What is going on with Olympic Air ????

[EuroNato100]

Within tha last few weeks a number of pilots ( rumors that they are more than 30) have been fired, in a rather unsual way. They have been called in Flight Operations Manager's office, where a lady from HR was also present, and have been informed that their services are not needed any more. An envelope with their finishing salary was handed to them. :=

The latest incident happened two days ago : :ugh:

The aicraft, was ready for push back in Athens International, when the Captain was informed by ground crew to stop the procedure and open the door (company order). After doing so a company representative came in cockpit only to announce, to the two astonished pilots :confused:, that the FO cannot fly because he had already been fired and by mistake have not been informed by HR :ugh:

You can imagine the rest :\ Two hours delay until the STBY FO arrived.

[norton2005]

wow I wonder what this is all about!!!

[Coffin Corner]

Fired? Or made redundant?

Was this the Airbus fleet or Dash 8 fleet?

CC

[maxalphaboy]

Trust me guys its Chaos out there.

Before anyone asks how I know this, please trust me on this one I have had firsthand experience.

When I was there it was initially ok, however working alongside the Flybe contract always had its minor issues. Mainly the BEE guys doing it right and better. This put the Greek noses often out of joint.

Anyway towards the end, 40 Pilots from the airbus fleet were made redundant as they are minimising the fleet due to the Aegean Merger. Before anyone asks although in principle the Greek Government has deferred the deal until December, its already happening behind closed doors. This is Greece and this is how they work, they are unwilling to change.

The most astonishing thing is that they made the good guys walk and kept the guys from the 'OLD' Olympic. They are trying there best to improve standards one gentleman in the flight safety office is a great guy (british) but in my humble opinion he is fighting a losing battle. Aviation is bizarre in Greece. As evident from the recent release of 40 pilots from the airbus fleet. There are guys screaming to get out, mostly the Contract guys.

Again in my humble opinion, leave well alone. Once flybe return on the 31st OCT they will be left alone with pilots with little experience on the Q400, yet don’t worry they have been flying these islands for 40years!! Yeah ok whatever!

Leave alone guys, look elsewhere and let’s see what’s left of them in the later part of the year. Its a toy town in Athens and the grownups still see themselves as skygods!?

In Reality they are clueless, to the real world of aviation, safety, FDM and EU Ops.

:=:=:=

[YYZ_Instructor]

Maxalphaboy and Choppercopper 99,

You guys are right and I can understand why you see the situation as bad and very unprofessional. I also fly here with the so called " competitor " airline, but then again my backround is from here so I see things in a different light. Anything that happens here in Greece, happens for a reason (Conspiracy Theory). The merger (happening or not) will go ahead under the table or above board if approved, its the nature of the market here....money makes things happen.
Don't forget that Aegean will own 75% of the newly merged Olympic and only 6 Olympic Airbus will remain after the merge. Being already fully crewed Aegean will not require any crew, so they will have to go. It is unfortunate...but there is no mercy here in Greece :ugh:
Its a difficult pill to swallow, but like anyone flying in Greece you always have to have a plan B! And that I always make sure of :ok:

Good luck to everyone

[SVoa]

Maxalphaboy, so your so experienced and your such a great pilot in order to be able to judge pilots from a country that has one of the best safety records in european aviation??? Did you forget about the Flybe pilots that almost landed at the wrong airport in Greece? :ugh:


Think before you judge.. I agree, things are hectic in greece right now and airlines are unorganised.. take a look at other airlines in Europe and on the "Island", it doesnt differ much..

[CaptAirProx]

SVoa,

I only know of one incident that matches what you imply, and the airline involved was not flybe!! Contractor yes but not flybe. Of course I could be wrong as I am not perfect either!

[maxalphaboy]

Maxalphaboy, so your so experienced and your such a great pilot

SVoa,

I dont actually recall claiming this, This seems purely an assumption on your part. My point still stands. I had first hand experience of many incidents on a daily basis that spread from minor SOP errors to blatant compromises in safety. Each time they came with a surprising justification from my colleague.

I Cant and Wont argue with you about the safety record in Greece, however I would say that from what I have seen, its most likely because incident are never willingly reported. Also the introduction of FDM at OA is a recent addition, it is already proving interesting!!

I spent months thinking and am fully confident in my judgement of OA and there operation. I find it offensive that you would even consider comparing aviation safety in Greece to that in the UK. Its a Joke, there are massive differences.

With Regard to your BEE incident, I am fully aware of the circumstances and I know the crew involved. Its not as serious as was made out, even in the AAIB report there were inaccuracies.

MAB :ok:

[Denti]

one of the best safety records in european aviation

Due to the same reporting culture as in state finances?

[hetfield]

Due to the same reporting culture as in state finances?

Nice one......:D

[SVoa]

Denti, your comment is almost racist and not in the scope of this conversation. My point is that i know of very many cases not only in Greece and not only in the UK, but in other countries as well where SOP's were ignored and safety compromised. And anyone who works in aviation can tell you the same thing. I also know that when EASA did an audit on Olympic sometime last summer, the results werent to standard, im aware of this. But I think your stretching it a bit.

But yeah I forgot, when investigation board blames the non-greek pilots there are deffinately some inaccuracies...



Bottom line, you dont like it? You know where the door is..

[His dudeness]

Denti, your comment is almost racist

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[choppercopper 99]

Quote - "Bottom line, you dont like it? You know where the door is.."


I would of thought that the BOTTOM LINE is to improve safty at all costs!!!!:rolleyes:

[SVoa]

The bottom line is that the country you are burrying right now has a very good safety record in terms of accidents AND incidents. There have been 3 accidents involving greek registered aircraft since 1995, all three of them are involving military aircraft. One more fatal accident within Greek airspace involving a cypriot airliner.. not greek.

