Rumour: Sunstate Engineers suspended over aircraft sabotage?

[The Kelpie]

As for CASA the toothless tigers - once again probably just trying to do things on the cheap. Pass the buck to the airlines (self regulate), then when it turns into a smoking hole in the ground come in all guns blazing - good media.

I think that politically there are too many questions about the safety of Australian aviation in the public domain at the moment. I believe there is a genuine concern about public perception which may undermine public confidence. I wonder whether this view has been helped along by the airlines??

More to follow

[Arnold E]

I believe there is a genuine concern about public perception which may undermine public confidence. I wonder whether this view has been helped along by the airlines??

Can someone please explain all this to me, I confess, I dont understand. Where the hell are we going, Honestly, I dont understand, Please explain, and I am not trying to be stupid, although I might be.:confused::confused::confused:

[neville_nobody]

Sunstate are in the poo for this but for some reason they are still operating.

At the end of the day this is the problem. CASA don't have the guts to pull the AOC of a major player. If Sunstate was some GA operator in the bush somewhere CASA would have cancelled their AOC years ago. Yet when it comes to QF they are to scared and I suspect QF probably knows this. I always thought that if you got a RCA and didn't comply that was the end of your AOC,

[LAME2]

"Yet when it comes to QF they are to scared

It is not rocket science guys. Been known by those in the industry for years. The big Q and CASA are "the brotherhood", big Enos and little Enos, whatever name you like. One does not do anything without the approval of the other. Publicly, little Enos has the stick. Behind closed doors big Enos wields the power and has the authority. This arrangement is too important for both parties and will never be broken.

[mightyauster]

Without the shift penalties the QLink wages for a fully licensed engineer is crap $61k http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wibble.gif
It would seem the current Gov couldn't give a damn. Is there any difference between the labour ( supposed to be for the worker) and the brotherhood of old boys looking after their mates ( shaft the worker).
Fair work aust is a good example of the pathetic attempt to right a wrong, take out 2 chapters to appease the unions - get the support but leave everything else.

I think you will find that this is the GA award that I have been railing about elsewhere on this forum. What happened to the Airline award? Not that the GA guys amongst us should put up with the sick joke that is the GA award.:yuk:
Anyway, "Fair Work Australia" :yuk::yuk: will tell you it's legal and if you don't like it, find a job elsewhere. It's ok for those SOB's - if you don't have the ability to suddenly up stumps and move, WTF do you do?
As far as I can see, the Labour gubmint is only interested in looking after their construction, car and maritime industry mates and F&*$ everyone else!:* Not that the other mob were much better...

[Arnold E]

Not that the other mob were much better...agreed

As far as I can see, the Labour gubmint is only interested in looking after their construction, car and maritime industry mates and F&*$ everyone elsePlease explain to me how you reckon they look after those mentioned. Tell me where the car industry is today and ask Ark Tribe how well he was looked after.:ugh:

[MR WOBBLES]

Happy new year brothers just waiting for our christmas bonus so we can put it towards your fund
:Dnot tax deductable for the company but who gives a rats
MR Wobbles

[Bigdog01]

There in lies the problem the legal watch dog in bed with the enemy.
It will only be resolved once the CASA boss becomes a eunuch and never has to go to bed with anybody !!!!!!!!!
Until then this is our system and bugger the LAME.

[airsupport]

There in lies the problem the legal watch dog in bed with the enemy.
It will only be resolved once the CASA boss becomes a eunuch and never has to go to bed with anybody !!!!!!!!!
Until then this is our system and bugger the LAME.

The major Companies, certainly Ansett that I know of and I would assume Qantas, have always had let's say a close relationship with CASA, which I must admit I have even benefited from. ;)

However this seems to be very different, safety can NOT, or should NOT, be ignored. :mad:

[division1]

Did the alaea recently enthrall the new head of casa with the current practices, and his responses appeared appeasing to the lames. i would give casa some more time to correctly evaluate what's going on there.
Sounds like some serious, long overdue butt kicking is about to occur.
What was the dispute over again? full backpay instead of 1/2 and get
rid of proposed training bonds??. was there anything else??? :ugh:
Totally rediculous situation, and an ongoing human factors nightmare for the workers to contend with.

[BOBO THE CLOWN 23]

Any word on whats going on with the sunstate engineers? Did they sack the 6 engineers or are they back at work?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Read the thread bloke. I answered the question only last year (yesterday).

[Isamu Pahoa]

With a name like that you could be QLink manangement. Can you enlighten us with any rumours/facts.

[airsupport]

Steve,

No further news yet?

On the Industrial problems?

Or the Safety problems?

Thank you. :ok:

[Bigdog01]

Happy new Year to all,
Rumour update :
1. Cleanering and catering supplier approached to provide turnaround capability in Brisbane.
2. Cockpit door latches to go fully electronic - still nothing wrong with the old ones ! WTF :ugh:
3. Popsicle 6 still on sabbatical - 8 weeks full pay and counting.
4. Remainder still trying to operate with 1/3 less LAME's :ouch:

[LAME2]

Thanks for the update. My thoughts are with them. Must be terribly stressful working under such conditions.

[DasTrash]

2. Cockpit door latches to go fully electronic - still nothing wrong with the old ones ! WTF :ugh:

Ask the half dozen or so guys who have gone compo with back injuries.

[harrowing]

One of the doors could be opened in about three seconds without a paddle pop stick. It was noticeably less secure than the others.

[1746]

Guys, I feel for you and admire the way you have handled this ordeal.
I offer my support for you and your families in these dark hours.
The clowns that have perpetrated this drama must be bought to justice!
I trust every thoughtful LAME and aviation professional alike offers more than moral support to you and yours.
It's easy to say but stay strong and all power to you and your families.

[Bigdog01]

Just a follow up on the previous post. I believe that since the fight started 2 Lame's retired and to date 5 (3 LAME's & 2 AME's) resigned. Including the Popsicle 6, they are operating now operating with 13 less people. HOW ?
Unofficial - one more to go at end of Jan - 14 people down out of 32.

This group of management are directly trying to shut it down, "since the dispute you the engineer's work practices have changed". Of course it's changed they don't have the people to do the work - by company design.

In Response to LAME 2 - CASA have done right by me in the past also. But today I feel they do not have the manpower or the resources to take on any of the big player's. When the media gets involved they find time but usually too late.

If FED SEC has got CASA boss onside then this hopefully will be a step in right direction - however I doubt whether he will get involved in the fight, just to sit on sidelines ensuring procedures followed.

[Going Nowhere]

Rumour has it management are more than happy to have the BNE maintenance shut down. :ugh:

[Bigdog01]

Rumour has it management are more than happy to have the BNE maintenance shut down. :ugh:

pitiful really - what sort of manager allows this to happen to his department ?
The 80 odd turnarounds per day. Sub contractor maintenance.
It is totally disgraceful behavior perpetrated by incompetents.

[Arnold E]

Ok, quiet for a while, What are you going to do about it???????

[LAME2]

What are you going to do about it???????

Support Steve P and the ALAEA staff as they direct the operation.

Place spare money into the fighting fund.

What about you Arnold?

[Arnold E]

Place spare money into the fighting fund.

Have done that. Just asking a question, that's all

[gobbledock]

Rumour has it management are more than happy to have the BNE maintenance shut down. :ugh:
pitiful really - what sort of manager allows this to happen to his department ?
The 80 odd turnarounds per day. Sub contractor maintenance.
It is totally disgraceful behavior perpetrated by incompetents.

Todays modern manager described perfectly above! Nil concept or understanding of reality, prioritises cost cutting over safety, nil ethics, nil ability to think laterally or think long term, minimal professional management skills or experience, enjoys a Corona at his Executive's chalet on the weekend while sitting by the pool absorbing from the boss words of wisdom, grandeur, depth and alleged knowledge and then absorbing other fluids in his quest to become the next ' executive big player' in the system. Fools.....

[Arnold E]

Todays modern manager described perfectly above!

Perhaps a modern manager would like to explain where they are comming from??

[gobbledock]

Perhaps a modern manager would like to explain where they are comming from??
Sorry Arnie, they can't. They only understand spreadsheets and dollar symbols. Very limited individuals.

[GLBS]

To be fair The Modern Manager is always ready to listen to your new EBA Proposal.
As long as it's less dollars than their original withdrawn proposal.
Doesn't involve back pay of wages,fines, Super or any other increase in conditions that the Engineers might dream up. Quite simple really.
You people are obviously taking this whole thing to personally.

Good luck with your next round of pay dockings. :ouch:

[gobbledock]

GLBS, Thank you for your timely and inspiring first post. Excellent work.

I am warmed by your positive managerial input and your willingness to speak out on behalf of the ‘modern manager’.
Today's 'parcus procurator' in aviation normally comes with an accounting degree, minimal life experience, no people skills and a determination to become rich and powerful at the expense of morality and safety. I suspect GLBS that you feel right at home among your management fraternity in this context.

The modern manager’s salary is excessive, unrealistic and most of all embedded with financial incentives to rape and pillage his subordinates. This modern managers salary will no longer comprise large fat bonuses for all to scrutinize but instead his salary will be extremely healthy and his bonuses built into the salary in the form of ‘sign on fees’, ‘retention payments’, ‘indexed performance top up’ and other swanky terminology. Again, GLBS I salute your ‘coming out’.

The modern manager in aviation will also likely have experience from a consulting firm in the private sector, be related by blood to the internal hierarchy within the organization and be an accomplished ‘rimmer’. Once more I commend you GLBS for having obtained these necessary elements as you have certainly sucked hard for them.

Finally to all my management friends I wish you all the best as you daily monitor your excel spreadsheets while wearing your silk ties, sip Earl Gray from bone china cups, nod and wink at each other as you recline on your Italian leather chairs while perched around a large oval mahogany table and as you ‘oil up’ in preparation for your next round of ‘nude twister’.

Game on……….

[breakfastburrito]

Here's a link that gives you an insight into why were are in the **** we are in, power elites sole expertise being privileged [zerohedge] (http://www.zerohedge.com/article/guest-post-no-wonder-were-failing-our-power-elites-sole-expertise-being-privileged).

[Sunfish]

Gobbledock:

Finally to all my management friends I wish you all the best as you daily monitor your excel spreadsheets while wearing your silk ties, sip Earl Gray from bone china cups, nod and wink at each other as you recline on your Italian leather chairs while perched around a large oval mahogany table and as you ‘oil up’ in preparation for your next round of ‘nude twister’.


Gobbler, you are talking about consultants, not managers.

[blackhand]

Respect to the men maintaining the RPT fleet.

I haven't been involved at your part of the aviation industry so can but imagine what working under the conditions described in this thread would be like.

The top guns in helicopter maintenance would have rolled their swag, packed the toolbox and be at their next engagement before the ink had dried on their resignation.
You blokes don't have this luxury, and have to see the issue out to the (bitter) end.

I am indeed perplexed by the tact taken by your Chief Engineer, this is the man supposed to stand between you and management, enforce the regulations and ensure safety of the flying public. He has not done all of these all the time.



Cheers
BH

[Bigdog01]

Hey Blackhand,
Chief engineer what chief engineer, had one, saw what was about to happen and went fishing. Previous position filled by morons - couldn't or didn't want to change definitely no spine or balls to stand up. Current management obviously JELLYFISH right or wrong are going to allow this disgraceful occurrence and not for the first time.

Some where in the back corner of the bookshelf - The bible " Management for Dummies" written by Dummies.

