Helicopter missing in the Mourne Mountains, & tributes to AJ

[Pink Panther]

With fatalities.:(

BBC News - 'Several dead' as helicopter crashes in Mourne Mountains (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11613622)

A number of people are feared dead after a helicopter crash in the Mourne Mountains in County Down on Saturday afternoon.
It is not known how many people were on board but local MLA Jim Wells said he believed that several had been killed.
He added that it had happened in an area known locally as Leitrim Lodge between Hilltown and Rostrevor.
Eyewitnesses reported that an aircraft was in distress in the area at about 1600 BST.
Police are leading the operation assisted by the Mourne Mountain Rescue Team.
A police spokesperson said that the Air Accident Investigation Authority had been informed.

[cybermega]

Seems pretty serious indeed - 2 medevac helis, and 1 psni heli in attendance, multiple ground ambulances and mountain rescue teams also.

[LOONRAT]

Not Haughey Air S76. We are all safely on the ground. Sincere condolences.

[Willows]

Terrible news. :( Sincere condolences.

[md 600 driver]

Is the 109 confirmed ?

[cybermega]

confirmed:

Police said, however, that the exact nature of injuries was still being established after an aircraft went down in the Mourne Mountains in Co Down on Saturday.

Mountain Rescue teams and Coastguard are also involved in the search operation launched after reports that a light aircraft or helicopter had crashed at 4pm.

It is now believed a helicopter has crashed at the Leitrim Lodge picnic area near Hilltown in the mountain range.

Jim Wells, Democratic Unionist representative for the area, said the local community was shocked and now feared the worst.

''South Down has been hit by tragedies of this type over the years,'' he said. ''It looks like we have had another accident which looks like it has led to multiple deaths.''

The Mournes area is internationally renowned for its picturesque scenery. The mountain range, set on the coastline of south Co Down, is designated as an area of outstanding natural beauty.

The highest mountain in the range, Slieve Donard, is nearly 3,000 feet high.

But changeable weather patterns along the coast and the presence of the mountains have led to tragedy in the past.

In June last year three men were killed when their light aircraft crashed into a field near a private landing strip at Kilkeel, Co Down.

The pilot, Hugh McKnight, who was a 53-year-old former police officer, was returning from the TT races in the Isle of Man with Andrew Burden and Stephen Annett, both aged 24.

The coastal community has also been hit by fishing tragedies in recent years.

The death of four police officers killed when their police 4x4 vehicle crashed on a winding road near Kilkeel in November 2008 also shocked the local community.

Members of the public on Saturday spotted a helicopter in the Mournes area and believed its engine sounded abnormally loud.

The emergency services later received reports that an aircraft was in difficulties.

Chartered helicopter flights in the region are a relatively common sight, with golfing groups and wedding parties known to have used them in the past. There was no immediate confirmation of the nature of the tragic flight.

Emergency services were at the scene of the crash site on Saturday night and the area was cordoned off.

Air accident investigators have also been notified.

South Down MP Margaret Ritchie said the area is finding it difficult to come to terms with the news.

"On behalf of the people of South Down and those I represent, I offer my deepest and most heartfelt sympathies to the families of the bereaved at this most tragic time," she said.

"This is a terrible reality, almost too difficult to comprehend and we can only imagine it is all too real and awful for the families bereaved.

"I'm in no doubt that the people of South Down will stand in solidarity with those that have lost loved ones and the survivors of this most terrible tragedy.

"Sincere thanks and appreciation must go to all involved in the rescue and recovery operation which could take a little time because darkness has now descended."

The MP added: "Anybody with knowledge of the local landscape should give it to the police and emergency to help the rescue operation and lessen the anxieties and distress for all involved."

Danny Kennedy, an Ulster Unionist Party representative, said: "I was shocked to hear about the crash and am deeply concerned for the people involved.

"While there are no details as yet my thoughts and prayers are with the passengers and their families who must be deeply worried at this time."


Daily Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8083366/Four-feared-dead-in-helicopter-crash.html)

A number of people are feared dead after a helicopter crash in the Mourne Mountains in County Down on Saturday afternoon.
It is not known how many people were on board but local MLA Jim Wells said he believed that several had been killed.
He added that happened near in an area known locally as Leitrim Lodge between Hilltown and Rostrevor.
The aircraft is believed to have left St Angelo Airport in Enniskillen earlier on Saturday.
It is understood to be a medium-sized Agusta helicopter capable or carrying up to eight people.
Eyewitnesses first reported an aircraft in distress in the Mournes at about 1600 BST.
Police are leading the operation assisted by the Mourne Mountain Rescue Team, the Fire and Rescue Service and the Ambulance Service.
Keiron Tourish, reporting for the BBC from the scene, said a picnic area at Leitrim Lodge had been cordoned off.
A police spokesperson said that the Air Accidents Investigation Branch had been informed.
South Down MP Margaret Ritchie said she was "very saddened" to hear of the crash.
"On behalf of the people of South Down and those I represent, I offer my deepest and most heartfelt sympathies to the families of the bereaved at this most tragic time."
initial indications appear to be Controlled flight into terrain

BBC Northern Ireland (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11613622?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

[Liffy 1M]

Here is a photo of the aircraft, taken earlier this year:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4002/4490310448_3b58579a8f_z.jpg

[PoloJamie]

There's a little bit of an update on BBC News now:
BBC News - Three dead after Mourne Mountains helicopter crash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11615219)

Three people from south-east England have died in a helicopter crash in the Mourne Mountains on Saturday.
The dead are the pilot and two passengers who were in Northern Ireland for a day of shooting in County Fermanagh.
The PSNI is speaking to the Metropolitan Police about contacting the families of those who died.
Air accident investigators are due at the crash scene on Sunday morning.
The helicopter is believed to have taken off from Enniskillen, County Fermanagh, and crashed about 1600 BST on Saturday near Hilltown.
Mountain rescue teams, the Ambulance service and the Fire and Rescue Service were involved in the crash aftermath.
The helicopter crashed in an area known locally as Leitrim Lodge between Hilltown and Rostrevor.
It is understood to be a medium-sized Agusta helicopter capable of carrying up to eight people.
South Down MP Margaret Ritchie said she was "very saddened" to hear of the crash.
"On behalf of the people of South Down and those I represent, I offer my deepest and most heartfelt sympathies to the families of the bereaved at this most tragic time."


RIP

[ShyTorque]

Initial indications appear to be Controlled flight into terrain

What initial indications are there?

[Francis Frogbound]

ST;

No indications whatsoever. Then again I've yet to hear of a 109 that could carry 8 people (legally anyway).

Straight away the uninformed speculation starts. I don't know why the AAIB bother, they should just read the posts from the "experts" here and in the general media.

I had a text naming the pilot earlier, if it is true then that pilot is a very experienced operator.

FF

[John R81]

BBC TV news just now.

Weather reported to be good

Helicopter reported to be in trouble by persons on the ground, before crash.

Investigation continues

[vfr440]

FF
The early A109s have a seating capacity of 8. That's 2 up front, of course, and three not-too-wide seats at the rear of the cabin looking forward. Most cabin configurations feature two seats, rear facing and back-to-back with the front seats. So a total of 7.

However.... Agusta (used to anyway) had a bus-seat config that was a three place, again not-very-wide, bench seat forward facing, and picking up on the same hard points for the conventional quasi 'Club' seat. It wasn't very useful, frankly, and payload in the early models meant very short flights if you had 8 up :O (Not much fuel!)

The only use I saw it ever put to was for FOIs to sit and monitor the crew's performance............

just being a pedant! :ugh: ~ VFR

[JTobias]

Liffy

If I'm not mistaken the photo above is taken at Barton which is where I think I saw it. Terrible shame.

Joel :sad:

[Francis Frogbound]

vfr440;

Thanks for that. You learn something new every day.

FF

[Osh-kosh-bgosh]

Terrible news.
The heli was booked in to land at Caernarfon Airport at 1700 L and there was no sign of it. Got a departure notice that they left EGAB at 1602 L therefore they must have crashed soon after. Horrible to think I was one of the last people to speak with the pilot.

Sincere condolences from the staff at Caernarfon Airport

[757_Driver]

Anyone got any info on the pilot - please pm me. I work with a guy (757 captain) who is also am ATPL(h) and flies a private 109 out of surrey for a businessman. I don't know the reg of his machine. Condolences to all involved, won't make it any better for those concerned if it isn't my mate, but rather hoping it isn't :sad:

[JoeM]

757_Driver, I sadly know the Pilot...he wasn't a 757 Pilot but he was a good bloke.

[Senior Pilot]

The pilot was named in the Daily Telegraph report: see post number 8, above.

[memories of px]

isnt the pilot named there referring to a different accident?

[dontdoit]

Please read before you post! The pilot "named" in the Telegraph & BBC reports was the pilot of the IoM originating light aircraft which crashed in Kilkeel last June, NOT the pilot of the crashed A109. Sympathies to the families & friends of all concerned (for both accidents).

[MOSTAFA]

FF

I regularly flew an A109 with 8 POB (me included) for an hour and with a diversion reserve (and IFR).

Why knock it.

[Helinut]

Not wanting to disagree with a moderator, but I am not sure the Telegraph article does name the pilot of THIS accident. It is not well written, but I rather think the named pilot related to the earlier fixed wing accident mentioned in the article.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Helinut that's how I read it as well.

Condolences to the families.

[FloaterNorthWest]

Kilkeel Light Aircraft crash - June 2009 (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Kilkeel-Plane-Crash-At-Least-Three-Killed-As-Light-Aircraft-Crashes-In-County-Down-N-Ireland/Article/200906215303164)

[heliboy999]

Latest on the BBC website.

Film showing the crash site.

BBC News - Three dead after Mourne Mountains helicopter crash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11615219)

HB999

[thewarnerbros]

Typical pprune - full of rubbish. Pilots are better re-training (go and get some proper jobs you lot) ... If you want to hear something truthful, watch the BBC News ... :eek:

[MICK6R4]

Condolences to families of all concerned,i was flying not far from this area at the time and there was low cloud on mountain tops, RIP

[Senior Pilot]

My apologies: I misread the Telegraph report :\

And yes, I have often operated A109's with 8 POB, but generally not a lot of range to go with the payload!

[ShyTorque]

FF
I regularly flew an A109 with 8 POB (me included) for an hour and with a diversion reserve (and IFR).
Why knock it.

Me too. Although this mark couldn't do it, later, more powerful versions can.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Unfortunately the BBC seem to have copied the Telegraph.

[alouette]

When did the media ever report objectively about helicopter accidents? They always have a knack for sensation and lust when it comes to these things :mad:

[RVDT]

In June last year?

Different accident.

[Swiss Cheese]

Condolences to the pilot and passengers' families.

Acft was Redhill based, and well looked after. Pilot was experienced.

I tend to ignore eye witnesses, without an H rating, who comment on engine noise before an incident.

Debris field suggests high energy impact. The Mourne Mntns can be tricky. Has anyone got reliable METAR?

Very sad.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01745/ChopperCrash_1745945c.jpg

[rotorspeed]

Very tragic.

More info at Princes William and Harry 'shocked' after Charles Stisted killed in helicopter crash | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1323431/Princes-William-Harry-shocked-Charles-Stisted-killed-helicopter-crash.html)

Princes William and Harry were in deep shock last night after a friend of the Royal Family was killed in a helicopter crash.
Charlie Stisted, 47 was one of three men returning home from a hunting trip when their aircraft came down in County Down, Northern Ireland yesterday afternoon.

Mr Stisted was head of the Guards Polo Club - whose president is the Duke of Edinburgh - and was a close friend of the Prince of Wales and Princes William and Harry.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/25/article-1323431-0BC11902000005DC-190_468x402.jpg Royal connections: Charles Stisted with the Duke of Edinburgh
Last night a Clarence House spokesman said: 'The Prince of Wales, The Duchess of Cornwall, Prince William and Prince Harry are all shocked and deeply saddened by this terrible tragedy.
'Their Royal Highnesses thoughts and prayers are with the families of those killed at this dreadful time.'


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/24/article-1323431-0BC0BB39000005DC-354_468x501.jpg Tragic: Ian Wooldridge, pictured with the Queen at the Queen's Cup polo tournament at Guards Polo Club last year

Also killed in the crash were construction tycoon Ian Wooldridge and the pilot of the stricken craft. Mr Wooldridge was another polo enthusiast who had links to the Royal Family.
A member of the public had reported the aircraft being in distress over the Mourne mountain range in County Down and rescue teams found the wreckage.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/24/article-1323431-013495DA0000044D-892_468x311.jpg Shocked: Crash victim Charlie Stisted was chief executive of the Guards Polo Club and a good friend of Princes William and Harry

Air accident investigators were yesterday beginning a probe into Saturday’s crash – the latest in a series of tragedies to blight the remote region.
Relatives at Mr Wooldridge’s family estate in Windlesham, Surrey, were devastated yesterday at the death of the businessman, who with his 50-year-old brother Graham, ran a £40million-a-year firm specialising in demolition and construction.
A worker at the 230-acre Twelve Oaks estate said the family would not be speaking to anyone about what had happened.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/24/article-1323431-027B53A2000005DC-81_468x307.jpg Doomed: An Agusta helicopter similar to the one in which Mr Stisted, Mr Wooldridge and a third man were killed

At the home of Julie Fereday, Mr Wooldridge’s ex-partner and the mother of his 21-year-old son, Charlie, a friend said she was ‘in mourning’ and was not making any comment.

