GA security

[Super Cecil]

Anybody been through Dubbo recently? The security measures taken seem to be not consistant. A visiting pilot can't get out of the GA parking yet there is no metal detection for airline passengers so pax can board with a loaded revolver or knife or any weapon of their choice. The GA exit gate has no code, no number to ring or any way to exit the gate. To enter the GA section though the same gate there is a number to ring on the outside to get the gate code for access. If you have a heavy middle eastern accent will they still give you the code? How can somebody on the end of a phone sort visiting pilots from visiting terrorists? How can millions of dollars of fences and security compete with a $2 pair of side cutters?

[el_capitano]

I feel your pain. After recently visiting regional ports, it is quite annoying to find that you dont have access to the main terminal via the ramp area but have to use a side gate to get into the terminal, well cant call it a terminal, its just a small crappy building in most cases. Unless you are with a regional airline, then you can walk straight in.
Security in the regional ports needs to be re-addressed.

[YPJT]

Yup absolutely. Lets have:
Manned security gates 24/7 with someone to verify your ASIC.
Electronic ACCESS chips embedded into your ASIC which will open the gate for you. No need to hide your middle eastern accent then.
Screening for all departing aircraft, regardless of point of departure, MTOW, classification of service.
SuperCecil, The OTS loves people like you because it validates their endless list of self fulfilling prophecies.

All those measures you think are so necessary can easily be implemented. No shortage of companies queuing up to sell screening equipment and for G4 or MSS to provide the people to carry out the associated manual tasks. Even the local fencing contractors would love the job of putting up a 2.4m chain mesh fence with angled barbed wire strands.

But here's the rub, all this will come at a very significant cost indeed. Do you really want Dubbo to be like YSSY or YMML? You should be thankful that aviation security is based on a localised risk context. Dubbo, if it has RPT aircraft greater than 20,000KG MTOW will be subject to full passenger screening WEF 2012. Believe me, GA pilots and pax that get caught up in that little mess are going to be spewing. Especially if they are also forced to pay for the pleasure.

[Eljay]

If you walk up to the gate airside at Dubbo, you will miss the gate code.
Step back a pace and you will see the gate code printed on a post, about 1.5 mts inside the gate.

[Atlas Shrugged]

visiting terrorists

....in Dubbo??????????????

I'd be more worried about the residents of Vegimite Valley!

[Worrals in the wilds]

Here, you ring the number and someone turns up with the code after checking your ASIC for the very reasons you list. Obviously other places don't do that and maybe they should.

How can millions of dollars of fences and security compete with a $2 pair of side cutters?

Most types of wire fence can be cut with regular tools from a hardware store. Even the major airports have this problem. New Delhi airport has a full sized prison style wall built around it with guard posts and 3500 security staff yet they still get breaches.
DIAL fails to secure airport perimeter, yet again - Hindustan Times (http://www.hindustantimes.com/DIAL-fails-to-secure-airport-perimeter-yet-again/Article1-538536.aspx)

If you start requiring walls or tamper proof fencing for even the major Australian airports at 20km+ a perimeter, someone's going to have to pay and it sure won't be the government or the airports.

+2 what YPJT said.

[Roger Greendeck]

Dubbo is not the only place. I do enjoy the irony that at one airfield I visit regularly the airline staff can't (won't?) check your ASIC and let you through the gate. So you go to the GA gate, ring for the code (no ASIC check) and then you walk back across the RPT line to your aircraft.

[Jabawocky]

And at YPJT.....the airstrip that is, you rock up to the gate, ring the number, few seconds later via sms the gate is unlocked :D

The towell heads will never think of that :hmm:

[Angle of Attack]

I went to YPJT the other day and got in without any security. Apart from the fact I worked there years ago. Maybe these idiots need to profile rather than make rules hehe!! All good I got in with no drama! :)

[Stikybeke]

I know I go on from time to time about the perils of being caught without your asic card as opposed to committing an aviation related crime or blatant disregard for safety (which IMOH is far more serious then this locked gate stuff) but really, has anybody ever heard of anybody getting fined or in any more serious trouble for breaching one of these "Security controlled areas" then being told "Hey, you can't go in there" or "Stop or I'll shoot, hang on, forget that last one, I don't have a gun." or how about this one?, "You'd be arrested for that except I don't have any powers of arrest and actually I don't think I'm allowed to arrest anyone in any case." Or (as was said to me once up at Merimbula), "I'd call the Police except they're out of town at the moment."