[gobbledock]

Gobbler, you are talking about consultants, not managers.
Sunfish, with all due respect I was talking about 'modern managers'. Consultants certainly still fit the forementioned criteria, and yesteryear's manager is different to todays version.
Cheers

[27/09]

I think GLBS mibght be taking the piss out of the "Modern manager"

[Gas Bags]

27/09 Correct

[GLBS]

Dear gobbledock,
The behaviour that you describe in your second last paragraph may be limited to the modern manager in Alabama. Here in OZ the engineers at Qantaslink are in a period of protected industrial action, but you will find a handful of engineers lining their pockets with overtime and endearing themselves to the modern manager, in other ways.
I can't say I've seen engineers sip Earl Gray from a bone china cup. Only a Lipton tea bag and the plastic mug. Maybe thats the difference between the two. :uhoh:

[gobbledock]

I think GLBS mibght be taking the piss out of the "Modern manager"
Nah, surely not ????

Dear Gobble Dock,
the behaviour that you describe in your second last paragraph my be limited to the mordern manager in Alabama.
Not here in Alabama. We have more pressing issues to contend with such as the mosquita's, gator's and inter breedin. We even drink our coffee from cow skulls !

[Isamu Pahoa]

The main issue with the local managers at Sunnies is that there is none. The current batch of so called managers who mind you have been in there positions for an eternity are there by default. If Sunnies had not been aligned with Qantas for the early days they would not have survived. That situation has given some people with very limited ability the opportunity to benifit from circumstance.
These very average AME's (now managers) are now years later making descissions which have an extremely detrimental effect on the quality of aircraft maintenance. They are hell bent on keeping there noses clean in the eyes of their managers by allowing themselves to be used as a cost cutting mechanism. They niether have the ability, nor the desire to put pressure on their managers by highlighting flaws or shortcomings in their systems. They have provided the fuel for this dispute by keeping their heads in the sand, and shouting down anyone who stands up agaist them.
This company has been and continues to be run as a dictatorship. The only people who are willing to comply with this type of management style are people under threat or people who believe they have no choice (i.e. related??).
The one saving grace is that all dictatorships collapse when the mob rises. I hope they continue to rise because they deserve better then they are getting at the moment.

[L Riding hood]

I heard that a LAME and on a different occasion a AME they both witness a manager using a screwdriver to pry open the cockpit door locks to try and open it and while doing this damaged the lock and past the blame onto the engineers for willingly damaging the a/c. Can anyone confirm this? And if this is the case it is truly disgraceful and he should be under investigation for a/c sabotage. How dose a half-bred idiot like this get into a management position

[Bigdog01]

L Riding hood
Do you really want people like this fixing aircraft 100% of the time.:mad: NO.
People of this ability are usually weeded out early in the piece at other organisations - but they are promoted to astronomical heights in this case as they do - anything, usually do not use parts ( cheaper), don't argue because they don't know and follow orders from above right or wrong once again because they don't have a clue.
Ever since the regional s were likened to buses with wings, then what do you expect eventually the bus mechanics would take over :{

[old_mate]

Just read this whole thread, 61k for a LAME on a RPT aircraft is horrendous, AND then the airline offers annual wage increases less than CPI, no backpay for new EA etc etc. Good thing I left mainline flying rat as soon as I got my trade cert a few years back, even then as a fresh faced AME i knew the industry would soon.

Sad to think these days i cruise around in a company ute on far better dollars than these blokes and I don't have any aircraft or part thereof to certify. No lives to worry about except my own. I do find it amusing the ALAEA can admit noone can afford a walkout yet I have been involved in two spontaneous walkouts under the ETU within the last 12 months and all i copped was the docking of half day's pay and the good feeling of showing up to work the next day with issue's we walked out over resolved. It's a different world when your employer values you and the work you do, union member or not.

Oh and Bigdog01 you can refer to me as Littledog i suppose :)

[Gas Bags]

Little Dog,

A truer word has not been spoken..........

[Bigdog01]

The bus drivers are being picked on too. The older more experienced drivers are being put through unrealistic scenarios under the training guise.All drivers doing this but the XBOX generation like this ****, the older guys wouldn't get into this situation to start with.

For example :
Short field take off - full load - 6 to 7 metre visibility.
Question - when would this happen.
Will the on time departure rule ever ever put a pilot into this scenario - if it did how badly would this break company safety policy - let alone regulatory policies.
Having been around aircraft from in my teens, I realise throwing curly ones at pilots in a sim can achieve more than real flying BUT to fail them on these absurd scenario's is a bit harsh. Hence I believe 5 senior guys have had enough - don't need this **** !!!!!
What would be next - wing fell off - failed because you couldn't land and caused insurance claim - bad press.

Hey old-mate is it too late to change jobs ?

[Sunfish]

The post above gives me the distinct impression that experience in any function is no longer a desirable requirement for any position in the Qantas group.

[GLBS]

yep if the rats on the tail the employee will F.... Do as he is told

[Isamu Pahoa]

If only the idiodic managers within the Red tail brigade would just realise that it is and always has been the first thing on the Lame's mind to keep the aircraft safe. When the Lame's start just doing as they are told, we are on a seriously steep descent into catastrophe.

The managers are just looking after there own interests. The Lame is looking after the interests of the flying public. When the big head Q realises that, they will stop fighting them and reap the benifits of a proactive workforce. :ugh:

And now I read $140+ Million Qantas agrees to pay in Law suits involved in inethical activeties over the past 4 years. What a pack of idiots. They will then spend millions of dollars to not let 30 blokes in Brisbane have a $500/year pay rise. They (managers) have made some descissions with the excuse of 'protecting the busines'. They removed the Lame's/ame's from there productive shift to an unproductive one. They shifted the checks to be done at a third party facility (costs a packet/poor quality). So who is protecting the business from these fools??:ugh:

[GLBS]

There goes that red safety card again! What about the shareholders?

[L Riding hood]

I don’t believe that Qantas deserve to have a slogan ‘’the spirit of Australia ‘’ the last time I cheeked it didn’t stand for ripping of thousands of people and disciplining engineers and pilots for doing what’s right. They are quite happy to be Sneaky bugger and go out of their way to be deceitful. Numerous times this so called spirit of Australia has been caught out http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/shiner.gif
I have absolutely no faith in any manager of this company they should watch how they treat there employees! If skywest and the virgin venture get Q400 wont that be interesting an instant work force ready to go !!!:D

[Bigdog01]

The rat on the tail should be a clue - white (management) surrounded by a sea of blood ( the worker). At present I don't think you will find a more unanimous group every body - pilot's, cabin crew, baggies, engineer's and counter staff all think senior Q manager's self centred egotists. Sitting back collecting bonus's whilst treating staff with contempt, the bigger the contempt the larger the bonus.:=
Old mate.
After having blossomed from Q apprentice ranks to full grown AME and to leave after the pay went up. I believe you started another apprenticeship as a second year ( prior learning) on nearly double the rate of pay as a Q AME. How rude, maybe your skills were better appreciated outside the aviation industry.:ok:

We have recently seen walk outs by Qld nurses due the pay debarkle, construction workers on sites for safety reasons - have the Fairwork Aust laws been enforced - NO. Probably due to the fact that if they did the workers would remember the management R Soles and not put the effort in after it was all sorted. However the self important at Q have harassed and used the full powers available to them on 30 engineer's at probably the most profitable section of Q. Why ? do they not think the engineer's won't remember the treatment and go back to giving them undying loyalty as before. Sorry I forgot they only have contempt for the staff, just a number on the exel spreadsheet that may lower the profit, if we actually treat them with respect and value their input.
It seems apparent that the people who actually do the work on aircraft don't know how to maintain them - Qlink manager "maybe we over-maintained the aircraft previously" Dick Head it was called preventative maintenance this to ensure aircraft remained serv longer, actually get from one check to the next without frequent hangar visits and disrupting revenue flights.That my friend will cause the graph to go down, however not your fault as you pushed the graph up falsely by not buying spares and maintaining wage growth below CPI whilst increasing fares to align with CPI.

[Sunfish]

The problem Bigdog, is that very few Qantas Managers actually have their head on the block over safety.

At worst, if an international flight goes in and the brand tanks, they seek a new job. After all, it wasn't their fault was it?

As for the managers in safety sensitive positions;

1) I want a salary that reflects the risk I run if an aircraft goes in.

2) I want a bonus that rewards me for every year that I can deliver lower costs.

3) If an aircraft goes in, I want to be able to walk away with money intact.


This is what I faced at Exxon: pay lip service to the written rules and hope like hell nothing happens on my watch.

If nothing happens, I'm promoted. get a major salary increase, and some other poor sap is offered the same Faustian bargain I was offered.

The process is repeated throughout your career. If nothing happens , you make a great deal of money. If something does happen, you take a bullet for your employer. Watch what happens to the BP and Haliburton staff "responsible" for the Gulf oil disaster.


The real losers in this game are the shareholders. They lose, as do the staff, customers and suppliers. The only ones who get away scot free are the managers who are laughing all the way to the bank.

To put it another way; The managers delivered on their "performance targets" and are therefore worthy of their bonuses. The fact that an aircraft fell out of the sky as a result is nothing to do with them.

[Isamu Pahoa]

Are you serious GLBS!! The share holders are just like the Managers. They do not give a rats about safety. Thankfully that is why you have to by law employ LAMES to do the job right. But again, they may know a little more than the current batch of managers on that subject but still they are only interested in there own back pockets. :yuk: Just like the greedy managers.
Whilst it is great to have a profitable Airline, I do not see how that gives small penis managers the right to waste money left right and center on a small group of guys who dared to highlight the ineptitude of their so called superiors.

How have those managers remained employed?? What a disaster.

Hey Sunfish..Very true words. Where does that leave the Lame who is the meat in the sandwich trying to keep the aircraft flying at an unreasonable cost? If your the guy who signed for the last related task before the bird goes down, you will be hung on it!!:sad:

[Bigdog01]

You paint a very scary picture - allowing 4 to 500 people to suffer the bonus orientated manager mind.
When will enough be enough - bonus's paid for performance.
Telstra gave their CEO the golden handshake to get rid of him - under performance rewarded.
When an aircraft goes in, it is rarely the companies fault as they are tin plated with rules procedures and enough paperwork to tie up a 100 people for 100 years trying to find out if they were the cause. It is easier to blame the last person who worked on it and if that fails the pilot as they are generally not there to defend themselves.
Should the shareholders demand that the reputation of an iconic brand be maintained to ensure that the unthinkable will not occur.
The near sale of the company under dubious circumstances highlighted the vulnerability of the shares - some gains but generally huge losses once the dust settled - have they recovered ?

[Sunfish]

First of all, don't knock the shareholders. They want to see long term eturns for their investment. That means they are concerned about the brand and safety. They just have to rely on the Board to safeguard their investment.

I have no qualms about paying bonuses either, however I have big issues with how the bonuses are paid.

The issue is about time lines.

The Board and CEO should be looking at the health of the company Five to Ten years ahead, perhaps even more when aircraft life cycles are concerned.

Senior management should be looking one to Four years ahead.

Middle managers and staff - this year - Twelve months rolling, etc.


But giving a CEO a bonus for the last Twelve months performance? All that does is focus him on current performance and invites micromanagement and sub optimal decision making. She is supposed to be looking for long term profitability, not short term cost cutting.

Bonuses should be considerably larger than they already are ....but payable or calculate - able until Five years have elapsed for Board and Senior management. That way we get to see some long term thinking.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

he Board and CEO should be looking at the health of the company Five to Ten years ahead, perhaps even more when aircraft life cycles are concerned.Sunfish, unfortunately, I do think they are looking at the company on a long term basis.

Qantas?
Jetstar!

That doesn't mean the "name" Qantas will disappear.... it will just change form.