Speaking from the doorstep of the terraced house in Crowthorne, Berkshire, the friend said they had been informed of the tragedy by police in Northern Ireland.
Mr Wooldridge was a keen polo player and active member of the Guards club, where the Prince of Wales and Princes William and Harry are regular participants.
Through his links with Irish construction giants the Harcourt Group he set up a lucrative sponsorship deal for the sport’s prestigious Queen’s Cup, which celebrated its 50th anniversary this year.
He was also a sponsor of his local football team – Windlesham United – and provided their team strip for games.
South Down MP Margaret Ritchie, who visited rescue teams at the site, said: ‘The local community is in absolute shock.’
In June last year three men were killed when their plane crashed into a field near a private landing strip at Kilkeel, County Down.




EGAC (Belfast City 25 miles away) at 15.20 UTC Saturday was 01012KT, 9k, FEW017 SCT023. Seems Mourne mountains in area of accident 2200ft ish tops.

[ChristopherRobin]

I think I'd be pissed off if I owned EI-DJO

[Fake Sealion]

Quite agree -although the caption says "similar" you would think 5 seconds spent with imaging software to erase the registration is not unreasonable?

This happens frequently with media reporting of aircraft accidents

Recently I recall they had a photo of the WRONG type with reg clear to see:ugh:

[hands_on123]

I am surprised this wasn't a two-crew job, given the 'VIP' nature of the passengers. I wouldn't have thought cost was an issue.

[Keepitup]

My thoughts are with the families of the passengers and also the Pilot!, not much has been mentioned about the poor pilot, RIP.

Also why show a picture of a 109E when there are plenty of pictures of N2NR on the web.

[rotorspeed]

In light twins (355s, 135s, 109s) and singles single pilot operation is not only perfectly acceptable but usually sensible, providing that pilot is well qualified, experienced and competent. There is surely rarely any situation in which flying workload makes a second pilot highly desirable, but what is certain is that the extra 85kg odd of pilot will always reduce some or all of payload available, climb performance, cruise speed and particularly range. Given an IFR trip I'd usually take fuel over a second pilot, for sure! But there again, I do accept the company can be nice! Of course medium twins are obviously different with a P2 having less influence on all the above.

[hands_on123]

In light twins (355s, 135s, 109s) and singles single pilot operation is not only perfectly acceptable but usually sensible, providing that pilot is well qualified, experienced and competent. There is surely rarely any situation in which flying workload makes a second pilot highly desirable, but what is certain is that the extra 85kg odd of pilot will always reduce some or all of payload available, climb performance, cruise speed and particularly range. Given an IFR trip I'd usually take fuel over a second pilot, for sure! But there again, I do accept the company can be nice! Of course medium twins are obviously different with a P2 having less influence on all the above.

Understood, but in my opinion, two pilots will always be safer than two engines. Most accidents are weather related, or as a result of the pilot making and error of judgement and getting the aircraft into an unsafe configuration (eg overpitching), or hitting something. Another pilot there to monitor and help out would lessen those risks.

[Wizzard]

There is surely rarely any situation in which flying workload makes a second pilot highly desirable

Utter tosh! Breathtaking ignorance:ugh:

[rotorspeed]

Well Wizzard, perhaps you'd like to expand and explain why you think it is not rare to need a second pilot for GA ops in a light twin?

[Thomas coupling]

Please let's move along - SPIFR is totally and utterly acceptable in this day and age. The technology caters for this in the extreme. PROVIDED the pilot is adequately qualified to fly SPIFR - should the weather dictate, OR is competent enough if flying VFR only to steer well clear of IMC.
Don't look to the operation or a/c for fault...look to the pilot. After all, statistically nearly 70% of all accidents are pilot error.
The CAA dictate a 2 pilot ethos and this is based on medical grounds/risk, not workload.

[Geoffersincornwall]

....... it's all very well pontificating but the reality is that whilst SPIFR may be the zenith of a professional helicopter pilot's qualifications we get precious little practice, little training and dream about a good set of sim sessions to set us up properly. When cost isn't an issue it makes sense to go two-up. Even if all the co pilot does is keep the (up to 12) pax in order during embarkation and more particularly during disembarkation when they have a horrible habit of baling out whilly nilly during the 2 minute run-down despite being told not to. (its my helicopter and I'll do as I want to syndrome).

Two crew is the way ahead as far as I am concerned unless and until we all get SPIFR recurrent training every 6 months in a suitable sim that goes beyond a quick wizz around the ILS pattern.

G. :ok:

[ShyTorque]

A few thoughts provoked by comments already posted by others on this accident:

Was this aircraft carrying out an ILS or any other type of IFR letdown? Does instrument flying training/recency therefore have something to do with this accident? I must have missed an initial report...

I think basic mission planning / contingency planning is perhaps one thing the AAIB might be looking at closely, as well as other things, in this case.

I first flew SPIFR in 1979 and have done so for much of my career since, although I have quite a lot of multi-crew IFR time too. More recently I flew a 109 SPIFR for some years before the owner decided he might like someone else to have a chance of landing it if I popped my clogs in flight.

Medical grounds only was the rationale behind the decision; perhaps he thought I looked a bit peaky...

However, the CAA do not mandate two pilot ops for our type of operations.

[memories of px]

i think it a bit early for you guys to call this a CFIT accident, the pilot had a lot of experience operating in this area, have you seen the service bulletin caa has put out regarding 109's?

[Swiss Cheese]

ATA 65 Tail Rotor Drive – Tail Rotor Special Hub Plug - Inspection
Manufacturer(s): Agusta S.p.A
Applicability: A109A and A109AII helicopters, all serial numbers if equipped with tail
rotor special hub plug part number (P/N) 109-0133-18-103.
Reason: A mistaken value of the tightening torque of the tail rotor special hub plug
P/N 109-0133-18-103 has been discovered in the Maintenance Manual of
A109A and A109AII helicopters.
The investigation carried out by Agusta has revealed that the wrong value
of the tightening torque was introduced with the revision 9 of the A109A
and A109AII Helicopter Maintenance Manual dated 15 June 2009.
This condition, if not corrected, could ultimately lead to tail rotor
malfunction.
Effective Date: 25 October 2010
Required action(s)
and Compliance
Time(s):
Required as indicated, unless accomplished previously:
Within the next 5 flight hours after the effective date of this AD but no later
than 30 November 2010, whichever occurs first, verify the tightening
torque of the special tail rotor hub plug P/N 109-0133-18-103, and do the
applicable corrective actions, in accordance with the instructions of Agusta
Alert Bollettino Tecnico 109-132.




I understand this AD does not refer to N2NR. It is a Red Herring.

[206 jock]

Emergency AD - No 2010 - 0222 - E: 22nd October 2010. May be a Red Herring......

So the Emergency AD that was published the day before the accident, might have had something to do with it, huh?

Who needs air crash investigations when you have Pprune, heh?

[DFC]

The heli was booked in to land at Caernarfon Airport at 1700 L and there was no sign of it. Got a departure notice that they left EGAB at 1602 L therefore they must have crashed soon after. Horrible to think I was one of the last people to speak with the pilot.



EGAB to EGCK does not take the flight close to the Mourne Mountains. As far as I can tell the accident site would be about 10+ miles off the direct track between the two aerodromes.

From the initial uncertainty about the POB, I wonder if a flight plan was flied? (It would have to be for the direct route which crosses the FIR boundary).

Why would such a flight avoid taking the direct routing option and use a route that took it over high ground and would cause an extended over-water flight compared to the direct route?

[ZanderDuYoYo]

The mods will probably kill this comment...but we'll see ?

Yes, it was a post of low intellect and totally unsuited to a thread about a fatal accident. The number of posts on this thread showing an astounding lack of sensitivity along with wild, unfounded speculation has saddened me.

Senior Pilot

[Glass Half Empty]

Any info on the pilots name? A Pm would be fine. A friend of a friend who knows someone who flies for the company and is not able to get in touch. Many thanks.

[jackal301273]

the pilot was my uncle and they havent named him yet as some of the family have not been notified

[Whirlygig]

Jackal ... sincere condolences to you and your family.

Whirls

[Jarvy]

Condolences to your family, I flew with your uncle a number of times and he will be missed.

[memories of px]

it seems youre blocking getting messages glass half empty

[heliski22]

Jackal - let me join Whirls in her sentiments, condolences to you and your family

22

[appleavi8or]

I am truly disappointed by the scurrilous, disingenuous speculation cropping up on here.

How about we make a base assumption that the pilot was professional in his planning and execution of this sortie and that he was fully competent and qualified to conduct it? Perhaps we can also make the leap of faith that he also flew in accordance with the regulations in place.

How about we also assume that his name has not yet been released for good reason? - NoK desire, positive identification issues or some other reason unknown to us general public.

I know this is a rumour network but some of the comments are close to offensive. Three men have died and there are a whole lot of distraught people trying to come to terms with their loss. This is a tragedy which will takes years for loved ones to come to terms with. Perhaps we can hold in mind the effect our comments might have when these poor people inevitably read this thread.

May I humbly suggest that if anyone wants to open a debate about single pilot IFR, poor weather flying in the mountains, aircrew not being qualified to fly a particular sortie, they start another thread.

I suspect some clever sod will respond to this post in some 'put-down, right to know' way but frankly, I don't give a t+ss what your opinion is. Let us be responsible with our speculation and have a mind for those people most affected by this accident.

Rant stowed and secure.

Jackal. I believe I knew your Uncle and I posted this before I saw your comments. It stands in any event and I wish to add to the two recent expressions of sympathy. I considered him a friend and an excellent pilot - dodgy in his taste of TV programmes over a three day Bessbrook but someone I shared some challenging and interesting flying experiences with. Both my wife and I knew him for over 25 years and I know the world will be sadder and quieter without him. My thoughts are with you and your family at this terrible time.

[jackal301273]

thankyou to you both, i never thught he'd go like this, it was a shock he was a good pilot

[PamL]

So very sorry for the families and friends of those lost.
Sincere condolences from Myself and My Family.
We lost our Son/Brother - also a Helicopter Pilot - in a crash September '09.

[DFC]

Regarding FIRs, a flight plan would be required for this route since it started in the Scottish FIR EGPX and ended in the London FIR EGTT.


I recomed that you take some time to consult the PPL confuser!! :D

A flight plan is required for a flight that crosses an international FIR boundary. The London / Scottish boundary is not an international one.

The Scottish / Shannon one is and so is the Shannon / London one.

My question assumes that the flight was operated perfectly but for some reason chose to remain within the UK FIRS which causes and extended routing, a need to fly over high ground and a need to use a turn point in the middle of the Irish sea on an extended over-water leg.

Why not simply fly VFR (or IFR) on the direct route over low level terrain and a shorter sea crossing?

[jumpseater]

Regarding flight plan filing
CAP694 CH1 Para 2
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%20694.pdf

As per post above #63, flight was within uk airspace so not required. A109 from memory, 'loaded' weight of less than 5,700kgs, so not required there either.

It is advisable that a plan is filed for a journey over water where distance exceeds 10NM from UK coast, and remote areas where Search and Rescue could be difficult.

In my experience it's not unusual for a VFR flight UK-NI-UK to not file a VFR plan. The rationale for those decisions should be another thread. Post #17 indicates that he probably booked out his departure, and his destination knew he was coming and when to expect him.

[hihover]

Well said that man! I could not have put it better myself.

People need to stop offering their speculative cr@p based on what they think could have happened if.....

One of the team is dead, he was a character and he will be dreadfully missed by many. His passengers are dead, they will also be dreadfully missed. If anyone feels the need to impress the forum with their investigative prowess and super knowledge, go and speculate somewhere else.

Tam Macklin

[DFC]

However, if the pilot was flying on a UK issued JAA license rather than a FAA cert - then he would have been restricted to only flying in UK airspace (in accordance with FAA regs).
Hence why he might have been VFR and remaining N of the border.


Yes a direct route would go via the Shannon FIR and thus would require a flight plan so with the absence of a flight plan it would appear that the aircraft was intending to route clear of the Shannon FIR.

I had thought of the Licence / Reg issue but even routing around the Shannon FIR would cause the flight to be outside the UK during part of the flight (especially over the Sea) so if that was the case then I am sure the pilot would have remained in the UK at all times i.e. route via Scotland.

How easy is it for a pilot who wants to fly direct in such a case to file a flight plan from a remote location these days i.e. with no fax or AFPEX access? Would the hassle be enough to discourage a direct route?

[Jarvy]

Agree with Hihover, the pilot was a one off and I've had a few laughs with him over the last 10years or so. None of us know what happened and wild speculation doesn't help.
Wait until the official report then discuss not the other way round!

[StAn gelo]

EGAB to EGCK does not take the flight close to the Mourne Mountains. As far as I can tell the accident site would be about 10+ miles off the direct track between the two aerodromes

The helicopter flew to Baronscourt when it left EGAB.

[Hell Man]

An aviation forum where an aircraft crash is reported and which occurs within the region from where a large number of members are subscribed - you are going to have to accept that, of all the places in the world, this is exactly where you will find speculation.

Those of you who knew the persons involved will be offended by anything other than condolences and factual reports and some of the emotive comments posted prove this point. Sorry to you for the lack of sensibility on the part of some posters - I doubt if its intentional but this is the nature of the beast (both online forums and the speculations which arise after an event such as this).

Those who didnt know those involved - try to form your comments in such a way so as to avoid offending those who may be reading and who knew the victims.

In my view (and I am trying to be objective given that I haven't a clue who was involved and am unfamiliar with that territory) it is unreasonable to expect zero speculation on such a forum. Frankly, what else can participants do except speculate?

Much of the tension is caused by the fact that this has happened in your own back yard and where some people know each other. To prove the point, a notice: "Helo Down in Qinghai Province" (China) would be far less liekly to draw emotive responses (unless it were a Chinese forum without restrictions).

