Should we be afraid?

[TBM-Legend]

Defence Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro revealed plans for something of a revolution in the capability of Indonesia's military by buying 180 Sukhoi fighters by 2024, to join the 10 Su-30MKs and Su-27s already in service. An across-the-board rejuvenation of the force in the decades ahead would be one dividend from maintaining the current fast pace of economic growth, Mr Yusgiantoro said.:sad:

[herkman]

If their past record is anything to go by I would say that long term no threat.

The Air Force has a long history of poorly maintained fleets and Indonesian Air Force bases used to stocked with plenty of aircraft that would never fly again.

Secondly I would doubt if they could afford to buy, maintain and have parts support for them.

As for the pilots I would doubt if most could get the best out of them

regards

Col

[Wyler]

I spent 2 years with the Malaysians who are just up the road. Lots of different types, most in a poor state of repair and others just mothballed. Very few airworthy. I suspect the Indonesians will be the same.

[Pontius Navigator]

herkman, interesting take.

Many many years ago AURI 'moved' its bombers from around Djakarta and Surabaja well the east to Biak. Now we saw this as a defensive withdrawal away from us; we were based on your base at Butterworth.

Your Air Commander at Darwin, OTHO, saw it an an offensive deployment which would threaten Darwin. We didn't know this at the time. Not only that, he only found out by word of mouth when someone came through from Singapore.

At the time we replanned our missions to cover Biak and then recover to Darwin. For one reason or another Darwin was never told of this plan. It could have been in case they prepared to receive us thus blowing the opsec and we obviously didn't trust even Top Secret briefing to the Air Commander lest his actions were influenced by this knowledge.

Yes, we saw them as no real threat although they did seem to have a push towards one of our bombers with a Mig 21. They left the Hastings and Friendships that were doing leaflet drops on their own.

[Blacksheep]

Should we be afraid? Speaking from a UK point of view, No. Indonesia is no more capable of attacking the United Kingdom than Sadam Hussein was.

On the other hand, Indonesia does pose a threat to some of our friends and, in the case of Brunei in particular, there is a British Army garrison there as part of a defence treaty with the Bruneians. "Confrontation" began with the Indonesian inspired Brunei Revolt in 1962, so we should certainly pay attention.

[Q-RTF-X]

Secondly I would doubt if they could afford to buy, maintain and have parts support for them.

Given also that what little funds might be available for ongoing support would almost certainly be seriously "skimmed", further depleting any such procurement.

[Q-RTF-X]

I spent 2 years with the Malaysians who are just up the road. Lots of different types, most in a poor state of repair and others just mothballed. Very few airworthy. I suspect the Indonesians will be the same.

I would go as far as to suggest that the Malaysian AF is streets ahead of their Indonesian counterparts

[piggybank]

The above comments make for interesting reading.

Ref the move of the aircraft to Biak. The remains of the old wartime airfield at Biak was designed for heavily laden/underpowered bombers during WWII, very suitable for Russian products. It’s a good distance from Australia. If the fighters had been based at Merauke that would have been a different kettle of fish.

Surely the Indonesians see the Chinese to the north as a real threat. The Chinese government shows all the characteristics of a bully with its neighbours, and is spending ample funds on armaments. Viewed economically right now, China’s economy is growing at an enviable rate compared with Western countries. Internal unrest is increasing as people see hope for a better future through work and a strong economy.

Maybe the comparison with the pre-second war Japanese ‘Zaibatsu’ companies may not be quite correct, but China has a great need for natural resources, especially steel and oil. To maintain internal peace it will go to great lengths to assure continuity of supply of basic materials.

Noting China’s bullying attitude to its neighbours and immature political views; it must be viewed as a major threat to Indonesia and South East Asia in general.

There are several disputed areas in the South China Sea, more so as there are oil deposits in those areas. Why just grab that, when you have p*ssed off the other claimants by taking it over, you may as well just grab a bit more land and resources. There’s no one around that has the military strength and political will to do anything about it.

[Pontius Navigator]

piggyback, do you know anything else about Biak? I know it had 10 parallel runways and many were overgrown by 1964.