A number of incidents on the Q400's at OA recently, all of them NOT involving greek crew. I never said safety standards in the UK are bad.. There are issues everywhere, others are breach of SOP's and others are F/O's flying on max hours and minimum rest, and not having enough money to eat. My point is that looking back, Greece has very good safety records, and so do OA and A3.

[CaptAirProx]

Maxalphaboy,

I have done a search of AAIB reports involving BEE in Greece and the only one I note had nothing to do with 'nearly' landing at the wrong airport. Without throwing stones the incident that did involve 'nearly' landing at the wrong airport was by another operator and type.

I do not have the report of this incident but did speak to the crews of the airline involved, a day or two after that event.

The AAIB event I believe you may be referring to is of something quite different. And I agree, inaccuracies abound.

[maxalphaboy]

CaptAirProx,

You are indeed right, SVOA is incorrect. There was an error by BEE in Greece as seen by the report below. However it was not landing at the wrong airport!?

I know the Captain involved personally, and I know from seeing the initial report that there are inaccuracies in the AAIB report.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/DHC-8-402%20Dash%208,%20G-FLBD%2007-10.pdf

Report: Flybe DH8D at Chania on Feb 23rd 2010, crew forgot about displaced threshold on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=42dfd484)

MAB :ok:

[aristoclis]

Reading all the above posts... what exactly is the problem? Olympic laying off people and the way they do it? Your contracts ending? Intending merger and ongoing preparation and coordination behind closed doors? And what is so special about it? Hasn't this happened before in other airlines?

If there are safety issues, dear collegues, why do you speak up right now just before your contracts end and not ealier? And please show me a way an airline can hide nowadays accidents.

Denti, spare us your smart comments. We (Greeks) love you, too.

[No Country Members]

From the report:

The captain recognized the error at the same time and increased thrust to continue to the displaced threshold for a safe landing.

Non event then. Next case?

[SVoa]

Correct you are, almost landing at the wrong airport was not a Flybe crew. Apologies for the mistake. It was an ATR42 that mistaked Paros airport for Naxos airport (two airports dont look much alike).. However crew was NOT Greek..

[aristoclis]

There have been 3 accidents involving greek registered aircraft since 1995, all three of them are involving military aircraft. One more fatal accident within Greek airspace involving a cypriot airliner.. not greek.

@SVoa

Speaking of inaccuracies, although being off topic, can you help my memory and name those three accidents of SX- registered aircraft since 1995 involving military aircraft? I guess you are not referring to HAF accidents...

[SVoa]

One Pezetel CFIT, one C130 that went down near Tanagra AFB, and the recent one with F-16's colliding in mid air during a routine training excersice. However there are more.. One more including a CL-215 crashing during a firefighting flight near Kalamata AFB, an F-16 crashing near Karpathos (Turkish aircraft also involved in this accident). The first thrre mentioned were the only ones i could find documentation on online.

However as I said, these are all involving non-civilian transport.

[YYZ_Instructor]

Why are you guys arguing about what accidents happened and where!?!?
Greece has some bad ways of doing things and so does the UK! Its exactly the same in both places with small differences, and all countries are the same too!

The whole point of this thread "Is what is happening with Olympic". If you don't work there or don't know what is going on, there is nothing you need to say.

Please lets try and keep this on the thread topic, so we can all learn here!

YYZ_Instructor

[aristoclis]

@SVoa,

Apparently you are in a wrong topic. Non of the above mentioned accidents has anything to do with SX-registered aircraft. These are (only a few of the) HAF accidents which are totally irrelevant with this topic and the (indeed) good safety record of greek airlines. Military, SAR and fire fighting flights are totally irrelevant. So please...

Again sorry for being off topic, which was... what exactly?

[protesilaos]

The last fatal airline accident in Greece, involving an aircraft of a Greek airline, occurred on August 1989, CFIT of a Shorts 330 in Samos. Oh my, maxalphaboy that's when you got off diapers!

When there are issues concerning flight safety, the company (especially if there is a British gentleman in the flight safety office !!! ) and/or the regulating authority should know about. That's called filing an incident or irregularity or air safety report. Oh, and that's what pilots who respect themselves and their profession do, while on contract and not afterwards.

The majority of the pilots who were laid off were guys from the old Olympic and by the way, they are the most experienced and in their 40's.

As far as the competency of Greek airline pilots is concerned let me mention the following : lgir, lgrp with southern winds , lgsm with any kind of wind!,lgkr lgko with TSRA to mention a few of the airports that have caused the premature graying of many pilot's heads ( including British!!).

[SVoa]

Aristoclis... You must have failed to read my previous post. What I am saying is that Greek pilots are not half as bad as some others in this forum were implying. Read my previous post before saying I am off topic. Also, this discussion is very relevant to this topic. Someone earlier in this thread was implying that whats going on in OA, is that there are a bunch of irresponsible and incompetent Greek pilots putting lives at danger. I just wanted to respond to this by showing that since 1995, all accidents with Greek aircrew were involving military aircraft only and that Greek civil aviation has a very good safety record!

So what is going on with Olympic Air then??? Aegean and Olympic have planned to merge, the EU, for the time being, is not allowing this to happen ( they will investigate the case until Jan 2011 ). However the two airlines are trying to split the market by basically staying out of eachothers way where ever they can. Since the plan is for the current management of Aegean to own 75% or more of the airline after the merger, they are basically running the show. Aegean downgraded some captains and from what i know thats as far as it went. Olympic on the other hand, has seen close to 60 pilots being sacked, and even more cabin crew. Clearly, Aegean is simply keeping their own fish in their own tank. However, there are rumors that the plan is for Aegean to stay as they are and even try to expand, and for Olympic to reposition as a domestic/regional carrier, possibly not even based in ATH but at SKG. This however is just a rumor.