I see that even Senior Pilot has felt disappointed by some of the posts.

If the forum moderators feel strongly about the quality of responses (which means they care) then they should put up a 'code of conduct' to remind those with no emotional connection to the event to 'mind their words' and to protect the relatives and freinds of those involved.

If you want this to be a condolences thread with the only other published information being details released in the media - you should say so.

Pilots/others taking wild stabs as what may have happened and doing so in a way which might upset those close to the victims - stop it.

The best any of us can hope for in situations like these is that something useful is gained from the tragedy, something hopefully which might save someone else in the future!

HM

[Gordy]

apple

I know this is a rumour network but some of the comments are close to offensive. Three men have died and there are a whole lot of distraught people trying to come to terms with their loss. This is a tragedy which will takes years for loved ones to come to terms with. Perhaps we can hold in mind the effect our comments might have when these poor people inevitably read this thread.

Firstly, let me state that I feel the pain of the family, and mean no disrespect what so ever.

As far as I am concerned....rumor network it is...Condolences to the family etc...yada yada yada......

Maybe we can all speculate and LEARN...... funny how when ever there is a fatality in the UK...you people all want to wait for the AIIB or whatever it is called...yet have an accident on this side of the pond and you are all over it...

If ever I die in an accident...please feel free to speculate and ask questions.... Please feel free to learn from my demise....if it turns out I was stupid...and someone learns to not follow my lead...then my loss is their gain....

Let the speculation continue.....with all due respect.

[jayteeto]

There are always thousands of 'ifs', usually they are irrelevant and armchair investigators should be ashamed. Just remember, there isn't a law making you take the shortest route or the fastest route or even the best route. Some people fly routes because they just want to.........
Why go the same old same old same old if you can afford not to?? He went that waybecause he did!! The aircraft was a suitable type to do it, so why not? The Mourne mountains are very beautiful all year round.
This IS a rumour network, if you have a rumour then I will fight your corner to announce it. However criticizing an acceptable route choice or whether a flight plan wasn't filed (don't have to) or stating the actual cause (without proof) of an accident is a bit tacky......:sad:

[JimL]

Keep the discussion going; there are some extremely interesting facts emerging from this thread.

Jim

[Pink Panther]

As I understand it they were coming back from a shooting weekend, this might also have determened their route home staying within Uk FIR if their hardware was on board.

[Thomas coupling]

Get a life guys - this is the real world of rumour mongering in print here on Pprune, thats why it's so popular. You'd talk about it in the crewroom/office/bar so why not on here.

If you don't like it - move along and go elsewhere, loads of other helo forums.

This accident has the hallmarks of almost all the other helo / bad weather accidents: CFIT. Bad weather and off track (intentionally or otherwise). I've read many and I've been to quite a few in the aftermath.

The benefit of reading peoples views on here in the warnth of the house/office etc is that hopefully they might take some of the comments on board so that they are better prepared on the day they are tested :=

Good post Gordy.

[spreckley]

As yet the pilot remains unnamed, but if as his former colleague indicates he knew and flew out of Bessbrook, he would have been very familiar with the local terrain and weather and someone anyone would have been happy flying with.

[Whirlygig]

You'd talk about it in the crewroom/office/bar so why not on here.Because in the crew room, you know who you're talking to and who's listening - here, you don't (with a few exceptions!)

Cheers

Whirls

[Chopper Doc]

I think there is some confusion about flight plans. If you fly from the mainland of the UK to the Isle of Mann, Northern Ireland or the republic of Ireland then you need to file a flight plan as special branch (police) have an interest. If you are polite you might get away with filing the same day but they normally want 24 hours notice.

[Helinut]

Chopper Doc,

I think you will find that what you talk of is NOT a flight plan filed with ATC.

[spreckley]

eye witnesses living in Bessbrook have told a local cameraman that they saw the Augusta over the village on saturday. nothing offical. could have been revisitng old haunts?

[Jarvy]

Informing special branch is not the same as filing a flight plan. We can not learn anything from wild speculation.
I do know I would trust this pilot to fly me and my folks in any weather, anytime, anywhere.

[whatsarunway]

Eh guys, are we wondering why he crashed? Or are we wonder whether he crashed legally while sticking to all regulations ?


Too much speculation on a flight and area most of you know nothing about...

[stringfellow]

gordy, im new (ish) here, a humble ppl with a wish to survive. thank you for articulating a pprune issue that has puzzled me for years..... when i hear of a crash i speculate wildly, online, with pilot friends, in the pub with non pilot friends who ask me. why??? because by exploring all the issues speculatively i hope to learn from them which one day may keep me alive and make me a better pilot. a crash stimulates debate energetically which ill informed or not is better than no debate at all. isnt this just the reason for an online forum????

so if its cfit, incapacity, or just the engines stopped lets talk about it... even if we all prove to be wrong i for one could learn heaps from the discussion. what on earth is wrong with that.?? if god forbid i ever crash id love you all to talk endlessly about it in the hope that no one else does the same..... yes people have died, its tragic, a whole different issue and i cant begin to think how the families are coping,, but its not insensitive to talk about the events, it just isnt.

by the time the aaib report is published we will all have moved on, now is the time to discuss this. a close friend of mine was killed 13 months ago in a light piston,,,, still no sign of a report. so what are we supposed to do just sit tight???

the censoring of speculation on this forum has baffled me for a long time. its basic human nature, exploring the survival instinct. this is by no means linked to a lack of respect to the deceased and their loved ones, to whom i offer my profound condolences, i am not equipped to deal with what they are going through and wont try..... i just hope it never happens to me....

which is why i speculate in the meantime.

[Jarvy]

I will say again, I believe we learn nothing from wild speculation! If you wish to learn from others mistakes look at the AAIB reports.
We all have ideas about why people crash but to actually learn we must have the full details not parts of ,or speculation. I am not after censorship but rubbish about a flight plan(not needed) or the merits or not of N-reg (maybe another time) don't help or explain the reasons why.
I will say no more on the matter.
Jarvy

[Hedski]

To keep on thread;

I flew with the pilot in question on numerous occasions on AOC work both in the same aircraft on line check or positioning and in formation on film work and multi aircraft taskings.
He always had an opinion, sometimes a loud one, usually made me giggle and often brightened the passengers day. An entire day sat at Barton aerodrome awaiting pax springs to mind and it flew by. A good wind up merchant, ever heard the story of the Ops Inspector who while ramp checking him in a 206 actually believed him when he was told he absolutely never held a licence....:} Quality. You'd definitely hear him before you saw him.;)

A loving husband and father. Sincerest condolences to family and friends.

And yes he did know NI very well and may have been avoiding Irish airspace as he flew off a UK issued license but that doesn't matter now.

A character who will be missed.:(

H

[ShyTorque]

I first flew with this pilot about 25 years ago, after he changed the colour of his uniform. I later flew on operations in NI with him after he became qualified on type. I have also shared a day or two with him since, at Battersea and elsewhere, "lamp-swinging".

On the face of it, for now it's baffling to some why the accident happened. I'm shocked and very saddened by it. But I stick with my earlier comment, about what the AAIB will be looking at, and which was not aimed as a personal criticism.

[KERDUNKER]

Did he change from Marroon to Blue................ D.K or B.S ?

[SilsoeSid]

I will say again, I believe we learn nothing from wild speculation!

But we can still be reminded about the things we used to know, but have now forgotten!

[Francis Frogbound]

Hedski;

I believe I may have been with you that day at Barton. Faced with hours of sitting around he brightened my day and seemed to take great delight in shocking many of the Barton Flying Club members.

A highly experienced operator he was funny, loud and utterly outspoken, he was always mighty kind to me and was a fund of excellent knowledge as well as astonishingly blue stories and de-fenestrating character sketches of people in authority.

The world will be a much poorer place without this man (and a hell of a lot quieter!)

God rest him and bless his familly. Maybe its time for an old style goodbye from his colleagues.

FF

[long box]

Jakal,
Your uncle was a personal friend of mine for over 15 years, I rate him as a person and as a pilot, I was due to see him on Sunday so the news has hit home very hard, he was a complete one off and would always cheer the ops room up, I will miss him very much.

[heliboy999]

"Whippet one" has departed for the longest flight of all.

Thanks for the lessons taught, the stories told, the jokes repeated over and over again, Tarzan Ringtone going off in the middle of briefings,advice given and the times spent in various conversations about the way the world should work.

You will be missed by many.



Rest in Peace.

[jackal301273]

im not to sure at this time why he hasnt been named, as i think all the family have been informed so im as confused about it as you are. thanks for your condolences you guys

[SilsoeSid]

Made a note in my diary on the way here. Simply says: "Bugger".

Old St Peter's got a job on his hands !
RIP

[Cptcowboy]

As a ppl with only 5 years experience I have refrained from posting here.

But after 4 days of being asked about the incident I need to ask if someone will pm me.

I live in Chester, work in Surrey and sick of being asked my opinion on something I feel I can't answer. I have many colleagues who know the pax but no contact with the pilot!

My condolences are with the family of any Heli accident.

I have flown with many 109 drivers in the last 5 years and would like to know who is being talked about rather than listening to rumours!

[Hedski]

Sid,

I'm pretty sure I could imagine how the conversation will start:

****** arrives at the gates of heaven, St Peter says give me one good reason I should let you in.
****** replies: "Cos I've got more hours on NVG than you have f*cking angels in heaven, now p*ss off out o' me way ya daft c*nt!!!"

Sounds about right for him really.

H

[rod scott]

Hi Earl,
Now there's a name . NICK ROSS. Haven't seen or heard of Nick since IRAN 1978/79. Is he still alive???? Do you have a contact...tp or email????
Nick learnt about high alt landings in Iran when he hard landed at ???12000 feet ??? with an ALIII. Pushed the front wheel through the floor and screwed up the hydraulics. Quite an op getting him off the mountain.
Did a good job for a navy pilot.We all learnt from that which is a good thing cause it helps to keep us alive. Thanks Nick.

[rod scott]

Well stated Tam.
Rod

[hihover]

It took a sad moment like this for you to raise your head.

I hope you're doing well.

Tam

[jayteeto]

Just found out the name of the pilot. Its been a few years now since I last saw him, but I am gutted. I flew many hours with a legend, from NI tasking to an epic week long jolly to Malta. The Malta trip alone could make a best-selling book. If any family are still reading, PLEASE PLEASE release the name to the public, I think a legend like this would fill many many posts with stories and quotes. Let the aviationworld celebrate his life.

[SiClick]

A sad day indeed, he was last in my logbook in March 89, but I remember the day well, truly a character. RIP mate.
Condolences to the family

[spreckley]

seems psni a/c was hit by strong gust on take-off and went in on its side.

[MightyGem]

A PM from someone with the name would be appreciated chaps.

[MightyGem]

Many thanks for all the PMs. Various comments were leading me to that conclusion. I think I may have met him once, but obviously heard a lot about him. A sad day.

[ollieboy]

As a close friend and colleague of the pilot I have been asked by his immediate family to inform the aviation world of his identity. It is with great sadness that I do so. His full name is Anthony Joseph Smith, but will be remembered by all those who knew him simply as ‘AJ’. He was a true legend, once met never forgotten and I know many of you will have your stories and anecdotes to tell. Although he told it like it was, he had a heart of gold and adored his family. He was one of the best pilots I have ever had the privilege of working with and was a very loyal friend. He will be missed terribly by everyone who knew him. RIP mate.

[diginagain]

669 Sqn's SQHI when I was an Airtpr there, AJ gave me an introduction to the fine art of poling. No doubt there'll be some tales to be told. Last time our paths crossed would have been at R850, when he was on Pumas. Hearing his approach down the corridor, we'd switch the TV to the Jeremy Kyle show, and hide the remote, leaving a dud remote out for AJ to find. Much colourful language would follow, until he'd head off to the Officer's Mess and leave us in peace.

RIP, AJ

[helidriver]

RIP AJ,
:sad:
h

[Fortyodd2]

RIP AJ - Strangely, most of the stories I could tell involve a TV remote being hidden or modified as well!

[jonwilly]

AJ saved my neck on a pure military matter on one occasion, my lads fouled up but AJ took the rap.
Some years later his quick reaction when a trainee flew us into a bank of low lying cloud saved all our lives.
A controversial man but one who did right by me.

john

I will not get onto His TV and it was His, by God given Right.

[heliboy999]

What is the views on here about posting a Picture of AJ?

[RunwayBlueOne]

Found this article from the Sunday Times last year.

'If I take my hands and feet off the controls, we'll all be dead in a minute and a half' - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/movers_and_shakers/article5576397.ece)


Moreover, in the co-pilot's seat is “AJ” Smith, a droll Lancastrian with decades of experience flying helicopters in the RAF. AJ now works for Kudos Aviation, the company that manages Mr Smith's fleet. AJ and Mr Smith spend much of the trip abusing each others' flying skills and joking about AJ's attempt to sell him an Agusta 109 helicopter.

[Epiphany]

AJ - a legend that I was privileged to fly with during AAC days before he went to show the RAF how to do it. RIP my friend.

[P-M-G]

One of the very best pair of hands I ever had the privilege of flying alongside. I clearly remember witnessing a masterclass of Puma instructional around a decade ago from the centre seat. Location was Ballykelly with AJ driving from the left teaching a young pilot (right hand seat) some of the more dynamic tactical aspects of flying the ac. Limited combat ready young pilot, just post conversion, was having a bad day in the office. AJ with a big sigh said 'I have f*****g control' and flew the next serial on rails passing on the knowledge and ability to do so. AJ was one of the few capable of safely demonstrating some of those techniques and learning occurred. Legend.