[L Riding hood]

When Dixon was CEO with wages plus bonuses he made 33,000 dollars a day seven days a week put that into a 5 day week 10 hrs a day if he took a ten minute sh!t he would have made 552 dollars for sitting on the can.
In 2008 Dixon was paid $12.1 million. This included a “retention payment” of $4.5 million.
In 2009, even though Dixon only worked for four months, he received “base pay” of $1.9 million and total remuneration of $10.7 million. That’s Lot of money for four months’ work I don’t understand how it was justified to pay one person all this.And this was given to him while Qantas was having a big slump in profits. What do the shareholders think about that I would not be impressed!
You can’t tell me that one person is worth that much money!
But they are happy to pay one CEO 552 dollars for laying a loafer but spend millions preventing workers getting that amount for the whole year in wage rise. Dose not make sense to me:ugh:

[neville_nobody]

But they are happy to pay one CEO 552 dollars for laying a loafer but spend millions preventing workers getting that amount for the whole year in wage rise. Dose not make sense to me

It you haven't seen it already go and watch the corporation it will explain alot.

YouTube - the corporation: documentary trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa3wyaEe9vE)

[L Riding hood]

Well Neville N the future looks bleak the rich getting richer And the rest well who are they? Nobody! Obviously big corporations don’t care as long as the bucks keep coming http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif

[Bigdog01]

It is good to see the interest being shown on this thread, however the real reason it started was 6 LAME'S stood down for doing their job.:confused:

The incompetents at Q after 12 weeks are still to make a decision regarding these people. Reminder these people are 1/3 of the licence coverage in Bris vegas.:=

Hopefully have update tomorrow.
Could be a new regional operator soon - bring it on !
Pick the right aircraft - training costs NIL - instant WORKERS.:ok:

[airsupport]

Haven't heard from the ALAEA Fed Sec for a while, is there any news at all Steve???

About the LAMEs stood down and/or about the safety issues???

Thanks. :ok:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Guys are apparently going to get a call today with the outcome.

I am concerned that they have taken 3 months to decide what they will do with these guys. The ALAEA has already commenced action against them in the Federal Court to prevent them from taking any disciplinary action against the 6 for reporting defects on aircraft. I am thinking that they have been preparing their QC's for three months in order to give Qlink a chance of defending their disgraceful actions in the court room.

[airsupport]

Okay, thanks Steve. :ok:

Please keep us advised of any news in this disgusting business.

Any news at all on the safety problems, and CASA follow up?

[ampclamp]

I am almost certain they will be given some form of draconian punishment with the intent of complicating the issue of EBA's and distracting and draining the resources of the ALAEA.

[gobbledock]

I am concerned that they have taken 3 months to decide what they will do with these guys. The ALAEA has already commenced action against them in the Federal Court to prevent them from taking any disciplinary action against the 6 for reporting defects on aircraft. I am thinking that they have been preparing their QC's for three months in order to give Qlink a chance of defending their disgraceful actions in the court room.

Even if the boys win the case QF will take it to FWA and plead that the 'working relationship between QF and the engineer's is unmanageable, parlous and beyond repair'. FWA will likely side with QF and send the boys packing with some miniscule redundancy payment even though they are not guilty of anything.
I hope I am wrong as I am not usually a half glass empty person.

The incompetents at Q after 12 weeks are still to make a decision regarding these people. Reminder these people are 1/3 of the licence coverage in Bris vegas.:=
Has the QF Group done a risk assessment on this ? If so, where is it at present ? A decline in any workforce suddenly by 1/3 poses a heightened safety risk regardless of the reason for the resource decline.
Isn't it comforting to see that a legacy carrier would purposefully create an unecessary elevation of risk within it's organisation over a handful of blokes popping doors with a popsicle stick ? Some say the regulator does not want to be involved in this isue due to it being 'industrial'. Who cares what the reason is, the fact remains that the elevated risk level remains high while this game is being played out. I hope the public and the shareholders are hapy about this ?

When Dixon was CEO with wages plus bonuses he made 33,000 dollars a day seven days a week put that into a 5 day week 10 hrs a day if he took a ten minute sh!t he would have made 552 dollars for sitting on the can.
But they are happy to pay one CEO 552 dollars for laying a loafer but spend millions preventing workers getting that amount for the whole year in wage rise.
Now that is a great analogy and very funny. It also explains why he used to s#it a lot !!
Maybe we could break the figures down even further for Darth (approximates) ;

Sneezing 3 times plus the courteous nose wipe after inhaling a waft of his corporate lunch of salt n pepper calamari, Time = 30 seconds, payment = $26.60 (no bonus).
Time taken to drink 2 James Boags and do an 'extended inflamed prostate pi#s, Time = 2 mins 55 seconds including the traditional stop start process plus an extra jingle upon completion, payment = $ 170.10 (no bonus)
Time taken to perve on Marge after a baord meeting as she bends over to pick up the remnants of her veal scallopini which she spilled on the floor after she panicked when she thought she heard a voice call out 'sell sell sell', Time = 15 seconds, payment = $13.80 (bonus of 300 000 shares)
Time taken to assist in preening and adjusting Strong James bowtie before a shareholder meeting, included is the traditional 'breath test' to ensure ones breath doesnt smell like a dirty $50 note, some cheap banter about proxies and dividends plus a shared joke about a Pilots penis size. Time = 35 minutes, payment = $ 1,932.00 (plus idiot shareholder approved bonus of $1.9 million)..........

[LAME2]

Any word on the phone call yesterday?

FEDSEC or a Sunstate worker care to respond.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

They put it back for the third time.

They are doing it face to face today. Makes it easier to clean the lockers out.

[Sunfish]

I call this deliberate bastardisation.

[airsupport]

I know I have said it before, but I am so disgusted that this could happen anywhere in the Industry, let alone IN Australia, and especially at Qantas. :mad::mad::mad:

[DeafStar]

Updates anyone?

[Bigdog01]

Basically guilty as charged.
Still have job but under 20+ days probation under management supervision on dayshift.
The company claims to have lost confidence in their ( the 6's) engineering ability.:bored:
Appeal being lodged through and to the same people who shafted them - seems fair!:*
Actual details confidential.

Not over yet.

[L Riding hood]

Hang on I don’t’ understand how they can find 1/3 of the engineering work force guilty Shurly this points out that there is a floor in the maintenance protocol of sunnys and maintaining aircraft is not on top of their agenda! Did they have hard facts of the guilty notion or was it guesswork probably guessing I mean lying to prove a point and http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifpeople around who try to make the sky’s safe. I assume the company will try to make another point in the next 20 days. Hang in there guys where with you keep fighting the good fight http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[neville_nobody]

So what is CASA saying about this situation? If you are by law required to report a defect and the doors were proven to be defective what are you supposed to do now? Even if it was hypothetically an industrial campaign that does not get you out of the regulations. A defect is a defect regardless of how you found it or at what stage your pay negotiations were up to.

Secondly to this what are QF saying?? If the engineers knew about this problem, did nothing about it, and someone MacGyvered the door open and hijacked an aircraft are the LAME's then guilty under the same legislation for not reporting a known defect?

CASA has to act here because by not taking action against QF they are condoning a straightforward breach of the regulations

I remember a few years ago a very reputable operator got themselves into a messy situation by not reporting defects. The aircraft was based away from their maintenance base so minor defects weren't written up until the aircraft went in for scheduled maintenance where everything was sorted out no questions asked. CASA inadvertently caught the operator doing this and subsequently read them the riot act threatening to pull their maintenance approval.

So if they are prepared to act on smaller operators then begs the question why are they not going to act here for what is a breach of the regulations? Or are CASA arguing that the doors are not defective?

[Bigdog01]

It would appear that the doors under the reg's meet all known criteria.
The fact it could be opened once locked is of no consequence.
CASA inspected the doors 3 days after locks modified to stop insertion of alt key. Couldn't fault door. Also doors shimmed out to stop leaning on toilet door frame and releasing c/pit door " Alt method #2".
Hence CASA one stop behind - instead of demanding to see A/C immediately.
I believe all of them have been hit with the "conduct unbecoming" out of the Q policy manual.
Sad day for aviation and those who try to maintain "safe sky's for all":{
The big boy's write their own rules. The regulator HAS to make an appointment, otherwise it could be called victimization and they know all about that as they practice it everyday!:yuk:

[SweetnLow]

Just so i'm clear on this, we randomly drug test sportsmen/women so that the integrity of the game is never in question. While the most serious outcome of a drug affected player would be that he/she either play's better (heightened sense of ability etc), or plays worse and gets carried off the field unconcious...number of lives directly affected = 1, and a few p'd off fans and officials.

But, our national regulator can't randomly check our Air Operators for integrity of their operations, while the outcome of a serious incident could directly affect anywhere from 30 - 400 lives, cause a collapse of an airline, cripple the countries air travel etc

Seriously, is that correct? FEDSEC why can't we blow the whistle on all of this? Have the media sensationalised so much that the gov't and travelling public just wouldn't beleive you?

[airsupport]

our national regulator can't randomly check our Air Operators for integrity of their operations

Not sure if the can or not, but as far as I know they never have.

I remember decades ago at AN Airline, we would be advised weeks ahead of a surprise check by CASA, allowing time for Company Inspectors to come first and check all was in order, and correct any problems before the surprise visit from CASA. :rolleyes:

[ampclamp]

airsupport, nothing has changed with those surprise visits mate!!:hmm:

[Arnold E]

Makes it easier to clean the lockers out.

Sorry Fed Sec, but I have to get back to asking, What are you going to do about it?

[airsupport]

airsupport, nothing has changed with those surprise visits mate!!

I thought not, some things never change, God forbid CASA might actually find something. :rolleyes:

That really WOULD be a surprise........... ;)

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Arnold E - Get the hell off this website. It's for aircraft professionals and those persons actually interested in the business. If you wanna keep throwing stones at me, make like a man and send me an email so I know who you are. Until then I will be ignoring your rubbish.

[Arnold E]

make like a man and send me an email so I know who you are.
Done that...........

[Millet Fanger]

To answer your question ARN E;

Sorry Fed Sec, but I have to get back to asking, What are you going to do about it?From reading this thread (and general industry goss.) it seems that so far the Fed Sec has:-
1) Provided direct support to those involved.
2) Provided representation during "hearings".
3) Collected funds for financial support.
4) Provided legal representation/advice.
5) Provided public "situation reports", answered public questions.
6) Raised the situation directedly with senior Qantas management.
7) Discussed the situation with CASA individuals.

What else do you think he should be doing about it, ARN E?

[airsupport]

If I could just say a few (more) words here.

I am around the same age as you Arnold E, give or take a few years, and I must admit (as I have already done here) I really do NOT understand (or agree with) a lot of the current rules and ways of doing things.

However I have corresponded directly with Steve and am sure he is doing everything he possibly can both for these LAMEs and about the safety issues. :ok:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

FYI readers, Arnold E has contacted me privately including a phone number and I have passed on some more detailed info for him.

As I explained there is a fair bit more going on behind the scenes, much of which cannot be discussed here. A cuppla days after the boys were stood down we commenced action in the Federal Court to test this case under some new, yet to be successfully used workplace laws. Section 340 of the Fair Work Act if anyone is interested.

cheers

[airsupport]

GOOD, glad you guys have sorted something out. :ok:

Please keep us advised (as much as you can) of any news, thanks again. :ok:

[GLBS]

Casa is the issuer of the LAME licence, and the regulatory body, so if they had advised the Sunstate engineers, where they stood on the door safety issue, this mess would have been avoided.

[airsupport]

Casa is the issuer of the LAME licence, and the regulatory body, so if they had advised the Sunstate engineers, where they stood on the door safety issue, this mess would have been avoided.

True, however as I said earlier I contacted several people, including very senior people, at CASA regarding my concerns about this situation and ALL of them just said they were NOT involved as it was industrial action. :ugh:

While I can understand that CASA do NOT want to become involved in any industrial action, and neither should they get involved in industrial action at an Operator, they should still be keeping an eye on safety issues. :ugh:

[GLBS]

Had Qantas not been involved, Casa would have been in boots and all.

[airsupport]

Had Qantas not been involved, Casa would have been in boots and all.