I believe if they are not allowed to merge, one of the airlines (possibly OA) will have to go.. Greece can not sustain two full service carriers, and definately not in the current political and economic environment. I have no idea what is happening with the Flybe crew and the contract pilots from Parc Aviation though. Are they staying or leaving?

SVoa

[tomcat320]

I have been flying for OA and for A3 as a contract pilot.
Yes, things are different here in Greece, lost of things happening under the table. But the flight ops with OA and A3 is of normal standard. 99% of all the crews are doing a good job, well trained and 99,9 % in line with SOP.
Some SIM instructors in both companies are surely above average.

I have no statistics on safety in Greece but I asume it's pretty much the same like in most other EU counties.
No need for any greek pilot bashing here !
I had never any serious complaint with an F/O in almost two years.
Nobody's perfect, not me, not you. But in both companies they do a good job for not the best money in the industry. Finally don't forget that some of the island airports are no fun to fly with high wind, and that's their daily business.
And, yes, OA has laid off ca. 30 Pilots and all the PARC contractors are gone by 10/31.

The merge ? I doubt it will go through but plan B is most likely OA focusing on Q4's and some A320's and A3 doing the rest.

[AVIATION REFUGEE]

nd it offensive that you would even consider comparing aviation safety in Greece to that in the UK

now you talk b####it!
OLYMPIC AIRWAYS, and OLYMPIC AIRLINES, had a very high standard of safety. According to your comment regarding the safety in UK, i must inform you, that OA never lost an aircraft, due to fuel starvation.....(777....you know...):mad:
I don't know about OAir, which has NOTHING to do with OLYMPIC.
This is a completely new airline.
I must say, that in Greece, everything works this way...
That's why this country is in such a difficult economic situation...:eek:

[SmilingKnifed]

And were the 'this is Greece'/'we always did it this way in old Olympic' get out clauses to be dropped from the lexicon, you would probably have a much healthier country and healthier business model at OA. :ugh:

[aristoclis]

And what dou you mean exactly by "healthier country"? And by the way, which country are you from?

[on time all the time]

Dear Aviation Refugee,
please check your information before posting aggressive comments.
If you refer to the BA 777 accident at LHR and check, you will find that the fuel starvation was due to an engine design problem and not the airline not putting enough fuel in the tanks.

[SmilingKnifed]

aristoclis,

I'm a Brit, but through my Greek girlfriend, spend as much of my time as possible in either ATH or LXS.

Please do not think I'm anti-Greece, I'm far from it. But entrenched attitudes and practices at both a national level and within OAL are blocking progress.

[OXOGEKAS340]

I think that he did not posted an aggressive comment, but as far as EVERYONE knows, the 777 fell from the sky luckily on rw 27L threshold, due to fuel starvation, which was very nicely "covered" by the authorities.....
So leave the crap, because if it was another airliner, not so "famous" there would be a very-very big "mess"!!!!!:ugh::{:mad:

[aristoclis]

@ SmilingKnifed

Well, I would agree in general with your statement about entrenched attitudes and practices, but I don't think national health is the topic discussed, nor your general conclusion justified (Greece not being a healthy country). And then again who are we (and you) to judge a country's health and with which criteria.

And by the way, intrenched attitudes and practices were shown in the posts of some brits as well in this topic:
"Mainly the BEE guys doing it right and better" and "Due to the same reporting culture as in state finances?"

Should I come to any conclusions about Britain's health?

[OXOGEKAS340]

actually, when greeks build the PARTHENON, some of the now europeans, where living in caves....

[SmilingKnifed]

You're quite correct, my family included. I'm pleased to say we've come a long way in terms of intelligence in the intervening years. Based on your comments regarding the BA accident, dear chap I fear you haven't.

Aristoclis, I'm keen to put this one to bed to avoid further thread creep, so I'll reiterate the point, I have no axe to grind with the Greek people and love my time there.

But the fact remains that the Greek government openly lied to the EU and international markets about the parlous state of your finances. This profligacy and corruption have left you facing one of the greatest challenges to your nation since the civil war.

I won't pretend for a second that the UK is a bed of roses, we have many problems, both financial and social (both we seem to be addressing).

As Greece sheds some of the entrenched attitudes such as the requirement for an envelope stuffed with cash being proffered to a doctor for an operation and lorry drivers' licences being bought for in excess of 100,000 euros from retirees, so I hope Olympic will thrive and look forward, evolving as it does. In both I wish you well.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

It is not always helpful to suggest a particular nation's pilots are all incompetent - it just leads to unhelpful discussions that lead nowhere. The issue is more to do with entrenched cultural values that can be barriers to the highest standards of safety. I think those trying to defend the indefensible would do well to listen to the wise words of SmilingKnifed - unpalatable as they are.

Furthermore, to try and talk of the BA 777 accident as a case of 'fuel starvation' in the sense the term is normally applied is, at best, disingenuous. The unspoken assertion in 'fuel starvation' incidents is that the pilots were in some way responsible for having fuel on board an aircraft but the fuel not reaching the engines. That was clearly not the case, and everyone in the industry knows that to be so, even though there will always be the faintly-tragic conspiracy theorists who say otherwise. Such people are in the same category as those who believe man did not land on the moon, George Bush arranged the September 11th World Trade Center attack and that MI5 killed Princess Diana. Nothing, but nothing, will persuade them of the futility of their views, and the more evidence that piles up against them the more of a conspiracy they detect. I think most readers here would not be comfortable to be associated with such views.

Do the Greeks have things to put right within their aviation world? Most definitely. Would the general aviation practices in Greece be comparable to those in the UK? I suspect not. Can you say Greece is riddled with corruption at a level which is almost impossible for most UK citizens to have any identity with? Tragically yes. Can you say every Greek pilot is a cowboy? Absolutely not. Are there many great Greek pilots? Certainly. And herein lies the problem - the fact that there are so many good guys among the Greeks should not prevent them from seeking to change the unacceptable practices that have gained a place in their national psyche. There are a whole lot of things in the UK we have not got right, but aviation is an area where there is much to be pleased with. I trust that we will each have the humility to tackle what is wrong in our own nations for the greater good of all our people.

