a device is allegedly found at a freight terminal at East Midlands Airport (EMA), and the news media on both sides of the Atlantic go into meltdown.
For the benefit of those in the US, EMA is about 120 miles north of London.

It is certainly very interesting, I am sure someone is now llooking very closely at what happened to that UPS 747 in Dubai...

It does not look very good

ANENG
29th Oct 2010, 17:58
well said barry lloyd.:D:D:D:D:D

RegDep
29th Oct 2010, 18:01
http://www.avherald.com/h?article=432cf13e&opt=0

Suspicious packages on UPS aircraft, no explosives

ATIS
29th Oct 2010, 18:08
Have to say that the DXB recent crash was the first thing that came to mind following this threat. Still no news about the cause.

Flying Serpent
29th Oct 2010, 18:26
The "potentially suspicious" package is being reported as a modified printer toner cartridge with wires attached...

Suspicious packages prompt US and UK terror alerts - Americas, World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/suspicious-packages-prompt-us-and-uk-terror-alerts-2120267.html)

:=

El Grifo
29th Oct 2010, 19:13
Whomsoever is behind this little pantomime is doing a great job. (limit not your choices)

The worldwide media is all over it like a rash and the spin-off circumstances are brewing just nicely.

The spread of terrorism is spread by whom exactly ???

The SSK
29th Oct 2010, 19:24
I'm off to re-read The Fourth Protocol. Is it all coming true?

PaperTiger
29th Oct 2010, 19:51
Do carry on with the US bashing though, will be interesting how far deep in the gutter this gets before it heads to JB.I suppose I shouldn't mention what's happening next Tuesday then ?

:hmm:

racedo
29th Oct 2010, 20:07
I suppose I shouldn't mention what's happening next Tuesday then ?


October Surprise !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Funny that was first thought and second was statement by Walsh of BA yesterday.

One Outsider
29th Oct 2010, 20:20
It was with shaking hands and a sweaty brow that I examined my printer after receiving the distressing news today. Imagine my terror when I discovered not one but FIVE printer cartridges all with wires AND a circuit board attached to them.

I have now locked myself in the basement awaiting the arrival of the bomb squad.

I am scared I tell ya, scared!

Buckster
29th Oct 2010, 20:27
US Presidents brief was interesting ! - wasn't expecting that - seems initial info was wrong.

Stu666
29th Oct 2010, 20:40
The close-up of the circuit board photo doing the rounds looks suspiciously like a mobile phone circuit to my eyes. You can even see what looks like the 'phone's camera on the top right.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/US/10/29/security.concern/t1larg.cargo.update2.jpg

Machaca
29th Oct 2010, 21:11
AP reports:

Obama: Terror explosives found, bound for US

Eileen Sullivan And Matt Apuzzo, Associated Press WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama declared Friday that authorities had uncovered a "credible terrorist threat" against the United States following the overseas discovery of U.S.-bound packages containing explosives aboard cargo jets. Obama said both had been addressed to Jewish organizations in the Chicago area.

The disclosures triggered a worldwide alert amid fears that al-Qaida was attempting to carry out fresh terror attacks.

The events "underscore the necessity of remaining vigilant against terrorism," the president said. The packages both originated in Yemen, but Obama did not explicitly assign blame to al-Qaida, which is active in the Arab nation and long has made clear its goal of attacking the United States.

The events unfolded four days before national elections in which discussion of terrorism has played almost no role.

Obama stepped to the podium in the hours after officials disclosed that authorities in Dubai intercepted an explosive device bound for a Chicago-area Jewish institution. The second package was aboard a plane searched in England, and officials said it contained a printer toner cartridge with wires and powder.

That second package was aboard a plane in East Midlands, north of London.
Obama did not identify any institution that had been targeted.

Several other cargo planes at airports along the Eastern Seaboard of the United States also were searched, and officials said no explosives were found. An Emirates Airlines passenger jet carrying cargo from Yemen was escorted from the Canadian border to New York City by two military fighter jets, U.S. officials said. They said it was a precautionary action.

An FBI spokesman in Chicago, Ross Rice, said both suspicious packages had been sent from the same address in Yemen.

The president refrained from assigning blame to Yemen's al-Qaida branch, but officials who spoke on condition of anonymity said they were increasingly certain that was the source. The same group was responsible for the attempted bombing of a U.S.-bound airliner last Christmas.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity, citing the ongoing investigation.
White House counterterrorism adviser John Brennan later told reporters that the explosives "were in a form that was designed to try to carry out some type of attack," but he provided no further details.

"The forensic analysis is under way," he said, adding, "Clearly from the initial observation, the initial analysis that was done, the materials that were found in the device that was uncovered was intended to do harm."

stepwilk
29th Oct 2010, 21:35
"There appears to be some confusion ...
as to whether anything exists outside of the USA ...

YouTube - U.S. Shocked Andorra Not In Africa"

Teddy Robinson, are you utterly unaware that the on-line news site The Onion and its YouTube adjunct Onion News Network are totally satirical humor media??? IT'S A JOKE. That you apparently didn't get.

Lon More
29th Oct 2010, 22:04
Hedge 36 wrote Bomb Found on UPS Plane in London, Other Jets Searched in Newark, Philadelphia | NYCAviation.com | Airplane Photos, Airline News, Planespotting Guides
which becomes a whole different story if you note that the quote is now "Possible bomb ...."

jcjeant
29th Oct 2010, 22:13
Hi,

Will end up as non event .. but good for make grow fear in the public and justify a up (one more time) of the security checks at airports...... :sad:

gtf
29th Oct 2010, 22:36
Yay! More excuse to practice my grab-ankles-and-say-please move...

I suppose I shouldn't mention what's happening next Tuesday then ?

'Tis usually the tea-sipping elephant that benefits from scaring the sensitive voters, not the donkey, and from the look of polls, the elephant needs no help this year.

The Ancient Geek
29th Oct 2010, 23:22
There seems to be some confusion in the US Media about whether EMA is in Birmingham or London


Both wrong - try again. :=

ribt4t
30th Oct 2010, 00:57
Both wrong - try again.

Yes, that was my point.

CGN32R
30th Oct 2010, 01:42
I can confirm (at the moment) that one of the mentioned a/c in EMA was one of our Star Air B767 coming from CGN to EMA scheduled to continue to EDI. I guess we often have load for the UPS Philadelphia Flight standing next to us. a/c was evacuated, searched and grounded the whole day.

I heard even more but cannot confirm these information yet.

Teddy Robinson
30th Oct 2010, 03:40
thank you for pointing that out :rolleyes:

LadyGrey
30th Oct 2010, 05:03
An FBI spokesman in Chicago, Ross Rice, said both suspicious packages had been sent from the same address in YemenYes, those :mad: terrorists are so :mad: stupid, that they send those :mad: parcels from :mad: Yemen to the land of the free....:ugh:

White House counterterrorism adviser John Brennan later told reporters that the explosives "were in a form that was designed to try to carry out some type of attack," but he provided no further details.
Good job, Mr. Brennan, well done:ok:

When are the national elections:oh:

Watch "Wag the Dog" with Robert de Niro......

.

Boomerang_Butt
30th Oct 2010, 05:18
I don't mean this to sound like yet another 'conspiracy theory'... but.....

given the crash in Dubai, and the subsequent discussion re: screening of cargo/parcels/freight, and the fact that (from what I read) these threats seem to have been targeted at UPS... discussions here about lack of safety precautions and provisions for freighters, value of airline lives vs cargo.. etc etc etc

could this be 'someone's' (an interested party, whether an indiviual or other) way of drawing attention to the gaps in 'security' in this section of aviation??

I.e. not a 'real' threat as in intended to cause any crashes, BUT- looks real enough to make people sit up and take notice?

Makes me wonder.... (ok you might think I'm crazy but this is the thought that crossed my mind when I first heard of this)

tailstrikecharles
30th Oct 2010, 05:50
"From the very beginning, there has been speculation that the attacks were carried out by a biodefense zealot who wanted to prove that bioterrorism was a serious problem," says Epstein

If you want to sell mousetraps breed mice


(Info on the plot was revealed by our Middle East Ally, Saudi Arabia - ensuring that plot only caused fear, not damage)

crewmeal
30th Oct 2010, 06:29
For the benefit of those in the US, EMA is about 120 miles north of London.

For the benefit of everyone who doesn't know where EMA is - remember Kegworth? A tiny village 129 miles north of London!

Mr Angry from Purley
30th Oct 2010, 07:19
EMA is at the Centre of the Universe, well that was my theory and it certainly is now. So the package goes Yemen - Dubai on a feeder, DXB-CGN on a UPS 747 (linking perhaps to the recent crash that didnt even make the front pages), CGN-EMA on another aircraft (Star 767 or UPS 767) to link with a EMA-PHL UPS flight that normally departs around 0400.
Personally i'm more concerned about the 747 crash, obviously for the loss of life, now a little bit more on what set off the onboard fire. :\

ExSp33db1rd
30th Oct 2010, 07:19
I suppose those suspicious 'packages' got through any so called ' security ' checks or protocols for cargo aircraft, just like the " Shoe Bomber " and the Pyrotechnic Underpant Nutter ?

Shall I say it again ? Repeat after me..........

The Bad Guys Will Do Whatever They Want Whenever They Want To
The Bad Guys Will Do Whatever They Want Whenever They Want To

etc ........

So why do we, and in particular operating crew, put up with all the :mad: about at airports ?

Total waste of time.

El Grifo
30th Oct 2010, 09:30
What confuses me is that why an item which was discovered, removed and examined in the UK and reported as being "sinister looking but harmless" turns out to be an explosive device, when Obama starts his little spout.

Are we looking at limited release of information by UK authorities for operational reasons, or something else entirely !!