We understood that all 16 TU-16 had dispersed there. I susoect that the threat from the TU-16 was over rated as far as land attack as it was a maritime anti-shipping aircraft. Do you know if it was capable of bombing in AURI service?

Our intel said it would not be effective as they had not been noted to drop bombs. At that time we didn't drop any bobs either.

[Q-RTF-X]

piggybank

I have to agree with your thoughts re Chinese bullying in the region; I fear this will lead to trouble in the future, though perhaps not all out war. Quite a bit of sabre rattling would be more likely !

[piggybank]

Pontius, you know more than me.

I passed through Biak first time September 1975 clasping a four month old maintenance license. I saw only two parallel runways at that time. I went straight to the swamps so had no time to look around. After a few months I did a bit of ‘looking around’ but more for the old Japanese coral cave that apparently had 600 men trapped and burnt out with aviation fuel, but that is digressing.

At another airfield, at Tarakan I did see plenty of old Russian equipment, helicopters and old radar pushed into heaps in the areas to the side of the airstrip. Maybe the change in military power at that time meant no spares were coming in to do necessary maintenance.

Ref TU-16 I have no knowledge but do question your dates.

West Papua was annexed in 1969, so it would not have been Russian or Indonesian aircraft if your dates are accurate. I worked several times with Indonesians that had been trained in Russian military institutions and would answer that if the bombs could have been fitted, yes. The men at that time were a better tradesman than is available now to the Indonesian military. They were capable of thinking as an individual without asking outside opinion and quality of work was excellent.

[Pontius Navigator]

No definitely Nov 64, it was a target remember. Didn't have to have been Indonesian of course, they could have just gone there! Bit like Iraqi AF went to Iran.

[dctyke]

I'd be more afraid of giving 'overseas aid' to pay for the bloody things!;)

[Bushranger 71]

A bit of history that might be of interest.

When Confrontation with Indonesia emerged, Australia deployed reinforcements for Sabre elements to Butterworth and Singapore and sent an air defence detachment to Darwin. The Avon Sabre was of course a day interceptor armed with Sidewinder and 30mm cannon but only a gun-sight radar.

A bit later, we were directed to do night intercept training. The old GCI radar at Darwin would position the interceptor about 2NM line astern of the target - with accuracy sometimes plus or minus 2NM - and both aircraft lights out. The interceptor would then begin a gentle climb to co-altitude around 40,000 feet while softly pedalling rudder to get a Sidewinder acquisition tone. There was a match box size meter on the left hand side of the cockpit which gave missile ranging parameters so the idea was to close on the target using this indicator until in gun ranging radar proximity and then move in to identify the target. Just how we were supposed to get positive ID in inky blackness was never explained; maybe drop the landing gear to turn on the landing light and fall out of the sky! We had a couple of instances of calling 'lights on' and being near between red and green nav light halos, then bunting and going supersonic downhill into total darkness. Bloody scary and we soon convinced hierarchy too dangerous.

Some years later, a now deceased friend who became Air Attache at Jakarta was informed by an old Indonesian Air Force pilot over beers that he had seen the lights of Alice Springs from a Badger.

[racedo]

As much as people dismiss the idea that somehow the Indonesians could buy these, maintain them and have a viable air force I would caution people that money talks.

Just because they did something stupid in the past doesn't mean they will do so in the future.

Acquiring the technology is easy but given the state of military salaries around the world it wouldn't be that hard to persuade young "retired" experienced personnel to move to a sunny place with mega nice salaries and perks.

Its not as if members of NATO forces have not taken on assignments as "trainers" with Govt sanction with various militaries around the world often as an assistance to an arms deal.

[TEEEJ]

A few Indonesian Tu-16 crew images at the following.

Tu 16, Pesawat Pembom Jarak Jauh & Terbesar AURI | Bpn16's Blog (http://bpn16.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/tu-16-pesawat-pembom-jarak-jauh-terbesar-auri/)

Tu-16 in Indonesian museum.

Photos: Tupolev Tu-16 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Indonesia---Air/Tupolev-Tu-16/0919713/L/)

TJ

[Trojan1981]

Bushranger, what was the range of the gun ranging radar?