[YYZ_Instructor]

Is this thread about the Greek economy or about Olympic Air (a new private company that has nothing to do with ex OA)?
I would suggest everyone stops the comparison between aviation cultures and get back on topic about the merger,future of the company and pilots!

This is certainly getting boring.

Does anyone have any idea about this new contract out by Parc?
I was surprised since they just layed off approx 30 pilots :rolleyes:

Parc Aviation on behalf of our client are pleased to announce an exciting opportunity for experienced Dash 8 Q 400 Captains based in Greece.

Start Date: ASAP

Duration: 6 months (with possible extension)

In order to qualify you must meet these minimum requirements:

- Hold a current JAR licence and have the right to work in the EU.

Captains: 2,000 hours total time
1000 hours on type (500 of which must be PIC)

[aristoclis]

YYZ_Instructor,

See, that's what I mean. A thread started about Olympic air. Someone implies there are safety issues, especially now since the brits are leaving. He also suggests to keep an eye on the company because of the greek cowboys (that's what he implies). And when he gets the answer that the last fatal accident involving airline in Greece (apart Falcon accident) was in 1989, which is a fact, then the brits start to compare reporting culture in the airlines with state finances, politics, health system, bribe envelopes, lorry drivers etc.
In a few words not being able to support their view about aviation safety in Greece (which is at least european standard), they take this opportunity to attack Greece in general, which of course is indicative of their arrogant culture. My dear brit friends, some indeed offensive posts of greeks are only answers to your initial unacceptable ones which were off topic in the first place.

And by the way is this an aviation phorum? And where are the mods?

[SmilingKnifed]

aristoclis,

My original point (and I repeat ad nauseum that I'm not attacking Greece) was about some of the comparisons between the entrenched attitudes within Olympic and Greece in general. In short, Olympic has gone out of business before and faces repeating its mistakes.

Examples off the top of my head could be low number of CDAs flown into ATH and the associated fuel penalty, the glut of ground staff (a team of cleaners boarding on every turnaround) the number aircraft not fully utilised on a working day. I'm not saying for a second that OAL should try and be Ryanair, in fact that's a horrifying idea given the excellent service I receive as a passenger, but the level of waste was unacceptable for a public company and is even more so now Marfin control the purse strings.

I would very much like to see Olympic thrive, particularly given the number of friends I have on either side of the flight deck door fearing for their jobs. There have been many successful agencies ready to help Olympic (much as Flybe can irritate me, they are a money making machine) but their advice has been rebuffed with the twin get out clauses of 'we always did it this way in the old Olympic' and 'this is Greece' (asta na pane to use my limited Greek!).

These are not attacks on anyone's personal capabilities and I do wish people would stop taking them so personally. Possibly as an 'arrogant Brit', my ego is somewhat more fortified. I'd still be glad to debate further over a beer when I come back for the PAO vs Barcelona game.

[5 RINGS]

When talking about flight safety culture in Greece, two strong memories sping to mind...

The numerous "Cancel IFR" calls from traffics departing ATH to the islands, very safe indeed as they then lost any sort of protection provided by ATC.

The second...the story of this F/O calling "Go Around" three times, just to be acknowledge by the greek captain with a loud "Sh*t up!". Not word to mouth, I actually met this F/O.

So guys don't be too quick when mentionning caves and all the rest of it...

[OXOGEKAS340]

5 RINGS.....
First of all, VFR flights are allowed to small crafts....and is very common in LGGG.
I dont know, if you chaps from UK know how a plane flies without the usage of FMC's, FMGS, MCDU's and all that crap, but once I gave the opportunity to a fellow chap from UK, to make a visual approach in LGIR, and he lost himself ....Actually, new "era" teaches "computer and panel operators", the old era, as I am, was teaching real aviators...

According to the capt. who did this, I know also a brit, cpt, who miscalculate the hdwind, coming inbound to LHR, and he miss the runway, for a couple of hundred yards, due to fuel starvation...:ok:

This same day I was also inbound to LHR, with A340, and had 2,5 tons more fuel on board for hdw....:ugh::ugh::ugh: I was "lucky" and landed a few minutes earlier, with some fuel in my tanks...:uhoh::uhoh:

[captplaystation]

OXOGEKAS340, what are you on about ? who missed the runway in LHR by a few hundred yards due to fuel starvation ? ?

Just in case you are alluding to a BA B777 3 and a half years ago, please please don't make a total tw@t of yourself by going down that road. :=

[eliasg17]

I dont know, if you chaps from UK know how a plane flies without the usage of FMC's, FMGS, MCDU's and all that crap
OXOGEKAS340 I have done some training in the UK and i can say that they do know how to fly without fmc's etc..I found the navigation to be very tricky as at some points on the route it was only grass and fields and nothing to refer to(VFR)...once i flew in greece..i didnt even need a chart...(Off topic)

[5 RINGS]

OXOGEKAS340

I talk CRM/flight management to you and you reply stick and rudder.

It(s not because flying VFR in LGGG is common that it's a good idea. It's like wearing a helmet when riding a bike in Athens...everybody gives it a miss, but is it really the way to go?

I'm no newbie either, so please save me your 'old generation real pilot' rubbish...I too flew good old reliable aircraft with steam gauges instead of a start of the art FMS.

I really enjoyed flying in that part of the world, that was a very good professionnal experience.

But how come that a high caliber professionnal like yourself with hours on 340, went to Sri Lankan? no offense to this amazing country, the company downsides are world famous...

