Another helicopter down in the Mourne Mountains

[spreckley]

police helicopter involved in the operation came down this morning. NI ambulance service say -
The Northern Ireland A
NIAS attending another helicopter crash in Mournes
The Northern Ireland Ambulance Service has been alerted of a helicopter crash in the Mourne Mountains close to the scene of last Saturdays fatal incident.
First reports indicate that 4 passengers were on board and that three may be seriously injured with the other relatively unharmed.
Crews are starting to arrive at the scene.
NIAS has deployed 4 A&E vehicles, 1 Rapid Response Vehicle, 3 Officers and 1 Doctor.

came down near Hilltown a couple of miles from Saturdays crash

[Chopper Doc]

I've just heard that a Police helicopter has gone down in the Mourne Mountains this morning. My source says it was a twin squirrel but I have no more news than that at present.

[mr.plow]

just heard on RTE radio one a sketchy report of another heli down in the mourne mts?

hopefully a mix up.

[Lewycasino]

BBC News - PSNI helicopter crashes in the Mourne mountains (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11644029)

Emergency services are on their way to Hilltown, County Down after receiving a report that a police helicopter has crashed.
It is believed four people are on board.
The helicopter was on lease to the PSNI.
It is understood the accident happened close to where a private helicopter crashed at the weekend killing three people.
On Saturday, three people were killed in a helicopter crash in the Mourne Mountains in an area known locally as Leitrim Lodge, between Hilltown and Rostrevor.
Charles Stisted, Ian Wooldridge and their pilot, who has not yet been named, died when the aircraft crashed.
The men were travelling back to England from County Tyrone, where they were part of a private shooting party at Baronscourt country estate.
Mr Stisted, 47, was chief executive of the Guards Polo Club at Windsor and a personal friend of the Prince of Wales.
Mr Wooldridge, from Windlesham, Surrey, was also a member of the Guards Polo Club.
Together with his brother Graham, he ran a £40m-a-year demolition and construction company.
Mr Wooldridge was a prominent figure in Dublin-based Harcourt Developments, the property company involved in the development of the Titanic Quarter in Belfast.

[connoisseur]

BBC News - PSNI helicopter crashes in the Mourne mountains (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11644029)

Four people have been injured after a police helicopter crashed in the Mourne mountains.
The accident happened close to the scene of last weekend's fatal helicopter crash.
The helicopter was in the area on Thursday as part of a police clearance operation in connection with Saturday's crash. It had just taken off when it overturned.
The four people on board were able to walk away from the wreckage.
Emergency services are at the scene in Hilltown, County Down.
They are not believed to be seriously injured but are being taken to hospital for treatment.
Local DUP MLA Jim Wells was in the area when the crash happened.
"The conditions in the Mournes are extremely bad," he said.
"It's misty, the cloud is down to 600ft and the rain is very heavy so I can understand how something like this could happen."
The Air Accident Investigation Branch has been informed. The helicopter was on lease to the PSNI.
On Saturday, three people were killed in a helicopter crash in the Mourne Mountains in an area known locally as Leitrim Lodge, between Hilltown and Rostrevor.
Charles Stisted, Ian Wooldridge and their pilot, who has not yet been named, died when the aircraft crashed.
The men were travelling back to England from County Tyrone, where they were part of a private shooting party at Baronscourt country estate.
Mr Stisted, 47, was chief executive of the Guards Polo Club at Windsor and a personal friend of the Prince of Wales.
Mr Wooldridge, from Windlesham, Surrey, was also a member of the Guards Polo Club.
Together with his brother Graham, he ran a £40m-a-year demolition and construction company.
Mr Wooldridge was a prominent figure in Dublin-based Harcourt Developments, the property company involved in the development of the Titanic Quarter in Belfast.

[spreckley]

press associaton say injuries not as serious as first thought

Four police personnel were injured today when a helicopter overturned as it
took off from the scene of last week's fatal helicopter crash in Northern
Ireland.
Police said all four were able to walk away from the accident on the Mourne
Mountains and were not seriously injured. They have been taken to hospital for
treatment.
The Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) helicopter was involved in the
clear-up operation following Saturday's crash, which claimed the lives of three
people, one of them a close friend of Prince Charles.
mfl

[dontdoit]

Glad no-one seriously injured or worse still, killed. Obvious Darwin awards candidate though.