Stiky
:ugh:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

We are very fortunate in this country that the typical aviation terrorist is, apparently (?), both dumb and lazy!

If you walk out of the terminal at places like Cooktown and Thangool, you are confronted by a 2 M high security fence and a locked gate. However, no more that 20 M off to the side of the security gate, the fence drops down to no more than a metre or so high. Even a fat lazy bugger like me can climb over it without doing himself a mischief!

Dr :8

[Edition12]

I can never remember the Cooktown gate code, Dr - so I use the same method!

[Super Cecil]

If you start requiring walls or tamper proof fencing for even the major Australian airports at 20km+ a perimeter, someone's going to have to pay and it sure won't be the government or the airports.

That's not what I am suggesting, it's proven that the tens of millions already spent have been totally wasted, the only result has been to inconvience pilots who already have ASIO files and are watched anyway. Those who are determined to circumvent the failed security measures will. Why impose all this on law abiding pilots when you can still board an airliner at a regional airfield with concealed weapons?
As for perimeter fencing, at most regional airfields it doesn't even keep the roos out. With one well known airfield having the "Terrorist proof" fence in a trench because it was too close to the runway.

[rmcdonal]

Stikybeke
I did hear of a guy who got fined for not wearing his ASIC in a clear view, he put his high vis vest on and it covered it. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Worrals in the wilds]

Why impose all this on law abiding pilots when you can still board an airliner at a regional airfield with concealed weapons?


Because it looks good on the media release and gives the false impression that the Minister is being pro-active. That's what government is all about :yuk:. Until you work for them you have no idea how many millions of tax dollars are wasted on this sort of media driven crap (and not just in aviation).

Announcing that airports are basically unsecurable (which they are) would not look good on the media release and be seized on by ACA etc. It would make the punters think the Minister was being lazy. The fact that it's the truth is irrelevant. Interestingly, I noticed in the Hindustan Times that the Indian government is a lot more honest about the realities of airport security.

Airport fences aren't breached very often because very few people want to breach them. No other reason.

[Super Cecil]

I did hear of a guy who got fined for not wearing his ASIC in a clear view, he put his high vis vest on and it covered it.
Do yoo get the "High viz vest strut" when yoo ponce around in yours Robert?:8

[Worrals in the wilds]

In the Good Ol' Days, even on the major airport ramps you just had to produce it on demand. The new visibility rule has resulted in an awful lot of ASICs on lanyards taking around-the world-trips in aircraft holds. :ugh: Personally I don't think any of the post 9/11 'initiatives' have resulted in safer aviation, with the possible exception of banning box cutters on screened aircraft.

[YPJT]

Why impose all this on law abiding pilots when you can still board an airliner at a regional airfield with concealed weapons?
OK, so there are some gaps in the processes that are slowly but surely being closed. The next step is the 20k MTOW trigger for screening. So what next Super Cecil, will you be saying that all GA aircraft are potentially terrorist weapons? Perhaps they are and we should screen everyone and everything before it leaves the ground.
Be careful of what you wish for.
For the record though, I do not in any way support the notion that properly security cleared pilots should be subject to the same screening measures as every Tom, Dick and Hussein boarding and aircraft.

[YPJT]

SuperCecil,
your wish is granted -

Security upgrades to hit passengers' costs By Steve Creedy From: The Australian October 27, 2010

AIRLINES and their passengers have been warned to brace for a "potentially massive surge" in security costs at international airports as a result of a series of ASIO reports on airport vulnerabilities.

Airport umbrella group the Board of Airline Representatives of Australia says it knows of one airline that is already planning to spend $10 million on security upgrades and is looking at a final project worth up to $60m.

It warns airlines potentially face paying for upgrades around the country worth "many tens of millions of dollars", costs that will be passed on to consumers, without being told the rationale behind them.

BARA executive director Warren Bennett said ASIO began looking at airport security after the review several years ago by British expert John Wheeler and produced a series of "vulnerability reports", which had been passed on to airport operators.

He said operators were under pressure from the Office of Transport Security to respond.

He said BARA understood the reports covered issues such as perimeter access, CCTV coverage and internal access.

But he said it did not know what else was coming that might add up to $45m to $60m in one airport and there had been no indication from other airports as to their response.


Rest assured, GA will in part be snared up in this and share the burden of cost.

