View Full Version : Which Qantas Does Leigh Clifford Work For?

29th Oct 2010, 05:55
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Qantas says it's a great place to work

October 29, 2010 - 4:14PM
Qantas Airways Ltd is a great place to work and there's a high demand for jobs, the airline's chairman Leigh Clifford says. Workers seeking a five per cent pay rise handed out "boarding passes" that pitched their case to shareholders on Friday outside the annual general meeting in Adelaide.
The passes said they were the face of Qantas and that the usual three per cent payrise did not take into account improved productivity, and fell short of private sector average wage increases.
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Inside the meeting, chairman Leigh Clifford told workers he was happy with how the company is managing its staff.
"You've got to recognise that it's an extremely competitive environment internationally," he said.
"Qantas is seeing more and more players competing here, so we have to ensure our cost structure is competitive."
Chief executive Alan Joyce later told journalists the airline was a "great place to work" and offered a whole range of benefits to employees.
Mr Clifford said there was a "pretty high demand for jobs".
"When you talk to employees they are pretty keen on working for Qantas.
"It's a very, very competitive business with challenging margins and we have got to make sure that we have the conditions that will attract employees retain employees."

29th Oct 2010, 06:28
The fact that so many employees feel a sense of pride in working for Qantas in no way reflects upon the performance of senior management. They feel it in spite of what management are doing to the company.

dragon man
29th Oct 2010, 06:42
Clifford is living proof that you dont need a long neck and feathers to be a goose. We never hear about all the people who would like the senior management and board positions for less money. No , its only the workers who are over paid. No wonder the airline is in so much trouble.

29th Oct 2010, 10:45
The Qantas I work doesn't even remotely resemble the Qantas Mr.Clifford works for
I work with 35000 disgruntled people.
Mr. Clifford appears to works with a happy board and an overpaid,compliant naive Irish CEO and 500 happy bonus driven parasites(managers)
Come to think of it they are the same company.
Only the perception is different.....top down cf.bottom up:{:{:{

29th Oct 2010, 14:00
Last time I checked I took redundancy and now work in PNG rather than working for the Qantas Group, employer of choice my arse.

30th Oct 2010, 00:14
According to Clifford we are all happy about the way we are managed and we all feel we are very well paid.
Leigh(Manuel)Clifford is sadly mistaken

30th Oct 2010, 01:48
Clifford and AJ's performance at the AGM, backed by the media statements courtesy of the pollie feret were nothing more than further insults to the employees and crew and showed they have no interest in the average shareholder just the key institutionals, and of course themselves.

Never attribute pride and professionalism of your staff to myopic management self applause.

Club Clifford including AJ and Lady McBeth Bruce all need to grasp a little more foresight and a lot less foreskin.


30th Oct 2010, 02:48
"You've got to recognise that it's an extremely competitive environment internationally," he said.

Apparently he doesnt recognise this fact in terms of his, his board, his CEO, or his executives remuneration packages. They are still PIGS in the trough. When is enough going to be enough? This human filth deserves to learn a bit about life. Clearly he has NO idea.

stubby jumbo
30th Oct 2010, 03:37
The Chairman was on one of our flights about 6 weeks ago coming back from LAX.
Calling him a Goose is an injustice to our fine feathered friends:hmm:

He swaggered on board ,turned left and plonked himself in 2K and thats where he stayed for the entire trip. Not once did he get up to converse with the crew or CSM .....so for him to say: ""When you talk to employees they are pretty keen on working for Qantas."
The only talking to employees this clown muttered was... "more champagne, more Cab Sav, more Dessert Wine" etc etc.
When are we going to get "management" that actually VALUE their staff or is that just a naive ,utopian model that no company will ever get !!!
After putting up with the "reign of terror" from Darth and his band of marauding thieves -I stupidly thought ...."things have got to get better now".
Nope :ugh: Wrong .
This article is utterly offensive to all hardworking QANTAS GROUP staff.
The old saying "What you sow....you shall reap ".......well the seeds of doom and gloom were sown 10 years ago.
Qantas is now reaping the harvest of discontent, disengagement,dissatisfaction and disdain:ouch:

Ace Wasabe
30th Oct 2010, 04:27
I have given up waiting for a CEO or senior management to engage the workforce.
These people(The Visitors) have no loyalty to Qantas.They are here to rip as much out of the place before they leave.
Clifford is a perfect example.A man in his twilight years who has been a given a comfy job as chairman of na airline board.Substantial benefits and a healthy remuneration.All this without any real responsiblity.All he has to do is keep the Irishman on a tight leash and bamboozle the board with arrogant bluster.He is person whose only airline experience is putting his bum in a P/C seat
I just keep my head down,tell my manager everything is wonderful and then go home.
1850 days to go

30th Oct 2010, 06:24
About 2 weeks before me you lucky bugger depending on how much my kids cost me from now:sad:

Of course he would say it is a great place to work.It always looks good from the top and to be frank who is going to tell the chairman the place sucks?
There are many worse places to earn a living I am sure but it is not the 1st choice either.If not for staff travel many many would not bother.Particularly those on lower incomes who could not afford to travel otherwise.

30th Oct 2010, 06:30
I just keep my head down,tell my manager everything is wonderful and then go home.

Well, I, and a lot of others, have a lot more that 1850 days to go (hopefully) and that's not helping much.

30th Oct 2010, 06:35
I just keep my head down,tell my manager everything is wonderful and then go home

Monorail, sadly where I am you talk until you are blue in the face about how to make things work better.Waste of time , it never gets past the first vested interest or costs too much.
As awful as the above [in blue] sounds it is a common attitude now.

Ken Borough
30th Oct 2010, 07:35
At the risk of incurring the unending wrath of the malcontents and discontents (:ugh::ugh:), I suggest that anyone who is unhappy working at Qantas get to hell out of the place by resigning and securing employment at a workplace that offers Ts&Cs more akin to their liking and that will match their vast array of undoubted talents.

No one is required, forced, compelled, coerced, conscripted etc to work at Qantas. Either move on or do what most do: enjoy working for one of the best employers in the country. Almost all staff, including Cabin Crew, who I regularly see are doing just that.

30th Oct 2010, 08:19
Many people stay at QF and tolerate the visitors because of the commraderie that exists amongst the employees...not the management...but the employees.The real people who make Qantas what it was and what it is.Qantas should be the best airline in the world ...but it ain't...and thats purely down to cost cutting.You want to be premium you need to spend money on the product.Decrewing and providing two scoops only of potato for P/C customers just doesnt cut it.
I stay because I changed my mindset.Management exist only to entertain employees ......and in that they are successful.I cant change anything or improve anything because I am prevented from doing so.So like many others I have given up.I have a few laughs do my job well and go home.I certainly dont care about the place like I used to.Having said that I do care enormously for my colleagues and the customers.
Qantas runs on the enormous pool of goodwill of its employees.
We are not disengaged but rather managment are disengaged from us
Pity...but thats the way it is.Once you accept this AJ Clifford and all the other snouts cease to be important

30th Oct 2010, 08:55
He was out arseholed by Clifford

30th Oct 2010, 21:07

The Chairman was on one of our flights about 6 weeks ago coming back from LAX.
Calling him a Goose is an injustice to our fine feathered friends

He swaggered on board ,turned left and plonked himself in 2K and thats where he stayed for the entire trip. Not once did he get up to converse with the crew or CSM .....so for him to say: ""When you talk to employees they are pretty keen on working for Qantas."

Clifford appears to be another narcissist like Dixon is. As I've said before, once a few of them get into an organisation, they push good people out and attract more narcissists into the organisation.

The mechanism is very simple. Narcissists like their arses licked regularly by their employees. The only ones who will do that are other narcissists, hence they are the ones that get hired and promoted.

The old British joke about Naval recruitment is not a joke to a narcissist - when the officer candidate was asked who were the Three greatest British naval heroes he replied "Nelson, Drake, and, what did you say your name was Sir?"

30th Oct 2010, 22:54
Leigh I'll have another one Clifford. When next you fly, ask the flight attendants if they've had him on board, gives a good insight into the man.
How did we end up with him? Where is his airline knowledge?
About time we poached Fyfe from Air NZ and got this outfit back on the rails.