[Whirlygig]

Obvious Darwin awards candidate though.Why's that then?

Cheers

Whirls

[Chopper Doc]

Glad to hear everyone is ok. On the plus side one less police helicopter that needs to be sold off.

[Fortyodd2]

Chopper Doc,
PSNI were not included in the "Grand Plan". There are no "Savings" where an accident is involved.

Dontdoit - "Darwin award candidate" because???

[Lewycasino]

I wonder if it was G-PSNI or PSNO

Neither. I know which aircraft it was, if permitted I will post the registration.

[Helinut]

PSNI have been leasing in an old police aircraft. It might be that one. I believe the EC135 and EC145 are owned by PSNI, not leased.

[Cows getting bigger]

There is a third aircraft (Squirrel) also in the Province right now.

[Helinut]

That is the one I was thinking of. Unless it has changed, it is an old Police Squirrel owned by a former police air operations provider.

[Francis Frogbound]

Helinut;

That was the aircraft.

FF

[rattle]

"Should it have been up there in the first place?

Looking at the 1000ft and 2000ft winds it's saying 35kt and 45kt respectively forecasted for the time.

Given the height of the mountains there being between 1&2K ft you might expect a strong downdraft on the leeward side where they were, no?"

An hour after the first report and somebody is already questioning the pilot's decisions. Give us a break.

[fisbangwollop]

Just off the BBC web...."Local DUP MLA Jim Wells was in the area when the crash happened.

"The conditions in the Mournes are extremely bad," he said.

"It's misty, the cloud is down to 600ft and the rain is very heavy so I can understand how something like this could happen."

We all have out views but does not sound a great day to be Mountain flying especially as it was not on a mercy mission and no lives were at risk...." apart from the crew that is!!"

[dontdoit]

Darwin awards...Google it.....Chopper crashes. Police chopper turns up for the clean-up. And crashes. :ugh:

[Lewycasino]

Photograph of Aircraft G-SEWP (http://www.caa.co.uk/applicationmodules/ginfo/ginfo_photo.aspx?regmark=G-SEWP&imgname=G-SEWP002&imgtype=jpg)

[EI-tom]

So are we talking dynamic rollover here?? Doubt there would be any pax walking away from the scene had it overturned at 200/300ft

[timex]

Darwin awards...Google it.....Chopper crashes. Police chopper turns up for the clean-up. And crashes.

So if the CAA or AAIB have asked for photo's to be taken from the air and on the ground the guys don't go? Do you know why they were there?

[fisbangwollop]

So if the CAA or AAIB have asked for photo's to be taken from the air and on the ground the guys don't go?

If the conditions are not good...why would you take the risk??

[Cows getting bigger]

Hey fishy, why don't you stop building the gallows for a moment and look at the actual weather conditions in the area at/about time of crash?

METAR EGAC 280820Z 19009KT 9999 FEW012 09/06 Q1007
METAR EGAC 280850Z 20008KT 9999 FEW012 09/07 Q1007
METAR EGAC 280920Z 20009KT 9999 FEW012 09/07 Q1007
METAR EGAC 280950Z 20010KT 9999 FEW012 10/07 Q1006
METAR EGAC 281020Z 19010KT 9999 -SHRA FEW014 SCT046 10/08 Q1006


METAR EGAA 280820Z 19010KT CAVOK 07/06 Q1007
METAR EGAA 280850Z 19008KT CAVOK 08/07 Q1007
METAR EGAA 280920Z 19010KT 9999 FEW018 08/07 Q1006
METAR EGAA 280950Z 19011KT 9999 -DZ FEW015 09/07 Q1006
METAR EGAA 281020Z 19008KT 9999 -SHRA FEW015 SCT031 09/07 Q1006

[ShyTorque]

Oh dear, the dreaded 11kt wind. :ooh:

[Whirlygig]

Darwin awards...Google it.....Chopper crashes. Police chopper turns up for the clean-up. And crashes. :ugh:
I, and others here, are fully aware of what the Darwin Awards are, thank you. What we are not fully aware of, and neither are you, are the circumstances surrounding the accident. So would you please share with us why you think the police helicopter, and its pilot and crew are said award candidates?