It all plays directly into the hands of those who detect an odd smell here !

Navy_Adversary
30th Oct 2010, 09:36
As I understand it, EMA had its first securty alert about 03-30hrs then another later, I am not sure of the time but may have been around 1030hrs, two suspect packages?

Am I correct in saying that one of these packages actually arrived in the USA and the other was taken by the UK authorities for forensic examination?

Was there a slip up at EMA which enabled one package to arrive in Uncle Sams backyard, or was that package a false alarm?

racedo
30th Oct 2010, 09:38
What confuses me is that why an item which was discovered, removed and examined in the UK and reported as being "sinister looking but harmless" turns out to be an explosive device, when Obama starts his little spout.

Are we looking at limited release of information by UK authorities for operational reasons, or something else entirely !!

It all plays directly into the hands of those who detect an odd smell here !

How dare you suggest that Govts wouldn't have their interests solely at heart, ooops sorry our interests at heart in releasing fictionional ooops sorry factual information regarding this.

El Grifo
30th Oct 2010, 09:47
The way it apparently unfolded was actually the opposite NA.

The first one was discovered in EMA, under as yet unclear circumstances. It was examined and found to be "sinister looking but harmless"

Only after this did the great cross Atlantic pantomime spring into action whch culminated in Obama's great declaration.

As I said further up the thread "They both cant be right"

Did someone in the UK not get the script right, or :D

Lon More
30th Oct 2010, 10:07
Based on personal experience of receiving parcels* via UPS I wonder if just a thorough check of any manifest would throw up various HAZMAT, either wrongly labelled or the documentation not examined.

* solvent based paints, supposedly shipped by ground USPS were wrongly directed to UPS and came through without a hitch, not once, but several times. Other items, accepted by UPS just disappear from the system or are returned to the sender as undeliverable - unexistant (?!) address. :ugh:

The point I'm making is that even if it is a proscribed item the fault probably lies in UPS practices.


BTW surely JB is this thread's spiritual home? A lot more conspiracy theorists hanging out over there :O

topcat450
30th Oct 2010, 11:15
'sinister looking but harmless'??

Where's that come from? The news is currently reporting:

"Home Secretary Theresa May confirmed the package found in the UK contained explosive material.

"The package which originated in Yemen was removed for forensic examination by UK experts. That examination continues," she said.

"At this stage I can say that the device did contain explosive material. But it is not yet clear that it was a viable explosive device. The forensic work continues."

Captivep
30th Oct 2010, 12:02
Given that the packages were addressed to actual locations (mostly Jewish institutions, I believe), isn't it more likely that this was an attempt to send large letter bombs to the addressees?

If not, why not just pick random addresses?

coldair
30th Oct 2010, 13:52
The Daily Mail has some more info. (Daily Mail is not always accurate ! )

Packages found at British airport and in Dubai DID contain explosives: Obama says it was a 'credible' terror plot | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1324948/Packages-British-airport-Dubai-DID-contain-explosives-Obama-says-credible-terror-plot.html)

Al Qaeda ink cartridge bomb found on jet was linked to mobile phone SIM card



By David Williams (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=y&authornamef=David+Williams) and Rebecca Camber (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=y&authornamef=Rebecca+Camber)
Last updated at 12:09 PM on 30th October 2010


Bomb discoverd on jet in UK following MI6 tip-off

Similar Fed-Ex package seized in Dubai

'Bombs' were addressed to synagogues in Chicago
British Jews on 'high alert' after advice from police

Home Office grounds all flights from Yemen to UK
Passenger jet escorted into JFK airport by U.S. fighters
The US-bound package discovered on a plane in Dubai contained explosives and an electrical circuit linked to a mobile phone SIM card, police said today.
The device was prepared in a 'professional manner' and bore the hallmarks of terror groups such as al Qaeda, Dubai Police said in a statement.
The explosive material PETN, or pentaerythritol trinitrate, was used, the statement said.
This is the same chemical found after the failed attempt to blow up a plane over Detroit last Christmas.
A major international terror alert was launched after security staff found printer cartridges with wires attached at cargo hubs at East Midlands Airport in the UK and Dubai yesterday.

Enlarge http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/30/article-1324948-0BD571F0000005DC-26_634x398.jpg (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/30/article-1324948-0BD571F0000005DC-26_634x398_popup.jpg)Dubai police discovered parts of a computer printer with explosives loaded into its toner cartridge found in a package onboard a cargo plane coming from Yemen



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/30/article-1324948-0BD57ECD000005DC-901_634x476.jpg Terrorists had tried to conceal a bomb inside this printer, which was intercepted by Dubai police en route from the Yemen to Chicago



The packages were addressed to synagogues in Chicago, and were on Chicago-bound cargo planes that had set off from Yemen in the Middle East.

'The parcel was prepared in a professional manner where a closed electrical circuit was connected to a mobile phone SIM card hidden inside the printer,' Dubai Police said.

'This tactic carries the hallmarks of methods used previously by terrorist organisations such as al Qaeda.'

The bomb also contained lead azide, an explosive compound which can be used in detonators.

The statement continued: 'Swift action has enabled Dubai Police to foil a potential act of terror in the place the package was bound.'

The police said they were tipped off by a call from abroad. It warned of the possibility of an explosive device hidden in postal packages onboard the FedEx flight from Yemen.




The one found in Britain was intercepted by MI6 after a tip-off to one of its sources in the Arabian country, it was reported last night. Security services were placed on high alert.
The first package was found in the early hours yesterday. It had arrived on a United Parcel Service (UPS) flight which stopped at East Midlands Airport, on the Derbyshire and Leicestershire border.
It was taken off the plane and placed in a UPS storage depot just 300ft from the runway and half a mile from the passenger terminal, which is used by five million a year.





From there, it would have been transferred on to a cargo plane bound for Chicago.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/30/article-1324948-0BD58007000005DC-682_634x642.jpg The Fed-Ex bomb: The booby-trapped printer was packed in a box together with a number of everyday items such as books and magazines



Enlarge http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/30/article-1324948-0BD4C7A3000005DC-455_634x470.jpg (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/30/article-1324948-0BD4C7A3000005DC-455_634x470_popup.jpg)The packages spurred searches and investigations of jets arriving at New York's JFK Airport, Newark International Airport in New Jersey and the airport in Philadelphia

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/30/article-1324948-0BD45366000005DC-213_634x331.jpg Newark: A bomb squad officer carries a package away from a UPS cargo plane as the plane and its contents are searched inr Newark, New Jersey


But before this could happen, it aroused suspicion during routine checks. The package was tested in a remote sealed-off area of the airport after wires and white powder were seen to be coming from it.
Initial examinations suggested it might not have detonated, but last night it was sent together with other items from the plane to Scotland Yard’s anti-terrorist detectives for further forensic tests.




It was also reported that the device was linked to a mobile phone.






U.S. officials said they believe the packages contain pentaerythritol trinitrate, or PETN – the same powerful explosive used in last year’s failed Christmas Day Detroit airliner attack by Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, who was trained in Yemen.
This is the same explosive as used by shoe bomber Richard Reid in his failed attack in 2001.
One of the most potent explosives known to man, just 100g of PETN can destroy a car.

THREAT FROM YEMEN GROWING




http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/30/article-1324948-0BB79B8B000005DC-478_110x188.jpg
Fear have been growing rapidly over the terror threat posed to the West by Islamic fundamentalists based in Yemen.
Gordon Brown warned in January that the Middle Eastern country represented a growing ‘regional and global threat’ following the failed bomb attack on a U.S. plane over Detroit on Christmas Day last year.
Yemen-based group ‘Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula’ is now considered the most dangerous strand of the terror organisation outside Pakistan and Afghanistan.
At its head is the preacher Anwar Al Awlaki, above, who is thought to have influenced both the Detroit bomber Umar Farouk Abdul Mutallab and the 9/11 terrorists.
MI6 say he is urging violent attacks against the UK and the US describes him as ‘probably terrorist Number One.’
Mutallab, who is accused of trying to blow up a jet over Detroit on Christmas Day with explosives hidden in his underwear, is thought to have been tutored in Yemen.


However, it is extremely difficult to detect – making it an ideal weapon for terrorists.
But other sources said the packages may have been dummies adapted to look like real bombs in a ‘dry run’ as preparation for a real plot.
Hours after the discovery at East Midlands, two UPS planes at Philadelphia airport were moved to a secure area and checked, while searches were also carried out on an aircraft arriving from the UK in Newark, New Jersey.
Further checks were reported on planes that carried cargo originating in Yemen and that were arriving from Europe in Portland, Maine, and at New York’s John F. Kennedy International Airport.
In Brooklyn, New York, police were examining a package from a UPS truck after reports that a possible explosive had been found.

Two fighter jets later escorted an airliner travelling into New York from Dubai.

UPS said it was immediately suspending service out of Yemen until further notice 'because security is of the utmost importance'.

The terror alert follows calls this week from airline bosses that existing security procedures such as shoe and laptop checks should be scrapped.

Earlier this year, the US and Britain temporarily closed embassies in the Yemeni capital over fears of a terrorist attack.

A Yemen-based offshoot of al Qaeda was suspected of being behind the alleged Christmas Day bomb attempt on a jet flying to Detroit.