I'm also fondly remembering many crewroom escapades in Enniskillen and Bessrook, mostly regarding TV remote controls and colourful use of the English language. PC he was not which was his most endearing personal trait.

You'd be hard pushed to find a more experienced, qualified or competent pilot in the UK and he knew the Mourne mountains like the back of his hand.

Sincere condolences to all family and friends and a huge loss to the ex-miltary community.

RiP AJ.

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

Can somebody please post a photograph of this great british helicopter legend for the benefit of international Rotorheads!

YBB

[appleavi8or]

I had the pleasure of flying with AJ when I joined my first AAC Sqn in Detmold. These were the days before NVG and he was tasked with showing Capt apple some EOLs that night (The Sqn Comd meant PFLs but that's not what he said). AJ being a new QHI did as he was told and after the sixth Engine Off landing in a gazelle on a dark grass strip we both agreed that they were a bit sporting and we'd had enough! I wasn't at the debrief with the OC the following morning.

Bumping into him along a varied career, I had the pleasure of sharing a cockpit with him in more or less the same roles some 20 plus years later but this time in a Puma in S Armagh - oddly enough in the Mourne Mountains area. His flying skills were legend, although standardisation was not a strong point when he knew you had a little more about you than basic experience.

My endearing memory of AJ was his candour, his complete disregard for bullsh*t and the pinko-lefty-PC brigade and his warmth. He was honest and open - his strength and his weakness and he simply could not leave the f******ng TV remote alone. Remember the remote jammer at Eniskillen anyone?

I am saddened by his loss - I just assumed he would be telling dits to young 'uns well into his dotage.

My thoughts are with his family and friends. The world is poorer without AJ.

[Geoffrey1948]

very shocked and saddened to hear about AJ,I flew with him a few times and he was indeed an excellent pilot and once met never forgotten. we were signing in somewhere and a poor girl asked his name,he replied Smiff with 3 f`s she couldnt work it out.still makes me smile.
A legend!

[Henry09]

I am very sad. Seems to be dust in my eyes at the moment. AJ was one of the great aviation characters. He was my first instructor on Puma. A loyal friend, devoted family man and had very few vices! Didn't smoke, didn't drink but loved a go on the fruit machine! I spent many many times in his company, normally laughing my head off. Watching him on the sim trips in Norway when he would unpack his suitcase full of pot noodles so he could save the rates and have lots of money when he went home. There was never a dull moment with him. My first trip in the sim with him he turned to me and said in his legendary accent "Right then you just sit there, watch me and don't touch a f****g thing" still has me in stitches now. He was a genuine Tigger type.

Ang and the kids, please know that AJ was a much loved character in our world, and his passing leaves a void in the flying world as it surely does your own. He was a fantastic mentor, knew his stuff and would always fight the corner for his men. The bosses would run for cover when they knew AJ was inbound to take them on head to head. I want to cry, but cant help laughing at all the times we had in NI and yes all the stories of remote controls are true. he had a heart of gold. Sincere condolences to you all.

[Torque2]

Absolute character, lots of stories and as straight as they come. Sincere condolences Angie, a great loss to all.

[kitsch]

I am AJ's brother in law and it has been great to read the fantastic stories about him. I will make sure Angie, Amie and Bret get to see them all. Thanks for all your messages it is much appreciated. Andrew

[oldbeefer]

On detachment in Portugal with him. Totally refused to come out and eat with us in a local restaurant " I don't eat f@***** fancy foreign food". Real character. Condolencies to Angie and the family (we brought Angie back from Gut for kids half term. Cor, can she talk!).

[lsh]

Oh Dear, very sad indeed, great guy.
lsh

[long box]

Hearing all the tales about AJ, if you knew him well they are all so true, we all have saying or a story about him that will let his family see the side of his life that they don't know, I am gathering together tales and sayings from him to put into a book for Angie and the kids, please pm me so I can ensure we pass on the many laughs we all had with him.

[c130jbloke]

Knew "AaaaaJaaaayyyy" from 230 days at Gut - what a character and a sad loss.

Amazing, have not seem him in over 20 yrs but still remember him like yesterday and the crew room banter involving him and a TV remote.

RIP AJ

[Python21]

Aviation has lost a true character.

Knew him well from Soltau 1974 - 1977 and later when he was a fledgling instructor at Wallop.

Sincere condolences to Ang and the children. Alan and Sheila W

RIP AJ

[seafuryfan]

AJ, after a run-in with the engineers, venting off in the crewroom to all, (who had to listen if they wanted to or not!) describing his displeasure after a similar 'engineering' confrontation in Germany some years earlier....

"So I said to this engineer, 'I could walk out to the runway, drop my flying suit, do a **** on the centreline, and IT would have more sense than you!' ...******n' engineers, I **** on 'em!"

We knew it was (mostly) tongue-in-cheek, but no one could make a point like 'Ehh-Jehh'.

Demonstrating a zero speed auto in a Puma...

"Loook, she's perfectly happy, perfectly controllable, yoo can poot 'er where yoo want 'er...this '70 knot' business... what a load of b*******s!"

...and demonstrating Puma stability during NVG sloping ground...

"Just stay light on the controls, it'll fly itself, STOP FIGHTIN' IT!...loook, see?....just touch the cyclic, that's all..."

Whatever his style of delivery, I think most pilots will always remember AJ's flying skills. Few could fly the Puma as he did.

[heliboy999]

Classic A J sayings!

"Sit there, dont touch, dont speak and breakfast is on you!"

"How many hours have you got?" Poor unfortunate pilot gives the number and AJ's reply "Is that Night flying or NVG?"

"A pint of Creme de Menthe please"

"Shut up unless you have something interesting to tell me"

"CAA!! Ive s**t better turds than that lot!!"


There appears to be a lot of TV remote stories from His Mil days but I can confirm they continued into his civvy life too.
AJ stayed at my house a few nights a week over a few months and not only did I not get to watch my TV in my front room (Had to buy a small one for my bedroom in the end) he also managed to pack my TV remote one day and flew off with it for a week!

Heard a lot about the PUMA flying, think he was pretty darn good in a Jet Ranger and a A109 too!

RIP

[Tiger_mate]

I remember tasking in the 'greens' when AJ was tasked to transfer a new born (premature) baby to a special baby care unit in Dublin. He was airborne (with patient in incubator & med team) and heading for the border when he received a call on the Ops net. An enthusiastic AJ bellowed an "OK, send over" to the Ops folk who in turn informed him that the dip clearance to cross the border had been refused and he was to return north. The pause was but a few seconds..... Followed by "Difficult, will contact by landline from destination, OUT" Without a doubt his comment was one of BS, but it was equally the right decision and his shoulders were broad enough to take any follow up criticism. FWIW my crew were delighted to hear his voice that day.

He was however the epitomy of a TV Channel surfer who was a 'mare to live with at deployed locations. ....and a bit chavvish in BFG with his wide tyred Beemer that went through tyres every 10k.

[jackal301273]

hi everyone just spent the last hour reading all these and cant help but laugh, i didnt see him that much but when i did he'd have me in stitches in minutes. think we should open a thread just for him as i love reading these stories about him

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

Can someone post his photo or not?

[Deneb]

I remember AJ from Belize where he was with 1563 (I was with 25Flt). He brightened up just about every evening with a never ending succession of hilariously funny stories. The one that stayed with me was his story of how he 'had a go' at crossing over to fixed wing, but failed. Who knows the truth, it didn't really matter it was so funny! Had us in stitches for hours.

Never forgot him - nor will.

Take care AJ, wherever you are.

J

[handysnaks]

Have to join this one. I knew AJ as a Sqn QHI in 669 Sqn AAC before his transfer. Ever so sad for Angie. Irreplaceable....

[heliboy999]

If this is not acceptable please PM me immediately and I will remove them.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e112/flashover999/AJSmith.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e112/flashover999/AJandhisBelovedPower.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e112/flashover999/AJSmithA109.jpg

[handysnaks]

And a much younger version among a number of other reprobates
(AJ bottom left of course)

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j270/handysnaks/669-3.jpg

Same here, if anyone is upset I'll remove immediately

[helidriver]

I bought the remote jammer! I would wait while he surfed the tv channels and zapped it on when it got to to the channel we wanted to watch - great sport!! I can still see him bashing the remote vigorously after changing the batteries and declaring "bloody remote is on the blink again, I'm off to bed". To be fair he did only watch golf or Star Trek and it was constantly!

I did see his compassionate side after the fatal crash of 2 of our Sqns pilots in NI. He was first on scene in his Puma and managed to find a tarpaulin which he placed over the victims. I phoned him rather drunk after the incident to thank him for his actions and was truly humbled by his kind and fatherly words, a side of AJ I'm glad I had the pleasure to witness.

Rest in peace and sincere condolence to his family at this difficult time.

h

[jackal301273]

pics are great....

[heliski22]

I didn't recognise the name immediately but I certainly recognise the pictures. He sat in the heli with us at Chelthenham last year and we had a natter about a lot of things - "direct" just hits the spot!! RIP

[kitsch]

Thanks for all the great stories about AJ. Angie is happy to see any photographs of AJ you may have so please please post as many photographs as you want.

[jayteeto]

The fixed wing crossover story was true. When the QFI gave him a simulated engine failure, he carried out the Puma immediate actions and put the gear down............ at 240kts!!

(Limit 140) :eek:

[oldbeefer]

That's probably because when I was flying with him in a Puma in Germany, I gave him a sim double engine failure. His drills were perfect BUT he forgot the gear!

[helidriver]

If someone could PM me the funeral arrangements I would much appreciate it. Please do let me know if AJ's send off is going to be a private affair and I will honour him in my own way on the 14 Nov.

Regards,

h

[Pyhom]

I have loved the comments. I have known Tony for over 40years.

I spent two weeks with Tony and Ang (one week in England and one week in Turkey) last month. it was great. Ang wants as many pictures and tales as you can put together. He was my best man at my wedding and was fond of saying why doesnt the bride marry the "best man?" I went fishing with him in Belize and the bin bag he gave me as a rain jacket was very fashionable.

In Belize, Tony had a joust with my wife because she too is very protective of the remote. It was ugly.

I will have some more comments later after I compose myself from seeing those photos. (keep them coming though)

[kitsch]

We haven't got a date for AJ's funeral yet but we will let everyone know once arrangements have been made.

[col ective]

"The fixed wing crossover story was true. When the QFI gave him a simulated engine failure, he carried out the Puma immediate actions and put the gear down............ at 240kts!!

(Limit 140)"

... and when the QHI said you've just overstressed the gear he said "no I haven't, you are the fookin captian!"

Allegedly when he went to C130 he couldn't understand why he had to do a conversion rather than "just sitting in the RHS and picking it up as he went along".

I recall a Puma det in Denmark when the serviceable aircraft was needed back at Gutersloh. When I tried to get AJ to fly it back IFR he refused on the grounds that "you might bloody well do that in the RAF but we don't in the Army!" The comic thing was he'd transferred by then.

He and Ang were our neighbours at Gutersloh and were great company. He could be a royal pain in the ass at times but he was a nice one and 100% genuine. Condolences to Ang, Brett and Amy. RIP AJ,

[Art E. Fischler-Reisen]

When he changed to a blue uniform and arrived at Odiham, he politely introduced himself to we Puma OCU staff as "Anthony".

He couldn't hide his true character...... or his thick Lancashire accent! He was teamed up with "BBS" as his QHI, as a challenge to both of them, methinks.

The Germany landaway was the final phase of the conversion course, to RAF Gutersloh. Of course, "Anthony" had been based in Germany in his AAC days, not too long previously and must have known the Corps area like the back of his hand, like all of us who had been based there. During a low-level navex, he needed to cross the high ridge to the north, via one of the narrow low-level routes.

Knowing the procedure, "Anthony" blind called on the "Corps common" frequency (255.1, IIRC, it's been nearly twenty five years):

"T'Bielefeld Gap, Puma, from t'north tert south, two minutes, Bielefeld Gap!"

From the ether, someone unknown cheerily replied: "Ayup, Aajaaay!" :ok:

And from that moment on, "Anthony" reverted to "Ajay" for the rest of his RAF career. :D

[heliboy999]

Dont think I would have trusted anyone else to get this shot!!

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e112/flashover999/AJLowhover.jpg

[beckham457]

I was an Air Tech and served with AJ in Soltau and Hildesheim. In my view he was the best pilot I ever flew with. Iremeber a great week supporting an exercise in Putlos, Me AJ a Gazelle and a tool box. One of the best exercises I was ever on.
I also remember when the other Smith (Simon) had an engine failure en Route to NI. The inclined drive shaft sheared, ruptured the oil tank and filled the cockpit with smoke. Simon couldn't see where he was going and headed toward power lines at Nienburg. The story goes that another Gazelle was accompanying him and a cool Lancashire accent came over the radio "E lad youre gonna hit the fookin' wires!)" He then proceeded to talk Simon into a relatively safe landing.
Truly a legend, and although I haven't seen him for 30 years I am sure he will be sadly missed.

[Stratofreighter]

Also see here:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/432060-sad-news-rotorheads.html

[jackal301273]

thats a good pic :) keep them coming

[EESDL]

Bugger - didn't pay much attention to the initial thread stating 'another heli down' etc etc.

What an absolute tragic loss

God's speed AJ - it's true, you could be a pain - if one had forgotten their ear plugs - you were a skilled pilot but a better story teller.

Was in the OM bar when the 'song' was conceived.......

Where's the Puma gone?
It's gone to Monaghan, far far away.....

AJ looked down and the TANS had dumped
Eh Up! Where the fooook are we?