Cheers

Whirls

[fisbangwollop]

Cows....what does the AA or AC METAR have to do with the weather at the crash site!!! Did you not see my earlier post about the actual weather at the crash site!!

Would you check the PF weather before going to Oban????

[Hummingfrog]

Hi PF

You can get disturbances a surprising distance downwind from hills/mountains it all depends on the topography and windspeed. While they may not be enough to cause upsets they can make for an uncomfortable ride.

Nearer the mountains they can be very nasty indeed. My first experience of that was in fact low flying in a Jet Provost 5 in Scotland where we ran through a downdraft which gave -6g and only the "top latch" of the ejector seat stopped us being ejected. In a subsequent existence on SAR at Lossiemouth we were very aware of how the mountains can and will bite - it was a matter of pride to get through a mountain flying sortie on the up draughts rather than down draughts. You became very adept at picking the right route. If you didn't the rearcrew would always have strong advice to give you:ok:.

As far as looking at airfield data as how the weather is in the hills it is a waste of time. Orographic effects can modify the weather alarmingly - be it pulling down the cloudbase or funnelling the wind down the valleys.

We always used to fire smoke before landing in the hills and the patterns the smoke made often showed wind speed and direction different to what you may have supposed as well as some dramatic curl unders when fired onto a ridge line.

My advice is, unless you have been well trained and have recent experience, don’t go into the hills – especially at low level.

HF

[fisbangwollop]

It was actually 3 hours before the weather conditions were good enough to allow the RAF seaking to lift the 4 casualties off the hill........maybe that explains what the weather on scene was like!!!

[Cows getting bigger]

fishy, I can't be bothered. The weather over here was fine, if a little breezy, until late this morning - just as the METARS gave - with significant deterioration this afternoon. Indeed, I've just tried to take the dog for a walk up Butter Mountain and he refused :) . Interestingly, the weather on Saturday afternoon most certainly wasn't as advertised with lowish stratus cloud (1200-1600ft), additional cloud/fog forming on the windward side of hills and moderate rain dominating the whole area. Then again, another local politician said on Saturday that the weather was absolutely fine. :rolleyes:

[SilsoeSid]

fishbangwallop;
Did you not see my earlier post about the actual weather at the crash site!!

The 'earlier post';
"It's misty, the cloud is down to 600ft and the rain is very heavy so I can understand how something like this could happen."

fishy, I may well have just polished off a bottle of Merlot, but I just cant see where your coming from.

So it was 600ft with 1000m+ vis and the ac was taking off! And.....?

Where did the RAF Sea King have to come from and where was it going to 'let down' once it arrived on scene?
Certainly not in the mountains with a 600ft cloud base!
Perhaps that's the real reason why it had to wait 3 hours!

[fisbangwollop]

Silsoe........the point I was making was the weather was not great for doing the task at hand!!!:}

[SilsoeSid]

And just what was that task?

[Pink Panther]

R 116 out of Dublin arrived at 10:30 z approx half an hour after the incident. Weather on scence at that time was not good. The first rescue party was dropped off by R 116 approx 30 minutes walk in time from the crash site and wx continued to get worse. Second drop of rescue personel had to be made lower down the mountain. I'm not aware what the weather was doing at the time of the accident.

UTV News - Helicopter crash victims 'lucky to be live' (http://www.u.tv/News/Helicopter-crash-victims-lucky-to-be-live/94f23143-e32a-4906-a444-ab3b0eac7831)