Speaking in the White House last night, Mr Obama said: 'I want to briefly update the American people on a credible terrorist threat against our country and the action that we have taken with our partners to respond to it.
'Last night and earlier today our intelligence and law enforcement professionals working with our friends and allies identified two suspicious packages bound for the US - specifically, two places of Jewish worship in Chicago.
'Those packages have been located in Dubai and East Midlands Airport in the UK.
'Initial examination of those packages has determined that they do apparently contain explosive material.'
He added: 'I've...directed that we spare no effort in investigating the origins of these suspicious packages and their connection to any additional terrorist plotting.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/30/article-1324948-0BD48913000005DC-949_634x413.jpg Search: Officials head straight for cargo hold to find the suspected package that has been sent from Yemen



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/30/article-1324948-0BD487DA000005DC-624_634x405.jpg Grounded: The Emirates plane on the tarmac at New York's JFK airport after being escorted down by U.S. fighters with a suspect package from Yemen on board

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/30/article-1324948-0BD4AA35000005DC-474_634x423.jpg Men walk past the offices of FedEx in Sanaa last night. Two suspicious packages being flown from Yemen to the United States were found in Britain and Dubai on Friday after a tip prompted authorities to search cargo planes on both sides of the Atlantic


'Although we are still pursuing all the facts, we do know that the packages originated in Yemen.
'We also know that al Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula, a terrorist group based in Yemen, continues to plan attacks against our homeland, our citizens, and our friends and allies.'
DEVICE SHOWS 'TERRORISTS HAVE THE ABILITY TO ADAPT'



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/30/article-1324948-0BCAF683000005DC-690_296x369.jpg The use of explosive material built into printer cartridges shows terror groups are coming up with innovative new ways to launch attacks on foreign soil, security experts said today.

The packages discovered on cargo planes in Britain and Dubai are now undergoing forensic analysis.

According to US officials initial tests indicated the use of PETN, the same powerful explosive used in the plot to blow up a plane over Detroit last Christmas.

'If this attack is by AQAP (al Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula), it demonstrates an accelerated ability to design new and innovative ways of conducting IED attacks and a focused effort to execute those attacks on US soil,' Ben Venzke, chief executive of the intelligence agency IntelCenter, said.

Mr Venzke said the group elaborated on its bomb-making philosophy in its official Arabic-language magazine, Sada al-Malahim, following the attempted Christmas Day bombing.

'The article provides insights into how the group approaches IED (improvised explosive device) design and creates devices for specific targets and operations,' he said.

'The creation of devices built into toner cartridges fits within this philosophy and would not be surprising to see coming out of AQAP.'

He quoted the article as saying: 'The using of many methods for implementation and bombings is very important because it gives flexibility to operations and the infiltration through barriers.

'The decision to use one device or another differs according to the importance of the location and the results of the blast. You have weapons that you use at the proper time. This is also subject to the conditions of the targeted place.

'The tight security inside the office of a security official under observation and guard is totally different than an aeroplane that is in the air for six hours.

'It is certain that the conditions in the later situation will be more flexible and do not raise suspicions during implementation.'

Terror expert Dr Sally Leivesley said it appeared to be a 'sophisticated' device which may have used the powdered toner as a means of evading screening.

She said the size of the device meant if it was a bomb it could cause 'devastation'.

She said: 'It's a step-jump change in terms of threat to aviation and it's extremely serious.
'These devices can be put on board anywhere.'


The U.S. and Britain have stepped up training, intelligence and aid to Yemen this year amid concerns that the country has become a major training ground for Al Qaeda and after ­specific warnings that it is targeting aircraft.
Home Secretary Theresa May confirmed the package at East Midlands did contain explosive material, but said it was not yet clear whether it was a 'viable explosive device'.
Forensic experts are still examining the find.
Ms May said Cobra, the UK government's emergency planning committee, met yesterday following the discovery and would meet again later today.
All direct flights from Yemen to the UK had been suspended, she added.
Ms May said: 'The package which originated in Yemen was removed for forensic examination by UK experts. That examination continues.
'At this stage I can say that the device did contain explosive material. But it is not yet clear that it was a viable explosive device. The forensic work continues.'
She added: 'We are reviewing the security measures for air freight from Yemen and are in discussion with industry contacts.'
The Yemeni government expressed astonishment last night at reports linking it to the two explosive packages.

In a statement distributed to journalists and appearing on the official website, the government said there were no UPS cargo planes that had taken off from Yemen, or any indirect or direct flights to British or American airports.

The statement added that the government was co-operating with the US, British and Emirati parties.
Yemen's statement warned against 'rush decisions in a case as sensitive as this one and before investigations reveal the truth'.

The government also promised an investigation into claims that the packages had originated in Yemen.
Prime Minister David Cameron, who is at his Chequers country residence, will not be attending or taking part in today's Cobra meeting.

Downing Street said Mr Cameron had spoken to the Home Secretary last night, and was being kept up to date with the situation.
Former Home Secretary Lord Reid said there was a 'huge and continuing threat' from terrorism.

He told BBC News: 'The important thing is to remember that even when there are no incidents like this, there is still a huge and continuing threat from terrorism, not just al Qaida but its affiliates and in some cases from brand new groupings.

'We've got to get away from this idea that if we go a period of time without an incident like this that somehow we can reduce vigilance and reduce security at airports.'

He said it was 'unclear' whether this was a 'dry run', but it would be 'unwise to assume that because we have detected these two (devices) that there aren't any more out there'.

He added: 'What no government can guarantee is 100% success because, to use the old adage, we have to be successful every time in our counter terrorist operations, the terrorists only have to be successful once.'



The latest aviation security alert involving suspect cargo packages is almost certainly bound to end hopes of an easing of airport checks for UK passengers.
Earlier this week British Airways chairman Martin Broughton had suggested that some parts of the security programme were now 'completely redundant'.
He added that there was no need to 'kowtow to the Americans every time they wanted something done'.
Mr Broughton had added: 'We should say, 'We'll only do things which we consider essential and that you Americans also consider essential'.'
The BA chairman's views were supported by many leading figures in UK aviation.
Mike Carrivick, chairman of the Board of Airline Representatives, which speaks for 80 UK carriers, said: 'Every time there is a new security scare, an extra layer of security is added. We need to have a look at the whole situation.'

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/30/article-1324948-0BD57F3B000005DC-454_634x454.jpg A Yemeni employee serves a customer at a branch of the US package delivery firm UPS in Sanaa this morning

Colin Matthews, chief executive of airport operator BAA, called for 'rationalising' of security checks and former security minister Lord West said security had gone too far and could be made 'much less onerous'.
UK Transport secretary Philip Hammond said he would allow airlines to look at how they could 'ease the passenger experience'.
But that now looks a forlorn hope, with the hard-pressed passenger likely to face more, rather than fewer, checks.
The latest situation also strengthens the US argument that it is right for America to insist on the tightest of security, and the fullest of information about passengers, for flights from the UK to the USA.
With the UK's Air Passenger Duty (APD) airport departure tax due to rise on Monday, longer queues at UK airport security points will add to the problems

Capot
30th Oct 2010, 13:54
isn't it more likely that this was an attempt to send large letter bombs to the addressees?

Of course it was; it was no more an attack on an aircraft as it would have been an attack on the mailvan that finally delivered it.

It was a low-level and silly attempt; so silly that there must be a suspicion that it was a diversion or had some other ulterior purpose.

Al Qa'ida has much bigger fish to fry than a building used by some Jews.

lomapaseo
30th Oct 2010, 14:35
Anything of interest in all this to the aviation passenger side?

Most of the discussion above is political and well covered in the press.

PaperTiger
30th Oct 2010, 15:31
it was no more an attack on an aircraft as it would have been an attack on the mailvan that finally delivered it.It seems the Hon. Ms May disagrees: U.K. official: Aircraft was likely target of attack - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/10/30/security.concern/index.html?hpt=T1)

It does seem a strange 'plot'.
If the intent was to blow up a cargo plane, why draw attention by addressing the device to a synagogue ? And why waste a bomb on a frieghter anyway ?
If the intent was to bomb the synagogue(s), how on earth would they know exactly when to detonate, assuming the 'cell phone' was a viable method.

More to come I'm sure. Well, perhaps not (shhh !).

ETA: another thought: why in the name of Jaweh would anyone at a synagogue accept an unexpected package from Yemen ?

cwatters
30th Oct 2010, 16:24
All they have to do is call the mobile when it's mid atlantic and leave voicemail while it's out of range. Then when phone gets in range again...

Given that mobiles have been used as triggers many times before... Is it safe for airlines to install base stations in planes?

CGN32R
30th Oct 2010, 19:54
A little update on this: Star Air a/c was evacuated, but not searched, due to the fact that it stood next to UPS Philadelphia a/c where the package was found. UPS was coming from CGN.

MG23
30th Oct 2010, 20:20
Given that mobiles have been used as triggers many times before... Is it safe for airlines to install base stations in planes?

If the bad guys can get bombs on planes then being able to remotely detonate them is the least of your worries.

But the idea that they're trying to destroy planes makes little sense; why would they then address the package to a synagogue, when they could have picked a completely innocent address which would have been far less likely to raise suspicion?

lakelure
30th Oct 2010, 22:52
Anyone else wonder why the Emerites 777 captain didn't ask the fighters and ATC to be escorted to the nearest suitable airport? Flying for over an hour past viable airports doesn't sound like it is in the best interest of his passengers. Land, get the airplane searched, then press on.
Continuing to fly towards the populated area of NYC makes me wonder if Homeland Security didn't make a tactical mistake as well.

tailstrikecharles
30th Oct 2010, 23:10
Anyone else wonder why the Emerites 777 captain didn't ask the fighters and ATC to be escorted to the nearest suitable airport?

Cause that would open up a financial can of worms, with landing fees, refueling, turnaround time delays,etc.
Besides, they already had F-16s hovering beside them in a Show Of Farce

Hotel Tango
31st Oct 2010, 06:58
in a Show Of Farce

:ok: :) Excellent, I like that very much.

El Grifo
31st Oct 2010, 09:28
My bugbear being the UK declaration that the first printer discovered at EMA was "sinister looking but harmless" has finally been addressed.

It is now being admitted that first examinations overlooked the fact that it may have contained explosive material.