[TBM-Legend]

RACEDO is correct. Assuming that our Indon brothers can't do anything because of their tainted past is a wrong key assumption. One only has to look at the Korean War to see that "advisors" can change the battle from rag-tag to competent. At the end of that conflict we didn't win that one but rather a stalemate back where it started! Victory in a sense I suppose.

Sun Tzu is always right.....

[MTOW]

Of course, looking at the parlous state of much of the ADF's current high tech inventory, the reverse argument (that just because we used to be able to do it right in the past, we'll not necessarily always be able to do it right in the future) holds true too.

Food for thought...

[Pontius Navigator]

TEEJ, thank you for the links. This extract:

Not infrequently, they "play" until you reach a small island of the Andaman Islands in the Bay of Bengal which separates India and Myanmar.

is interesting as we used to do night navigation exercises around the Andaman Islands at that time.

Equally that they could operate from Medan only 160 miles from our base.

[TEEEJ]

No problem, PN.

TJ

[Pontius Navigator]

Bushranger, what was the range of the gun ranging radar?
Trojan, I found this:

Beginning with the first NA-161 aircraft (49-1007), the A-1B GBR sight and AN/APG-5C ranging radar were provided as factory-installed equipment. This new equipment was designed to automatically measure the range and automatically calculate the appropriate lead before the guns were fired, relieving the pilot of the cumbersome task of having to manually adjust an optical sight in order to determine the range to the target. When activated, the system automatically locked onto and tracked the target. The sight image determined by the A-1B was projected onto the armored glass of the windscreen, and the illumination of a radar target indicator light on the sight indicated time to track target continuously for one second before firing. This system could be used for rocket or bomb aiming as well as for guns.

In the last 24 F-86A-5-NAs that were built, the A-1B GPR sight and AN/APG-5C ranging radar were replaced by the A-1CM sight that was coupled with an AN/APG-30 radar scanner installed in the upper lip of the nose intake underneath a dark-colored dielectric covering. The APG-30 radar was a better unit than the AN/APG-5C, with a sweep range from 150 to 3000 yards. The A-1CM sight and the APG-30 ranging radar were both retrofitted to earlier A-5s during in-field modifications. These planes were redesignated F-86A-7-NA. However, some F-86A-5-NAs had the new A-1CM GBR sight combined with the older AN/APG-5C radar. These were redesignated F-86A-6-NA.

3000 yards seems quite reasonable.

[Bushranger 71]

Hello Trojan1981 and PN; now you are really testing me!

I will have to consult with some of my fossil colleagues - over beers of course - at the next fighter squadrons association luncheon but here is what I recall about the Sabre gun-sight and ranging radar.

The gun-sight could be operated in fixed (caged) mode, as was normal for air to ground weapons delivery, or uncaged when seeking to have the ranging radar lock onto a target for air to air stuff. The wingspan of a target was set manually in feet so when the target filled the reticle, you were at optimum firing range for weapons system harmonization.

For air to air practice gunnery, the tug was then another Sabre towing a banner which was attached via a quick release in a speed brake well. A long steel cable was then secured to a strong metal bar with asymmetric size steel wheels either end to make the banner fly upright. A radar reflector was fitted to this arrangement and a bright orange mesh banner attached with a centre black dot aiming point. Length of the banner escapes me but maybe around 30 feet.

The tug would fly straight and level with the attacking aircraft positioned on a perch about 2 miles abeam and maybe 2,000 feet higher, then roll in and point downhill toward the banner selecting radar ranging mode for the gun-sight and confirming lock on to the banner and not the tug. The pipper was the predicted impact point for the rounds with the attacking aircraft adjusting the curve of pursuit as IAS and 'G' increased seeking to have the pipper on the banner aiming point at optimum firing range. Cannot remember what that was either but one of the whips used to press in to around 400 feet as indicated by the banner filling a frame on his cine film! At about 450knots, not much time (micro-seconds) for a very brief squirt of cannon and rolling to avoid collision with the banner. Most of us perhaps fired at the banner from about 800 feet plus range and usually scored maybe half his number of hits. If the curve of pursuit was too slack and angle off too low, the big 30mm rounds would go close to the tug making a noise like an express train and rude words would be spoken!