According to all those people at CASA they take action whenever needed, against anyone, including Qantas. :rolleyes:

[L Riding hood]

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills! How do engineers get investigated for doing there job and CASA stand idle by and do nothing because there in negations what kind of an excuse is that CASA SHOULD GET IN THERE AND INFORCE THE REGULATIONS! WTF IS GOING ON!:mad::mad::mad:

[Bigdog01]

It was called Industrial action - no O/T, no traveling for breakdown's and no stepping up to fill senior roles.
The company shut down the shift system that allowed maintenance to be carried out..
They set up the third party maintenance and introduced the fine system with the credo "the layers made us do it".:=
The door locks had been mentioned to the idiots on prior occasions - result - nil response.
The 6 instigated the following - modification of door locks (even though nothing wrong) and eventually installation of the electronic key pad type (still nothing wrong with the old lock):D
If Q was really interested in ending dispute they would make first contact however more interested in coming to talk at the engineers with the usual rhetoric "not here to negotiate but reiterate the companies position" I think the boy's know your position.
If the Qld monopoly on RPT is disturbed by another player - then you will realy see what the bastardry has achieved.

[airsupport]

Steve,

Been quite a few days, any news at all on the industrial situation and/or the safety concerns???

Thank you............ :ok:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Hey all,

Yes the saga continues and will for a while.

The six have all been found guilty (by Qantaslink Managers) of all these breaches of procedure. They have been given letters on file and are back at work after a 3 month break.

They have also been docked 4 hours pay each for the day they snagged the cockpit doors because in the companies view this action was not carrying out their job in the normal manner and therefore constitutes unprotected Industrial Action. I wonder if the 380 pilots who turned a plane back to Sin suffered the same fate?

ALAEA is contesting this whole lot of garbage in the Federal Court. We have been preparing submissions this week.

[airsupport]

Okay, thank you. :ok:

Please keep us informed of any future news on this disgusting business. :mad:

I hope the Companies do NOT make this c*ap retrospective :eek: or I will be liable for a fortune, all the defects I have found and reported as an LAME over some 40 years. :rolleyes:

[Sunfish]

What happens when a LAME sends an aircraft out with a defect and it crashes?

Is it going to be a defence in the inevitable CASA prosecution, that the LAME knew that something was defective, but did not ground the aircraft for fear of being penalised for unprotected industrial action?

Do we have not a "double bind" situation where the company formal procedures are at variance with the informal procedures, but a "triple bind" situation where not only are the company's formal procedures at variance with their actual procedures, but the regulator (CASA) has its own version of what should be done that is at variance with both?

This is where the non specific, "Alician*" looking glass legislation leaves us all without guidance.

* 'No, no!' said the Queen. 'Sentence first - verdict afterwards.'

'Stuff and nonsense!' said Alice loudly. 'The idea of having the sentence first!'

'Hold your tongue!' said the Queen, turning purple.

'I won't!' said Alice.

'Off with her head!' the Queen shouted at the top of her voice. Nobody moved.

[Isamu Pahoa]

I hear that an ex manager from Sunstate will be coming back to help the company out. It is a bit rude after they basically pushed him out the door a couple of years ago and were happy to see him go. I suspect he may be in for a bit of a rough time from the lads on the floor. Not one to be trusted.:confused:

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

So where do we send the money (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/434874-fighting-fund-sunstate-engineers-you-can-help.html#post6082338) to fight?

FRQ CB

[airtags]

SP - good to see the union taking it on in the Fed Court - as well as a favourable judgement perhaps the court can order directions for a bit of corporate common sense too!

AT

[Bigdog01]

Just a thought here.
The 6 have had 3 months off - come back for retraining in company procedures - 20+ days probation.
The company has supposedly lost confidence in their - integrity, ability ?
Shouldn't all engineers there have a real reason to have little faith in the management to do the right thing i.e. GIVE THEM A FAIR GO !
With a former employee coming back under - contract ? Knowing the situation how low is this :mad: person.
Hopefully he will be given the cold shoulder he so rightly deserves.
It will be interesting to see if the Fed court is "SO" impressed with the expensive lawyers brought in by the Q that the truth takes a back seat to the interpretation (to the bull****).
I believe a very dangerous precedent has been set and it will only be up to the spinal fortitude of the individual to not allow the company to steam roll them. Knowing full well that the company will never back that person, but offer them up as the sacrificial lamb to take the heat off their own incompetence.
To all - tread carefully and cover thy backside.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just a further update all. This one is about the unfair wage dockings. The matter was partially handed over to the Fair Work Ombudsman. They are investigating the docking of 4 hours pay because 2 LAMEs took 10 minutes from start time until they got to an aircraft that was departing some time later. No delay involved.

First interviews for this matter are on Wednesday.

cheers
Steve

[airsupport]

This whole thing is just so ridiculous and a terrible reflection on Qantas. :mad:

So what are these LAMEs supposed to do, IF your shift starts at say 0700 are Qantas saying you MUST be at whatever aircraft you are going to work on at exactly 0700? :confused:

IF this is what these morons at Qantas are saying, are you supposed to do things like find out what aircraft you are going to be working on, what checks and other work is required on said aircraft, checking all the paper work and log books etc in your OWN TIME? :confused:

Ridiculous behaviour from The Spirit Of Australia, totally UN AUSTRALIAN....... :mad:

[Bigdog01]

Steve,
This is good news, but I believe there were other dockings for frivolous matters.
Will they be taken to task over these also.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Yes they will all get a run eventually.

[B.U.F.F.]

I am new here but have been reading this thread for awhile and finally decided to post.
Is this for real - a major player in the airline industry treating there engineering staff this way.
The best insurance any company can have against incidents are loyal and dedicated engineers who will use their expertise without bias to ensure safe air travel.
I am sure each and every engineer out there who reads this thread will be asking himself " would or could my company do this to me".
How will the company get back a good working relationship with its staff, from the outside looking in irrepaireable damage done - trust levels on both sides non existent.
There needs to be a co-operative working relationship between managers and staff.
Obviously something triggered this mess - couldn't have just been a dispute over a pay rise.

[Sue Ridgepipe]

How will the company get back a good working relationship with its staff, from the outside looking in irrepaireable damage done - trust levels on both sides non existent.

Hey B.U.F.F. you just need to speak to ANY QF employee in ANY department and they will tell you this applies to the whole company, not just one particular group of employees.

[Isamu Pahoa]

Obviously something triggered this mess - couldn't have just been a dispute over a pay rise.


Years of being lied to buy managers who are more interested in pleasing their bosses buy cost cutting and not improving the efficiencies of a maintenance base stuck in the 80's when they had a couple of twin otters.:ugh:The pay dispute was the straw on the camels back.

[B.U.F.F.]

Hey B.U.F.F. you just need to speak to ANY QF employee in ANY department and they will tell you this applies to the whole company, not just one particular group of employees.



Sue it is very sad when such an iconic company in Aus willing treats its employees in such a manner. What gains do they hope to achieve?
Where do they hope to be in 10 years or is it a case of " I won't be there in 5 years got my bonus let some other fool sort out my mess".
Flash in the pan managers - too many aussie companies import these genius's only to find out they aren't as good as they think they are. Then they hire another to fix the mess left, only to find the next ones no better.

[Bigdog01]

Just heard there have been more fines handed down by the mis management team.
Fined 8 hours pay for U/Sing 2 aircraft for non secure cockpit doors - waited 3 months to do this - one of the popsicle 6.
Not sure how many infringements each these guys are going to get fined for - could be for each substantiated item.
What a system they have - subsidies the replacement of so called compliant door locks with fines from the guys who only had the public's best interest at heart. Seems fair.

[Short_Circuit]

Regardless of the reason, if it ain't secure,, it ain't secure.. full stop..:ugh:

(SP do we need to top up THE fund yet)

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Top up not required yet. Still a bit in hold.

[L Riding hood]

Hay B.U.F.F
What gains do they hope to achieve?
Well I think they are going for the Guinness book of records to see how big of a hole they have to dig to get the last piece of metal out of a smoking hole
Where do they hope to be in 10 years

If they keep pulling this sh!t non excitant

Ps if you keep treating people like sh!t the only people left will be those with sh!t for brains!!!

[Isamu Pahoa]

The f#$ked up government needs to step in and realise that this ridiculous law that Qantas is taking advantage of is seriously undermining the working rights of every man and woman. They also need to realise that it has the serious potential to massively impact on aircraft safety. They need to stop listening to the so called experts who provide spread sheets and colourful charts to which has resulted in the "must have workplace reform" laws we are currently subjected to. These laws are going to create a serious stink throughout all industries if something does not change. Qantas has shown severe misjudgment by allowing this crap to go as far as this.

Where the bloody hell is CASA. How can a Lame do his job if he is second guessing what is classified as safety/security, or because the Lame should not be looking there in the first place or has changed the way he customarily carried out his work. What a crock, CASA can't keep its head in the sand forever. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::}

[rudderless1]

Where the bloody hell is CASA!
That stamped on a flouro white and orange baseball cap
With a little red flashing LED on top worn by Lames around the
Country could be an act of Lame solitary against this persecution.
After all the buck stops with them! They should be worn
Until these guys are exonerated

[B.U.F.F.]

L riding hood :
I personally think they started with sh!t for brains has now now moved to sh!t on the liver.
rudderless1
regarding the hats - great idea.
should try and source some, if so put me down for one :ok:
Hear through the grapevine sunnies manager doesn't like the ALAEA hat. the boys should wear them !
Isamu Pahoa
Wide load big red - won't go down that path until re-election time, then amend to keep unions happy without upsetting big business's. as per last time when a couple of sections removed and act renamed.

[B.U.F.F.]

It would appear from various threads here and in other material.
AJ is paranoid - everybody is out to get him.
The whole workforce is against him.
Those nasty foreign airlines trying to encroach on his lucrative routes - how dare they offer newer aircraft and service to boot.
Seems nobody remembers F-111 australian Gov't signed up as a partner in the development - costs blow out, delivery delayed. Latest attempt submarines for the Navy - already looking for alternatives haven't been right from the start.

So the 380 and the 787 will be the savior of QF
787 delayed - that helps
380 recent incident - not helpful.
Staff not getting a fair shake at the table during EBA's - why probably due to commitment on new untried aircraft. Probably can't enforce the delay clause as if they did builder goes down, investment gone along with the company, so they suck it up and try to save costs else where. Hey pick on the staff - expect them to work harder, longer and in real terms for less as the price of everything around them goes up.
Fuel prices gone back up - QF raises the surcharge to cover shortfall on hedged price. Can staff raise their surcharge for turning up to work - not likely suck it up !
Cost of living goes up, mortgage up, food up, electricity up, water up, rates up, natural disaster medicare up and oh fuel up, costs you more to get to work staff - suck it up.
Manager gets fuel,phone and other assorted no cost to him benefits.
Can sit in the nice comfy chair do nothing ( no increase in costs) pick up a bonus.
But the cracks appear outside the door, do the same for the next year - another bonus. Cracks now getting bigger - still do nothing once again another bonus.
Staff fall in cracks - LTI bugger bonus affected put sign around crack job done minimum expense still get bonus. Crack getting bigger but sign cheapest option. Advantage of chasm between boss & staff - no communication, won't have to do anything - guess what BONUS

[Bigdog01]

Has gone quiet since the return of the "6", however debacle not solved.
Sunnies managers gone quiet - too quiet.
They haven't even bothered to tell us the truth about the situation for sometime now.
Either packing up their offices ready to leave or concentrating really hard on the next round to try and break the will of the LAME's.

With the Int'l pilots and QF LAME's EBA's up and running, has QF decided to concentrate on these issues and not the ones regarding only 26 remaining LAME's.

[Bigdog01]

It would seem that engineering takes a very poor backseat in the scheme of airline business. The company's Q and QL are very willing to negotiate with pilots threatening PIA but when engineering threaten the same it's like bring it on, you can't dictate terms.