This from a BBC website made me chuckle however :-

Must keep public afraid of a bogeyman. Check.

Bogeyman must have a Middle East connection. Check.

Needs to be somewhere new, to highlight the scale of the threat, Afghanistan is getting a bit too familiar to them. Check.

Needs to look like the US & UK could both have been hit. Check.

Must have some sort of physical evidence, show them some pictures of circuit board things, they look like they could be some kind of sophsiticated bomb - they'll never know the difference. Check.

cwatters
31st Oct 2010, 10:31
But the idea that they're trying to destroy planes makes little sense; why would they then address the package to a synagogue, when they could have picked a completely innocent address which would have been far less likely to raise suspicion?

It sounds like a mixture of different devices were sent. Perhaps those were designed to go off when fitted into the printer/copier?

ATNotts
31st Oct 2010, 10:41
El Grifo:

Which BBC web page. As far I can see BBC News website has no Forums (Fora?) on the event and your quote doesn't look like the stuff normally written by a BBC journalist who wants to keep their job!

I really do not believe the assertion by DC that the UK package was intended to explode in flight. If anything was likely to raise suspicion then it would sure be a package sent from Yemen to a Jewish address in the USA. If you wanted to blow up the aircraft then surely addressing it to any old John Doe in Hicksville, Arizona would be less likely to draw attention en route.

I think statements from both sides of the atlantic to the effect the target was the aircraft are just propaganda to justify clamping down on the international package industry, to the extent they could easily kill, or seriously injure it's future.

cwatters
31st Oct 2010, 10:42
Any of you watch TV programs like "Border patrol"? (There are several that cover the work of customs staff in places like the UK or NZ)..

They seem to intercept an awful lot of parcels on arrival suggesting that departure checks on packages from some countries are very poor.

forget
31st Oct 2010, 10:49
They seem to intercept an awful lot of parcels on arrival suggesting that departure checks on packages from some countries are very poor.

How does that follow? The country of departure doesn't care what's in a box, within reason. I can send a box of apples to Oz or NZ tomorrow. It'll certainly leave UK - but it won't get past Ag and Fish at the other end.

Hotel Tango
31st Oct 2010, 12:18
Kneejerk reactions begin. Germany has issued NOTAMN stating that no flights dep an airport within the Rep of Yemen are allowed to enter German airspace, neither for overflight or landing.

That will help! :hmm:

LH2
31st Oct 2010, 13:34
...and who is this "talking head" knitwit gushing on CNN right now?....the difference between "commercial" and "freight" appears to be lost on him.

Ahem! :rolleyes: :ugh:

And welcome henceforth to my ignore list, btw :cool:

staplefordheli
31st Oct 2010, 14:41
I dont know if it has been posted on here so appologies, but the device was actually uplifted for further investigations by Leics Police air support units EC call sign HX55 before being declared later as explosive
There is even a pic in saturdays Telgraph of it being loaded on board

The implications of that going off on board a confined space like a chopper dont need explantation on here
Surely a foolhardy decission, even if it had been a purely innocent object in the end
What if it had been a concealled chemical aerosol spray, like Sarin that went off 1000 feet over a town en route

Cargo plane bomb plot in pictures - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/8098808/Cargo-plane-bomb-plot-in-pictures.html?image=1)

Bill Harris
31st Oct 2010, 15:06
My take, FWIW? Given the loose ends on how the was done, AQ might not have been wanting to bomb the Synagogues as much as was simply testing security and seeing what the response would be like. As it were, this may simply be a prelude to something bigger down the road...

--Bill

Flightmech
31st Oct 2010, 15:06
Who was the expert from BALPA on the TV/radio Saturday who stated that cargo pilots go through less stringent security procedures than their counterparts who fly pax:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Buckster
31st Oct 2010, 15:18
ref Stapleford - we have no idea of the actual timeline so none of us can comment really - for all we know it may have been made safe before it was transported on for further investigation.

what is actually reported/stated isn't necessarily exactly whats going on - for obvious reasons.

daz211
31st Oct 2010, 15:31
What I dont understand Is how do the people who sent these packages know what A/C and route and timings the packages are going to be on its not like you can go to a shipping office and book a box from point A to point B via point C and D so if you wanted to blow up an A/C over a city or even country it would be be quite hard.

n20junkie
31st Oct 2010, 15:55
So put a counting altimeter switch. Which leg of the trip do you want it to go off?

There are easy solutions for the bad guys, so we need to stop it before it gets in the belly of an aircraft.

johns7022
31st Oct 2010, 16:33
Some thoughts -

These terrorists that made these 'bombs' sent off 15 or so of these bombs...they are smart enough to mix up PETN, but none of them actually explode...

Then when they are found, somehow, inside of boxes, inside a printer...the law enforcement in their infinite wisdom, in the interests of tracking down international terrorists...splash all over the news, in detail how the bombs were made, and where they originated..

So anyone in Yemen, has all the time in the world to run off to some other country and not get caught..

Probable? Stupid? Conspiracy? Incompetent?

More and more I wonder if Bin Ladin is on a beach somewhere, beard shaved off, funneling money to the terrorists, with other entities, trying to catch him, hope this party never ends...

The Cold War lasted 50 years...maybe we can drag out this terrorist thing that long as well...get the budgets up...

daz211
31st Oct 2010, 17:24
At the end off the day even if we could have 100% security on all A/C what is the point when anyone could just walk into any London Airport with a bag full of who knows what and kill 100's of people its much easier and cheaper you would still get all the news coverage and cause national panic even more so than blowing up one cargo A/C the problem is until it happens nothing will be done as always.

BillS
31st Oct 2010, 17:52
That is all well and good if you want it to go off once it has been signed for and delivered but you cant track your item inflight. you can get updates on a package saying what dept/hub it is in but it wont tell you what A/C it is on and it wont show you the position of said A/C whilst in flight.
But you can (http://www.howtodothings.com/electronics/how-to-track-a-cell-phone) and it will!

(If cellphone coverage has not been disrupted)

daz211
31st Oct 2010, 18:09
You clearly dont know how cargo ops work many UPS/FEDEX/DHL/TNT parcles are sent by Air with other Air cargo companies and never even get onto a UPS aircraf the same goes for all cargo companies and many packages dont even see a cargo flight they go onto passenger flighs.

tailstrikecharles
31st Oct 2010, 19:18
Saudis provided key intelligence in identifying suspicious packages - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/10/29/us.security.concern.intel/index.html?hpt=T1)

(CNN) -- Saudi Arabia played a key role in providing intelligence that led to the interception of suspicious packages in at least two locations abroad that were bound for the United States -- including the packages' tracking numbers -- officials said Friday
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/US/10/29/us.security.concern.intel/story.cargo.update2.jpg
The circuit board bears similarities to a cell-phone, according to experts.*


Lets see.. they had the TRACKING NUMBERS.. Last time I got a "tracking number" is when I ACTUALLY SENT THE PACKAGE MYSELF.
Why the hell would the tracking number be useful in an operational sense?
To get a reimbursement from payroll?
Generally, as an Al Qaeda operative, I usually take those expenses out of petty cash ahead of time, vs paying 'out of pocket' and sending in receipts.



*No doubt due to it's flimsy construction yet high price and requirement for a 2 year contract, the ability to play games, view video, have sex,blow up aircraft but be very poor for actually making and receiving PHONE CALLS (There's an APP for that!)

BillS
31st Oct 2010, 21:12
The circuit board bears similarities to a cell-phone, according to experts.

Well it does have D321 printed on it (bottom left)
That does help to identify it!
A Duo 321 Dual SIM GSM .... not just the cheapest model!

Ex Cargo Clown
1st Nov 2010, 00:06
100g of PETN in a printer.....

You'd be lucky to take me down with that, never mind an aircraft. And if you use lead azide, you would have to be extremely lucky. It's very sensitive, and there is not a cat in hells chance anyone would go that route. You'd have to be very stupid, or very intelligent.

mtogw
1st Nov 2010, 06:10
Couriers pick ups or over the counter shipments used to have to be left open for the contents to be checked before being accepted from unknown shippers, but even a quick sweep of the manifest should raise alarm bells, A printer carrtidge Origin:Yemen Destination: Synagogues in Chicago. That wouldn't strike anyone as odd??/!!

Sick Squid
1st Nov 2010, 08:51
It's fair to say this thread is borderline, showing both the best of this site, and the worst.

Conspiracy-theory tinfoil-hat brigade, go elsewhere please. Also those who wish to register to make a post that consists of two words, neither of which make sense even when considered on their own, please follow the person with the tinfoil-hat.

THAT is why it keeps getting banged down to the nether regions of the site, because of the quality, or lack thereof, of the contributions. I'm sticking my neck out against the consensus of the moderators to bring it back up here, for goodness sake don't let me down.

Basically, if you have nothing to say, say nothing. If you want to hang some massive conspiracy on these events, then at least have the decency to wait till there is more information first, and until that occurs go tell it to your budgie. If you put it on here it will be deleted, do it again and you will be banned for wasting our time.

Squid

offa
1st Nov 2010, 11:45
Instead of imposing further restrictions perhaps someone at UPS / Fedex could come up with a little software program such as ....

IF destination = jewish synagogue
AND sender = yemen OR afghanistan
THEN be VERY suspicious
ELSE be suspicious

Ex Cargo Clown
1st Nov 2010, 12:47
I've said it once, and I'll say it again even at the risk of being banned.

There is no way on this planet that 100g of PETN could bring an aircraft down, it's inside a printer cartridge, in a printer, in a container.

As decent an explosive PETN is, I really don't think it would have caused that much damage. (Cue somebody going on about Lockerbie etc).

We've already had the ridiculous liquid rules enforced on us, are we now going to have powder rules?