[Super Cecil]

OK, so there are some gaps in the processes that are slowly but surely being closed. The next step is the 20k MTOW trigger for screening. So what next Super Cecil, will you be saying that all GA aircraft are potentially terrorist weapons? Perhaps they are and we should screen everyone and everything before it leaves the ground.
Be careful of what you wish for.


Gaps? Gaping wide chasm's maybe. Yes they think that GA machinery could be used, but so can anything from a semi trailer fuel tanker down to any car could carry enough to do major damage in any major city. Are the same measures taken with those? Apart from those with DG and truck licence's having ASIO files I doubt anything.

The point I'm trying make make that you ignore is anything done has not made any difference, nor will it. It is tokenism. Australians are getting more and more gullible if they believe this will make any difference. It will be even worse when the next generation of "Pete's baby bonus" critters get older, he single handedly has lowered Australian IQ by 30 points in one stupid move.

[YPJT]

May I suggest you familiarise yourself with the risk assessment process. If after that you are still of the opinion that security measures acheives nothing more than tokenism, yoiu should avail yourself to the various industry consultative conferences and workshops that take place. You will be given the opportunity to put your views forward, have them minuted and where appropriate and justified, have them actioned by the department. Having an anonymous sook on PPRUNE though doesn't count.

[Super Cecil]

So somebody getting on an airliner with a weapon is a lower risk than a pilot who has his own aircraft on the field?

"various industry consultative conferences and workshops" bewdy one that, like they take any notice.

Are you an industry consultant and for a huge fee has made some of these recommendations?

May I suggest you familiarise yourself with the real world and have a look what actually goes on.

Having an anonymous sook on PPRUNE though doesn't count.
Today 09:11

I notice you didn't leave your name and address, too sooky?

[YPJT]

May I suggest you familiarise yourself with the real world and have a look what actually goes on. :hmm:

Are you an industry consultant and for a huge fee has made some of these recommendations?
No but I am an industry professional who deals on a daily basis with all aspects of aviation compliance including security.

[Super Cecil]

compliance

Say's it all really. :8

[Worrals in the wilds]

May I suggest you familiarise yourself with the risk assessment process.

Out of interest, do the relevant departments risk assess this stuff or is it all done using the worst case scenario principle? I think a lot of people in the industry get the impression that the regional screening, safety pin banning etc is primarily a governmental butt-covering / PR exercise rather than a measured response to a perceived threat. I'd love to be wrong, but that's certainly the prevailing opinion around here.

The increasing divide between airport security and other infrastructure security (such as ports, government buildings and shopping centres) is annoying and frustrating aviation workers. I realise ASIO et al are not in the habit of releasing their information, but given the (fortunate) lack of incidents and few terrorism related arrests since 9/11 people are starting to get sceptical, particularly as it the security measures are getting increasingly worse even though the risk level has remained the same (publically at least).

There are many ways to create public carnage that don't involve aircraft.

[bushy]

I'm a member of the local Memo club, and the magnetic strip on my membership card opens the gate for me to get in. I just wave my wallet near the lock, and it opens.
But I guess that is too hard for aviation.

[Eljay]

Get over it fellas, and look on the bright side.:ugh:

At least our aircraft are reasonably safe now locked away behind a security fence, at overnight stops.

Stops all the yobbo vandals that used to get about.

[Super Cecil]

Stops all the yobbo vandals that used to get about.

That's the point it doesn't, anybody can gain access.

[VH-XXX]

Aviation security is actually pretty good!

After boarding the Spirit of Tasmania (note: this is a ship) around half an hour ago, I was subject to a "level 1" security scan as I left the vehicle area. I removed all my coins, wallet and phone from my pockets and was scanned with a magic wand. To have the scan done I had to hold my arms out away from my sides. To do this I had to put my bag on the ground that theoretically could have contained my AK47, mini14, 4 semi auto pistols and home made bombs. I then asked why my bag wasn't scanned to which he replied "this is only a level one scan on ones person" Tell what the :mad: istrye point of a level one scan and how does it enhance maritime security?

What a joke !!! (not to mention a waste of time and money)

[Checkboard]

May I suggest you familiarise yourself with the risk assessment process.

May I suggest you familiarise yourself with the cost-benefit analysis process.

Business speak :yuk::rolleyes:

[Jay Arr]

Cooma: Went down there some months back and wanted to pop into town for lunch. To get out of the airfield one person has to swipe any card from a wallet with a magnetic strip (I think there is a phone no. if you haven't got a c/c). "Click", gate unlocks and the card reader on the exterior will remember your details for when you come back. Supposedly....