Thoughts go to all of his family

Aufidersen AJ

[heliboy999]

Another one of AJ where he loved to be.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e112/flashover999/AJ109E.jpg

Comedian always.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e112/flashover999/AJPointingandlaughinga.jpg

[Epiphany]

So sorry for your loss Angie. I only knew AJ from his AAC days and flew with him many times in Germany and NI as a young crewman. He was a huge influence on my career and was the first to congratulate me when I passed pilot selection.

I lost touch with him at some point due to postings and remember being amazed when I heard that he had been accepted for a commission in the RAF - they can't possibly have interviewed him can they?

Then couple of years ago back I flew into Ascot and as I walked towards the pilots tent I heard that unmistakable voice and there was AJ sitting in a chair voicing his opinion on some point or other. It was so good to see him.

In a military and an industry where I often encountered sycophants and hypocrites he was a breath of fresh air - as honest and straight as the day is long. RIP AJ, you will be missed by many.

[long box]

I remember being in a pub with him away on a pleasure flying event, the young waitress took a drinks order, 3 beers and then that great accent kicks in, a corke please, a corke came the reply, yeah a corke for f#### sake, few minutes go by three beers a turn up along with and a saucer with a cork on it, what the f### is that cries AJ at the waitress, its a cork came the reply, I wanted a corke claims AJ, it is a bloody cork, the three of us were uncontrolable with laughter as AJ went on about the thick youth of today

[long box]

On a rather posh corporate event at a nice country house hotel, AJ was doing the flying, all guest assemble on the lawn, we load the first 4 in, he hits the button, it winds up but no light off, with that the door flies open, out he gets, marches over to the assembles masses and annouces, yer airplane's crap I'm off for a cream tea

[AussieAndy]

I was reading The Times article late last night about a Heli down last weekend and then read AJ's name. I thought surely there must be another AJ from across the water prompting me to send a couple of late night texts. Sadly not...

AJ took me flying over Silverstone in June 2008 in a A109E, it is was the most memorable flight I've ever had in a helicopter, a true gentleman, a piss taker of my downunder-ness and great fun.

This is my only picture, taken about 90 second before I nearly lost my guts!

RIP - AJ...

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e112/flashover999/AJoverSilverstone.jpg

[trainee_flyboy]

I only had the pleasure of knowing AJ from his Kudos days, joined the company with no interest in helicopters whatsoever, something he managed to change with his stories and even as a fixed wing jockey I could see the raw skill the man possessed behind the sticks.
Can still picture him sat in the VIP lounge, custard tart in one hand tele remote in the other watching re-runs of Sharpe, shouting 'where's ma money?!' those who knew him at that time can no doubt relate!
My thoughts are with Angie and the family at this time, and as so many before have mentioned the world is a duller place without this charismatic gentleman.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-ash1/v124/44/49/744560459/n744560459_447488_8260.jpg
Show those angels some real flying AJ. Rest In Peace.

[Paul Chocks]

I first met AJ when converting to the Puma at Benson in 1998, and liked him instantly. He was a great instructor for a re-tread like myself and I enjoyed every flight with him. He had no sense of discretion and was completely non-PC, but of course, that was part of his charm.

His finesse with the Puma was simply outstanding - I remember being in Field 27, or something similar, near the M40 with him gently balancing on the nose wheel smoothly driving forward and back on the slope. Of course when I tried, I just pivoted around the nose wheel, or crashed down on the mains! Later, as a QHI myself, I tried to emulate his skill on sloping ground, but as yet have not achieved it.

Also, he once set up an approach at 500', set the controls for the descent and took his hands off - the aircraft flew a perfect approach all the way to the ground. (I think it even surprised him, mind, as we used to laugh about it every time we ran into one another.) I was lucky to see him often over the last few years, most recently at Cardiff during the Ryder Cup.

So-long AJ, you will be sorely missed, and never forgotten.

[bondu]

I first met AJ at Middle Wallop in 1979, when he was instructing on Gazelles and I was just starting out as a helicopter pilot, although I never had the privilege of flying with him.

I remember when he was banned from taking students on the two day long navex - the overnight stops were supposed to be other military bases, but AJ always managed to go u/s in Blackpool, or Newcastle etc and he and his studes would have to find a hotel somewhere.

Rumour had it that when the RAF accepted him for commisioning they mixed up the application forms and AJ got through by mistake! I'm convinced that the culture shock that occured when he arrived was for the RAF and not AJ!

Our paths next crossed many years later, in 2000. I was sitting in reception at Bond Air Services Glasgow, waiting to start my re-conversion to the Bo105. I had been told that another pilot would be on the same course - someone called Tony Smith. Then I heard that distinctive booming voice - AJ! We had some great times down in Glasgow city centre over the next few days - a culture shock for those Glaswegians who crossed our paths! We were sitting in a restaurant, waiting for our meals, when one of his mobiles rang (he always seemed to have two!). He promptly went outside and paced up and down past the windows, shouting on the phone - everyone inside could hear him!

After the course, he went down to Boreham, with the Essex Air Ambulance, for a few months, where he managed to fly into some HT wires and set fire to the field of hay where he landed. The boss, TRL, went down to see him and ask what happened - "foooking sun was in my eyes as I approached the foooking field...didn't see the foooking wire stretched between the foooking trees!" Trevor just laughed, told him not to do it again and then told him he was being moved to Blackpool. Where he worked back-to-back with me for best part of a year, before he re-joined the RAF.

The North West Air Ambulance didn't know what had hit it! Never one to stand on ceremony, AJ told it as it was, which didn't go down too well with some of the support staff - not the paramedics, I hasten to add, for which he only had admiration.

A fabulous character, who will never be replaced.

Eh up, AJ, RIP matey.

bondu

[paco]

I've only just realised that it was Eeebagum - bye bye AJ - I only met you once or twice, but you certainly won't be forgotten!

Phil

[AJfamily]

Hi this is Angie AJ's wife. Where to start - well the tv remote control seems to feature a lot, so I would just like to say you are not alone, Tony (AJ) when entering the house after a stint away would come into the living room pick up the remote and surf the channels to see what was on - totally ignoring the fact that I was already watching something. Like most of you I had every faith in his flying ability and still can't understand why this is happening to us. All your stories and pictures however difficult for Bret Amie and I at times are also making us laugh, so thankyou. I am happy to hear from anyone that knew us. Please all of you live for today because tomorrow may never happen. Angie

[ewe.lander]

Dear Angie - an awful lot of good people out there will be feeling for you and the AJ-kinderlings.

Your man was a one off. I did my AAC Pilots course in 78, AJ was a 'new' QHI. you both came to one of our parties at the 5 Bells. Seem to remember he wore an uber cool leather jacket!? You might remember we had the sadly departed son of W-B with us, still wearing his pyjama's under his trousers!! happy days - and AJ was direct, different and refreshing - and great (no matter when some sniffy people said he was too direct - he was invariably right)

AJ went Crab - and he was on G100 (St Angelo) duty one Xmas day with me - I was on the Lynx by then, I came into the crewroom early Xmas morning (I was V grumpy) to find AJ dressed as Father Xmas with a daft red cap on as well....I smiled for the rest of the day (and refrained from nicking the remote batteries) his only comment was 'cheer oop ya miserable yorkshire git....'

Later - AJ approaching G100 "G100, Puma 2 minutes from t'north, G100" some sage bellows on UHF 'Shut up AJ', and for the rest of the day when AJ transmitted the whole of the AAC/SHFNI world bellowed 'SHUT UP AJ', much more satisfying than 'Orange whip', knowing he'd be chuntering.

Like AJ I then went Crab, kept in touch, he was a rarity in the changing Military - someone confident enough to speak his mind and make sure things were straight and right.

Met him just a few weeks ago at Farnborough - he was smiling and relaxed, flying a 109. We chatted for half an hour or more. It all came back to me - the good days in NI, Belize and BAOR.

RIP Mate

[SiClick]

Hi Angie
We met on 230 sqn in Gutersloh, many years ago. AJ was one of life's characters, and we all feel for your loss. It doesn't make any sense, but we are all glad to have known and flown with him, and like you, we all have many fond memories of him.
Best wishes
SiClick

[PhamousPhotographer]

No military career photos yet, so here’s one of AJ in his Crabair office on 15th August 2003, just west of The Deanery in Clogher (Y532), heading for Grosvenor -

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx299/PhamousPhotographer/Image0115-08-2003PhamousPhotographer.jpg

and a Lough Erne view of XW231 from the Aldergrove-bound XW237, with Angelo civil runway in the background and Navaar viewpoint on the horizon.

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx299/PhamousPhotographer/Image0215-08-2003PhamousPhotographer.jpg

A***n L*****r in the doorway, Ade P*******n in the rh seat and Flt Lt Smith monitoring two rotor spans separation. Understandably, none were keen to face the camera as I wasn’t Phamous enough on 230 Sqn for them to be certain of their own security, but I was made welcome for an enjoyable and entertaining hour or two in the Yellows & Greens.

My condolences to his family.

[JTobias]

All

I never met AJ but I often heard him on the radio flying locally to my home base EGCB. Many a time he would be flying a 109 and his distinctive R/T would make me chuckle.

Its clear by reading the posts that he was a remarkable pilot and a well liked character. It's a terrible tragedy and my condolences go to his family, and the passengers too.

Joel

[MICK6R4]

Deepesst Sincere condolence and sympathy to you and all famiy members i was one of the first air and civilian crew on site as a pilot i am stunned by all

[long box]

Hi All

Please keep the pictures and stories coming, as stated on a previous post I am compiling a book of stories and pics to give to Angie and the family so they can always read and remember how well thought of he really was

[-x-elz-x-]

Where do i start... AJ was one in a million as i think everyone would agree. He always came into the office with a smile from ear to ear ready to tell some kind of amusing story. I never got to fly with AJ but i got to meet him many of times and i feel so happy to have known him, even if it was only for a short time. I will remember that smile, accent, bum bag :) and great sense of humour. You will never be forgotten, in my heart always and forever AJ -x-

[Rolandpitch.]

A good friend who will be sorely missed. Can't believe how much money I put in that fruit machine with him in NI. One less of us northerners to keep the rest of you in line! My thoughts are with you and the family Ang

[ATCO Two]

Sincere condolences from all the guys and girls on Heathrow Radar/SVFR 125.625 at Terminal Control Swanwick. AJ was a regular customer of ours, and he was always professional and cheerful on the RTF.

[errrolplane]

tribute to AJ to follow. Lost the original.

[fisbangwollop]

We spoke in the past on AJ's forrays into Scotland...as all of you rotary guys are, he to was a pleasure to talk to....Condolences from all at Scottish Info 119.875. :cool:

[heliboy999]

Really nice to hear from the ATC guys, nice to know they recognise the voices and remember.
Thanks for all you do.

HB999

[heliboy999]

As a new pilot with a company operating a pleasure flying event AJ was asked by the boss to "check me out" before the days flying started.
"Ah ooop mucka" "get yerself in and wait fer me"
Got the 206 fired up and waited for AJ to wander out to the aircraft and climb in.
"Right, my aircraft!" says AJ who then preceeded to accerate backwards down the FATO (No PAX before you all jump on in) before climbing away still backwards and then Max rate climb up to 1000 feet. Torque turn at 1500 feet filled the windscreen with green fields and a 360 auto to a perfect touch down to the words "Dont ever let me see you do do that with passengers on and you will be alright lol"
When we landed on at the entrance to the event the line was already full of passengers waiting to go on a helicopter that does aerobatics but sadly had to put up with my round the circuit flights instead!

One of the most exciting flights ive ever had in a helicopter to this day!

[newfieboy]

RIP mate, been following this thread from day 1, was just going to keep the memories to my self, but bloody hell, even left an impression on ATC, why am I not suprised.....the odd time we crossed paths in a previous career.....you certainly left an impression on me and I was a tad of a hooligan in them days. Very deepest condolances Ange and family, we never met, but your Man was a star...:ok:

[richmaddison]

Angie and family,

Sally and I are really sorry for your loss and our thoughts are with you all at this time. You were both good friends to us in Germany and I learnt a huge amount from AJ, during that time and throughout the years afterwards when we served together. He was someone you could always trust to give you a straight opinion and that kind of honesty is sadly not always present these days. He was perhaps the one pilot out there who only had to say he callsign before everyone that knew him would be telling everyone that didn't about him. 'Hear that voice - that's AJ'.

Rich and Sally Maddison

[errrolplane]

A second attempt; AJ would be amused.

I met AJ 40 years ago on the Pre Army Pilots Technical Refresher Course at Tidworth. I recall a tall, skinny, good looking guy who had a Burnley accent that could crack a walnut at 30 yards. As I didn’t know one end of an engine from the other AJ took pity on me and took me under his wing. “Look it’s easy” he would say “suck, squeeze, bang, blow” interspersed with some fab adjectives. We went on to Middle Wallop, I can’t remember if his course was ahead or behind mine. He soon had everyone taking note of his undoubted skills when, on a solo low level nav ex flying a Sioux, he had a turbo charger failure which he handled so well. At that stage of our training it would have creased most of us. At the end of it all we were both posted to 1 Regt AAC in Germany.

AJ was never happier than when he was either flying or head down in some engine compartment; a private car or LandRover or was all the same to AJ. On one occasion we were snowed in and the snow plough was broke. Well it was til AJ arrived. When he had fixed it he walked away covered in grease and oil muttering “VM’s nowadays don’t know ****e”. The other thing concentrating his mind was the blossoming romance with Angie. He would have us in fits about how on earth he was going to impress her father who was a senior officer in a smart Infantry Regiment. Still he must have found the right words.