Mr Optimistic
1st Nov 2010, 13:11
My first thought was say goodbye to the increasing comms opportunities for pax and do I own shares in companies making phone jammers. Second thought was hang on, a phone, in a parcel, in a pallet, in a metal tube is unlikely to ring isn't it ?

Also, if up to tricks, why use anything other than an anodyne unremarkable destination address, why even a real one, unless, of course that's where you wanted them to go.

Ex Cargo Clown
1st Nov 2010, 13:53
There is something exceptionally "iffy" about all of this. There is no way on this planet you could just stuff 100g of PETN into a cartridge without it detonating, or it would just decompose, there is plenty of alcohol in even an empty cartridge.

Secondly, there is the volume issue, I don't think you could actually fit it in there, PETN has a density of 1.73, I'm pretty sure you cannot fit 100g in a printer cartridge.

Thirdly, the detonation. How was it to be achieved? Mobile phone? On an aircraft? And I mean if they were going to detonate it over a city, why make it suspicious by addressing it to a synagogue. You may as well have addressed it to the Whitehouse.

Ex Cargo Clown
1st Nov 2010, 14:01
Ok, I'm just about to head off to the lab with an empty cartridge. I shall fill it with something nice and safe around that density, and then come back with the weights.

Dave Gittins
1st Nov 2010, 14:05
Did I hear correctly on the BBC Today programme this morning that (irrespective of the viability of the supposed device) the one found in Dubai was on a Qatar Airways flight and had already travelled 2 legs as freight in the hold of pax carrying Qatari flights to get from Yemen to Dubai ?

Mr Optimistic
1st Nov 2010, 14:05
Putty would do perhaps. Also I wouldn't be quite as sanguine about the effects of a quarter of a pound although its been a while.

Ex Cargo Clown
1st Nov 2010, 14:37
And the answer is 22g into a Canon printer cartridge, with something that has the density of PETN.

So where has the 100g figure come from? I couldn't even blow my nose, never mind an airliner down with 20-ish of PETN. That's not even taking into account of how you would then stick the far denser lead azide in, without detonating it.

Something is not adding up here, it was never going to be detonated onboard the aircraft. It's just not enough, PETN is easily hidden in large quantites, so if you were taking a city out, do it that way.

And then again, if you were going to kill the unfortunate user of the ink cartridge, then why put a mobile phone detonater into the package? You could get it to go with just the electric from the printer. I assume that was the plan, nothing to do with aircraft terrorism, so why this mobile phone bit?

Occam's Razor suggests there is more to this than meets the eye.

forget
1st Nov 2010, 14:48
Occam's Razor suggests there is more to this than meets the eye.

Agreed. Would the actual 'stuff' explode or catch fire? If the latter, and it had got through, then burning down synagogues by remote control could have attractions for the bad guys. Very Low Risk v High Satisfaction Return.

sky9
1st Nov 2010, 14:49
Try supposing that the cartridge was a laser cartridge which is a great deal larger.

I was surprised to read in the Guardian
"One official told the Guardian that the bomb inside a computer printer discovered at East Midlands airport on Friday, en route from Yemen to Chicago, was "one of the most sophisticated we've seen … The naked eye won't pick it up, experienced bomb officers did not see it, x-ray screening is highly unlikely to catch it.""

Are we really to believe than an X-Ray screening wouldn't pick up the amateur electrical modifications with the mobile phone circuit board attached to the other board by the use of wires (tailstrikecharlie)?

I would be interested to know whether the mobile phone companies tracked the mobile as is passed over the whole of Europe being passed from cell to cell at 600 MPH.

Ex Cargo Clown
1st Nov 2010, 15:03
I would be interested to know whether the mobile phone companies tracked the mobile as is passed over the whole of Europe being passed from cell to cell at 600 MPH.

I very much doubt it, plus what would be the point? Imagine it on a pax aircraft, anyone may have left it on.

Strangely, the "terrorists" have caused more problems than they would have if the "bombs" had actually gone off.

You cannot screen cargo or pax for that matter at the first instance. It needs profiling. I'm sure you or I, or most of the board could take all manner of silliness onboard, but we don't.

The TSA, for all their ills at least have a bit of common sense. I travelled there with a rucksack that had previously had all manner of organic-nitro compounds in it. I keep my labcoat in it. Did I get stopped from travelling, no. Why? Because I clearly didn't fit that profile. I just had a joke with them, and then got on the flight (RNO by the way).

Mr Optimistic
1st Nov 2010, 15:20
looked like a toner cartridge to me. Can't see how an xray screener has much hope without exceptional scrutiny.

Ex Cargo Clown
1st Nov 2010, 15:32
I will have a go at a toner cartridge then, although having seen one, my instinct tells me, it is going to be nowhere near 100g.

Mr Optimistic
1st Nov 2010, 15:38
TonerTopUp toner refills simply refill your Hewlett-Packard COLOR LASERJET 4700dn 30PPM COLOR PTR laser cartridge. (http://www.tonertopup.co.uk/productCatalog.asp?manufacturer=123&model=COLOR+LASERJET+4700dn+30PPM+COLOR+PTR&engine=CANON+LBP/HP+COLOR+LJ+4700+COLOR+TNR)

Ex Cargo Clown
1st Nov 2010, 15:50
Ok, tried that, yes you can get 100g, just about, of high explosive into them, but no way on this planet would anyone be mad enough to then stuff in some lead azide.

I'd try it, but I'm not entirely sure how I would COSHH it.

Pre-screening is the answer, both for pax and freight.

fdr
1st Nov 2010, 16:05
pondering...

Wonder how many pages they get out of refilled toner cartridges... :D

Probably would clear the paper jams... :\

A breach of DGR's... someone gonna get it for the paperwork? I mean, carrying 1.1's on a pax plane.... no Class 1 label... no CAO label, no NOTOC... what is the point of those months of accumulated study on ICAO Annex 18, Doc 9284 TI's and IATA's DGR if de-gruntled people just up and disregard the rules. Next someone will say the JAA exams are not grounded in reality. And it is probably a telecoms breach to mess with the phone, forget abut voiding the warranty.... of course the phone probably was registered for warranty though... (remember the guys getting their deposit back from the rental truck... WTC round 1?).

Of course next time someone turns on their cell phone on board a plane and happens to be profusely sweating, there is gonna be a riot, just like Mr Reid's defective shoes..... Probably just cured the RFI problem. Thanks.

Just as well that the mex'cans don't include wire with their white powder imports to the US of A, would put the drug trade in a poor light. Just as well the DEA has such a great handle on the trade. :hmm:

Would anyone answer if they tried a reverse call?:8

With intel this good, perhaps the cavity search of pilots etc is just for fun after all.:)

Could be a new cargo opportunity placing underfloor freight on hajj flights, would reduce the risk considerably. A growth opportunity for Saudia and Qatar, Etihad, and Emirates? :ok:

Assuming the AQ reads these pages or watches CNNN & BBBC, guess the next address will be to a Mosque near the WTC site just to throw the sleuths off the scent.... :=

Security was, is and will always be about having a program that sequences through it's operational cycle faster than the other guy.... (+ luck). The defences of the western world are hampered (well... a bit... not as much as before the "Patriot Act"...) by the very differences to the world of the device forwarders. Do the bad guys win when the rest of the world becomes as ruthless and backward as them and their benefactors, the Taliban? Odd deliverable...

3rd rock, what a place.:E

Just gets better and better


FDR


PS: Ibrahim Hassan al-Asiri the ostensible bomb maker, is of course the one who provided the oompf for his brothers rapid ascension to the promised land, courtesy of a bottom load of PETN. Brotherly love. When he is apprehended, suggest the feds don't shake his hand, you know where it has been...

PPS: al-Asiri, thanks for the cavity checks....

patrickal
1st Nov 2010, 16:33
Everyone seems to be hung up on this particular set of devices. My guess is that this was a test. A number of different designs (in packaging, shipment and destination) were sent. Those that make the news are the designs that will be discarded. The design that no one catches will be used in the real attack, which will occur anywhere between now and 5 years. Don't ever underestimate the intelligence or patience of your enemy.

canard68
1st Nov 2010, 16:38
Toner cartridges banned in pax bags from midnight , well we can travel safely now!

cwatters
1st Nov 2010, 17:50
Why the hell would the tracking number be useful in an operational sense?

Perhaps to help find the IP address of the computers used to track the packages on-line?

GarageYears
1st Nov 2010, 18:23
If they were intended for use against aircraft, then why weren't they detonated?

It would be perceived as a rather different message (albeit small from some perspectives) should an in-bound US flight get blown out of the sky, versus one just leaving Yemen for example. :uhoh:

- GY

rgbrock1
1st Nov 2010, 19:00
This exercise was not intended to blow a cargo airliner out of the sky. Nor was it intended to blow up a synagogue, for what should be obvious reasons.

This was an exercise. A well published exercise at that. It's intent was met.

The senders of the "package" had no idea on how it would be routed with the ultimate destination being the U.S.

They know now. Exactly.

And will probably plan their next action based on what they've learned. Using different routings.

No conspiracy involved. No tin-foil hats need be donned. It's tradecraft, pure and simple.

lomapaseo
1st Nov 2010, 19:12
rgbrock1


This exercise was not intended to blow a cargo airliner out of the sky. Nor was it intended to blow up a synagogue, for what should be obvious reasons.

This was an exercise. A well published exercise at that. It's intent was met.

The senders of the "package" had no idea on how it would be routed with the ultimate destination being the U.S.

They know now. Exactly.

And will probably plan their next action based on what they've learned. Using different routings.

No conspiracy involved. No tin-foil hats need be donned. It's tradecraft, pure and simple.


One can interpret as many messages in this act as one believes or wants somebody else to believe.