[OXOGEKAS340]

Yes, i am talking about this incident with the 777 who missed the 27L by a hundred yards...I am not so stupid (I do not have Alzheimer's till now..) to listen thousands of craps stating millions possible causes for engines flame-out due to fuel starvation.
According to CRM, well, in a mass of aviators, I am sure that there is a number of them, who do not respect the CRM. Maybe this was the case, for the particular captain.
According to "stick & rudder", older generation pilots, where more aviators...New generation p ilots, are more SOP's funs, and "infected" by the computers....I was also trained in UK, OATS, some 30 years ago. And I was teached to fly with needles an radials, instead of FMS...(at this time FMS was something out of our minds).
About srilankan, there is another post....and for your info, i am flying at the moment 737 and not 340...which i hope to fly again in a few weeks.
You see, this are the problems after OLYMPIC AIRLINES closure....:mad:

[OXOGEKAS340]

They are looking for Q400 pilots NOW!
:{:{

[Wizofoz]

Yes, i am talking about this incident with the 777 who missed the 27L by a hundred yards...I am not so stupid (I do not have Alzheimer's till now..) to listen thousands of craps stating millions possible causes for engines flame-out due to fuel starvation.

You utterly contemptible ****....

PB had plenty of fuel in his tanks and too much ice in his fuel filters.

That you cold make the totally ridiculous statement above puts you in the very bottom of any barrel when it comes to relevance...

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

OXOGEKAS340 - It is clearly difficult for you to realise how much of a laughing stock you are making of yourself by your woefully ignorant and staggeringly foolish assertions. Your views are total fantasy and lack one shred of credible evidence to support them. Comments such as yours from someone purporting to be a B737/A340 captain are truly jaw-dropping for any professional pilot to read. Alas, you are thereby demonstrating that the worst fears of others outside your nation about the capabilities and judgements of those within it are totally correct. Your comments do more than any other post on this thread to damage the reputation of your country and its aviation community.

You may genuinely believe that British Airways, Boeing, Rolls Royce, the AAIB, the NTSB plus the various other agencies and companies involved are all liars and have conspired together to concoct a story to protect the UK national interest. The reams of technical evidence assembled to support the claims of the aforementioned people are no doubt falsified and large bribes have obviously been paid to numerous individuals and agencies to prevent the truth from coming out. There is another alternative, that in your quieter moments you may wish to consider - you are in fact a cretin who lacks judgement and is unfit to hold the position you claim to have. I wonder which of those options any rational person reading your comments is going to choose......

[YYZ_Instructor]

Norman- I wouldn't go that far! They do say that the CVR and FDR on the
AirFrance A320 that crashed during the airshow were switched, in the interest of national and economical security (Airbus & Air France).

I don't agree with everything OXYGEKAS writes, but for only one 777 to have ice build up in its fuel filters with temperatures in the UK that rarely go below freezing at 8000', they will have to try a lot harder to make me believe that.

Don't forget that there is a lot of rich people's money on the line, and they wouldn't be happy to lose it.

Accident or not, we will never know....we can only read the investigation report, and hope everyone reported what they knew...we are just pawns.

Before anyone starts trying to comment on what I have said, its my opinion.
I worked as Capt in the Uk and Greece. I have not noticed one difference in either countries way of flying planes! Bad guys here, bad guys there! Great guys here, great guys there! :hmm:


So lets stop bickering about who's pilots are pillocks, because its a fair share.....now back to Olympic.....PLEASE!

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

YYZ Instructor - sorry mate but you are absolutely wrong. You cannot state 'accident or not - we will never know' and expect everyone else to accept that there is some doubt on the issue. In so doing you are accepting the possibility of widespread corrpution at every level of the UK and US accident investigation system - that is not something I can comfortably leave unchallenged. If you have the slightest evidence to suggest that the BA crash is not as it has been stated by the AAIB, let us hear it. If not, as I am 100% sure is the case, you should not be lowering yourself to the 'B52 found on the Moon' level occupied by most conspiracy theorists. It gives credence to the lunatic fringe end of aviation - in this case an Olympic pilot who is stating as fact things that are demonstrably not the case. If you lower yourself to accepting a basic premise that all aviation in the world is the same and that the corruption endemic in various parts of the world is also prevalent here then you can start to believe the issues are the same everywhere. That is absolutely not the case and is at the centre of this whole thread. Incorrect and inaccurate information must be tackled if we are to arrive at a sensible conclusion. As I have stated previously, show me one scrap of evidence to support these views. The world is full of conspiracy theories - I am completely open to each and every one of them on a case by case basis, if there is a shred of evidence to support them. In this case there is not, and you being complicit in the ludicrous accusations just takes the heat off the issues being discussed.

More importantly the type of characters on display here are at the root of the problems at Olympic - employees living in cloud cuckoo land for year upon year while their company languished in overt bankruptcy, kept afloat by handouts from the state. Many of those now in management at the new Olympic are the same people who were in and around Olympic Airways, and are now using the same practices that led them into difficulty in the first place.

This thread is about the behaviour of a management culture and there are people on here questioning much of what passes for normality in Greek business and aviation practice. Rather than address the issues, there are employees of Olympic turning to the insane end of the scale, and thereby doing enormous damage to their own cause. I will therefore continue to challenge the suggestions being made here by yourself and others, since they have no evidence to support them.

[YYZ_Instructor]

Norman, relax...
I never said it wasn't an accident. Everyone can read the AIB report and make of it what they want.

About corruption: its everywhere....more than you think..
live with it or live not knowing it.

Good luck

[No Country Members]

temperatures in the UK that rarely go below freezing at 8000',

Really? :confused:

I think you may have missed the point about the fuel starvation, it was little to do with UK temperature at the time. I also think you are either drunk or a bit of a fool.