Sorry but I think it is time they compensated for the late nights, standing in the rain, not providing appropriate equipment or facilities.

[Isamu Pahoa]

I see they have advertised for a supervisor for Brisbane Qantaslink. I gather it is with the Sunstate guys? I can't keep track, is it a Qantaslink position or is it a Sunstate Airlines position.

It sounds like a great place to work, maybe I will put in a CV :E. I don't have much experience with Dash8 but sounds like you don't need it!!

Then again, I think I will stay where I am. They treat me nice and listen when there are issues. :D

[Bigdog01]

Isamu Pahoa
I don't think you should waste your time - position, as most are in this organization, ear marked for the SPECIAL PEOPLE.
If you have a brain & use it - FAIL
If you want to improve things - FAIL (might cost too much)
If not a relation or a suck - FAIL
Realize person conducting interview is a moron - Pass. Then you don't want the job.

[BOBO THE CLOWN 23]

Any word on the Sunstate boys? I have seen a QL Dash8 parked at the Qantas hangar in Brisbane for a couple of weeks. Whats going on with that aircraft?

[Bigdog01]

Probably wasn't the same aircraft, however it may have been one fresh from contractor heavy maintenance. Spent more time on the ground than revenue flights.
Aircraft parked waiting to be fixed by contracted scabs rather than try to solve the issues which caused **** fight.

QL management put in place shift that is totally unusable for maintenance, basic turnarounds and put aircraft to bed. Big jobs wait for managers and scabs.
Reliability of aircraft falling, snags not being fixed during scheduled maintenance, maintenance logs full of extensions for deferred maintenance.
Not a lot of news coming forth as Fed Sec involved in back room discussions regarding this and Q engineers EA.
Many are frustrated but hanging in there determined not to back down due to the previous years of being treated like utter morons by the management who are tucked up nice and warm in bed whilst we try to achieve miracles without spares, equipment and manpower.

Managers so arrogant and cocky that they are already saying the opposition won't last long. Having a monopoly for so long has bred this attitude of indestructibility. Half arsed managers doing a half arsed job getting bonus's when they should be ensuring that when the crunch comes they have the staff with motivation and enthusiasm to get through the hard times. At present most staff just marking time waiting for a better offer.

[Going Nowhere]

Add to that Alliance once again doing BNE-ROK 3-4 times a day just so they can have another spare Q400 on the deck when one no doubt ****s itself every other day! :ugh:

[LAME2]

Hang in there Bigdog and all the brothers in this dispute. Whilst you may like a quicker fix to the issues, patience will see you through.

[Bigdog01]

I will be hanging in there, wish to see the results from sticking it back up the morons.
Hopefully the only people losing their jobs will be the instigators of the dispute due to incompetence shown in the past.
Feel sorry for the young guys, many more years of the inconsiderate tactics to face in their blossoming careers. They should be encouraged to stay with fair pay and good conditions. However many seek employment elsewhere due to better pay and better conditions. Aviation has let its guard down, talent outside this industry has been recognized and payed accordingly.

[1746]

I can't agree more with your sentiments!

I and many others trust you all will have the strength and willpower to see these industry termites off!

Oh, to see them all reap their just deserves would warm the soul!!

[Isamu Pahoa]

I bet the local managers are glad to have the paddle pop six back from their little holiday. Especially since it has been noticed that one of the Q400's has been on the deck u/s nearly every day since coming out of one of the so called capable third party maintenance facilities. I think it has been stated by management as protecting the business, by using such facilities. :D that hole is going to take some plugging!

[B.U.F.F.]

Having been out and about recently, it would seem there is a lot of work occuring during the day at H2. Who is doing this ? Contractors or staff ?
Are the contractors only allowed to work there during the day.
I see from one of the posts that an ex employee is supposedly supervising these contractors - gutsy move by somebody who obviously doesn't give a flying :mad: about anything but himself.
Why did he leave?

What do the Qantas engineers think of this contract labor - being used to cir-cum vent the protected action.
I hear through the grapevine that QL management are talking to the pilots who threatened PIA but have not heard if the same deal or anything has been offered to the LAME's.
Have management given up trying to solve the issues ?

I also hear and read that they are buying another operator and increasing its aircraft numbers. Why ? Do they intend to bring this operator over to the east coast to plug the void. Maybe it is to shaft the operator now being used as a charter to pick up the slack on their current routes.

VB/Skywest deal any news on where they intend to operate or will it be direct replacement for the routes the EMB170 used to do.

[Bigdog01]

Isamu,
The plug has been pulled, however the flow out is exceeding the flow in.
Third party maintenance - premium price for very average work.
Average number of aircraft on ground daily - 2. reason parts or manpower.
Managers in hangar over weekend - 2 taking up slack of their own making.

[Going Nowhere]

1x Q400 u/s on the bay today
3x Air Returns (1x Q400, 2x Q200 - same aircraft)

:ok:

And then they go and plie a heap of extra Q400 flying on from April :ugh:

[Bigdog01]

5 - U/S Q400
1 - U/S Q300
1 - U/S Q200
Not enough space H2 for the broken aircraft, all 3 bays hangar 2 full of busted QLink aircraft. Not a QLink engineer in sight, only managers and contractors, (Sat & Sun) :rolleyes:

[B.U.F.F.]

After having seen the posts, I will definitely be scratching QLink Brisbane off the list of places to apply for a job.
Have seen several ads and dismissed them accordingly.
Plus I don't think they would pay enough to try and fix the place, that is if you were allowed to fix it.

[Jabawocky]

5 - U/S Q400
1 - U/S Q300
1 - U/S Q200
Not enough space H2 for the broken aircraft, all 3 bays hangar 2 full of busted QLink aircraft. Not a QLink engineer in sight, only managers and contractors, (Sat & Sun) :rolleyes:

Is this all in BNE? :eek:

[Bigdog01]

Jabawocky

Sure is sunny down town :mad: central

[B.U.F.F.]

Has there been any movement at Qlink Brisbane.
The 6 are back at work and is the probationary period finished.
Still appear to be a lot of aircraft in or out front of QH2 on a daily basis - why ?
Can't possibly be surplus to requirements.
I read and see here that maintenance has been out sourced, if so and these aircraft are broken as appears to be the case. Then they are spending money wisely.
What is being done to address this issue - surely this can't be blamed on the Brisbane engineer's.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Ask Alan. I'm sure you will get the usual responses -

"We only use top notch maintenance providers"
and
"We always put safety first"

The sad thing is that I think he honestly believes what he is saying.

[33 Disengage]

Isn't that what got the 'paddle-pop six' into trouble in the first place - putting "safety before schedule"?

It almost makes you sick!!

[Short_Circuit]

It almost makes you stick.....

[Isamu Pahoa]

Executive level bonuses
Senior manager bonuses
Lower management bonuses
Share price
Cost cutting
Covering up mistakes
Anything they can ignore
Running the Airline
Passengers
Safety
EmployeesOrder of importance, I missed a few in the middle. I can feel the love:E

[Bigdog01]

Third party maintenance only do what is required, no preventative maintenance, not on the list of things to do. apart from that - operators problem.
Plus the operator won't usually pay the exurbanite fee associated with extra work.
The Australian had a picture of QLink Syd hard at work, however it is a real shame nobody ever took a photo of QLink Brisbane where there would have been on numerous occasions 2 more aircraft in front of those 3 pictured - but H2 Brisbane is bigger I hear you say. But it was also a shared facility sometimes the owners actually wanted to use it as well maybe even 2 bays, or to put a big airplane in.
Did this worry QLink Bne management NO - usually whinged the next morning (slack nightshift :mad:) due to the fact work couldn't be or wasn't done.

[B.U.F.F.]

Whispers abound that Sunnies have a new Chief Engineer.
Trades assistant to chief engineer in 9 years :ok:
Previous experience bus builder, after all RPT aircraft are only buses that leave the ground.
Who ever would have thought that the statement " pilots are only flying bus driver's" would ever come true.
Why not have a bus fabricator in charge of the flying bus's, just need to pass the engineering exams, do the courses, be related and BINGO the place is yours.
I always thought that a chief engineer's position was for those who knew what they were doing around aircraft- experience lets you make the right decision.
Can't always be done like a game show - phone a friend or relative for the answer.:yuk:
NO WONDER THIS MOB ARE IN TROUBLE feel sorry for the LAME's still there!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

It helps when Daddy is the manager.

[A65T]

Heard that one of the Q400's had an air return to Canberra due to the cockpit door coming open in flight and they couldn't reshut it. This is the same A/C that came out of contractor heavy maintenance and spent more time on the ground in Bne than flying.
Still no problems with the cockpit doors.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Bugger the cockpit doors, we don't need to fix them. Lets tackle some of the important stuff. Message from management -

Subject: At Risk Behaviour

Over recent weeks a number of ALAEA decals have been placed on company and BACL property the placing of these decals contravenes Qantas Group Policy, more importantly it is clear that employees have placed themselves and potentially workmates at risk by placing these decals at height on ceilings above benches and on external signs. All indications are the employees placing these decals would have climbed on benches, non load bearing walls and potentially the wire mesh above the workshop office. If so the employee(s) have placed themselves their work mates and the Qantas Group businesses at significant personal and regulatory risk.

BACL have also advised the deliberate vandalism of their busses, signage and property in general will not be tolerated. BACL are currently reviewing security camera footage.

Additionally we have recently had a burn out conducted in the hangar during overnight of 16th March as detailed in the attached photo there is evidence that this deliberate act was conducted with a QantasLink vehicle.

If investigations determine you are connected to these behaviours that clearly break the group cardinal rules there will be a formal investigation and disciplinary action that may lead to termination of your employment. The business must take these actions in order to protect the people.

Should you have any information that would shed any light on these unsafe acts please do not hesitate to contact me. If confidence is required a confidential Safety Observation Report may also be submitted.

For clarity a copy of the cardinal rules is attached.



David Delahay
Manager Line Maintenance
QantasLink

[Isamu Pahoa]

Why do I keep thinking the whole world has gone mad? This idiotic bunch of managers are happy to promote a guy who has the longest list of cardinal rule and OH&S breaches to his name such as doing reverse line lockers out of the hangars, speeding and abusing vehicles, harassing fellow employees and even repositioning an A/C using a battery powered Taylor Dunn because he was to impatient to wait for the correct equipment. Only days after his implementation as the new Chief, DD sends out an email like that.
What a toss, If you are happy to take the pineapple spiky end first, of course its in your best interest because the boss is your father in-law and they know about all of your naughty history from the past to keep you in-line you to would be thrilled with the new position. Congratulations KP!:D

[Bigdog01]

Well well - we are indeed in dire straights as far as engineering guidance is required. new chief engineer, with apparently the return of the extra level of supervision. With an acting dayshift supervisor who resigned from a night shift leading hand position (also non union member, done quite well, during industrial action) - reward, bonus !!!!!!
Considering the last weekends - with busted aircraft. Maybe having the extra level the aircraft will not break down. Fat chance - not a good start 2 dead.
Aircraft maybe getting checks done (sort of) but the lack of preventative maintenance is showing.
Plus DD on war path again over so called equipment abuse - engineers hardly in hangar any more. Other people using vehicles more than engineers.
ALAEA stickers are they that thin skinned.

Instead of paying appropriate wages, hire more managers with fancy titles.
When will they learn - happy and productive workforce less work for manager.
Common sense really but this gene missing from current management - lets see how they twist current engagement survey - made key improvements but need to do more work, only key improvement is the number issued to the executive washroom.
Solve workers issues with more managers - how about current managers doing the job properly - novel thought.

[ampclamp]

The letter is designed to be inflammatory.
Do not react.