In air to ground gunnery with the gun-sight in caged mode, the 'foul line' was I think 1,200 feet from the target by which you had to cease firing and point skywards to avoid collecting any ricochets.

Near 50 years ago now but it was all great fun.

[Wiley]

Perhaps it’s time for some levity. Bushranger 71, your post has made me search deep into my archives for a tale that just might have grown somewhat in the telling over the years, but the details I heard as a very young cadet aircrew one Friday afternoon at Point Cook from one of the Knuck instructors (I think it was Brick) way back when are pretty much as I recount them here.

AIRSHOW BLUES

The high point in some pilots’ lives is to perform at an airshow. The Australian public has always been very enthusiastic about airshows, but just how public perceptions of the Military have changed over the years might best be illustrated by my own recollections of the 1967 Laverton Airshow. One of the highlights was a Vampire dropping naplam onto a mock Vietnamese village. The official announcer waxed lyrical as the black smoke curled skywards and the mock huts burned - and the crowd just loved it. How that would have been received even three years later I hesitate to think.

Even earlier, back in the 50’s, the organisers of the Williamtown Airshow decided to include a demonstration of air to air gunnery. Williamtown, the home of the RAAF’s fighter force, is right on the coast, with a firing range almost next door, so such a demonstration was relatively easy to arrange. But what was needed was a way to improve the impact of the demonstration, so the radio transmissions of the pilots would be broadcast over the public address system for the tens of thousands of spectators to hear each riveting word.

Chuck Yeager and Luke Skywalker eat your hearts out.

Air to air gunnery is quite likely one of the more difficult skills man has set himself to master. All the theories of range, lead angle, fall of shot, skid and G-loading must be understood and mastered by every aspiring fighter pilot. It cannot, however, be practised without many safety rules. The tug aircraft tows a rectangular banner behind it on a lo-o-ong cable. If the firing aircraft approaches the banner at 90 degrees, the banner presents a bigger target, but the lead angle calculation is more difficult and the pilot has less time to fire, the relative speeds being very fast. The firing aircraft certainly cannot approach right behind the banner - the easiest shot, with the least closing speed and minimum or no lead angle - or the towing aircraft risks being hit as well. So, minimum approach angles are laid down and strictly enforced.

Back to the Airshow. The next event was announced; the clipped transmissions of the pilots echoed in the spectators’ eager ears; the first aircraft made its pass (deep voice now... ahh... the fame!); the roar of the 30mm Aden guns echoed across the field - and the 100 metre banner cable was cut one metre behind the tug aircraft by the first burst.

And over the public address system, heard clearly and very loudly by tens of thousands of adoring fans, came the strangled voice of the shootee: “Holy Snaffelling Duck****!” And with a final “CLICK”, all broadcast transmissions ceased for the day, as did the live firing exercise.

As far as I'm aware, air to air gunnery has not featured at RAAF Airshows since.

[Bushranger 71]

Good one Wiley and herewith a similar instance in 1961.

An airshow at RAAF Base Pearce in Western Australia; a flight of 4 x Mk. 35 Vampires flown by ex-fighter pilot QFIs with cannons (4) armed with 20mm ball ammunition. I was riding with the late 'Tex' Watson and the target was a mock building on the airfield with the attack direction away from the crowd toward the then seemingly endless sand dunes of WA. Those guys had not done any weapons work for a few years and 2 of them, including Tex, just clipped the target resulting in a certain amount of profanity over the PA system.

Fun times!

[emergov]

Help me out here fellas, were these the good old days when everything was tops and we had heaps and heaps of great aircraft being operated by very very professional pilots?

Thought so. It was also that time when we would throw away a Huey every year, on average, and crash jets by the handful. The best thing about the good old days was how good we all got at funeral drill.

Of course that was then, and now ADF aviation has to abide by all the rules that were written as a result of idiocy like the incidents you so fondly describe.

Have a little think about that the next time you sit down to bag out the current operators and decision makers.