I for one agree 100% with what rgbrock1 has said.

To me its like the kid shaking up his ant farm toy to watch how confused the ants react before setling down to the business as usual approach of rebuilding the damage.

HalloweenJack
1st Nov 2010, 19:19
BBC News - Air freight from Yemen and Somalia banned (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11669636)

Toner cartridges over 500g will also be banned from hand baggage on UK flights


Horse, door, stable, bolted, etc.

I honestly wonder what motivates these decisions.

"OMG, somebody put a bomb INSIDE something, well lets ban the thing that they put the bomb into, that'll solve the problem"

Let's just skip a few steps and arrive at the logical conclusion as determined by current security process - ban people and cargo from all flights - problem solved.

Lord Spandex Masher
1st Nov 2010, 19:39
[QUOTE=rgbrock1;6032025]The senders of the "package" had no idea on how it would be routed with the ultimate destination being the U.S.

They know now. Exactly.

And will probably plan their next action based on what they've learned. Using different routings. [QUOTE]

How are they going to use different routings? You've already stated they had no idea which route would be used so they won't know if the same one will be used again or not. And anyway they can't pick and choose which way it goes once it's been checked in (or whatever it's called in freightland).

It also begs the question of why they would need to know the exact routing if they are going to use a different one next time? Also why would they care which route it took as long as it got to it's destination?

But ultimately, if it was a dry run, they have just alerted the entire world to the method they would be using for the 'real thing'. Gun, foot, shoot.


Stupid quote thingy

rgbrock1
1st Nov 2010, 19:52
LSM:

What you are doing is looking at the trees and not the forest.

The senders of these packages are more concerned with reaction to a perceived event than anything else. HOW we react. HOW QUICKLY we react. WHAT is done in reaction, etc.

They'll use different routings in the future for the exact same reason.

In parts of the Infantry it's known as probing the enemies' defenses. First in one area, then another. See how he reacts. And adjust tactics accordingly.

For as evil as these people truly are, they are not stupid.

ExSp33db1rd
1st Nov 2010, 19:55
The TSA, ...................... I just had a joke with them, and then got on the flight


You JOKED with them !!! Got a death wish, have you ?

Early in the start of the present so-called Security nonsense, a friend of mine - not a frequent traveller - turned up with a bottle of Scotch in his bag, admitted that he wasn't thinking, took it out, gave it to the guy with a playful pat on the shoulder and a merry quip, such as "be my guest, it's yours mate, enjoy a drink when you get home" or words and actions to that effect.

Left, Right, Left Right etc. you TOUCHED a Dept. of Homeland Security Govt. Agent !! - and he's now on a full Body Cavity Search list every time he goes near a US airport.

World's Gone Mad.

tailstrikecharles
1st Nov 2010, 19:58
cwatters Quote:Why the hell would the tracking number be useful in an operational sense?

Perhaps to help find the IP address of the computers used to track the packages on-line?
^ I am sorry if I didn't make myself clear:
Remember, Saudi Arabia broke the news of the plot, revealing the actual PACKAGE TRACKING NUMBERS
My question was, why would they (terrorists) need to link themselves to the payload by having themselves associated in anyway with something as identifiably unique as a TRACKING NUMBER, THAT ONLY THE ACTUAL TERRORIST WOULD HAVE??

If *I* was the terrorist, I would love to have the tracking numbers - to see that my stooge actually SENT the package (I would have someone else log on to Fed Ex/UPS and track it) from a tradecraft perspective however, I would not. I dont NEED to have them - I'll just watch the news for signs of boom.

The point I was trying to make was, having the actual tracking numbers means someone very very intimately involved in the EXECUTION phase, i.e. trigger man, bomb delivery guy etc.

This is supported by articles on IntelligenceOnline.com and other sources suggesting that Saudi Arabia has been actively infiltrating groups (Kinda like the FBI and the civil rights movement) So their man, blew the news when he was supposed to, after playing the game all the way up to delivery.

So in short, their man, went along, did what he was supposed to do, then sent the tracking number(s) to his handlers to allow a photo-op interception, burnishing the bona-fides of our Saudi allies.

Rgbrock... you may be reading too much into or giving these guys too much credit.
Besides, why expend valuable resources on a 'fact finding mission'?

Real bombs are relatively cheap - resources to deliver them are not.
You can 'test' just as well with a real bomb as a fake one.
This smells more like a cultured 'sting' operation with the trap sprung around budget/election time.

Lord Spandex Masher
1st Nov 2010, 20:01
I hear you RGB, but there are a million ways to get something from A to B, I just don't understand the reason why they would want to have a dry run. Just make a bomb and send it. Bang. That works because they've just proved it. They wouldn't need to adjust any tactics because what happens will be totally out of the blue, and effective.

I'm pretty sure by now that they'll know exactly what the reaction is going to be (useless and over the top but that's not the point).

rgbrock1
1st Nov 2010, 20:03
Tailstrike:

I may indeed be giving these "guys" too much credit BUT as distasteful and utterly reprehensible it is, it takes quite a "mind" to come up with the idea of using jet aircraft
as guided missiles. And flying those guided missiles into large buildings.

Know the enemy. In every way.

LSM: Who knows what these "people" think or how they think it. No one would have given much credence, back before 9/11, about using jet aircraft as guided missiles.
Yet it was done. Who knows what these crazies are plotting this time. But they are probing.

PaperTiger
1st Nov 2010, 20:11
...takes quite a "mind" to come up with the idea of using jet aircraft
as guided missiles. And flying those guided missiles into large buildings.Irrelevant as this is to the discussion, several authors had used this plot 'device' well prior to 9/11. And a Hollywood b-movie.

Not rocket science, in fact no science at all.

tailstrikecharles
1st Nov 2010, 20:25
papertiger, you are absolutely right, but rather than have someone point out (correctly) that the FBI, CIA et al have better things to do than read Tom Clancy novels as a source for red herrings to chase, (the Cobra Event, notwithstanding see: Richard Preston (http://www.richardpreston.net/books/ce.html)) please see this

Bojinka plot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojinka_plot)

The Bojinka plot was well known to the community prior to Sept 11.
The Bojinka plot (Arabic: بجنكة‎; Tagalog: Oplan Bojinka) was a planned large-scale terrorist attack by Ramzi Yousef and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed to blow up twelve airliners[1] and their approximately 4,000 passengers as they flew from Asia to the United States. The term can also refer to a combination of plots by Yousef and Mohammed to take place in January 1995, including a plot to assassinate Pope John Paul II. Murad proposed to crash a plane into the CIA headquarters in Fairfax County, Virginia in addition to a plan to bomb multiple airliners, which leads credence that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed evolved this plot into the 9-11 airliner attacks.[2]

AndoniP
1st Nov 2010, 20:49
looks like that mobile circuit board doesnt even have a battery attached to it. so it wouldn't even have the power to operate the board and hence receive the call.
i like the way in which the media called it a 'simcard'.
nice :E

so does anyone here actually believe obama when he says it's a credible plot?

Lonewolf_50
1st Nov 2010, 21:04
Ya know what they say?

HP printers are da bomb! :ok:
(I'll be here all week, try the veal chowder ... )

rg and patrick strike me as correct: this is evidence of a probe.

What is a bit more interesting to consider is the probes and attempts that have not been spotted ... yet.

I am not pleased that the public have been informed of how the Ex Gitmo guest was involved. At some point, people in the official word need to know how to STFU.

OPSEC

tailstrikecharles
1st Nov 2010, 21:17
I am not pleased that the public have been informed of how the Ex Gitmo guest was involved. At some point, people in the official word need to know how to STFU.

Grow up.*

In an open society. Information will ALWAYS come out (i.e. Wikileaks, Govt officials "Not authorized to speak to the media, etc")

The solution, as always, is to put disinformation out there - 'chaff' to you wwII boffin types.

So what? if this guy is 'outed'?

He was already outed when it was revealed they had the UPS/FedEx tracking #'s.

The value for revealing that HE was one of THEM is that it casts doubt on all the people that they currently have, it introduces SOME hesitancy and doubt, and plans unknown yet advanced may be delayed while parameters are rechecked and reassured. (giving us more time to catch them)

In any event, you cant talk ANY of the info at face value, you can only store it up, weigh it against incoming, often contradictory new info and update your decision matrix accordingly.



* If you are already grown up, kindly disregard :)

Lonewolf_50
1st Nov 2010, 21:25
Tailstrike, in re your asterisk, and the the telephone pole sticking out of thine eye socket ... :cool:

Revealing sources and methods is not good policy.

That said, tend to agree on your idea of chaffe here and there, even though such an approach risks tarring all output as chaffe.

Wait, we are discussing governments here.

No win situation.

chucko
1st Nov 2010, 21:58
Who on earth carries toner cartridges in their carry-on luggage?

tailstrikecharles
1st Nov 2010, 22:05
I do. Or did :(

Travelling barefoot and without underwear now is starting to chafe. :(

Oh,btw, boys and girls - you can say you heard it here first.

Come Jan 1, you will have to take the battery off your laptop and ship it seperately through the x-ray machine (Do try to not be in a hurry when going through security)

It will probably take more time than 300 mile drive now.
( 1/2 hr to park/return rental car, 2hrs inside, 1hr to retrieve your bits after fighting your way off the plane and the overloaded fatties, then get new rental car..)

My New Plan.

Iphone and android phone (on two networks for redundancy) with Remote Desktop software to access primary desktop over a tunneling connection.

staplefordheli
1st Nov 2010, 22:28
Am I the only one left wondering in the days of suicide bombers , how changing the regulations to only allow only accompanied hold freight packages from Yemen and other AQ states will make things any safer.