Members of a police air crew who escaped major injury when their helicopter flipped upside down on landing are lucky to be alive, a senior officer says.The two PSNI officers, a mapper and the pilot were assisting the air accident investigation into the fatal helicopter crash on Saturday at the summit of Shanlieve, Co Down, which claimed the lives of three men returning from a shooting trip.
Assistant Chief Constable Alistair Finlay said: "There aren't many helicopter crashes that people walk out of and this has been one and we're very, very grateful"
The Irish coastguard was part of a huge team of emergency workers who arrived at the scene to try and rescue the four men after the police helicopter overturned as it was landing.
Mr Finlay told UTV: "There were people on the hill immediately able to render assistance. We had equipment on the hill. That has made all the difference. If we had to start from scratch it would have taken sometime to get there"
The accident happened just before 11am on Thursday morning but the atrocious weather conditions in the Mournes meant it took some time to airlift the men, who suffered relatively minor injuries, to hospital.
Emergency and Medical teams and the Fire and Rescue service were also called in to help with this difficult operation.
All the occupants managed to stumble out of the helicopter.
The cause of the accident is being examined by the Air Accidents Investigation Branch of the Department for Transport.
On Saturday, three people were killed when a helicopter crashed into the same mountain side, in an area known locally as Leitrim Lodge, between Hilltown and Rostrevor.
Charles Stisted, Ian Wooldridge and their pilot, who has yet to be named, died in the incident.
They were flying back to England after taking part in a shooting hunt at Baronscourt country estate in Co Tyrone.
Mr Stisted, a friend of the Prince of Wales, and Mr Wooldridge were both members of the exclusive Guards Polo Club at Windsor.
South Down MLA Jim Wells, who was close to the scene at the time of Thursday's crash said that the difficult terrain of the Mournes probably played a part in what happened.
"The community in the area were deeply shocked at the tragic accident which occurred over the weekend and today's incident demonstrates the dangers which can be associated with this mode of transport", he said.
"It would seem that difficult conditions in the Mournes may have played some role in the accident, and this also demonstrates the dedication of all the emergency and rescue services involved in the clear-up operation after the weekend".
SDLP South Down MP Margaret Ritchie said she was greatly relieved that there were no new fatalities.
"The Mournes is a dangerous place for low-level flying and helicopter operations in general and we must be grateful to those who are taking risks in the course of investigations of last week's tragedy in order to protect life and limb in the future", she said.

BBC News - Police helicopter injured airlifted from Mournes (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11644029)

[Bladecrack]

Glad no-one seriously injured or worse still, killed. Obvious Darwin awards candidate though.

One word - Knob...

Second,

SilsoeSid, you don't always have to have the last word on everything and other people are allowed their opinion...

I WAS in the area where the accident happened today and while the weather wasn't perfect it wasn't beyond police ops in my opinion. Wx was reasonable in the morning with low cloud hugging the hills in a lot of places, before getting worse in the afternoon. I think this accident was probably down to mountain ops rather than weather, and it could have happened anyone carrying out this type of mission in those conditions. Unlucky to have crashed, lucky to have walked away. I wish the crew a speedy recovery.

Edit: Conditions in around the crash site would have been poor with low cloud and mist, and this has since been confirmed by news footage, but the decision to operate there would have been a joint one made by the crew, and should have been within their operational limits.

BC

[SilsoeSid]

BC,
..while the weather wasn't perfect it wasn't beyond police ops in my opinion.

My point exactly.
:ok:

[Hummingfrog]

SS

while the weather wasn't perfect it wasn't beyond police ops in my opinion.

Out of interest what training and currency requirements do the police have for undertaking mountain flying?

HF

[SilsoeSid]

Those weren't my words for you to quote, however I do agree with them, as I do with bladecracks edit.


humingfrog;
Out of interest what training and currency requirements do the police have for undertaking mountain flying?



I hope this answers your question hf.
If I may refer to CAP 612

--------------------------

3 Line Training Sequences (Including Initial Line Training)
3.1 Introduction
Pilots undergoing line training may be totally unfamiliar with their new operating environment, or they may be experienced in a role and be simply undergoing type conversion. Training Captains should adapt the syllabus accordingly.
Pilots will have completed the following requirements before line training begins:
Approved conversion course including Operator Proficiency Check
Inclusion of aircraft type in the appropriate licence.
3.2 Ground Syllabus
The following subjects will be covered:

Landing sites
Heliport dimensions
Identification of sites
Landing and take-off techniques
Obstacle clearances
Sloping ground landings
Emergency area dimensions
Crash and rescue equipment
Lighting requirements
Aircraft operating weight

Overland operations
Nature of task
Standard routes
Global Positioning System (GPS, area navigation and
flight planning)
Map preparation and reading
Nature of terrain
Manoeuvring and limited power technique
Power assessment
Diversions, bad weather and safe routes
Let down aids and procedures
Weather minima and forecasting
Minimum heights
Position reporting
Radio and nav procedures
Freight handling
Standard fuel loads and reserves
Autorotation techniques
Rescue organisation