[L Riding hood]

What going on with this company? They have hired the managers son? no nepotism there, is it true he took to a cupboard with a butchers knife man what a Waco. And this email about stickers well these managers really have f#@k all to do, apparently the ALAEA hats are getting a reaction with the local management, I know you boys are not wearing them to piss them off but what a bonus and the senior who thinks that it is harassment when people have ALAEA sticker and hats MATE WHAT A JOKE, the idiots running this place you boys must laugh with all the stupid stuff that goes on :8

[D Delay-Hay]

Is this the same guy who rolled the catering van whilst doing burnouts in the wet outside hangar 2 ?

[BOBO THE CLOWN 23]

Is it the same guy who left his inspection mirror in the engine, which caused the engine controls to lock up on take off?

[Bigdog01]

Answer - YES to all and many more stupid mistakes

[Bigdog01]

Here we are nearing the end of Mar 2011, current agreement finished 30 June 2009.
Progress so far :
1. Engineer's fined for being at work fixing aircraft.
2. Engineer's stood down for highlighting defects on aircraft, supposedly against company policy.
3. CASA brought in to investigate - don't get involved with industrial issues.
Must have been a good spin by the management to relate defects to industrial issues :ouch:
4. Third party maintenance set up to do work - how can this be cheaper than log of claims originally raised by engineer's and summarily dismissed as being too costly.:*
5. ferrying aircraft empty to get checks done - no cost there either !
6. Aircraft due to be modified/upgraded for the defect that wasn't. See CASA obviously nothing wrong here when mod's being carried out after the fact.

The silence is deafening from both parties.
Currently being told to hang on and enjoy the ride - well I'm ready so somebody had better push the button to get this sucker moving or boredom will set in.
Currently way behind the eight ball in relation to other operators, can't see it changing in the near future. Still trying to play catch up to gain equality, then to see the opposition pull away again.

[Arnold E]

Here we are nearing the end of Mar 2011, current agreement finished 30 June 2009.
Progress so far :
1. Engineer's fined for being at work fixing aircraft.
2. Engineer's stood down for highlighting defects on aircraft, supposedly against company policAny Qf management care to comment, (any level) let's hear from ya.

Just askin'

[Isamu Pahoa]

Good luck with that Arnold. I can hear it now, "the lawyers made me do it".:yuk:

Just makes you wonder why? When all this has been dished out to a bunch of guys who agreed to the whole deal, in principle, plus worked out a new roster for them which the company agreed, yet the managers still could not find a way to settle the dispute down.

You wouldn't let them run the school raffle. But hey, they are great talent scouts:ok:

[neville_nobody]

Did this saga get mentioned in the Senate Inquiry?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Yes it did. You can read the submission from the ALAEA from the senate page.

[B.U.F.F.]

Fed Sec
Call me stupid but where can I read your submission.
Is it on the ALAEA site or Gov site ?

I hear through the grapevine Q400 engine seized solid - internal failure.
Qantas and engines not a good mix at present, also believe Qlink operate power by the hour. Surely trend monitoring gave a small hint of impending doom - very rare to have catastrophic failure without some kind of parameter warnings.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Submission 49.

Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Rural Affairs and Transport Committee: Pilot training and airline safety including consideration of the Transport Safety Investigation Amendment (Incident Reports) Bill 2010: Submissions Received (http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rat_ctte/pilots_2010/submissions.htm)

[B.U.F.F.]

Thanks Fed Sec

[Going Nowhere]

BUFF,

Yep, QOS is sitting in Rocky at the moment waiting for an engine ex Syd.

[BOBO THE CLOWN 23]

The person who looks at the trend monitoring didn't want to report the trend change because they would get docked 4 hours pay.

[Isamu Pahoa]

Yep, that would definitely be uncharacteristic.
I hear there's a threesome happening in Rocky. At least they can save the money on motel rooms. How sweet:E

[Bigdog01]

The person who looks at the trend monitoring didn't want to report the trend change because they would get docked 4 hours pay.

BoBo,
Trends need to be understood - usually done by people with engine type experience not monkeys working to a price.
Experienced person - tech manager working night and day covering work in brissy. Too busy to do his proper job !
Plus with the checks far apart and the constraints of the schedule and not scheduling maintenance into bris vegas ( no maintenance facility there) as all special equipment and a lot of the spares now moved to where maintenance can be carried out (third party).
Its a case of "crossing the fingers and hoping it lasts" - oops didn't make it.

[Bigdog01]

Hear through the grapevine QLink engineering manager bad mouthing his current staff to as many other operators as he can.

What - is he scared they might leave.

Why would they do that when he runs such a happy place. :yuk:

If this happened to you would you not think twice about the reason for the outburst. If they are so bad wouldn't you be happy to get rid of them and not hinder their departure - make it somebody else's problem.
Maybe he is such a good person that he wants to keep all the bad engineers to himself so that nobody else has to put up with them - what a matyr.

[L Riding hood]

Thanks fed sec for the links to the senate inquire. I have been reading various blogs into the different situations the company Qantas and affiliated subsidiary have chosen to discipline their employees.

It sounds to me that Pilots and engineers who have uncover a safety concerns all have raised the problem with their local management. For some reason management have failed to implement a plan of action to rectify the issues (some may call it negligence). The pilots and engineers not receiving any follow up action by management have had to seek other methods to have the problem solved eg either going to their unions or the regulating authority. When the company have got wind of this they drag the employee over the coals for not going through company policy and procedures to get a resolution. They make any excuse to terminate their employment or discipline them for bring the companies name into disrepute.

All these issue where bought up with management and they fail to do anything about it. It is these so called managers who have given Qantas the bad name and are running it into the ground. They are trying to offset their incompetence by placing the blame on hard working individuals who actually give a dame about airline safety and the well being of its passengers. And the managers only care about lining their pockets

But what I do not under stand is that this type of pathetic management style is all throughout this company from mainline to j* and Q-Link. I didn’t think that there where so many evil low life’s who have no morals

There are so many cases where employees have raised concerns and instead of being praised for doing a great job and highlighting potential risks are instead punished because the manager thinks he will be questioned about the matter and will be found out about his apparent lack of skills the flaws in there management ability and so try to cover it up by removing and or disciplining the employee for bring a concern to light instead of encourage excellent work place ethics which would result in a safer and more efficient environment and there would be no need for arse covering

The end result from the negligence of these companies will be a catastrophic incident and no doubt the typical management will not except any blame and past the buck onto the pilots or engineers. And the flight crew and passengers will pay the ultimate price

It’s a very bleak future for Qantas if it survives the raping from executives and their poor management teams. It will surly no longer been an Australian company and why should an Irishman care.:{:oh::ugh::mad:

[Flokkered]

Agreed. After reading the 37 page submission from the ALAEA the industry IS in a downward spiral in regards to safety reporting by LAMES's to their non-aviation background puppet managers. What's more concerning is that the industry benchmark ie Qantas group is named in all the occurances in the submission. You have KS from Network (now QLINK) who got the boot by LE for finding defects on a F100 when it came out of a c-check. You have the entire sunstate saga (Qlink) which every LAME in Aus has been aware of. And then you have the whole Jit* pacific saga where once again LAME's doing there job IAW the regs/approved maint data have been completely shafted.
The Q group should be setting the standard - not lowering it. Thanks to the ALAEA for highlighting to the senate the type of treatment LAME's are often subjected to when grounding an aircraft due to safety concerns or
lack of approved test equipment or parts. Commercial pressure is VERY REAL in this day and age and LAME's have a constant fight on their hands to do their job right - by the book/regs without fear of retribution by their employer. Thanks to Steve and the team for all your efforts.

[Bigdog01]

Well here we are another week of the IRISH crying poor.

Interesting article in the news paper today, top 9 execs at Q so proud of posting profit gave themselves big back slap and 58% increase in wages.

So lets see 58% of 4 mil = 2.32 mil nice bonus to make the next year more bearable - should cover the cost of living increases.

Staff increase 3% example wage 61000 = 1830 nearly covers increase in electricity and water. Doesn't cover fuel and groceries. damn get over it.
You work for the caring sharing Q management.
:*

[Arnold E]

Staff increase 3% example wage 61000 = 1830 nearly covers increase in electricity and water. Doesn't cover fuel and groceries. damn get over it.
You work for the caring sharing Q management.

Any Qf lover care to comment??

[Cactusjack]

Interesting article in the news paper today, top 9 execs at Q so proud of posting profit gave themselves big back slap and 58% increase in wages.

Correction. They werent sets of 'hands' slapping against each others backs !

[Arnold E]

Please let me get this correct, and I dont want any mistakes, is it correct that senior managers at Q HAVE been awarded a large pay rise and as yet Q pilots and engineers have yet to be made a firm offer? but are unlikely to be offered much more than 3%? Is this the truth? or am I just stupid? and if I am thats fine, coz I dont understand whats happening here.

[mootyman]

I can only wish that in the very near future someone in CASA grows a good set of aggats.

The last time I saw a supposed annonyamous report go into CASA about a very average airworthiness protocol a innocent bystander had a lot of damage done to their career and passion for the industry.

From what I have seen in my limited time with the industry CASA comes into audit and completly misses the problems at hand.

They are more worried that the i's are not dotted and the t's not crossed.

There is no pressure from them to enhance spares, training or manpower.

Every engineer is packing darkies when grounding a plane if there is not a directive from the company to look at the area in question.

Lucky we have the ALAEA in there to bat for us, if not i would have bailed by now for sure

[Bigdog01]

No I won't call any worker stupid, however the news paper article was trying to explain that just about every group within the Q group are in wage negotiations. Getting nowhere mind you due to the company crying poor and in the same article saying the executives gave themselves a hefty pay rise.

These same execs are giving the consulting firm direct orders to contain wage rise for workers to 3% or better. This will then ensure the consulting firm max payment as nobody will agree to this without a fight thus prolonging negotiations hence more work = bigger bill by them win win.

[B.U.F.F.]

What is happening, I see Skywest/Virgin looking for pilots and an Eng manager east coast. Anything for the engineer's yet?

Obviously Q management aren't afraid you will pack your tool box's.
Should only be a type course and accelerated training for most of you there at Sunstate.

Shame they didn't choose the Q400!
Maybe the ATR has some advantages.

[BOBO THE CLOWN 23]

You say they are looking for an Engineering manager? maybe DD might apply?

[D Delay-Hay]

Hey Bobo,
Why would I go there, I've been doing a great job here for the last 20 years. You guys just don't understand me.

[Going Nowhere]

Alliance now doing 3-4 BNE-ROK and 2 BNE-MKY flights a day just so QLink can have a 'spare' in BNE. :ugh:

[BOBO THE CLOWN 23]

DD you have done a great job with pineapple and son. Its the lawyers I dont understand.

[B.U.F.F.]

Hear round the traps this person trying to get extra people from other operators to come and work at sunnies during their days off.

This is very low for an ex employee, obviously not well liked.
Also hear being knocked back - some people still have morals.
Way to go.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The noose is slowly tightening.

[mootyman]

Thats great to hear ginger beers have morals and not undercutting/scabbing their mates over there. Pity tis not the same in the west.

[D Delay-Hay]

I've heard that it was written in the minutes of an OH&S meeting that all the Dash 8 cockpit doors were being changed to electronic lock doors due to an ergonomic problem with the latches, ie pilots hurting their hands while trying to open the doors. Is this how they are trying to cover up the fact that you could gain access to the cockpit with a paddle pop stick or folded up boarding pass.:ugh:Can anyone confirm ?

[L Riding hood]

Here is a laugh for you Qlink have advertised for a tooling coordinator as the current guy was promoted to a ground equip coordinator or something didn’t take them long to advertise for this position. And if you can for fill the requirement to be a successful candidate you would not even bother going for it and then you would Lough at the prothetic wage they would offer. But what about replacing the nine odd engineers that have left? no need for a tooling coordinator if there is no engineers to use them:D
PS they would have more qualifications than the current chief engineer

[Isamu Pahoa]

Gee, ground equipment coordinator. In recent times there has been one guy fall of a stand with no hand rails head first, a Go-ezy tipped over due to incorrect tyres and improper inflation and generally a major lack of equipment to carry out the job required which the guys have screamed about. All of which they somehow turn around to being the workers fault.
Now they have put a guy in the job who has no engineering back ground (aviation or otherwise) and who is desperate to be given a job on the tools fixing A/C......I hope he is not going to be the next fall guy for the incompetent managers there. Good luck to him.