31st Oct 2010, 00:02
From ace wasabe...I just keep my head down,tell my manager everything is wonderful and then go home

From ken borough....most do: enjoy working for one of the best employers in the country. Almost all staff, including Cabin Crew, who I regularly see are doing just that.

So is Ken ace's boss? :}

You can see the disconnect.Many are probably happy to work there and many just say everything is wonderful.
How would ken or any other manager know the difference?

Ace Wasabe
31st Oct 2010, 03:18
Early on I used to highlight problems and provide solutions.I was taken aside and informed that I was negative and definitely not on the same page as management.
Monitoring increased and KPI reviews extended into four hours duration.
I can do without the stress.Now I just keep quiet.
The bullying by management allows them to tell their superiors that everything is wonderful,which it isn't.No one dares speak out for fear of consequences

31st Oct 2010, 03:20
hi ken,
that would not work well with QF.
in cabin crew ranks with QCCA and Jet* crew low wages and eventual disengagement would probably see a turnover greater than 50% each year. just not workable from the company point of view, some manager would lose their bonus due to the blowout in the training budget.
i don't know who my manager is, i don't care.
less than 7000 days to go. i hope.

31st Oct 2010, 06:11
Clifford is just another Dixon only taller.
He has the same sense of entitlement and has even more contempt for subordinates.As a staff member you may as well be an ant in his presence.
Dont hold your breath waitng for staff engagemnt to occur.If Clifford had seen the last Pulse survey he would know things are not rosy.From what he said at the AGM he either hasnt seen them or has treated them with contempt.
Why do they even have these surveys if they are not going to act on them ?
I will not be completing any more surveys if nothing is going to come of them

31st Oct 2010, 09:11
Like other posters I was keen and would do whatever was asked of me.Those days are over.Sick leave is used to deal with stress.Company transport is used wherever possible.Drycleaning allowance is always maxed out.It never used to be this way but I get no recognition and lots of intimidation.So I do as management does: get in for my chop.Resistance is futile

31st Oct 2010, 09:41

Qantas works for Leigh Clifford.

31st Oct 2010, 17:24
Things cant be too bad at QF cause everyone is still going to work and there are people lined up to have a crack at working there.

The fact is that it doesn't matter if you work for a big company like QF or a small family owned company, there is always some fat cat boss that wants to bleed the staff dry and get the absoloute most out of them for every cent they pay you and they also want to give the customers the absoloute minimum they will tolerate to come back and use/buy the product on offer. I have worked in both scenarios and I have seen it happen.

I think some people posting on here about how bad things are at QF need to take a holiday and either relax and get over it or maybe even spend a couple of weeks working for someone else to realise that things are screwed no matter who you work for.

I understand that if all you have ever done is worked for QF and you have watched the place go south due to management greed and incompetence, that it a can be very upsetting, however you need to come back to reality and realise that it is no different anywhere else so make the most of what you have and save your energy for something else cause it isnt going to change no matter how much you and many others wish it would.

It is however nice to see that people do care enough about the company to be passionate enough to get the shits about the way management ar running the place down.

31st Oct 2010, 20:53
Spoke to my neighbour yesterday about this topic and he said that the propblem he sees is the 'new management' the young ones with the big ego's who know everything (laugh) and have a great sense of entitlement.

He said that whilst it doesn't effect him as he has over 25 years of service now, he hates these new 'managers' who have the new management level staff travel priority when plenty of them don't even see out 5 years.

He asked me did I have any LSL trips remaining when I left QF and raised a very valid point and that was, why is it that when you are made redundant and have unused LSL trips, the associated priority goes to the bottom of the list when you have earned that entitlement. As he said, these young blow ins receive highter priority than say someone who was made redundant and put in for say 20 years of service. That certainly sounds very wrong to me and no doubt that was bought in by the likes of Dixon.

As he said, people who have been around for a while hate what the 'new management' are doing.