Sure enough, we come back 2.5 hours later and the reader doesn't know us. There's that phone number, I guess. Or then again, why not just climb up on the window sill alongside the fence and just hop the fence?!

What would you do? What would Osama's mate do?

We sure didn't want to stuff around ringing a number and waiting 45-60 mins to come sort it out. And Osama's mate really just could NOT be less interested in YCOM. It's true!

[YPJT]

Checkboard, I dislike corporate wankwords as much as the next guy and if that's how I came across then I guess that's my fault. The point which I am trying to make is that what some percieve as gaping holes in security are a deliberate graduated response based on a localised risk context. Do you really think that the same level of security is required at a regional airport with a couple of turbo prop RPT flts a day or even a week, as what is required for one of the major 11 airports around the country?

On one hand we have pilots saying ASICs, fences, screening etc is all too much, then others who say that the lower standards for certain airports make security a joke. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I believe the graduated response to be appropriate. Anyone who thinks that their local airport has major flaws in security can contact the OTS. I am sure they will gladly take your opinion on board and start pushing for increased security at the lower end of town. But as has been said before, it won't be the government that pays for it.

[Worrals in the wilds]

I guess the question a lot of people at the CTFR airports are asking is, what is the actual risk to their facility? There may of course be a risk, but if so the department has been really lax about publicizing it. Given the number of charming, well rounded individuals (not) that work for the D of I that is hardly surprising (I know at least one of them was drummed out of the army for bad people skills, which says it all really :}).

Managing risk at a government level requires constant PR about the risk. AQIS did this particularly well during the UK foot and mouth disease outbreak, where pax would stand in line for two hours to be searched and thank the inspectors for their vigilance. That was due to a concerted media campaign educating Australians about the adverse impact F&M would have on our economy and the public were overwhelmingly supportive about personal inconvenience for the greater good.

If the D of I wants aviation workers to take their enhanced measures seriously, they need to tell them why. Otherwise it comes across as beaurocracy gone mad and power tripping by government wankers. Additionally, one of the best defences against aviation terrorism is aviation workers, who number in the tens of thousands across the nation's major airports and can see and report more than the largest government department. The vast majority are also very anti-terrorism and only too happy to help the cause. Alienate them and the department neuters one of their best intelligence sources, and alienating them is all they seem to have achieved since the latest departmental rebirth.

Having had a certain amount to do with the new department, I agree with YPJT that in the event of complaints all they will do is increase measures across the board until everyone has to suffer like the major airports. In the meantime, you are free to drive whatever you like into your local footy ground / Westfield / entertainment centre without fear or favour, because despite the tens of thousands of people who congregate in these places daily, they don't seem to count as 'infrastructure'. :ugh:

[The PM]

geez, we can't win here in the Vegas of the West! Just a few months ago there were stories and criticism in quite a few of the national media outlets about lax security and the gate codes being available from airside and now people are having their say when measures are taken to protect the gate codes.....

Dubbo airport PIN taped to security gate | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/travel/news/dubbo-airport-pin-number-taped-to-security-gate/story-fn32891l-1225852130691)

Cec, I saw your letter to the editor in the local rag,and you made a (valid IMHO) point about lack of screening of passengers.then again,how often are passengers at your home airport of Armidale screened ? About as often as Dubbo passengers are.The arrangements in placein Dubbo today, while far from perfect, are as a direct consequence of the above newspaper article.

You weren't travelling with the helicopter driver we refused to let out of the terminal last week by any chance? My understanding is that he is also from Armidale.Dubbo City Council have given us very strict instructions if people other than our passengers want us to let them out of the terminal gates: we can't do it, even for people we personally know and have to ring the council airport manager to let them out.

Finally, why didn't yoo ring me to say yoo were coming through? You owe me a lunch! :ok:

[Runaround Valve]

I visited an Australian General Aviation airport in a major city some 15 months ago. On the inside of the gate was taped the four numbers needed to get access. Only needed a mirror to read them.
Never been back, maybe things have been tightened up.

[VH-XXX]

Never been back, maybe things have been tightened up.

Nope! Nothing has changed.

[Sunfish]

I visited not one but Two security controlled airports.

At one we had to climb the fence for my girlfriend to find a bush to pee in.

At another the security fence ended one hundred metres from the terminal.

Then there are the infinite number of hangars that have a door one side of the fence that open onto the tarmac.

[Angle of Attack]

Let's Face it there is NO security so why debate the point, I prefer to just keep it secret! ^^;