My wife’s family lived in Essen about 2 hours away from base and they had offered me some good furniture and carpets. I was moaning to AJ about how was I going to collect it. A few days later he said “ we’ll go tonight to pick it up” “What in” I stupidly asked. “In that “ he replied pointing to a 3 ton truck. “ Don’t ask just get in”. It took several hours but his generosity was uncondiotional. I never did ask.

Our paths divereged and we next meet at Wallop when he was now a QHI and I was on a course. I used to bum coffee off them rather hoping that AJ would be out and I could monopolise Angie for a few hours – fat chance. One morning I remarked that my old VW Beetle was knackered. His eyes lit up “bring it t’garage we’ll have a look”. He took the engine out, stripped it down, we got spare bits, he put it back together again and it didn’t work. “Reet then we’ll try again” and he did it again. At the end of it he said “you’re wrong its not knackered, its f****d”.

I was lucky to get to look after 655 Sqn at Ballykelly and was blessed with some of the best that the AAC had on its books so when AJ, sorry WO AJ Smith arrived as our QHI the jigsaw was complete. All I had to do was turn up and answer the phone, AJ constantly reminded me I needed help to do that. We shared a love of fishing and he would find great places to go. We were fishing a newly found river when a strong gust of wind lifted my very expensive umberella into the air and it landed in the river and sank. AJ asked if I had a towel in the car. He stripped to his underpants and in he went. Having recovered it he stood there soaking wet and shivering asking for the towel. I said I didn’t have one. I lied, but it was the best 5 minute AJ rant I have ever heard. I still have the umberella and when I use it I always recall AJ up to his neck in that river.

Now we in 655 Sqn know that it ws AJ that first rolled the Gazelle. He told me that if the aircraft was in the vertical plane then it was easy to roll it. He said he was working on getting it flatter. I didn’t believe him. Then came the Ballykelly open day. We had many assembled dignitaries including our CO who was ex Boscombe Down. John D gave an excellent Lynx demo then in came AJ. As he finished the roll there were gasps all around mine being the loudest. The CO said that it couldn’t be done and with that AJ did a split arse turn came in and did it again. My wife still remembers the day that AJ rolled the Gazelle. The phone calls the next day were interesting.

The AAC then made, in my opinion a major error by not granting AJ a commission. I thought he would be outstanding in our standards team; so our loss was the RAF’s gain. We kept in touch and I next met him when I was in Maastricht and he was now a Pilot Officer at RAF Gutersloh. He invited me to a mess kit do in the mess. I wondered wether he would no longer be AJ, but Tony or even worse Anthony! I should not have wondered because he had not changed a bit. He and Angie fitted into his new life with ease. “It’s alright here” he said “but I don’t get on with those Harrier t*****s” He was also still taking 30 minutes to tell you why he shouldn’t do a 2 minute job.

Sadly our paths diverged as I left the military and I couldn’t track him down, but it wasn’t due to a lack of trying. I had heard he was flying Hercules, then Poilce helicopters then corporate work; the trail went cold. That is until one Sunday morning I was reading the papers and there was an article written by someone famous as to the joys of having enough wealth to hire a helicopter especially when the pilot was a no nonsense Lancashire lad called Captain Tony Smith. Well the rest was easy. We tried to meet up but his and my rosters did not jive. We spoke a lot and agreed to meet when we could. Sadly that is no longer going to happen.

He was a good friend. He could be infuriating when using the AJ logic in a discussion or usually an argument, but I will always remember him as a gentle and generous man. I will miss him.

Angie, it was good to talk the other day.

Mark B

[Savoia]

.
What a wonderfully composed and utterly sincere missive.

S.

[long box]

As many of you have seen, we are putting together a book for Angies and the family, we really need some more pictures if any of you have some, any pictures will do, would be really appreciated.

[diginagain]

I wonder if 669 still have AJ's gift on leaving the squadron - a Bill Tidy cartoon, ISTR, of an instructor bellowing 'Gently, GENTLY!' at the hapless student, who is struggling to control the helicopter whilst wearing boxing gloves.

AJ gave me my first cabby, as an Airtrooper with ambition - but nothing like the talent AJ had - and only managed to get me to relax at the controls by having me hold a pencil in my right-middle finger, imposing pressure on the backs of the index and ring fingers when I tensed-up. Simple and very effective.

A long time ago perhaps, but AJ's generosity, even to a 'dumb Yorkshireman' as he put it, has never been forgotten.

[Machen Wir Crookie]

I knew AJ at 669 Sqn. I remember the night he presented the Bill Tidy cartoon very well. AJ was much admired by everyone in the Squadron and the shiny nine. It's very sad news and my heart goes out to everyone who knew him but especially to his loved ones.

Martyn

[MightyGem]

Just received this from AAC HQ:

Ladies and Gentlemen

Further to the notice sent below I have just been informed that Anthony Smith’s funeral will take place on Thursday 25 November at 1530 at Amersham Crematorium and all are welcome to attend. This is all the information currently available.

[Henry09]

errrolplane


Mark

I just p****d myself laughing about the umbrella. Classic classic AJ. That one should be told at the funeral. Take the umbrella chap!

I was thinking about contributing something for the book, then realised I could just write a book. That is the funny thing. With most guys who pass away we all have a few dits to tell, but with AJ most of us could write our own book!

Check pm's.

[EESDL]

Unable to make the 25th to say 'goodbye' in person but I'll be raising a class of local Ghanaian hooch in his name!

[kitsch]

Hi this is Angies brother Andrew.
AJ's Funeral is on Thursday November 25th at Chilterns Creamatorium, Hampden Chapel, Whielden Lane, Amersham, HP70ND. All friends are welcome. There will be a wake afterwards in Dinton, BUCKS. No flowers please donations to the Royal British Legion. I look forwards to meeting all of you.

[Hedski]

I'll not be back in the UK in time to give my condolences in person. I'll raise a glass though.
H

[Thud_and_Blunder]

I'll be seeing the Bolkow through its last days on Northern Lighthouse Board duties that day so sadly won't be able to attend. However, will quietly sip a Diet Coke that evening, as AJ and I were wont to do during our thrill-packed(!) Norway recce trip, and remember a unique character.

[MOSTAFA]

I'm in Adelaide but at the time prescribed I'll raise a glass.

Till we all meet again mate, Rest in Peace.

[AJfamily]

Want to thank you all again for the many stories and pictures posted on this blog by you all.
Dress code for the funeral: colour! When I first met Tony he was wearing an orange Ben Sherman shirt with purple /mauve hipster jeans and it has taken me nearly 38 years to tone him down!............... Thursday however is his day so feel free to express yourselves on the colour front. Will see all of you there. thanks Angie (AJ's wife)

[idle stop]

I shall be away abroad and unable to attend, but I shall find time to pause for AJ's memory and to think of his family, and later to raise a glass or two in celebration of a great character, who will be greatly missed by the GA helicopter community.

[beckham457]

I am sorry I will be unable to make Tony's funeral. My thoughts will be with his wife, his children all of his family and friends.
Our days at Soltau were a long time ago, but at least he did what he loved right to the end.

[Captain Tercrew]

When I heard of the crash in the Mournes, I was shocked when the name was released. I knew AJ from about 1983 when I was a sprog QHI on Advanced Rotary at Wallop. Always a consummate professional with a sharp wit and a quick putdown to idiots, but a man who was always approachable by those he taught. No-one who ever heard him on the RT ever needed to hear his callsign to know it was him. A very sad loss to aviation, I'm not able to make the funeral but will raise a glass in his memory.

[liverpoolstreet]

Dear Angie

So sorry to hear of your loss. AJ constantly berated my engineers throughout all my tours with him from Odiham to NI; he could blow a fuse like no other. His charm and manners enabled this great man to deliver the most profound put down in the kindest way. No matter how hard the tasking or foul the weather, he reminded us all of the importance of humour and manners. We shall all miss him.

[AussieAndy]

My thoughts are with everyone today especially AJ's family...

Rest in Peace AJ and well done for your 10 page thread, you are clearly loved and now missed by many...

[sycamore]

And The Lord cried out in vain....

"Who's got the remote ? "

[OvertHawk]

"never mind t't remowt - ow' many hours av' ye got on NVG?"

[heliski22]

I hope you all gave him a proper send-off!!

[heliboy999]

AJ was sent off by many, there was standing room only!
There was lots laughing and lots of tears.
There were sections read aloud in the Crem from this very thread and it seems to have brought great comfort to the family to have read about their beloved AJ!
The music ranged from Classical through "The Dam busters" and finished with "Those magnificent men in their flying machines" which had the desired effect of bringing a smile!
AJ was sent along his way with a Pork pie and a custard tart!

Take care AJ.

[heliboy999]

Saw this today, It seems that Our respect for the privicy of AJ's family and loved ones before his name was "officially" released lead some to read deeper into the silence than was actually needed.

At least the got "The Legend" bit right.

SECRECY SURROUNDING MYSTERY HELICOPTER CRASH IN IRELAND : Infowars Ireland (http://info-wars.org/2010/11/05/secrecy-surrounding-mystery-helicopter-crash-in-ireland/)

[heliboy999]

Almost a year since that terrible day.
Does anyone have the exact co-ordinates of the crash site? i am looking to walk the Mourne mountains later this year and I was hoping to lay something at the site. Maybe make a little rockpile and leave something to mark the site in rememberance?



HB999

[SilsoeSid]

Prince Charles' friend 'killed in helicopter crash after engine trouble' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/8804455/Prince-Charles-friend-killed-in-helicopter-crash-after-engine-trouble.html)


Prince Charles' friend 'killed in helicopter crash after engine trouble'
A helicopter which crashed killing three men, one a friend of the Prince of Wales, was suffering engine trouble, an inquest heard.

4:33PM BST 03 Oct 2011


Residents also said it seemed to be flying low before it hit the ground in the Mourne Mountains, Co Down, a year ago.

The prince's friend Charles Stisted, 47, chief executive of the Guards Polo Club at Windsor, was a passenger on the flight which was on its way back to England after the men attended a shooting party at an estate in Co Tyrone.

Construction company businessman and fellow polo player Ian Wooldridge, 52, and pilot Anthony Smith, 63, formerly of the RAF and army with service in Northern Ireland, also died.

A preliminary hearing was held at Belfast coroner's court today.

Coroner John Leckey summarised some of the evidence from residents near the crash site.

"The engine of the helicopter perhaps did not seem to be running smoothly and also seemed to be flying low," he said.

"As we know, the helicopter really disintegrated following the impact with the mountain."

An inquest will be held before a jury in February following the accident, which happened after a shooting session at the Baronscourt estate on the outskirts of Newtownstewart, 10 miles from Omagh, the home of the Duke of Abercorn.

Specialist units were deployed to work on the crash site, as debris from the helicopter was scattered across Shanlieve Mountain, between Hilltown and Rostrevor.

Mr Wooldridge, from Windlesham, Surrey, was also a member of the Guards Polo Club.

With his brother Graham, he ran a multi-million pound demolition and construction company and was a prominent figure in Dublin-based Harcourt Developments, a property company involved in the development of the Titanic Quarter in Belfast.

Mr Stisted was from London and Mr Smith from Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire.

The inquest is expected to take a week and the jury will listen to two residents, who described hearing the engine and noticing the apparently low flight. They have already made witness statements.

It will also take evidence from a pathologist who examined the men's bodies and up to five experts from the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB).

There will also be technical evidence about where the helicopter came down and from what height, barrister Jonathan Chambers for the pilot liability insurers said.

Four hill walkers who assisted in going to the scene of the crash site will also testify, the coroner said.

It was revealed by the coroner that one man who was member of the shooting party at Baronscourt and the last to see the three men in alive, declined to take a lift back to England as he had a social engagement in Co Donegal in the Irish Republic.

Witnesses from St Angelo airfield in Enniskillen, Co.Fermanagh, where the helicopter departed, will give evidence as well as police who recovered the bodies.

The AAIB report on the accident will be published in mid-November. A draft copy has already been completed.

Relatives of Mr Wooldridge and Mr Stisted were present in court today.


Prince Charles' friend 'killed in helicopter crash after engine trouble' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/8804455/Prince-Charles-friend-killed-in-helicopter-crash-after-engine-trouble.html)

[verticalhold]

Oh thats all right then....... The coroner and media have all the right answers.

When will someone point out to coroners that staying quiet might be a good idea, and that you rarely hear a helicopte's engine, the noise is mostly from the main and tail rotors.

Makes me seethe :mad:

[ShyTorque]

"The engine of the helicopter perhaps did not seem to be running smoothly"

Was that the number one engine, number two engine, or both engines?

Wonder what it was, bad magneto or duff spark plug, carb icing....? :rolleyes:

[Helinut]

Coroners and their courts are competent to do what they should do: which is determine the "cause of death" i.e. unlawful killing, accident, suicide etc. In those terms there is little doubt about this accident.

Their views about technical matters in specialist areas (such as the cause of an aviation accident) aren't worth much. With respect, they don't know what they are talking about and don't usually have suitable advisers. The AAIB guys/gals will of course be closer to the truth, but they may not have finished their investigation yet.

From what I recall of the wreckage, there may not be much physical evidence for the AAIB to get their teeth into.

It is a modern mistake to misunderstand what a coroner's court is for, largely perpetrated by the media.

[ShyTorque]

It is a modern mistake to misunderstand what a coroner's court is for, largely perpetrated by the media.

I fully understand what a coroner's court does.

I was, however, surprised that the coroner made such a statement about "the" engine for the media to report, prior to the release of the AAIB report.

Obviously, the A109 helicopter has two engines and is capable of flying on one. A "straightforward" single engine failure does not fit in with the circumstances of this accident.