[OXOGEKAS340]

NSF, maybe you don't know the word "corruption"....
Well, if you believe that the reason of the engines shut-down of the 777 was the ice in the pumps, then i will throw my licenses into the bin, and will never fly again!
You make me laugh with all this crap!
If this 777 was Olympic, or another smaller airliner, then the explanation of the incident, would be completely different...
I may be greek, but i am not stupid, to believe all this crap!
Sorry mate!:mad::ugh::{:D:sad::ok:

[OXOGEKAS340]

NCM can you tell us what is this temperature?:O

[OXOGEKAS340]

NSF, you are not only arrogant, but also ......
First of all, ex Olympic pilots are NOT in the "new" Olympic's flight decks. Only 40 among the 450 joined the new company, which has nothing to do with the old Olympic.
You are too "small" to understand what happened to OA, since 1989 and the liquidation of the company....
I was lucky, extremely lucky, thanks God, that I joined this grate airline since 1982. There will be no olympic anymore, and the way we operate.
I know, this made us "enemies" to most of our ex-competitors..
You must first know the facts, and then write about what happens.
In this company, no one of the management is ex-Olympic, except the chief pilot, whose role is just typical.
Most of the others are from Aegean....
So, before you write something, give some time to your brain, so your hand doesn't write things that are into your imagination.
:ugh:

[OXOGEKAS340]

WW, i am mac user.....You as a pc user, explains your problematic behavior :mad:

[mad_bob]

Blimey...???

[Denti]

NSF, maybe you don't know the word "corruption"....

Well, we certainly learned this year way too much about the greek way of running things...

But don't make the mistake of taking that as the normal behavior in other parts of europe. Mistakes are done everywhere, how you cope with them and how upfront you are about them is the difference.

[OXOGEKAS340]

Denti....i see....corruption is not known in your country, yeah?
Well don't let me to remind you, that first your country has to return to us the stollen marbles of Parthenon....and then you may be in the position to discuss the word "corruption"....:mad:

[Cityliner]

Well don't let me to remind you, that first your country has to return to us the stollen marbles of Parthenon....

Of course this is the same like paying 50€ extra to see a doctor with your sick child!

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

This is turning into the Madhatter's Tea Party. Just remember OXOGECAS340 - just because you are paranoid does not mean they are not out to get you. And while you are contemplating that, I have two other mysteries you could maybe help me with. Who really did kill JFK, and was it George Bush after all who made those planes fly into the World Trade Center? I have been looking for so long to find someone who would know the truth, and at last I have found someone who does. I think If I did not have the pink rabbit to speak to I would go completely nuts....

[Boing7117]

Most of the others are from Aegean....

OXOGEKAS340 - You've not merged with Aegean yet... right? Officially? Or maybe you merged 12 months ago, but just not told anybody. Is that the way it's done in Greece?

Well don't let me to remind you, that first your country has to return to us the stollen marbles of Parthenon

Yes, those marbles are yours... and yes they should be returned back to Greece. But this is a million miles away from the original question about what is happening to Olympic Air!

£50m loss last year - irrespective of a brand new company, restructuring costs etc etc... Olympic is not in great shape. The sooner they address the haemorrhage of cash (start from the bottom guys.... 4-8 cleaners per aircraft PER turnaround, full drinks/food service.... the list goes on!!)

I consider how much cash could be saved doing Mikonos and back. 17-20 minute flight... full food service, followed by a cleaning of the aircraft afterwards in MKN. MADNESS at its very best! WHY WHY WHY?

Irrespective of what the customer demands - they will have to learn they can't have their cake and eat it - literally! Ticket prices aint cheap, granted - but if Olympic reduce those fares a wee bit - abolish the food service (or charge for it) and scrap them cleaners here, there and everywhere (sorry cleaners), they might find they could potentially begin the recover themselves somewhat.

And before anyone from Greece tells me that the Greeks are very proud people and demand a particular level of service etc etc etc, there were times when the British public expected free food and free drink - then along came Ryanair and EasyJet and everyone had to pay for the privilege of a sandwich - but the fares were lower and the business model worked (for everybody - even if you do hate Ryanair - different thread here ;-)). You get on board an Easyjet/Ryanair/Flybe flight these days and ask for your "free" tea or coffee and you get looked at in a very peculiar way. Times have changed - air travel has moved on - Olympic need to do the same!!

Olympic has all the hallmarks of becoming a fabulous, money-making operator in Greece. It just needs to cut some serious fat, realise that the "glamour" days of aviation are over and it needs to focus on providing PURELY the runway-air-runway service. Everything else, for the consumer, is an extra.

[OXOGEKAS340]

BOEING 7117, what makes you think, that I am flying for olympic air?
NO I AM NOT flying for them, and I would not do it in the future, because I believe that this company, IS NOT OLYMPIC....
I was flying for OLYMPIC 28 years, and I don't care, if they are merged with A3, or if they are loosing money...I am a "victim" of the closure of OA, and I am flying somewhere in Asia, 737 at the moment, trying to find something better.
:mad:

[OXOGEKAS340]

OLYMPIC could easily earn a lot of money, only from JFK and CYYZ routes, but "the system" wanted this money to run in other pockets, and therefore the 4 A340 are parked in LGAV, 14 months now......waiting someone to buy them....
Of course, these routes are now operated from the ex-competitors.....
This is what we say, "corruption" ....
Closure of OA, and party on the competitor Aegean airlines...:mad:

[Boing7117]

Since we're on a rumour network, rumour has it those 4 A340's won't be going anywhere. When old Olympic ceased-to-be, the engineers and staff that were set to lose their jobs decided to destroy the aircraft tech logs.

So you've got 4 A340's sat in LGAV gathering dust without a maintenance record, making them worthless.

Any truth in that?

[SVoa]

Who in gods name give any of you the right to critisize any nationality of pilots??????? If they are Greek or English or from Mongolia doesnt make a difference does it??? This thread began by some ignorant pilot battering greek pilots in generalisation!! As i said in a previous post: if you dont like how things are done in Greece, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!!!!