[Bigdog01]

This person will have to be switched on as he/she needs to have vital equipment where ever the work is not being carried out.
Case in point 2 Q400 fuel tank probes (different A/C) to be changed in BNE, vital piece of equipment in CNS where both probes should have be changed days previously by 3rd party maintenance.
Engineer's can only raise MEL to keep A/C flying, crews can ground them when they get the willies about climbing stands to do fuel dips at out stations after refuelling and prior to departure. Option carry fuel for the days flying - good luck.

[newsensation]

The Townsville Refuler said the Pilots are not trained to do fuel dips...

[rmcdonal]

The Townsville Refuler said the Pilots are not trained to do fuel dips...
Q400 has magnasticks so no dipping. Crew are trained to manually check fuel QTY... they just don't like to :E

[D Delay-Hay]

I hear that Felix has arrived in Bne.

[Bigdog01]

Well here we are another month into this debacle.
Situation the same management crying poor on TV and to anybody who will listen. While lining the wallet with the green bills.
The staff actually getting poorer, trying to still fix shoddily maintained aircraft by 3 rd party maintenance.
Breakdowns increasing exponentially with duration of dispute, can't be sunnies engineering fault as we rarely carry out work except for the breakdowns.
Hire another contract manager (my mistake hire a supervisor from outside the company) to look after those disgruntled trouble making engineers on a nightly basis. Why? Because nobody in house wanted to do the job because you aren't allowed too - unless you toe the DD,SH line. i.e. try to do something with nothing.
Seems still appropriate to spend 1000 times actual pay rise asked for (approx $1000 per year) for the average engineer to not give in.
Send out bull :mad: emails to all and sundry extolling their willingness to negotiate terms, when they themselves receive extensive bonus's for adding millions to the budget.

Basic respect for the worker has dissipated, that is if they had any in the first place which I doubt.
And that is the good news.

[LAME2]

Has their been any recent meetings between the Managers and Association?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just some phone discussions. The last three meetings have gone like this -

"Will you give them their backpay"

"No"

"Goodbye then.

[Bigdog01]

here thru the grapevine pushback training been held after midnight approx 0100 by QLink. Can't be for current staff as they have gone home @ midnight as per roster.

training for WHO and WHY ???????????????????
Just another sleezy attempt to circumvent the EBA

[Barry Mundy]

Alliance??????

[LAME2]

midnight training

Bigdog, take a camera to the carpark. That should help with the identities.

[Bumpfoh]

:yuk::=

Seems still appropriate to spend 1000 times actual pay rise asked for (approx $1000 per year) for the average engineer to not give in.

And this bigdog is the most galling aspect of the whole situation WRT to QF management as a whole in handling EB nogotiations.

STF they would have taken something away and learned from the wasted $150M from the last QF EB debacle and applied some due diligence to this situation but NO lets waste some more of the share holders money fighting these pesky engineers just to show who has the biggest willy.
And when this "negotiation" has finally cocnluded we will all be reminded ad-nauseum what the engineers dispute "cost" the company blah blah blah.:yuk:


Note to Sunsatate and QF engineering/executive management,

you have well and truly pissed off the entire Australian Aircraft Maintenance Engineer fraternity with your contemptuous actions, regardless of employer, Licensed or not, ALAEA member or not! :ugh:

[B.U.F.F.]

Management hiring new supervisor's to supervise fewer workers.
I believe numbers have dropped by 11 people.
Heard through the grapevine recent aircraft had fuel leak around hot end due chaffed pipe. Aren't there inspection periods for this area - if not, should be.

No further movement as far as pays etc ?
If as all seem to be a 3 year deal, they are now rapidly approaching the 2 year overdue mark. Maybe you should just wait 3 years double the demand and move on.

[Short_Circuit]

Any updates of late?

[Arnold E]

Just some phone discussions. The last three meetings have gone like this -

"Will you give them their backpay"

"No"

"Goodbye then.

Soooo, then what??

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Soooo, then what??

Well, the company are spending squillions of bucks to win this extremely important battle. If they can deliver only a portion of the back pay to the 20 members, they may save $2000-$3000 dollars per employee or $60,000 dollars.

I wonder how long it will take for them to realise that spending hundreds of thousands of dollars each week on the contingiency plans (outsourced maint to Cairns, CASA investigations due to botched maint and Alliance flying services they can't meet) far exceeds the ultimate prize ($60,000).

The longer it lasts the more they lose. One day a manager will wake up and realise this, until then, enjoy the show.

[MELKBQF]

Anyone know how the QLink Dash 8 outside the John Holland hangars in MEL ended up off the apron and into the mud?:eek:

[Kiwiconehead]

Anyone know how the QLink Dash 8 outside the John Holland hangars in MEL ended up off the apron and into the mud?

Whoops!

Classic or Q400

Could guess, but will wait for the real story. Think Aerocare actually tow for them now.

[Going Nowhere]

Q400. Buried balls, I mean axle deep in the muck.

Looks like no one was watching where they were towing! :ugh:

Stand by for the 20 page memo to all about correct towing practices... :suspect:

[Bigdog01]

Good thing it didn't happen in brisvegas - somebody would have been hung, drawn and quarted for not following procedures.

result outcome now - slap on the wrist and an all points bulletin to everyone due to stupid mistake. Explaining company towing procedures. Also highlight the need for extremity walkers (which is already in company procedures).

4 people required to push and pull aircraft around on tarmac, oops there goes the budget !

[L Riding hood]

Well done Q-link managers keep spending shearholders money:=
Well Done third party contractor :D
1. bogging an aircraft
2. not adjusting FLT control cable tension to spec
3. not carrying out adequate inspection of engine fuel line almost result in engine fire
4. over torque of several prop blades so engine fails to come out of feather etc
5. aircraft spends more time on ground than in the air after coming out of third party heavy
Need I go no?
All of which have been sweep under the rag to save face for their botch decision to out source. Unfortunately they are trying to show who is boss Instead of trying to resolve the current issue in house :ugh:

[BOBO THE CLOWN 23]

I would of thought sunstate would jump on the stop work meetings with qantas mainline guys?

[Bigdog01]

QLink manager seen sculking around another operator on airport.
Could he be trying to find a life preserver before the ship he was in charge of gets scuttled.

[LAME2]

Thanks for the update Bigdog. You are not forgotten. Keep us updated so we know where the clowns are heading next.

[Bigdog01]

Managers firing from the hip, jumping to conclusions.
Most haven't done this much exercise in years.
Walking to notice boards pulling them down, only to find them back up 5 mins later.
Haven't had such a good laugh for awhile now.

Can't wait for the wobbles to set in.

[Bigdog01]

Ho Hum another retired Q manager to look after the uncooperative ones ( those that are left) at Qlink.
2 years on and no closer to resolution.
Dayshift scabs proving to be money well spent making more F--k ups, will get another email telling us to follow the manuals and to pay due diligence when carrying out duplicate inspections - basic skills bit lacking must be too busy counting the money going into the bank for being useless.
Asked to leave due incompetence so now rewarded for same.

Aircraft very tired, breaking all the time.

[Isamu Pahoa]

It must be hard for an ex manager - contract supervisor - supervising contractors - who is contracting to three different companies on Bne airport! The poor guy is so busy raking it in whilst he can, surely he can be cut some slack for making multiple F#@K ups when he is working sooo hard. What a great gig. It seams the more mistakes he makes, the more money they pay him?? Oh of course, he was hired by DD. The hat fits..(the one with the pom pom).
Gee you guys have a short memory,.......he was sooo forgiving when he was casting judgment on night shift when walking into work at 10am each morning as a manager.

Well at least he is proving why he so badly wants to be a manager....just like those before and after.......they are just not up to being a LAME!

I hope this stupid mess is over soon..the good Lame's at Sunstate deserve it.:*

[the_company_spy]

The Buggary campaign continues through all parts of the Qantas Group.

[Bigdog01]

Qantas have offered VRD packages to all 7000 cabin crew staff, obviously the full time ones. nine MSN this morning.
Still trying to find the rats credit cards, fly for free who do they think they are a Qantas exec ?
Pretty soon Qantas employees will be the 9 EXECS and 37000 casuals !!!!!!!!!!

[Bigdog01]

Not a bad gig - hardly ever finish's a job, gets to the end needs functional - hand over to permanent staff. They find a problem, they then fix problem or leave for next day.
Come in on exorbitant fee, fix what should have been done yesterday, count the money.
Sit through investigation - count the money.
Complain manuals are ambiguous, although the manuals have been used by LAME's for last 10 years at least - with no problem if you have engineering skills.
Keep options open front up elsewhere - count the money.

Only people to be held accountable are the permanent staff.
Good thing the company has such quality people to fall back on, rather than pay the permanent staff a decent wage.

[Arnold E]

What is VRD????

[L Riding hood]

Voluntary redundancy

[Arnold E]

To 7000 people?? you have to be kidding ( dont you? )

[Bigdog01]

Offered to 7000 but I believe they only want to get rid off 400.
Probably gauging response ?
Then form a committee to analyze WHY so many respondents.

[Arnold E]

Offered to 7000 but I believe they only want to get rid off 400.This is clearly rubbish, this is a "game"
Geez, how I regret getting my son involved in this stinking bussiness.:{

[Bigdog01]

Geez, how I regret getting my son involved in this stinking business.
Arnold :
Both mine started in aviation and both left, saw writing on the wall "Get out now"
Both started second apprenticeship outside aviation, both now doing very well.
Oldest (27) now basically Q'ld manager of company he joined 9 months ago - rewarded for having a brain and using it.
Youngest just finished apprenticeship, now tradesman in first job pay $3 per hr short of old man in aviation. Earning approx $11 more per hr than an AME at Q.
Would have to wait approx 4 to 6 years to match current starting wage in aviation.
If willing could go to mines with current trade and earn Q level 13 tomorrow but has chosen not to until experience levels up a bit further.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Quote:
Offered to 7000 but I believe they only want to get rid off 400.
This is clearly rubbish, this is a "game"

..Just like the announcement a month or two back that 400(?) managers were to go. Simply, it is yet another PR exercise at painting a bleak picture to the general public so as to soften the blow of outsourcing maintenance and tech crew, the very people who have been maintaining the outstanding safety reputation of "the business".

Two managers in my area got the chop. One has been found an alternative position meaning he will no longer be leaving. The other, I believe, has been offered a promotion one rung up the ladder, albeit, in a different state.

You will read about the need to axe "400 managers" in the media.... you will never see a story that states the truth that they were not really axed, but moved sideways.

[Short_Circuit]

Qantas to get rid of 400 cabin crew?

You bet they will, it is just a game they will play with peoples lives just to scare monger the troops and get joe public on side.

The buggery campaign takes another scalp (or 400) :mad:

[B.U.F.F.]

Noticed a gathering of sunnies engineers at DFO Brisbane.
I believe it was to farewell another long time employee.
How many have left now - last count was 11 or approx 1/3 of the permanent staff just 12 months ago.

Any updates on the dispute there or has Q now got bigger fish to fry namely engineer's and pilots.
It would appear from the outside looking in that the managers at Qlink have lost it, they have no idea how to or are unwilling to deal with the issues. Which from the sound of it are many and varied.