Aircraft equipment
Radio and navaid installations
Emergency packs
Emergency locator beacons
Load configurations
Passenger handling including PA and visual signals
Crash procedure and evacuation
Cargo tie-downs
Particle separators
Aircraft blanks
Gust locks
Tie downs

Aircraft performance
Local climate and topography
Prediction of performance
Limitations of temperature and height
Relevance of avoid curve areas
FOD, dust and debris
Compressor washing
Power assurance procedures
Topping and acceleration checks

Practical instruction
Fuel testing
Air/ground distress signals
Fire, smoke and light signals
Survival techniques
Aircraft overnight security
Documentation
Calculating payloads/load sheets

For specialist roles, variations will be covered in the appropriate part of the Operations Manual.



Initial Line Training and Initial Line Check

The initial line training is carried out on a flight, with only CAA approved passengers. It is mainly concerned with the operational role including landing and take-off techniques and practice at sites which afford restricted access and space and with significant obstacles. The conduct of route flying which involves knowledge of topography is also essential and will include emergencies such as engine failure and autorotation. The instruction should include the following:

Departure from base
Standard take-off techniques
Conforming with track and altitude conventions
ATC liaison

En route
Use of radio, navaids and maps
Position reporting and Communications
Appreciation of weather and wind
CRM

Destination
Visual let down
Approach and landing techniques
Manoeuvring and obstacle clearance
ATC liaison
Take-off techniques
Limited power techniques
Confined area techniques
Fuel uplifts
Departure procedures

Return to base
Let down procedures including bad weather
Parking areas
Documentation and security


Part D (Training)

Police Operations

Pilots new to police operations will require Initial line training in the use of the aircraft for particular operations such as pursuits and surveillance, also in the operation of standard police role equipment such as thermal imaging/T.V. systems, searchlights and public address systems. This training shall be of not less than 3 hours duration of which not less than 1 hour shall be at night, this period may include the Initial Line Check. Line consolidation flying consisting of four sectors (normally of not less than 40 minutes in length), should then follow, the last of these sectors may constitute the
Final Line/Area Competency Check.

Pilots new to units with operating areas containing unfamiliar environments such as mountainous terrain, or airspace with complex ATC structures, shall require a period of line consolidation training prior to commencing operational flying at the unit, the nature and extent of the training will depend on the individual pilot's background and experience.

----------------------


Now if you would like to know specifics, you'll have to ask to see the Part 2's held by units such as PSNI, North Wales, Dyfed Powys & Strathclyde.
:ok:

[HeliChopter]

Originally Posted by dontdoit
Darwin awards...Google it.....Chopper crashes. Police chopper turns up for the clean-up. And crashes.

Is dontdoit living proof that Darwin didn't always get it right?:rolleyes:

[Hummingfrog]

SS

Thanks for that. As I thought fairly comprehensive training for the main role of surveillance and follow up to incidents.

I will now look out for the AAIB report to see what further lessons can be learnt from this and the incident before.

HF

[HelipadR22]

The concept behind the darwin awards is "Chlorinating the Gene Pool", therefore to be considered for an award you need to successfully remove yourself from the gene pool. This can either be done by simply dying or by rendering yourself unable to reproduce in a spectacularly ridiculous fashion.

Since everyone survived (And this next statement is purely an assumption) with their balls in tact, they would therefore not qualify for a Darwin award.

The bastardisation of this award in this fashion is in my opinion a travesty! :}

[SilsoeSid]

Sounds like hummingfrog has had an unsuccessful fishing trip and is on the way back to shore on his backpedalable pedalo.

[fisbangwollop]

SilsoeSid, you don't always have to have the last word on everything and other people are allowed their opinion...



Look's like your well known here Silsoe and it appears that your not going to dissapoint!! :cool:

[Hummingfrog]

SS

Why are there always people on here who seem to always have a negative view on what people post:ugh:. Along with meaningless additions to their remarks and is on the way back to shore on his backpedalable pedalo
Having flown helicopters for a few years now I am interested in how operations I have little direct knowledge of keep up their skill sets. Mountain flying is not a skill set you can be shown a couple of times and then left to get on with it without recurrent training/practise. It will bite you.