These individuals care not if they die in the process so I fail to see how these new measure will help in any way

PaperTiger
1st Nov 2010, 23:44
The Bojinka plot was well known to the community prior to Sept 11.
charles, I don't know whether you're agreeing or taking issue (I can't always tell ;) ), but my point is that the 9/11 scenario was not a complete bolt from the blue. In one of his books Richard Clarke says it was discussed (see: Threats about Airplanes as Weapons Prior to 9/11 (http://www.justiceblind.com/airplanes.html)) but nothing specific was done wrt countermeasures.

I just hope there's better 'war-gaming' going on nowadays, even involving wacko novels and movies if necessary. This can't be left to the DHS/TSA reacting with some non-sequitur as usual.

Boomerang_Butt
2nd Nov 2010, 05:19
Anyone here also have the feeling that rather than a dry run this might be the

"Hey, look over here, yes here, come see what we're doing with these parcels" :8

Meanwhile what they're really up to is occurring in a totally different arena and everyone is now fixated on cargo, toner cartridges and other such things. :=

IIRC, it was a requirement to remove laptop batteries at many airports until 1 or 2 years ago, well in Oz at least. Was actually wondering where that went the other day....

Desert Dawg
2nd Nov 2010, 07:01
@ Boomerang Butt,

I was thinking exactly the same thing as I watched the news unfold earlier this week...

The oldest trick in the book.. sleight-of-hand... "look here... while we do another thing under the table.."

Or perhaps it was not a dry-run and the devices failed to ignite (thankfully!!) due to some error on the terrorists part?

What I find most disturbing is that both parcels flew out of Yemen on QR passenger flights before transitioning to standard cargo flights..!!

BarbiesBoyfriend
2nd Nov 2010, 09:29
Am I the only one waiting for the 'meeja' to mention that a UPS 747 recently went on fire and crashed?

Surely there has to be a chance that the UPS was the first attack and the current 'toner' bombs, the second.

Greenpilots
2nd Nov 2010, 11:38
This is a total non-sense. Sorry, but which serious terrorist would build a bomb and put it on a cargo plane from Yemen? That story stinks!
If you really wanted to hurt modern society, there are so many things to do which are much easier. Just find some local guys that put a bomb in a bag which they deposit/forget/whatever at a train station or similar, have a few of them explode and there you go. But honestly, some unimportant cargo aircraft that nobody cares about (normally)? I am not buying it...

Ex Cargo Clown
2nd Nov 2010, 11:59
It gets fishier and fishier the more I think about it.

Lead azide compounds will detonate if you drop them a foot or so, they are incredibly sensitive.

Having seen ramp rats around aircraft enough times there is no way it would have not gone off. Whoever put it into the container/pallet either got very lucky, or there is something very odd going on here.

brakedwell
2nd Nov 2010, 12:15
This is a total non-sense. Sorry, but which serious terrorist would build a bomb and put it on a cargo plane from Yemen? That story stinks!
If you really wanted to hurt modern society, there are so many things to do which are much easier. Just find some local guys that put a bomb in a bag which they deposit/forget/whatever at a train station or similar, have a few of them explode and there you go. But honestly, some unimportant cargo aircraft that nobody cares about (normally)? I am not buying it...

There are no scheduled Cargo flights operating through Yemen. Both packages were flown from Sanaa to Doha in Qatar Airways A320 scheduled passenger flights. "Some unimportant cargo aircraft that nobody cares about". What a load of b****x. A bombed B747F crashing onto a highly populated town/city would be a massive publicity coup for Al Qaeda.

PAXboy
2nd Nov 2010, 12:55
BBC reporting of a 'dry run' in September: BBC News - Parcel bomb plotters 'used dry run', say US officials (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11671377)

A US official has told the BBC that suspect packages from Yemen were intercepted in September, in what may have been a dry run for last week's foiled parcel bomb plot.

Ex Cargo Clown
2nd Nov 2010, 13:06
A bombed B747F crashing onto a highly populated town/city would be a massive publicity coup for Al Qaeda.

And how on Earth would you know the routing? And how would you detonate it?

If you have the technology to make lead azide and PETN, then surely you would use a GPS or barometric device. Not a mobile phone circuit.

I'm still struggling to see the logic in this.

So they were either going to blow a Rabbi's printer up, which is highly unlikely, or try and "down" an aircraft over a city, which also incredibly unlikely with that amount of PETN.

PaperTiger
2nd Nov 2010, 13:20
Geir Moulson, The Associated Press
BERLIN - The mail bombs intercepted last week contained 10.58 ounces (300 grams) and 15.11 ounces (400 grams) of the explosive PETN, a German security official said Monday"400 I'm bid."
"Any advance on 400 ?"
"To you, Sir. The gentleman with the mirrored sunglasses and earpiece."
"400 then."
"Going once...."

:ugh:

Ex Cargo Clown
2nd Nov 2010, 13:37
PETN is not hard to synthesize, I'm surprised anyone would send it through the mail though. I could make kilos of the stuff by 5PM today, I won't because I'm not precluded to that kind of stuff.

But by your logic lead azide was sent there as well? I wouldn't mind making that in a fumehood, under inert conditions, and very cold, but how would someone in the Yemen get hold of that? If it was there then it has come from somewhere.

Quite where that somewhere is is probably now the question.

Also I am not convinced about what exactly was their aim. Detonate it over a city? Not with that amount, it may cause failure of the structure, but I cannot imagine it to be catastrphic.

If "they" are planning a spectacular event, it's going to be found now surely. Plus if you are going to use a high explosive, why not use RDX or something of it's ilk that has a higher chance of causing damage?

RatherBeFlying
2nd Nov 2010, 14:49
Now that will bring the Western economies to their knees:}

Mind you it does put a dent in khat shipments.

AQ would get considerably more bang for the buck sending nefarious parcels from inside the Homeland, especially with TSA taking charge of the perimeter of every UPS, DHL and Fedex branch:E

Teddy Robinson
2nd Nov 2010, 15:08
There was talk some time ago of getting hijackers aboard Frieghters, perhaps this was to test security at a basic level .. that is what I would consider doing placing myself in the mindset of these deluded animals.

That said .. f@x news and the like are little more that the whipping boys of political spin ... take your choice... mine is to turn off the TV and think.

brakedwell
2nd Nov 2010, 15:24
And how on Earth would you know the routing? And how would you detonate it?

If you have the technology to make lead azide and PETN, then surely you would use a GPS or barometric device. Not a mobile phone circuit.

I'm still struggling to see the logic in this.

In this particular case they should have known that UPS would be flying the package/s from Dubai to Cologne. Armed with the phone number of the sim card and an air band radio, a member of an AQ cell in Germany could detonate the bomb from a car parked in a strategic position near the airport as the aircraft approached. Not knowing exactly which flight a bomb was on it might have taken several visits before the correct aircraft arrives. Same scenario in the US of A.
This is all conjecture of course.

Ex Cargo Clown
2nd Nov 2010, 15:28
There is obviously a decent reason why they put the word "terror" into the word "terrorism".

Was it ever intended to actually do anything?

CargoMatatu
2nd Nov 2010, 15:34
Exactly! :eek:

Huck
2nd Nov 2010, 15:46
could detonate the bomb from a car parked in a strategic position near the airport as the aircraft approached.

They would have to know when the aircraft was within cell service. So they'd have to know which approach was being flown.

And even a catastrophic failure would likely just make a big scorch mark on the ground. Chances of hitting a structure are not high.

Maybe everyone is overthinking this. They sent them to a synagogue. Maybe they wanted to blow up the synagogue.

brakedwell
2nd Nov 2010, 16:03
Maybe everyone is overthinking this. They sent them to a synagogue. Maybe they wanted to blow up the synagogue.

Maybe, but why send the bombs half way round to world when they could be assembled locally?

PaperTiger
2nd Nov 2010, 16:38
why send the bombs half way round to world when they could be assembled locally?That requires two basic assumptions:
a) there are local terrorists in the US and
b) there is a concerted effort between Yemen and US-based terrorists.

I do believe a lot of people are over-thinking this.
Most likely simply a bunch of nutcases with a half-assed 'plan' with very little chance of success.

Boomerang_Butt
2nd Nov 2010, 16:51
Overthinking it maybe, but possibly in the other sense that the objective was merely

a) to reignite media attention to "the big bad guys hiding in caves"

b) cause disruption & delay (whether to travel of passengers or in this case cargo)

Only a few weeks til Christmas, when millions of extra packages enter the system. Wouldn't it be sad for all those kiddies if because of extra security implemented, ther presents were late and get there in January.

Ok so maybe I'm being a bit sarcastic but you get my point. Death & injury aren't the only desired results of "terrorism".

And I wonder yoo if the only point of this was to further complicate the inconvenience of air travel by a knock-on effect from altered security screening. It was cargo aircraft but look how the TSA now has "new" procedures... in AIRPORTS. :ugh:

Teddy Robinson
2nd Nov 2010, 22:38
In the past couple of weeks we had a senior official at BA suggesting that security measures were inappropiate, Virgin complaining that departure taxes were about to double on certain routes .... and now ? hey guess what ... toner cartridges.

There is a parallel industry to our own, a parasite that has to justify it's existance... join the dots.

Airbubba
2nd Nov 2010, 23:15
...When investigators pulled the Chicago-bound packages off cargo planes in England and the United Arab Emirates Friday, they found the bombs wired to cell phones. The communication cards had been removed and the phones could not receive calls, officials said, making it likely the terrorists intended the alarm or timer functions to detonate the bombs.

"The cell phone probably would have been triggered by the alarm functions and it would have exploded mid-air," said a U.S. official briefed on the investigation, who like other officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the case.