Hopefully the AAIB report will shed some light on this tragedy.

[Capetonian]

I recall reading about this crash last year. At the time it was 'just another' helicopter accident and had no more meaning than any other.

10 days ago I drove through the Morne Mountains, admired the scenery, stopped for tea, chatted with some locals near Hilltown, and then headed back to Aldergrove for an afternoon flight. What a beautiful part of the world and how sad to read this.

My condolences to all.

[Telstar]

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Agusta%20A109A%20II,%20N2NR%2011-11.pdf

[BIT]

I have just returned to reading this forum and was sad to learn of the death of AJ, I dont know how I managed to miss such news of such a sad loss.

"You think you know but you dont" and "FTFN" (Follow the fu**in Needle) will be phrases that many other Puma pilots who flew with AJ will recall.

A massive character and a great instructor who taught me a lot.

And to all that commented on him and the TV remote...YES.

My respects to his memory and his family.

[SilsoeSid]

Crash helicopter pilot's wife is sued by widow
(http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24036106-crash-helicopter-pilots-wife-is-sued-by-widow.do)

The family of a man killed in a horrific helicopter crash are suing the widow of the pilot at the controls.

Charles Stisted, a close friend of Prince Charles, William and Harry, died when the craft smashed into a mountain in Northern Ireland on the way back from a hunting trip.

The 47-year-old father-of-two was killed alongside pilot Anthony Smith and the aircraft's co-owner, construction tycoon Ian Wooldridge.

Today Mr Stisted's grieving wife Melissa revealed she is suing Mr Smith's widow, Angela, as well as Mr Wooldridge's family, for £300,000. They believe the pilot was negligent.

According to a writ at the High Court, Mrs Stisted holds the Wooldridges responsible for employing Mr Smith.

Also at;
Express.co.uk Family of royal friend killed in a helicopter crash sue pilot’s wife (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/302612/Family-of-royal-friend-killed-in-a-helicopter-crash-sue-pilot-s-wife)
THE family of a friend of Prince Charles who was killed in a helicopter crash have launched a legal battle against the widow of the pilot involved in the tragedy.

[Savoia]

What a deeply erroneous course of action the Stisted's have embarked upon.

Nothing they can do will bring back Charles and nothing but time can ease the pain both they and Anthony's family feel.

If there are lessons to be learned from this tragedy then that is the job of the AAIB to discover, communicate and if necessary legislate.

Why place such a horrid and insensitive burden upon Angela and her family? I'm sorry but I find such behaviour to be both repulsive and selfish. Accidetns happen in this life - no one wishes for them.

In the Express article there is mention of a 'report'?

[Fake Sealion]

I'll leave it to others who have the necessary legal qualifications to comment further on this.:sad:

I am rendered speechless.

[MightyGem]

In the Express article there is mention of a 'report'?Yes, 4 posts up.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Agusta%20A109A%20II,%20N2NR%2011-11.pdf

[SASless]

It might be "Legal" but it sure isn't nice.

I reckon rent on the digs must be a burden and one must keep up appearances.


All you young folks out there....pay attention to this.

It is your License, Your Life, and Your Future.....remember there are unhappy consequences to bad events that you might be held responsible for...and in some cases....your Next-of-Kin might have to pay for out of your Estate if you are killed in that same bad event.

Along with the Privileges of that License you hold are Responsibilities and Liabilities. When you are making your decisions.....keep that in mind.

Come Court time...your Boss Fellah is going to show up with his own Legal Counsel who is going to look out for the Boss Fellah's interests. You want Legal Counsel....you shall have to hire your own.

It isn't necessarily fair, nice, or something we talk about much....but it is Reality.

The Widow in this case has legal standing to initiate an action against the Pilot's Estate and if the Court agrees with her in the end....the Pilot's Widow is going to have to pay up. At the very least....she is going to have to endure a lot of heart ache, misery, and financial loss while defending against the action.

I did not know AJ...that I know of....and am making no observations about the merits of the action or the tragedy that led up to this happening.

I am just reminding our young folks who attend these parts of what can happen during their careers in aviation. Aviation can be rewarding on several layers but it also can be costly as well. Do your best to be on the correct side of that balance beam.


Just read the AAIB Report.

Here is the conclusion.....their Conclusion actually.

Conclusion
The accident occurred when the helicopter flew at a near constant height, heading and groundspeed into the western slope of Shanlieve. No technical fault was identified in the examination of the wreckage, but given the extreme disruption of the airframe and flying controls, a full inspection was not possible and therefore a technical fault cannot be completely ruled out. The helicopter impacted the terrain some 100 ft below the summit height of 2,054 ft.
Without clearer evidence of the pilot’s actions or intentions, no conclusive causal factors for the accident could be established. However, as possible contributory factors, it is likely that the upper slopes of the ridge were obscured by cloud and some combination of visual or distracting factors led the pilot to consider that he was clear of terrain. Whilst there was no evidence of any pre-existing condition or disease, subtle pilot incapacitation could not be ruled out.

Anything beyond what is in bold print (my edit there....) is wasted conjecture.

The AAIB has no idea what caused the accident. As all the occupants died in the crash....and there were no CVR's....we shall never know what actually caused the crash.

It is a fact the aircraft flew smack dab into the hill about a 100 feet below the summit. We just don't know why.

The Plaintiffs Legal Counsel shall raise some very pointed questions and at some point a Judge or Jury shall have to decide what bearing the answers have on the situation.

[Fake Sealion]

If the logic is extended, then 3000 odd 9/11 victims families should sue President bush for billions for presiding over security forces which were negligent in not arresting the terrorist plotters and furthermore they should then also sue the entire population of the US who voted for Bush as it was they who appointed him.

[paco]

And don't forget the definition of a jury - 12 people not smart enough to get out of it.

I did know AJ, and without knowing the full circumstances of the accident, it is highly unlikely that he would have been negligent.

Phil

[puntosaurus]

Well the report concludes that mechanical failure could not be ruled out, nor subtle pilot incapacitation. Not sure what standard of proof is required in this action though, on the balance of probabilities there might be something to discuss, but it would seem to be hard to conclude negligence beyond reasonable doubt with the report conclusions as they stand.

[Savoia]

MG: Thank you. Interesting to see that the AAIB are now utilising Google Earth in their report. Regarding the outcome .. I think we were all expecting this. :(

SAS: What you point-out is factual but wouldn't have been the case a couple of decades ago in a largely pre-litigious Europe. The cautions about choices are however (and as you suggest) good notes for those entering the fray.

FS: Couldn't agree with you more.

PACO: I didn't know AJ but I do know how it can get. There was my godfather, Col. Bob, some 20,000 hours, the 12th helicopter pilot to be licenced in the UK, former test pilot etc. etc. and ends up pranging a 206 in foul weather on a beach just south of Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. He, if anyone, knew the volatility of VFR operations but .. I've seen how it can catch even the most experienced drivers out.

In Papua New Guinea I was exposed to the fastest-changing weather patterns I have ever encountered and more than once (each time mercifully alone) did I end up on the wrong side of reason when it came to being airborne in the most undesirable kind of soup.

Eventually, after some 'too close for comfort' encounters with wx, a younger Savoia embraced a self-enforced discipline in which I basically said to myself "thus far and no further". Amazingly from that point forward things became considerably easier.

The price? I was no longer 'Mr Can Do' .. I ended-up landing in obscure locations more frequently to wait out the weather (sometimes overnighting in the cab) and I was sometimes 'passed-over' when it came to specific assignments because it was known that 'Sav wouldn't drive in the soup'.

What am I saying? That this low-vis VFR-nightmare challenge has and continues to take some of the best in the industry and, sadly, will probably continue to do so as a result of the fact that our birds generally don't fly where the sky is clear but must carry on in the murk and muck in order to get the job done.

[Lewycasino]

And don't forget the definition of a jury - 12 people not smart enough to get out of it

One of the many 'definitions' of a jury, depending where you look, is actually quite different to yours

In trials, a group of people who are selected and sworn to inquire into matters of fact and to reach a verdict on the basis of the evidence presented to them

So, anyone who is selected and actually does jury duty are just idiots who aren't able to avoid it?

[Epiphany]

I must have been in PNG about the same time Savoia. I had an engine failure in a 500 and after the engine change I was told to follow the 500 that brought the engine and engineer back to Goroka. At the time I had a similar reputation to yourself as someone who would not fly in below-minima conditions and to make matter worse I was ex-military. The pilot of the other 500 thought he would teach me a lesson in bush flying and I was so intent on following him weaving through the tree tops that I didn't notice that we were in cloud and lost. The Pacific 500s were not fitted with attitude indicators you will remember.

I had to be restrained from killing him when we (fortunately) both landed.

Novice pilots should take heed of the wise words of SASless. If something goes wrong all those tossers pressuring you into flying will not be seen. You are on your own, or even worse, your grieving family will be on their own and being sued.

[SASless]

If one has any time in this business.....one has hung one's Neck out awaiting the Fall of Mr. Damocles's Sword. After a while, if one has a modicum of commonsense and understanding of the meaning of "Mortality"....one alter's one's behavior and minimum weather standards. As this is a very exacting business at times.....a moment's inattention or distraction can lead to bad outcomes. If those moments are combined with gross errors in judgment, poor proficiency, or just plain bad luck....you are really in for trouble. Fledglings and even Old Farts need to heed the wisdom of mending one's erring ways. The most difficult word in a Helicopter Pilot's Lexicon is the one syllable word "NO!" when used in the Imperative Tense. Once uttered....it should never be retracted especially under duress, pressure, or persuasion, unless one independently surfaces new and more accurate information upon which to make the same decision as before but using the new and more accurate data. Then, in the absence of the extraneous input from before.....a new and fresh decision can be made.

Bottom line...it is Ass, Tin, and License in that priority. Save your hide first...then try to save the Aircraft....and last of all worry about your license. Without the other two the license is of no value....without you....the other two are meaningless. The Aircraft is a reusable container that is there to protect the occupants...use it to your best advantage.

Fly Safe....it might be boring...but it pays off in the long run.

[fluffy5]

Yep, I agree with Sasless. Unfortunately some of you may not agree but the above thread it is a sad one. Talking about a guy who ploughed it into a hill, in bright staring sunshine, pilot error or aircraft techinal problems, but at such low level will not give you much time either way. I had dealings with AJ, and he may have been the best guy and family loved him, like all of us that go up in the air...... but if I want to say certain things, it would be unprofessional.

Fluffy5

[toptobottom]

Am I missing something here? The facts in the AAIB report indicate perfectly clearly that the cause of the accident is unknown. Given that that conclusion is the result of a thorough investigation by experts, what evidence exists to support the claim that ...Mr Smith failed to consult charts of the terrain of his intended route, failed to plot a route which avoided obstacles, had not planned the flight properly, and didn’t take account of the mountain.
...failing to ensure the flight could be safely completed, failing to update the flight navigation system and failing to appreciate that continuing on the same course, at the same altitude and speed, would inevitably result in a collision with the mountain. "...didn’t take account of the mountain"?! How on earth did this ever get to court :confused:

I'd be interested in FlyingLawyer's views..

[paco]

lewy - I've long been an advocate of having "technical juries" - i.e. a small panel of experts who know what they (or you in the dock) are talking about. More a tribunal than a court case. Juries are supposed to be made up of your peers. I suggest you wouldn't find too many with a pilot's licence.

Many juries have convicted people wrongly in the face of common sense because they want to believe the authorities rather than the facts (wanting to get home quicker probably has a lot to do with it). As an example, you or I would appreciate that the h/v curve is normally advisory and not validated for approaches anyway, but if you land badly in a hotel and some lawyer persuades them them otherwise...........

"to inquire into matters of fact ". Juries don't inquire, except perhaps a Grand Jury. And they are very often not presented with exonerating facts either.

Your definition is OK for law college but not for the real world. Mine may be a little cynical and facetious, but I suspect it's much closer to the truth, with all due respect to the people who genuinely wish to do their civic duty. The essential point is that you will have to explain your actions and decisions to people who simply may not understand, so fly accordingly (Sasless has it right). I'm sure an expert witness or two out there will have something to add.

"Failing to update the navigation system"? Where's the law that says you have to use it?

phil

[SASless]

Paco....


"Failing to update the navigation system"? Where's the law that says you have to use it?"

You would not want me as the Plaintiff's Counsel if you ran that one up the flag pole!

Rule Two of being a good Lawyer...."Never ask a question you do not know the answer to...or you do not want the answer to."

[Whirlygig]

It's a common thing to do when one has lost someone close to them ... place blame. I know, I've been there.

I understand that Charles Stisted's widow need to come to terms with her bereavement and placing blame is part of that. I wish that she could also understand that there is another widow who is similarly grieving and no doubt going through her own turmoils of blame and wondering whether her husband really did cause his own, and others', deaths.

Whatever happens, I cannot see any good coming from it. Financial and legal gain does not ease the grief; only time can do that.

If Mrs. Stisted or her representatives should read this, I would urge that the decision to commence legal action be reconsidered.

Cheers

Whirls

[OvertHawk]

It could be that AJ's estate is not the true target of this litigation and that they hope that by establishing that he was responsible then they can move on to the much wealthier estate of the person that employed him in the first place... Either way - it must be terrible for AJ's family.

For balance, however, lets remember that there is a woman now bringing up two kids on her own (very possibly without an income?) who's wondering why a helicopter that had nothing identifiable found to be wrong with it flew straight and level into a well known mountain.... there are two sides.

Remember this is a civil court, so it's not "beyond reasonable doubt" it's "balance of probabilities".