And stop the STUPID posts about the BA 777 crash landing due to fuel starvation! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[OXOGEKAS340]

B7117, WHAT ARE U DRINKING AND U DON'T TELL US?
Re U so idiot, to write so stupid messages?
:mad:

[assymetricdrift]

Bloody hell...

I've been reading this thread and have been wondering "are you for real?"

Olympic are losing money head over heels.

Money could be saved by:

1/ Not having a full service, most of which gets wasted at the end of the flights and replace with a "pay" service
2/ Not being catered every 2nd flight
3/ Not having a full team of cleaners coming on and emptying the entire cabin and changing everything
4/ Not having a toilet dump vehicle coming out every time you return to ATH - I can't believe that Greek passengers visit the can more than anyone else!
5/ Stopping the A319/A320s flying flights with 20-30 passengers on.
6/ Utilising the A319/A320s a bit more - they were always doing nothing when I saw them!

I can think of more ideas of wasted money.

The A340s will not be going anywhere as the documentation was apparently burnt after the collapse of the old Olympic.

What doesn't matter is nationalities vs gashness vs which country does right vs attitudes vs goodness only knows what else.

The pure and simple fact is that at the moment, in its current guise, Olympic is unsustainable.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

OK - there are sufficient mad people on here who want to believe the BA B777 conspiracy theories. Despite the best efforts of the more rational in our midst, you want to discuss this 'valid' issue. Fine - rather than wasting your valuable time researching the vast weight of evidence that supports the pump icing explanation, and you are indeed on a rumour network, why not start a separate thread on this 'important' issue? There are no doubt numerous other fellow travellers out there who are willing to take time out the mothership to join you in your quest for the truth. Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, we shall return to the issue of Olympic - how is that for a compromise solution?

OXOGEKAS - as one greatly attracted to conspiracy theories yourself, I am surprised you are so easily offended at a perfectly reasonable conspiracy theory regarding the ex-OA A340s. Perhaps you may be able to put us all out our misery and tell us categorically that the rumours about the destroyed paperwork are not true, and that there is no reason whatsoever that these aircraft are not in service. If, however, they are not able to be used, perhaps you could grace us with an explanation. And by the way, it seems to me that assymetricdrift has a remarkable grasp of the situation.

[aristoclis]

Denti, 5Rings and the rest,

Why are you attacking Oxogekas? His arguments are equally ridiculous with yours. Since he made his first aviation steps in the UK it is obvious that he got the "british" temperament.
I don't care about BA nor your 777. It is irrelevant, as are the majority of your posts that started for irrelevant reason offending and insulting Greece, like you were waiting just for the chance to do that.

5Rings, although being ironic towards SVoa you obviously (despite your cleverness) did not understand what he meant.

Denti, instead of offending Greece and the "greek way of running things", could you explane to me why exposed british asses have been seen repeatedly in front of ancient greek monuments? Watch your mouth when you are referring to Greece pal...

[Denti]

Wouldn't comment on the brits, i'm not one of them and never claimed i were. Just a tad angered that every tax payer in my country has gone 800 million € into debt to keep that corrupt place afloat. Caused mainly by the greek way of running things, including the old Olympic and probably the new one too.

[OXOGEKAS340]

The "theory" of burned tech, logs, of the A340's, is just an imagination of some (mentally) ill brains...
No pals, there is no such a scenario....Books and logs are all in the liquidators archives.
Planes are still on taxiway in LGAV, and will remain there, until someone is gonna pay the money, Greek government is asking for...(for u that know everything...those planes belong to the Greek Ministry of Economy, and NOT to the closed (liquidated) Olympic Airlines. Same happens with the 737's and ATR's, which belong to Olympic Airlines.

Well english friends...yes u pay for our depts, as we also pay for yours..Except if u think that your country has no dept..... (I can assure u that your dept, is far far more than ours...). Wait, your time will come sooner than you think.
Until then, do something good...Return to us, the stollen marbles of Parthenon....
Then u can return also the items belonging to Egypt...


777, "theory"...Haha!
You can tell thousands of stories....and you can bring millions of reports.
You will not change the minds of most of us, that this plane, fell of the sky, due to fuel starvation...I don't give a s@@t if you believe this or not.
I BELIEVE this, and no one will change my mind.

Regarding to Olympic Air, this belongs to the group MARFIN, and has nothing to do with Olympic..Even the "circles" have new colors.
It's not going well, because their strategy was wrong. And still is...Therefore I believe, that this company will close soon, or at the best, will operate some turboprops within "agonic lines" within Greece.

[aristoclis]

Denti,

Keep us afloat? Pay our debts?

If you are a pilot you probably earn twice as much as we here in Greece with far better benefits. And that in a country where prices are among the highest in Europe. This is the fact for the majority of the jobs in Greece. It seems to me that somehow we are paying your debt. And if you are so strongly insulting a whole country then it would be nice to tell us where you come from.

[Boing7117]

B7117, WHAT ARE U DRINKING AND U DON'T TELL US?
Re U so idiot, to write so stupid messages?

OXOGEKAS340 - I put a straight question to you - and assymetricdrift has thankfully reiterated my point and expanded upon it.

If you are a pilot you probably earn twice as much as we here in Greece with far better benefits

aristoclis - absolutely wrong. I fly the same aircraft type operated by Olympic and I know categorically that Olympic pilots in both the LHS and RHS are substantially better paid that we are - granted, your terms, i.e. you scheduling agreement may not be quite as good as ours but your pay is much much better.

Regarding the A340's - if I were selling my car, I'd probably make the effort to give it a wash inside and out, maybe stick a for-sale sign on it, perhaps advertise the vehicle in the appropriate places..... Having taxied past those A340's at least a dozen times last week - they don't look like they're for sale. The don't look like the owner is waiting for someone to pay the money for them - they look like they've been resigned to ruin. Of course I'm probably wrong.