Is Qantas a good place to work? well it's only a survey but ! Great Place to Work® Institute (http://www.greatplacetowork.com.au/best/list-au.htm)

Do people want to work for Qantas? yet another survey shows:
"The survey of over 2,900 workers places Google in the top spot, with Virgin coming in second. Apple took fourth place, followed by Qantas, The Walt Disney Company, OMD, Sydney Water, Getaway and Coca-Cola." Survey reveals 73% of workers want to work somewhere else - Business news, business advice and information for Australian SMEs | SmartCompany (http://www.smartcompany.com.au/managing-people/2010-10-29-survey-reveals-73-of-workers-want-to-work-somewhere-else.html)

31st Oct 2010, 21:43
Wanting to work for Qantas and Working for Qantas represent two differing realities.
Airlines have always had a certain allure.Thats why there are always large numbers of potential recruits.The allure has nothing to do with Qantas.It just happens to be an airline
Two years ago a mate spoke to me about his son wanting to become a flight attendant.This kid like so many was starry eyed.I tried to talk him out of it.He would not be persuaded.Any way he got the job and lasted six months.Poor salary,sickness, fatigue and a broken romance finished it for him.His wage was so poor he couldnt meet his rent.He was home less than 7 days a month and could hardly drag himself out of bed when he was home.
The are two Qantas'.The Qantas before Dixon and the one after.The Qantas prior to Dixon was a family where everyone helped each other achieve the goal of being an excellent airline.The airline today is a fragmented mess with management pulling one way and staff another.I have come to the realization that it will never be fixed because management can't see that its broken.Employees have given up telling them that it is.
Whilever this situation exists Qantas will decline and will never be any better than an also ran outfit...if its not there already

31st Oct 2010, 23:31
I absolutely agree with the unfairness of accrued LSL trips having retired onload priority rather than the priority when the trip was earnt.
The problem of new hire lower management having higher priority than retirees is not new. The newest employee entitled to staff travel has always had a higher priority than the longest serving retiree. Unfair, but been around forever.

1st Nov 2010, 02:21
Carried Clifford awhile ago.Unpleasant surly fellow who is obviously enjoying the benefits of being the chairman of an airline.
As far as staff travel is concerned forget it.A thirty year Captain got bumped by an IT newbie who had been with the company for 18 months.Apparently these new guys are employed on lower wages but are compensated by a higher stafftravel category.
Like other posters I dont give a toss but as has been pointed out most corporations are the same.
The glamour and benefits that outsiders see have long since disappeared.Like many i have enjoyed the good times and now simply tolerate the bad.
I thought Clifford and Joyce may provide a new level of staff engagement.After having met Clifford I realize that my hope was misplaced

1st Nov 2010, 02:22
This doesn't help as well:
A punt on property offers rich rewards (http://www.smh.com.au/business/a-punt-on-property-offers-rich-rewards-20101031-178ze.html)
"Following a strong ''no'' vote at last year's meeting, there was resounding support (about 99 per cent) for both Joyce's incentive plan and the remuneration report at Friday's meeting."

1st Nov 2010, 02:25
even blind freddy can see from the above posts that the disengagment by staff would seem to be a problem caused by management. surely the managers responsible for this should be the people resigning/sacked and replaced with managers that can engage the staff and still be excellent managers.
then again maybe they don't exist, QF don't want them or can't afford them.
still waiting for the last pulse survey results to be published. maybe they couldn't find a pulse!!

watch your6
1st Nov 2010, 04:24
Qantas management do not,repeat do not,give a rats rissole about engagement or morale.They do these surveys just so they can say they have done them.Leigh Clifford is a bigger snouter than Dixon could ever be.Twenty Seven years of running Rio Tinto has taught him a lot about entitlement and the place of the little people(of which Joyce is one)
Thank you linesmen,thank you ball boys game over for Qantas and its staff

1st Nov 2010, 07:28
A lot of people in Qantas have never worked anywhere else, and so they always think they are getting a raw deal.
I agree that Clifford is just a new version of excrement, just when we thought the legacy of darth had ended along comes this idiot.
Have they not yet learned that if you treat your staff like crap, they in turn treat the companies customers like crap.
At least AJ has realised this very point and did seem to want to do something about it,but his new @rsehole sidekick is just kicking everyone on the guts again.