I'm afraid that i think this one might have longer legs than many of us will be comfortable with...

food for thought
OH

[Helinut]

I believe there was a similar move by the widow/partner of the pax in the Mick Goss/Harding accident. Not sure what the outcome was: does anyone know? [I am not suggesting there is any similarity between the circumstances of the accidents, but the legal relationships are not radically different].

For civil cases, such as these, the test is one of the balance of probabilities, so it is much easier to argue the case as a plaintiff than as a prosecutor. Some might think that, if you have the funds, it is therefore "worth a punt".

Talking generally, as I have no particular knowledge of this case, (other than knowing AJ a little), it seems to be the modern way is for the bereaved to desire to blame someone through the courts. The only certain winners in such a case will be the lawyers, of course.

It is a cautionary tale for all of us who operate freelance/self-employed or indeed through our own service company. Who wants to have their family facing such a legal case, after their death, presumably with the prospect of losing the family home? However, what do you do to prevent or mitigate it, other than be careful and cautious (as SASless suggests)? I am distinctly less "bold" than I used to be, these days. Expect support from no one.

I raised this issue of the freelancers' liability in a thread a while back. One key practical step suggested was to try and get you, as an individual, named on the aircraft insurance. This may be easier in some cases than others.

[paco]

SASless - I hear you, but AJ had a lot of time in the province and could be expected to know where those mountains were, with or without navigation systems. We ought to get the public away from this idea that just because there's a machine in the cockpit you have to obey it. How many times have I had surveyors in the back "navigating" with a GPS where good map reading has told me they were way out.

it would be a good argument with a counsel, that's for sure. :)

As for freelancers, they don't have the "master and servant" protection that an employee would have, such as it is in modern times. Public liability insurance would be a good step, as would making yourself into a limited company.

Phil

[Savoia]

Side Comment:

As a (related) side comment and following SAS's 'word to the wise' this episode with AJ highlights one of the potential and unique 'pressures' of corporate flying.

Corporate drivers (for the most part) get ribbed for what many perceive as earning an 'easy buck' and in some cases this is indeed so. Everything has its place though and I've always believed that corporate assignments are ideal as a pre-retirement placement in which the client benefits from the driver's experience and the driver gets to enjoy what is usually a less stressful job.

There are however, as mentioned above, some unique pressures which apply to corporate flying and 'persuasion from above' is a bigger challenge than many at first recognise. It echoes what was said earlier about knowing when and being able to .. say no.

In the corporate plank world there was an epic accident in 2001 which strikingly highlighted this challenge.

N303GA was an Avjet-owned GIII which ploughed into the ground just short of the theashold at Aspen in Colorado killing all aboard. 'Pressure' from the client is considered by many to have been a dominant contributing factor to the crash.

For those with the time, a copy of the Accident Report may be found here (http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/fulltext/aab0203.html) and makes, as these things always do, for depressing reading.

[rotorspeed]

It is not at all surprising that Mrs Stisted is claiming for her loss as a result of this accident - it is quite normal for any party to do so as a result of an accident of any type, and she will of course be doing so with legal advice.

What is interesting is why she is claiming against the estate of the pilot. I would have expected the aircraft insurance to include adequate public liability cover for the passengers carried. So perhaps either the insurance company are declining to pay out for some reason, or the level of PL cover is insufficient to meet the claim.

The most important thing is that particularly freelance pilots should be very clear who is going to meet any claim in the event of an accident when they are flying an aircraft. Whenever there is loss, there is very likely to be a claim, and given the % of aircraft accidents that are caused by pilot error it is no surprise that the pilot is likely to be sued for negligence. Make sure the insurance of any aircraft you fly covers you for any public liability claims. If it doesn't, maybe you can get your own PL cover. But if no insurance covers you, expect your estate to get sued in the event of an accident.

And finally let's not forget that the most important reason to make sure all documents and legislation is complied with, is that insurance may well be invalidated if it is not!

I'm no expert however, so hopefully we can see some comments from Flying Lawyer here. Assuming he's not involved.

[SASless]

Paco.....whenever these kinds of things happen we all ask ourselves "What Happened?" when we really mean "Could that be me one day?". We see very experienced, well qualified friends, come to a sad end and it reminds us of our own vulnerability.

If this legal proceeding does continue....there shall be some interesting argument in Court. Hopefully, someone will be able to report them to us as it would be very educational reading. I have been involved in similar tribunals as a witness and understand only too well how Counsel can twist words, spin facts, and manipulate data to their advantage.....and make what they are saying sound plausible to the Jury who most times are thick as two short planks when it comes to the matters being discussed. That is where "perception" trumps "fact"....and unless the Judge keeps a close rein on the hearing.....bad Jury decisions can occur.

[ShyTorque]

Sobering and sad thought that a bereaved family could be forced to give up their home and worldly wealth because of a human error over something in which they took no part or had no personal responsibility for.

[SASless]

Absolutely the ****s.....especially when it is the Law!

[Savoia]

UK Press Association, 22nd February 2012


The pilot of a helicopter which crashed killing a friend of the Prince of Wales may have been incapacitated, an inquest has heard.

Anthony Smith, 63, flew into the side of a cloud-shrouded mountain in the Mourne range, Co Down, in October 2010.

The Prince's friend Charles Stisted, 47, chief executive of the Guards Polo Club at Windsor, was a passenger on the flight returning to England after attending an exclusive shooting party at an estate in Co Tyrone.

Construction company businessman and fellow polo player Ian Wooldridge, 52, and experienced pilot Mr Smith, formerly of the RAF and Army with service in Northern Ireland, also died.

Air Accident Investigation Bureau investigator Paul Hannant said the helicopter flew at 150 knots into the mountainside.

"This is part of the mystery, that somebody of that ability and great experience would not take a risk in flying into cloud below the level of the high ground, it is something that you simply do not do," he said. "This is why I have come towards some form of incapacitation but that is a personal view."

A warning system of high ground was turned off. Parts of the aircraft were scattered across a large area of inhospitable mountainside.

No illness was discovered in Mr Smith, although his remains were scattered over a wide area and a full post-mortem examination could not be carried out, a pathologist said.

The Press Association: Helicopter tragedy 'a mystery' (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5haDs_xXn96DRO2ZsHYsP7PFqD6dQ?docId=N065944132982644323 8A)

Old Chart Theory

Helicopter pilot may have seen old map - UTV Live News (http://www.u.tv/Articles/Article.aspx?guid=8094662a-a240-4422-b374-2804a2aba048)


A chart on the wall at St. Angelo Airport in Enniskillen, where the pilot waited before picking up his passengers, was out of date and may have been produced in 2008, a witness told the Belfast inquest.

He added: "They had their own charts and Mr Smith had a chart that was up to date and he would have known that it was the latest chart."

Lawyer Jonathan Chambers said if Mr Smith had looked at the chart at Enniskillen, he might have believed that the prohibited zone still existed.


~ ~ ~

A lot of rubbish starting to be spouted now and one can expect even more (as mentioned) if this goes to trial.

The only concern should be that of establishing, as accurately as possible, the cause of the crash and its possible future prevention. As for the rest - those seeking recourse need to ask themselves some solid 'life questions'.

[toptobottom]

A lot of rubbish indeed - but all fodder for the prosecuting counsel to present to an ignorant jury... :(

The incapacitation theory would explain an awful lot, particularly as the AP was engaged and he hadn't changed HDG/ALT for some 10-12nm. The 2 pax in the rear could easily have been completely oblivious to the pilot slumped in his seat. Or worse still, completely aware.

[kitsch]

Hi this is Angie's brother, AJ's brother in law. I was at the Coroners Inquest in Belfast which ran for four days with the Jury's narrative verdict on the fifth day. The inquest went into minute detail on all aspects of the accident culminating with a presentation by the AAIB and a summing up by the Coroner. For friends of AJ you might like to know that the Coroner described AJ as "no ordinary pilot but an exceptional pilot", he also said "Captain Smith was highly respected by his colleagues and peers which I consider to be the gold standard by which any professional achievement can be measured". I appreciate that for readers of this blog it is interesting to speculate about what may have happened but the truth is we will never really know. The conclusion reached by the experts, the AAIB, was that some kind of "incapacitation was likely" - knowing AJ and the facts surrounding the case I am of the same opinion. The purpose of the AAIB is to improve aviation safety by determining causes of air accidents and making safety recommendations intended to prevent recurrence. The AAIB didn't make any safety recommendations which means in their expert opinion, nothing about the flight planning , preparation or anything else could have been changed to avoid a recurrence. There has also been a lot of speculation sparked by the Express article. Don't worry Angie is not paying anyone £300,000 and just because claims are made it doesn't make them true or accurate.

[Whirlygig]

Excellent post kitsch ...:D I do hope that any pending legals do not cause your family too much grief. It sounds like you're pretty grounded and strong.

Cheers

Whirls

[Epiphany]

Ditto to Whirls post Kitsch. Thinking of Angie and family.

[MightyGem]

Nice to hear kitsch. I didn't know AJ personally but as ex AAC I certainly knew of him. :ok:

[Thomas coupling]

I'm an ex Navy pilot, I currently teach RAF pilots and I know Paul Hannant from my time in police aviation. Firstly an inordinate number of pilots across tri service knew AJ. Every single one of them have respect for his professionalism - in my experience this is unique. The bloke was no fool.

What is gathering pace, is the need for current operators (pilots), especially freelance, to acclimatise to the fact that part of them now has to become a lawyer, so they can competently negotiate the minefield that is litigation.
Even the military have reacted (albeit late) by adopting MAA.
Slowly but surely the days of being a pure aviator, are over. Most modern commercial pilots have to be a mixture of:
Admin / accountant / lawyer...to survive.

Paco touches on an example about the a/c nav system.

It is not that there is legislation controlling the use of a nav system, perse; it is the fact that if prosecuting third party can identify a trait that the pilot was 'derelict in their duty' by not utilising said system properly, they will. They will build a picture of unprofessional behaviour which they hope will lead to the balance of probability that the pilots actions contributed to the accident and hence liability exists.

Where has all the fun gone these days.
The ONLY good news to come from this is that AJ died doing what he loved doing. RIP buddy.

[212man]

The ONLY good news to come from this is that AJ died doing what he loved doing

And, having seen the wreckage several times, there may be some consolation in knowing that nobody on board would have known what happened.

[Savoia]

What is gathering pace, is the need for current operators (pilots), especially freelance, to acclimatise to the fact that part of them now has to become a lawyer, so they can competently negotiate the minefield that is litigation.


There is certainly room for a European asociation to serve freelance drivers to which one might contribute a moderate annual fee in return for being professionally represented in the event of litigation (especially relevant with certain clients).


Where has all the fun gone these days.

TC, you are not alone, several feel this way. The 'fun' in flying (or perhaps one could call it the sense of adventure or freedom) has gone the way of many things in Europe .. into the quagmire which is centralisation, bureaucracy and external control.

As you know, successive generations find it easier to accept that which we may question as they will have been raised with these 'restrictions' largely in place. For them to aspire to the role of a well-coordinated IT specialist versed in administration, law and accounting while conducting perpetual risk assessments, reviewing new policies and flying .. will be quite normal I am sure.

It is, as always, hardest for those who recall a time when things were, how can one describe it, less complicated!

[SASless]

Ronaldus Magnus (Ronald Reagan to the unknowing and Liberal Left) said "Freedom is just one generation from extinction.". In time....shy of a new Revolution....there shall be no personal freedom.

[Savoia]

I enjoy many of SAS's post and now .. SAS the philosopher .. excellent!

Sadly, what he writes is profoundly true.

There was a British author Eric Blair (grandfather to Tony Blair ;)) who predicted most of what is in evidence today.

[Epiphany]

What a pity his Grandson didn't read it.

[Whirlygig]

There was a British author Eric Blair (grandfather to Tony Blair http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif)Ha ha ha ... Since when was Tony Blair related to George Orwell :8 I'd just hate to believe that the more gullible on here might believe you. :p

Cheers

Whirls

[Swiss Cheese]

Helinut has it right. The current environment in which we fly helicopters is, for all sorts of reasons, quite challenging.

When it comes to looking after yourself, one essential thing to do is to ensure that you are insured when you fly someone else's machine.

It is common for the so called deductible/excess/uninsured amount just for hull claims on a £1m machine to be £50k. I have seen it as high as 10% of the hull value. That can be a difficult conversation with the owner/operator after the fact.

When it comes to cover for passengers and third parties (in the air or on the ground), then make sure you as pilot are insured under the owner/operator policy - and that you are satisfied it is for enough cover. For a single/twin turbine (4/5 seats) with an AOC, normal cover in the UK/EU is usually for a policy around the £7.5-£10m mark.

As pilots, you should not be having to pay any additional premium, as it is normal practice that if the owner/operator approves you to fly the machine, then you are automatically covered to do so. If in doubt, then check the Tech Log for the Insurance Certificate next time.

So, the daily worrying problem is the hull excess in the event of e.g a hard landing, which few pilots can afford to fund themselves, and to which there is no obvious solution.

The insurance market in the UK for helicopters is a duopoly, where the many do not pay for the few.

[nomorehelosforme]

I'm aware that the date of this terrible accident happened on the 23rd October2010 but it was a Saturday, so today is my memory and thoughts of this terrible day.

[nomorehelosforme]

A sad 5th anniversary for all those involved.

[nomorehelosforme]

7 years since thoughts for all

[heliboy999]

9 years. RIP

[formerlongbox]

Can’t believe it’s 9 years, RIP fella

[timprice]

Any accident in a helicopter is sad, can't believe where the time has gone.
RIP. AJ

[nomorehelosforme]

10 years now, will never forget the phone call I received early that Saturday evening, RIP Ian, Charlie and AJ