[exeng]

777, "theory"...Haha!
You can tell thousands of stories....and you can bring millions of reports.
You will not change the minds of most of us, that this plane, fell of the sky, due to fuel starvation...I don't give a s@@t if you believe this or not.
I BELIEVE this, and no one will change my mind.


Well it's not often on this site that I come across someone on here who states he will not change his mind regardless of any evidence presented. I don't want to appear too rude, but your statement would seem to say far more about you than it does about Olympic or anything else aviation related.


Regards
Exeng

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

"I BELIEVE this, and no one will change my mind" - Madhatter's Tea Party. No further questions m'Lud.

[Denti]

Indeed, that seems to be the case.

[OXOGEKAS340]

Let me tell u in a polite manner....
'' WHO CARES WHAT U THINK"!!!!

And just for info.....only uk pilots, and to be more precise, most of uk pilots believe in this crap about the 777..
Most of us, don't.
Gezundheit!:=

[exeng]

And just for info.....only uk pilots, and to be more precise, most of uk pilots believe in this crap about the 777..


Thanks for producing the results of your intensive pilot survey. One or two of my pilot colleagues here in Africa (some of them Greek by the way) seem to have been left out of your survey and would like to be given the opportunity to vote positive to believing 'crap'.

One more fellow for the ignore button.


Regards
Exeng

[assymetricdrift]

I'm sorry but this is just ridiculous.

OXOGEKAS340 - do you have to be so confrontational with everything you say? So, you've accused us of being raging alcoholics, mentally ill, sloppy, gash, useless and British* (the last one is true!). But for goodness sake, if you are involved in this profession, surely your posts should reflect a little bit more maturity? You know, you can have an argument without insulting people? - it's called a debate.

Heaven forbid that someone with your attitude gets their way into the flightdeck - for every on like you, there are at least 500 wannabes with a much better and professional outlook on the career - and they've only got 200 odd hours in their logbooks. As for knowing more than than the AAIB, well, why don't you go and work for them then?

This thread has turned from being a "what is going on at Olympic?" into a great big slagging match between someone who believes that his country can do no wrong, and sensible people who have tried to bring it back onto topic.

I'm sorry - can you just keep it on the original topic please? Or just close it up?

[OXOGEKAS340]

Assymetricdrift.....i think that some of u, started to insult greeks, and Greece...u started saying about corruption, leaving outside Olympic air...
About my friends in Africa, ask them.....Don't hesitate ......U will receive the same answer.
Most of us believe that this plane fell of the sky, due to fuel "missing" from the tanks...Maybe u don't know the expression "democratic way of thinking"...
I dont want to insult , of course, a nation, but there are things that make me angry, such as the "marbles", and actually the way that our belongings are in London, instead of Athens...
Some of u insulted us.
I want this thriller to end here, because it will hurt all of us.
We are aviators, and politics must stay out.
We have completely different mentalities and way of living, thinking, reacting.
So, lets stop now here, all that crap.
:ok:

[assymetricdrift]

There are two things never to discuss in a pub...

Politics and religion.

So... anyway... back on topic? :)

[Iakovos]

Wow, I have just spent the last hour reading through all of this stuff.

OK, so we all know about the history with the Old Olympic, and the down-hill struggle the new OA seems to be taking. But let's get back to the main topic shall we? Yes, lets.

To answer someone's earlier question. Several Flybe FO's are being posted out to ATH for 3 month contracts starting now-ish. There are rumours that OA may want to borrow a couple of Flybe's Q400's Summer 2011.

It seems crazy to us Brit guys that an airline can sack/make redundant permanent contract guys whilst hiring contract pilots from Parc/Flybe at the same time. But this is how Greece works as some of you have so beautifully expressed it.

I feel for the OA cabin crew who worked with Flybe for 16 months. All the Seniors were demoted back to Juniors and a lot sacked from October onwards. Maybe a thank you from Miss M for all their hard work with Flybe. (They worked under very stressful conditions, Ie. rosters suffering more disruption than any of us would ever believe and 400Euro less a month because of low flying hours (Q400) but long duty hours (lots of ground time AS etc).

The one man who we need to hear from is Venopolous (the guy who owns Marfin/Goodys etc). I'm sure he knows where he's taking the company.

I would love to return to Greece and fly the Q400. But with all that's going on in Ellada right now, its gonna be years untill there is an stability over there.

I would love to hear from any non-contract pilots working for OA at the moment. What's your opinions on the future of OA?:sad:

[GrkPilot]

Olympic Air pilots won't know till the end of the summer season. All I have to say is, Aegean is the place to be in Greece right now, much more stable.

[SmilingKnifed]

The cabin crew are being called into briefings on 'the commercial plan' this week. Something may have been lost in translation, but it basically amounted to a vague idea of doing more charter work.

Bad times indeed. I look forward to the day when Olympic staff can breathe a little easier.

[Griego]

Rumours say that 50 airbus pilots will be fired or can choose to go to Q400. 100 Cabin attendants will be fired. Aegean will increase his network mid haul and Olympic will increase short routes. Splitting the pie. I hope bussiness will pick up during the summer. They are looking for more pilots so fill the gaps of people leaving. Maybe the airbus pilots will not like to be 'downgraded'?

[hetfield]

I want this thriller to end here, because it will hurt all of us.
We are aviators, and politics must stay out.
We have completely different mentalities and way of living, thinking, reacting.- No, it will not hurt all of us. But sorry for you to hear what non-greeks think about it.
- We are aviators, yes. But this doesn't mean to switch off our brain if something goes wrong. With OA things have always been political, or at least 99% of its long history.
- For me, the story of OA is a great example for what's wrong in Greece.

Sorry if this hurts YOUR feelings.