[Isamu Pahoa]

That would be an massive understatement that the local managers are incapable of dealing with normal day to day issues involving an airline.....add to that 15-20 years of employee frustration (caused by the same managers) and you end up with a massive sh#t fight which has no winners. The managers should be,.. min sacked without any financial gain for letting this develop into what it is now....:ugh:

They had a business that was just ticking along before the demise of Ansett, thus no Flight West to compete and were handed the whole of QLD to rape for the next ten years. The company rapid growth was never due to their great management....no surprise they could not handle it.

[old_mate]

Steve Miller Band said it all gents

"Go on, take the money and run"

[DasTrash]

From our fearless leader Narenrda Kumar:
QantasLink announced today that it will be making some changes to its scheduled overnight Maintenance Operations performed on Dash 8 aircraft at its Brisbane base. Until recently QantasLink utilised up to three Dash 8 maintenance bays in the Brisbane Qantas Engineering Hangar 2 facility, while Qantas utilised the remainder for B737 maintenance. From July 2011 Qantas Engineering will require the majority of the Hangar 2 parking space to meet the growth of their fleet and it will subsequently no longer be available for QantasLink scheduled maintenance. In addition, the QantasLink Dash 8 fleet is scheduled to grow significantly over the next 5 years due to customer demand into and out of regional and mining locations. This growth has the potential to increase its Q400 fleet including its operations in Queensland. In light of this, QantasLink conducted a detailed review of our Dash 8 fleet maintenance requirements across the Australia wide operation along with the impact of losing access to the Brisbane Hangar 2 facility. The review considered all options, including the construction of a new hangar, the lease or purchase of an existing hangar and the distribution of scheduled maintenance to CASA approved locations other than Brisbane. The review has now been completed and in order to meet our maintenance needs, QantasLink will introduce a distributed maintenance model including two 3rd party CASA approved Queensland locations (CNS and TSV) and increase utilisation of our new hangar facilities in Canberra. By leveraging external suppliers in CNS and TSV, combined with utilisation of QantasLink Hangar facilities in Canberra, we will have the flexibility and scalability of maintenance supply that we require to meet our growing operational needs. Brisbane will continue to conduct essential daytime line maintenance activities (including transit, ramp service checks and defect rectification where required).
Line maintenance coverage in Brisbane will be provided from 5.30am to 12 midnight, ensuring that some maintenance work can be performed at night to ensure that aircraft are ready for the first flight out the next day. However, scheduled overnight maintenance, including major component replacements will no longer take place in Brisbane. QantasLink maintenance activities conducted in Sydney, Canberra, Adelaide and Cairns are not affected by the planned changes. A number of LAME positions in Brisbane will be impacted by this decision. However the majority of QantasLink employees, including many Line Maintenance employees, will not be affected by this change. This change does not form part of the recent management redundancy program. We are committed to maintaining business as usual and supporting our people through this process. Please contact your manager if you have any questions. Narendra Kumar, Executive Manager Qantas Regional Airlines Group

[Kiwiconehead]

So they strike again, why didn't the pricks just offer redundancies to the Sunnies guys in the first place instead of embarking on 18 months of bastardisation.

Good luck to those who move on, you'll be much happier out of the "family", I know I was.

Just remember that the selection process will be personal and won't take into account any value you offer the company, but you get the check and get to move onwards and upwards, they stay in the place.

Don't know how they are going to leverage the Canberra hanger, I thought they still couldn't enough people to go there?

[BrissySparkyCoit]

So they strike again, why didn't the pricks just offer redundancies to the Sunnies guys in the first place

Simple answer. Reduced requirement for redundancy payouts as many staff left by their own choice.

[Sunfish]

Feel the love and trust.

[Bigdog01]

Easiest way to win get rid of them.
Expression of interest form to leave - submitted !!!!!!!!

10 LAME's to cover Brisbane day of operations good luck !!!!

[1746]

Welcome to "ENGAGEMENT" QANTAS style!

[B.U.F.F.]

Really big spiel to say the following.

"And then there were none"

Except for the chosen few.
10 LAME to cover how many movements per day ?
What sort of shift ?
Will these guys have help as in AME's ?
Plus more aircraft coming :confused:

[LAME2]

Buggery continues.

FEDSEC, please ensure those taking the package recieve thier entitlements without any hassles. Don't want another QF style, yes and then no situation.

[Arnold E]

Can anybody here give a short run down of what has happened since this incident first came to light and what is the current situation for those concerned.:confused:

[Bigdog01]

Arnold E
basic rundown.
EBA starts - log of claims ( old expired 30/6/2009)
5% increase per year for the 3 year EA and 6 weeks holidays for the permanent night shift.
Company offer back
3% per year plus 1.3% extra for 1 st year only.
Bond for any type course eg. Dash Q400 $12,000 , any new type ? to be determined by them.
and no to extra rec leave
We said NO 97% against
start of limited idustrial action
no O/T and no fly aways for breakdowns
Company started fines for each refusal 4 hours pay for each so called infringement.
Withdrew under the agreement for extended hours night shift roster, left extended hours for dayshift crews 4 on 4 off.
company started 7.6 hour shift roster more fines for alleged infringements
3 rd party maintenance set up, rushed thru Qlink hanger Canberra ( ex QDS).
still no real discussions over EBA
withdrew from all extended hours rosters all on 7.6 hour shifts.
Discovered , reported and ignored about cockpit door security locks.
reported doors to CASA - nothing but met requirements and we do not get involved in industrial action.
wrote up defective door locks
suspension of 6 LAME's more fines
tried negotiating new roster and accepted pay rise offered still waiting for bond wording.
back pay offer removed while shift negotiations still going
shift sorted - back pay back on the table - company NO you only get a percentage.
Shift removed
no further real negotiations
11 guys resign or retire.
redudancy packages offered 21/6
redundancy's accepted 8/7
10 LAME's left 20/7 all others gone 19/7/2011
pay rise and back pay still to be worked out for those remaining
so basically cut 32 LAMES to 10, unable to carry out maintenance in Brisbane turnaround port only ( currently between 80 to 90 per day)
more aircraft coming.
Basically one big **** fight no real winners but QLink screwed up very efficient maintenance base for approx $1000 per person per year

[Arnold E]

Thanks for that review Bigdog it gives me a bit more of an idea what went on. Can you tell me if the 6 guys that were suspended are amongst the 10 left, or have they gone. It is a very sad state of affairs where our industry is headed, is it not:{

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

4 of the 6 will still be there, living the dream, the other 2 have had enough.

[Bigdog01]

Will soon find out what is happening outside the Qantas world.
Maybe a little different but the heir achy at Q seem determined to load everything and everyone into the bowl. At some point the chain will be pulled and the problems will be gone.
Fed Sec
Thanks for all your time but I think you got ambushed on this one.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

It's far easier for Qantas to pick on the little guy. That's the kind of people running the place. Don't think that all has been in vein, this race has a fair way to run yet.

The managers told us they would shut the place down if the dispute went for too long. I hope they have their houses in their wives names. The words were illegal and we have already landed the first adverse action strike against the Qantas group.

Fines and damages are payable to employees and former employees.

[B.U.F.F.]

I know a lot of people read this and it would appear that the company has a very clear agenda. Reduce its own staff whilst expanding. Utilize 3rd party maintenance and other operators to enable the expansion.
I have seen the increase in Aliance's fokker operations grow on Qlink routes and yet capacity up the coast reduce due to removing Q400 and replacing with 300 series (50seat) why ?
Maybe this is to allow maintenance in 3 rd party in Townsville from what I hear.

Didn't sunnies have a base in Townsville and they shut it, yet here they are sending aircraft there for maintenance.
Exactly how many people are left in Brisbane, I see from the post there are only 10 LAME's.

[Going Nowhere]

Correct, 2 days per week -300's operate in the afternoon. Also just about all the weekend services are 300's.

The Fokker's are apparently full on just about all the services they operate to ROK/MKY.

It won't be long until the F100's do ALL of the ROK/MKY flights.
Q400's will just be used to up capacity to all the other ports. ie: Roma, Longreach, etc.

And apparently none of the remaining staff in BNE will be authorized to Taxi the Q400.

Should be fun! :ugh:

[L Riding hood]

I am sure nepotism will come to the rescue and a particular son will get a taxi approval indorsed by dad and save the day http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gif

[b55]

Today is the last day for the Sunnie's engineers that have been made "redundant".

I wish them all the very best where ever they may go. I was always confident with the a/c maintenance and impressed with the dedication, commitment to get the job done and most importantly, the great quality of work done. I know if you guys go onto other jobs that those companies will be getting the very best of engineers in this country.

QantasLink, however, is a much "poorer" airline going into its future.

[Jethro Gibbs]

What did the ALAEA win here ? anything ?

[Longbow25]

Still waiting I bet.

[B.U.F.F.]

What is happening now that the redundancies have been done and dusted ?
Have they sorted the EA for those that stayed ?
Is it true that they still have the contractors when it was deemed that the extra licenses weren't required. Are the contractors there full time or only as required.

[Arnold E]

What did the ALAEA win here ? anything ? Jethro, to be honest, I have to ask the same question.:confused:
Care to comment Steve? What has been accomplished? I dont know, but am willing to listen either here or pm.

[Managers Perspective]

I don't think anyone wins in these situations.

The company would have spent a **** load of money on a principle, and the guys and their union would have been similarly burnt by this whole episode.

For a broad range of reasons, and poor advice from both sides, a group of good engineers will now be out of employment.

How can anyone be called a winner in any of this?

MP

[Arnold E]

Managers Perspective

So do you think you have done a good job? Do you think you have earned your money? Who wins here??

[600ft-lb]

I don't think anyone wins in these situations.

The company would have spent a **** load of money on a principle, and the guys and their union would have been similarly burnt by this whole episode.

For a broad range of reasons, and poor advice from both sides, a group of good engineers will now be out of employment.

How can anyone be called a winner in any of this?

MP As far as I know the court case regarding behavior by some is not over yet.

The engineers were obviously considered not good otherwise they wouldn't of been treated like they were scum.

Some quit after being fed up with being treated like a piece of dirt, others held out for redundancy.

There is lies the point where you mention the company spent a ****load of money on priciple. They spent more, a lot more money on principle then it would've cost them just to pay a reasonable pay rise in line with inflation. Qantas LAME EBA 8 was exactly the same, over $100million was spent to save $5million in pay rises.

Just because they tell you, mr manager, that its imperative that the ALAEA or AIPA be broken at all costs for the good of the group, it doesn't mean they are telling you the truth.

Milgram experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment)

Have a read. You are, what is in this experiement, a 'teacher'.
I set up a simple experiment at Yale University to test how much pain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain) an ordinary citizen would inflict on another person simply because he was ordered to by an experimental scientist. Stark authority was pitted against the subjects' [participants'] strongest moral imperatives against hurting others, and, with the subjects' [participants'] ears ringing with the screams of the victims, authority won more often than not. It's a very interesting experiment documenting human behavior. If you are a Qantas manager, can you say you are not just following your human instinct in pleasing authority regardless of how it effects others ?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

What did the ALAEA win here ? anything ?

It's not even decided yet. A bunch of guys have left who wanted to go. The ones who have stayed have just told management to get lost today over a new roster they needed to run the place.

There are court cases happening that could see the company fined millions of dollars for illegal activity and as all this is going on, Qantas have lost bucket loads in contingiency plans.

They could have settled this for less than $50,000. How much more will they waste? Who knows, the blokes could get everything they want if Joyce and Oldmeadow get booted.

[Arnold E]

There is lies the point where you mention the company spent a ****load of money on priciple. They spent more, a lot more money on principle then it would've cost them just to pay a reasonable pay rise in line with inflation. Qantas LAME EBA 8 was exactly the same, over $100million was spent to save $5million in pay rises.

Can someone here please explain why the rank and file are not jumping up and down about this????

[Arnold E]

A bunch of guys have left who wanted to go.Steve, I dont understand what's going on here, why is the union supporting guys that want to leave the industry and thereby the union, what goes on here???