The official also said Tuesday that each bomb was attached to a syringe containing lead azide, a chemical initiator that would have detonated PETN explosives packed into each printer cartridge. Both PETN and a syringe were used in the failed bombing last Christmas of a Detroit-bound airliner.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/11/02/us/politics/AP-Mail-Bombs.html

I see from the URL these mail bombs are in the 'Politics' section of the paper.

These guys have years of experience building bombs with cell phone ringer circuits, looks like the timer function was used to initiate the detonation instead of a phone call. You might not know which plane the bomb is on but you can guess it will be airborne say, 18 hours after initial departure for a next day international delivery or 36 hours for a two day delivery. Especially if you've checked the timing with a dry run in September. Put in the tracking number for your Apple Store iPhone and you get the exact routing and times as FedEx or UPS bring your purchase around the world.

Bombing an airplane with a timer detonator is nothing new, remember the Sikh bombings within an hour of each other in 1985?

Teddy Robinson
2nd Nov 2010, 23:36
In a former life, I also .. legitimately built bombs, I built legitimately, things that look like bombs ... this is .. well .. a news story for whatever aim ... and if the aim was to bring down aircraft rather than stir up the media, we would have been looking at a different picture imho.

601
2nd Nov 2010, 23:48
And how on Earth would you know the routing?

I don't think they care where and when.

And how would you detonate it?

Well my cheapo phone will allow me to set a time an date for the alarm

Its just the fact that they have demonstrated that can get these items on board an aircraft, especially at this time of the year.

Teddy Robinson
2nd Nov 2010, 23:58
proving what to whom ? that people respond to press stories ? placed by whoever puts them there for whatever reason ? ... yes case proven.

BarbiesBoyfriend
3rd Nov 2010, 00:20
For pity's sake!

A UPS Jumbo just crashed after taking off from a ME location.

Is nobody, even on here, putting two and two together?

Teddy Robinson
3rd Nov 2010, 01:20
go read the thread... read the news, look at the precursors for this event .. security industry threatened ? security suddenly needed in additional role... to save us all from what the media is reporting, and therefore fact.

Ex Cargo Clown
3rd Nov 2010, 12:26
Well my cheapo phone will allow me to set a time an date for the alarm


And my cheapo phone will as well, and amazingly enough it will do it without a SIM in it.

If the stories in the media are to be believed, it was an electronic device attached to a SIM, so I'm not believing for one minute that it would be used as a timer, there are far easier ways to make a timer.

hetfield
3rd Nov 2010, 13:18
Suspect parcel for Italy PM catches fire at airport

Suspect parcel for Italy PM catches fire at airport - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101103/wl_afp/greeceattacksitalyaviation)

jcjeant
3rd Nov 2010, 19:38
Hi,

Suspect parcel for Italy PM catches fire at airportMethink Santa is early with gifts this year :)
Commercial pressure :confused:

ChristiaanJ
3rd Nov 2010, 22:21
hetfield, jcjeant,
Doesn't really sound related, or copycat....
Not in the least because the letter bombs as such obviously were functional....
Maybe just having been pre-empted by AQ ruined their scheme.

CJ

Ex Cargo Clown
4th Nov 2010, 00:58
Hetfeld, you have hit on something. It must be far more simple to create a fire than detonate a high explosive with accuracy.

So why stick a very dodgy device onboard a cargo aircraft with an incredibly sensitive detonator when incendiary devices will cause as much havoc, can be externally controlled with no outside intervention, and are easier to make.

lomapaseo
4th Nov 2010, 03:40
with an incredibly sensitive detonator

I don't get this sensitive part. I worked with lead azide detonators and PETN over the years and never had what I would call a sensitive problem. In fact I used to keep several detonators in my desk drawer in the office, no doubt I would now be considered violating health and safety guidelines. Of course I never kept the PETN or RDX anywhere near a detonator but in a bomb shelter of sorts:confused:

Twitcher
4th Nov 2010, 11:47
France's Interior Minister Brice Hortefeux says that one of the two parcel bombs intercepted last week after being sent from Yemen was defused 17 minutes before it was due to go off.

Mr Hortefeux was speaking to France-2 television but did not reveal his source for the information.

The two bombs were sent via air freight to the US but intercepted in Dubai and the UK and defused.

Investigators have focused on a Yemen-based al-Qaeda offshoot

BBC News - Yemen parcel bomb 'was 17 minutes from exploding' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11692942)

Airbubba
4th Nov 2010, 14:21
France's Interior Minister Brice Hortefeux says that one of the two parcel bombs intercepted last week after being sent from Yemen was defused 17 minutes before it was due to go off.

Yep, these explosives experts who say a phone wouldn't be used as a timer might want to backpedal and revise their stories. Plus, as we know from the movies, the bomb always has a big display with a countdown timer, right?;)

Still, the possibility of using a phone inflight to remotely activate a bomb is being reconsidered:

Aircraft bomb finds may spell end for in-flight Wi-Fi - tech - 02 November 2010 - New Scientist (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19665-aircraft-bomb-finds-may-spell-end-for-inflight-wifi.html)

As the story points out, getting the phone to ring for a call or text is enough for the bad guys to start a detonation.

SKS777FLYER
4th Nov 2010, 14:39
Paper Tiger offers this piece :
That requires two basic assumptions:
a) there are local terrorists in the US

You assert, then, there are NO local terrorists in the U.S. ?
Have you ever heard of U.S. Army Major Nidal Hassan ??

Also, don't worry yourself about badguys obtaining the latest, or even outdated MANPADS and sighting in on arrival/departure corridors at any random busy airport. They wouldn't even need any loaded toners aboard target aircraft.

edie
5th Nov 2010, 01:17
UPS/Pilots Sign Agreements on Safety and Security -- LOUISVILLE, Ky., Nov. 4, 2010 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/upspilots-sign-agreements-on-safety-and-security-106730448.html)

UPS/Pilots Sign Agreements on Safety and Security


LOUISVILLE, Ky., Nov. 4, 2010 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- United Parcel Service and the Independent Pilots Association, the collective bargaining unit for its 2,800 pilots, today signed a memorandum of understanding that establishes joint UPS/IPA Safety and Security Task Forces. Both will be made up of six members, three named by each party.
"This agreement reaffirms our common objective of efficiently and effectively operating the UPS airline with safety and security as our twin priorities and guiding principles. We appreciate the company efforts in reaching this agreement," said IPA President Captain Robert Thrush.
The Safety Task Force will address the following issues: Emergency Vision Assurance System (EVAS); full face oxygen masks; comprehensive fire mitigation and suppression systems; checklists procedures for smoke and fire; and the carriage of lithium batteries and other fire/smoke hazards.
"UPS and IPA acknowledge that the air cargo/express package industry faces unique threats in the era of global terrorism. We also recognize the key role our pilots can play in the mitigation and management of these threats both from the flight deck and by working together to improve cargo security and screening," said Captain Thrush.
The Security Task Force will address the following issues: communication and coordination within/between UPS, affected crewmembers, and the IPA; air cargo security procedures; threat procedures; improved access to security directives; perimeter security; and background checks for those who have access to UPS aircraft.
SOURCE Independent Pilots Association
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RELATED LINKS
IPA Press Releases (http://www.ipapilot.org)

Airbubba
21st Nov 2010, 14:38
More details emerge from the alleged perps in an online religious magazine called 'Inspire' (motto on the cover: "...And Inspire The Believers"):

November 20, 2010

Qaeda Branch Aimed for Broad Damage at Low Cost

By SCOTT SHANE

In a detailed account of its failed parcel bomb plot last month, Al Qaeda’s branch in Yemen said late Saturday that the operation cost only $4,200 to mount, was intended to disrupt global air cargo systems and reflected a new strategy of low-cost attacks designed to inflict broad economic damage.

The group, Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, released to militant Web sites a new edition of its English-language magazine, called Inspire, devoted entirely to explaining the technology and tactics in the attack, in which toner cartridges packed with explosives were intercepted in Dubai and Britain.

...“Two Nokia mobiles, $150 each, two HP printers, $300 each, plus shipping, transportation and other miscellaneous expenses add up to a total bill of $4,200. That is all what Operation Hemorrhage cost us,” the magazine said.

It mocked the notion that the plot was a failure, saying it was the work of “less than six brothers” over three months. “This supposedly ‘foiled plot,’ ” the group wrote, “will without a doubt cost America and other Western countries billions of dollars in new security measures. That is what we call leverage.”...


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/21/world/middleeast/21parcel.html

Ex Cargo Clown
22nd Nov 2010, 12:20
I'm confused?

Leverage for what, cheaper mobile phones and toner cartridges? Cheaper airfreight?

This all sounds like BS to me.

sb_sfo
22nd Nov 2010, 14:59
The leverage they speak of is the fact that they can spend a tiny amount of money on a tactic that makes us spend millions chasing our tails. The point now seems to be not killing infidels, but making infidels look silly while they waste money on pointless "preventive measures".

Lonewolf_50
22nd Nov 2010, 15:07
The leverage they speak of is the fact that they can spend a tiny amount of money on a tactic that makes us spend millions chasing our tails. The point now seems to be not killing infidels, but making infidels look silly while they waste money on pointless "preventive measures."

This I think is what Osama bin Laden referred to when he explained, not long after the 9-11 event, how Al Qaeda had exceeded beyond expectations with their attack.

That point has been lost on Government officials in the US since, I think, around 9-12-01. :p

The only upside I have seen to all of this is that the U.S. Coast Guard moved out from under D.o.T. and ended up with an improved funding stream to perform their mission ... which had been sadly underfunded for ages. Sadly, this meant creating DHS, which is a core wrong response to what happened on 9-11.

Oh well, what can one expect from a government? Self licking ice cream cones, mostly.

When can I go back to being able to clip my nails whilst airborne? The belt that I wear around my waist is a far deadlier weapon, in my hands, than nail clippers.