I am interested in how the civilian world of Air Ambulance and Police Aviation trains its pilots to operate, and keep current, in the Mountains.

There is always a chain of events which leads up to an accident. I have my own theories, which may be completely wrong, which is why I will wait for the AAIB report.

HF

[Macaco Norte]

HF

The simple answer to your 'reasonable' question is NONE, the majority of the guys there underwent the same mountain training as you did in your previous encarnation, and maintain their own skill levels.

[Helinut]

The pilot of the Twin Squirrel would probably have been provided by the outfit that leased the aircraft to PSNI, rather than the PSNI. It is quite likely that the Squirrel would have been operated under the PAOC of the aircraft owner. Adding a type to an existing PAOC (like an AOC) is non-trivial.

[brassmonkey]

Helinut, usual practice in most PASU's up until recently was to hire a loan a/c when main a/c was in for its annual inspection or off line for lengthy repairs. Typically this would be police role equipped Twin Squirrel, flown by the usual PASU pilots under the unit PAOC. In effect it would be business as usual for the boys, but just in a spare a/c.

Most PASU pilots I have ever known are ex RAF / RN / AAC / Bristows etc and are hugely experienced guys, well used to assessing and flying in highly challenging environments. That is why they get the jobs in the first place. We don't know what happened for sure yet, but the ill informed speculation found on here is pointless. As for the darwin awards comment I agree with bladecrack. :mad:

The most important thing here is that everyone got out ok.:D

[Helinut]

brassmonkey,

I am familiar with the situation you describe, although it is largely historical and related to those units who started with Squirrels and then moved onward and upward. It was only applicable to those units that held PAOCs that included the Squirrel. In fact, most of those units gave up doing that some while ago. It was costly in continuation training and currency atrophied. Also, the supply of police equipped Squirrels dried up. I may be wrong, but I believe that PSNI never operated Squirrels under their PAOC, and so probably do not have the AS355 on their PAOC. An ASU cannot operate a type unless they have it on their PAOC.

For a few years now it has been very difficult to get hold of police Squirrels because there was little demand. I think G-SEWP is/was one of the few available. Where Squirrels have been used, they need to be bought in with an associated PAOC and pilots. In these circumstances, the pilots may not be as experienced as you suggest. I was only mentioning this, as the post previous to mine implicitly assumed that the accident aircraft was flown by PSNI pilots, which might not be the case.

Undoubtedely, it is good news that no one seems to have been seriously injured.

I believe the AS355 was leased in addition to the PSNI machines in any case. So they would need extra pilots.

[Optic Nerve]

I'm told the second heli had members of AIB on board. Who will be doing the investigation of that one?

[Ethics Gradient]

I'm told the second heli had members of AIB on board

Think your source is a little off, from various press sources

It was carrying a pilot, photographer, observer and an officer from the police emergency team

all onboard either PSNI staff or helicopter crew.

[Windsor Loft]

I thought anyone flying under a PAOC (as a police pilot) regardless if it a PSNI pilot or a Veritair pilot had to have the minimum police requirement?


BBC News - Mournes helicopter crash site assessed (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11659656)

[Helinut]

WL,

Thanks for the link to the views of G-SEWP. The damage is pretty severe, for what might have been expected to be a slow speed accident (if you take notice of the sketchy information available). You can see the difference between the generations of helicopter if you compare the damage to the cabin of G-SEWP with the wreck of the Strathclyde police crash.

Just because something is written down does not mean that it necessarily gets complied with. For the avoidance of doubt, I am not referring to this particular case, but to the general principle.

[on21]

Link to AAIB report http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/AS355F2%20Twin%20Squirrel,%20G-SEWP%2006-11.pdf

Synopsis
The pilot lost control of the helicopter whilst manoeuvring at low speed to approach a hilltop landing site in quite strong wind conditions. It descended rapidly with increasing forward ground speed, before striking the ground short of the point of intended landing and passing through a substantial stone wall. The helicopter was destroyed but the occupants suffered only minor injuries. The investigation determined that an error of judgement or perception led the pilot to attempt a downwind approach. A combination of human factors was thought to have contributed to the accident.