But back to my point at the beginning, the people who have never experienced anywhere else need to pull their heads out of the sand and look around, I agree QF is not the same company it used to be, but it still has its good points. And long after clifford the @rsehole has left we will still be here doing what we love to do.
If it is a bad as many staff say it is, move along because it is true that there are still more people who would love a chance to work at QF.

Just remember that the grass isn't always greener at Virgin or Emirates, QF may suck to you but I know DJ sucks even more

1st Nov 2010, 08:29
Workers seeking a five per cent pay rise handed out "boarding passes" that pitched their case to shareholders on Friday outside the annual general meeting in Adelaide.

Keep it up im sure the shareholders' hearts bled given their shares are worth less than a decade ago and zero dividends last 2 years. :D

1st Nov 2010, 20:07
It's not so easy to "get another job" if your only skills are maintenance of high bypass turbojets or their components.

1st Nov 2010, 23:07
This term is now a management cliche.
Many stay in hope that the place will change or to simply to see off the arsehole who manages them.
Its always interesting to run into a former QF manager...they want to be your best mate...Guess what.....?they are always surprised when they find out that they were hated.......its our moral duty to point that out to them.
Jaimie Sinclair
Greg Balcombe
Dave Hinds have all been acquainted with the truth

2nd Nov 2010, 00:17
Just remember that the grass isn't always greener at Virgin or Emirates, QF may suck to you but I know DJ sucks even more

That's pretty subjective bootstrap. Have you worked for both airlines?

Gas Bags
2nd Nov 2010, 00:35
It doesn't matter where you work, be it QF, JQ, DJ, EK, SQ, 3K, etc, there will be negatives and positives.

The hardest part of any longer term employment is to remain focused on the positives as opposed to the negatives.

I used to work at Ansett and recall when the AANZES inroads were underway and the negativity that came with it and went a long way to lowering morale. Not much fun!

Since those days if I start to feel I am being drawn into politics or start to focus too much on the negatives of whichever workplace I am at, I resign.

Health is far too important to spend your life immersed in negativity.

I am in no way suggesting that people at QF should resign if they are unhappy as that clearly does not suit the vast majority of people, however I am advocating the ideal of positive focusing.

It does work and the results will benefit you.


dragon man
2nd Nov 2010, 01:03
A good post Gas Bags. However despite the many good points about still working at Qantas because of managment you tend to do your job and go home. As much as i hate to say it you become disengaged and therefore the company suffers from many staff who could provide great feedback and ideas to make it a better airline not providing that input. So, we end up in a spiral dive until new management can come in and put an end to it. I hate to say it but thats no where in sight at the moment.

2nd Nov 2010, 09:09
Dragon, "New Management" won't come in, not unless the company destroys itself and is sold to new owners with a realistic outlook.

Narcissists perpetuate themselves. Qantas will not recover unless and until they are removed, root, stem and branch, and the management and human resources tools for that removal process do not even exist today, and may never exist.

To put it another way, I know of no organisation that has recovered from an infestation of narcissists in management without a near (corporate) death experience.

I have an acquaintance who has been a Director of one of the Big Four banks for some years. I asked her what her strategic imperatives were; "My job is to make sure that the people who work for me can succeed at what they are doing" was the reply. You will not find that attitude at Qantas, in my opinion.

This fits with the Sunfish inverted management triangle, where the CEO is on the bottom, supporting the entire edifice. This is a concept completely at variance with the Dixon/Clifford theory that the Board makes the world go around.

The only thing I venerate about Gough Whitlam was his comment that election to the Board of Qantas was the closest thing in Australia to membership of the House of Lords.

2nd Nov 2010, 09:47
Well Clifford certainly sees himself as King and if the rumours are true he is ably assisted by a 165cm Queen
Occasionally you come across someone in management who appears to have been employed by mistake.ie normal.Unfortunately they dont last long and the Status Quo again prevails.
Before the rats are cleared out it will require a catastrophe and loss of life.
I detest the rats but I dont want loss of life.
Like so many QF employees I am stuck and so will have to accept that though the reality at QF is unacceptable its never going to change.I will have left before Qantas becomes a carcass.