RN Sub run aground

[Saintsman]

Not really aviation but it seems that the Navy are embracing the spirit of the defence cuts and have decided to get ahead of the game by trying to sink one of their subs....

BBC News - Nuclear submarine HMS Astute 'grounded on rocks' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-11605365)

[Willard Whyte]

An eye-witness said the sub - described as the stealthiest ever built in the UK - appeared to be grounded on rocks.

Hmm, not as stealthy as a lump of granite, it would seem. Perhaps we should consider building our subs out of the stuff. I'll admit buoyancy could be a issue.

[Gainesy]

HMS Astute had already broken new ground (excuse the pun) by catching fire several times while being built. Thus BAE is the first to develop both the self-igniting submarine and the planeless aircraft carrier.

Where do we find such genius?:hmm:

[nav attacking]

Well I never another lucky escape for Cameron and the government. Thank god this didn't happen when dived no MPA any more to help with the SAR efforts...

[brakedwell]

At least the locals can see where their taxes went :{:{
(Better not use their mobiles to alert their friends)

[Chris Kebab]

Speaking to the BBC last month, HMS Astute's commanding officer, Commander Andy Coles, said: "We have a brand new method of controlling the submarine, which is by platform management system, rather than the old conventional way of doing everything of using your hands. This is all fly-by-wire technology including only an auto pilot rather than a steering column"

Hmmmm....

[Shack37]

Just another example of the cuts...............free drydocking

[BOAC]

controlling the submarine, which is by platform management system- designed by Airbus?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Wonder where Tourist, Vecvec et al are the mo?

[Pontius Navigator]

Bet it hasn't got 39,000 tiles now.

[Gainesy]

Wonder where Tourist, Vecvec et al are the mo?

At this time? On a Friday?

You jest Sir.:)

[day1-week1]

What next...getting their new aircraft carrier stuck under a bridge!

At least the there's a coherent plan for Scotland, destroy the East with unemployment and the West with radioactivity!

[hval]

It would appear that HMS Astute was surfaced whilst carrying out a personnel transfer when her rudder became grounded. Contractors are dropped off and picked up near to the Kyle of Lochalsh.

Hval

[Rob Courtney]

Hmmm not so "Astute" after all

[Gainesy]

Yep, got enough Stutes, could do with some more Lerts though.

[Pontius Navigator]

There was a new cruise ship out of Finland that had to steam at speed under the bridge over the Baltic. They were using bottom suck to increase the draft and hence the clearance from the bridge.

Mmm, take the QE upriver, turn around and make a high speed run for the sea. She might have a new bridge after that.:E

[hval]

day1 - week1
the West with radioactivity!

We already have that: - HMNB Faslane, RNAD Coulport, Rosyth, The Rockall Trough (high level nuclear waste dumped there), pollution from Sellafield brought North by currents, Holy Loch & a few other locations.

Hval

[aviate1138]

"They were using bottom suck......"

Ah! The old gay Navy trick, much practised by certain Royals........


Dive! dive! Dive! :rolleyes:

[Moldiold2]

According to the BBC web site 'its Spearfish torpedose and Tomahawk missiles are capable of htting their target at 1250 mile range with pinpoint accuracy' - some range for a torpedoe.

[eastern wiseguy]

So not just Nimrods grounded then........

[F3sRBest]

So not just Nimrods grounded then........

That's more like it.. proper banter :)

[vecvechookattack]

Wonder where Tourist, Vecvec et al are the mo?

I'm at work having a bloomin' good laugh at the Bubble heads......

[Aeronut]

Wonder where Tourist, Vecvec et al are the mo?

No doubt in the bar, drinking an Astute coktail......rum based and on the rocks :E

[EGGP]

I bet they will wish the RAF had an MRA.4 next time it happens if they run aground out at sea.

[vecvechookattack]

I bet they will wish the RAF had an MRA.4 next time it happens if they run aground out at sea.

Why? what would that have been able to do ?

[Willard Whyte]

Could it tow them off then? I know the '4 was meant to be very capable but...

[BillHicksRules]

"Aside from attack capabilities, it is able to sit in waters off the coast undetected, listening to mobile phone conversations..."

Sounds like money well spent!

News of the World journos can do that sitting at the minibar in their hotel!!!

[vecvechookattack]

No, it couldn't tow them off but it could use its radar to locate them and then it could use its radios to relay their position to the tug......Shame we binned the 4 then.!!!!

[glad rag]

No doubt in the bar, drinking an Astute coktail......rum based and on the rocks http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gifGood Stuff!

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRQp5ZrBLNIfC_jY2wdR9gcMj4GltznE83JUGa39Sk cIOcOC_0&t=1&usg=__ewvg7sZyeNclrGpzIA-eEGDk5gs=

They don't like it up them :}

On a more serious note hopefully this rudder incident will not be too serious.

[Cows getting bigger]

Speaking to the BBC last month, HMS Astute's commanding officer, Commander Andy Coles, said:

Surely that should now read

Speaking to the BBC last month, HMS Astute's Ex commanding officer, Commander Andy Coles, said:

[just another jocky]

No, it couldn't tow them off but it could use its radar to locate them and then it could use its radios to relay their position to the tug......Shame we binned the 4 then.!!!!

You mean it's so stealthy that's it's run aground on the surface near Skye and you still can't find it?

[Roland Pulfrew]

No we know why MRA4 was sacrificed though:

The submarine can carry a mix of up to 38 Spearfish heavyweight torpedoes and Tomahawk Land Attack Cruise missiles, able to target enemy submarines, surface ships and land targets, while its sonar system has a range of 3,000 nautical miles.

3000 nautical miles on the sonar!!!!

[hval]

@ Roland Pulfrew

3000 nautical miles on the sonar!!!!

You would be surprised at what todays passive sonar arrays are capable off.

Hval

[just another jocky]

You would be surprised at what todays passive sonar arrays are capable off.

Wow! I bet it's classified what they can do when you turn them on! :}

[melmothtw]

"I bet they will wish the RAF had an MRA.4 next time it happens if they run aground out at sea."


Is that even possible? Is running aground at sea not an oxymoron? Surely, to run aground you have to be in the vicinity of the coast.

Just a thought....

[Jumping_Jack]

...errr....no...you just have to be near the ground!

[melmothtw]

'Near the ground' as in by the coast? Surely, the 'ground' in the middle of the sea is called the sea bed, and if a submarine were to end up stuck on the sea bed I would suggest that it had sunk rather than 'run aground'.

I'm not going to die in a ditch over this, just putting it out there...

[Mike7777777]

In theory, passive sonar can detect an interesting noise from the other side of the world, if the interesting noise is loud enough of course. The real problem is all the other uninteresting noises that tend to interfere with the interesting noise. I'm sure that someone will claim that the wonders of modern technologygytechnolo will permit the filtering of the uninteresting noises.

[hval]

@ Mike7777777

technologygytechnolo

Something like that; and the old fashiondness of oceans & seas.

Hval

[foldingwings]

I think I've just noticed a career opportunity for all those grounded Harrier pilots!

Foldie:ok:

[Mad_Mark]

'Near the ground' as in by the coast? Surely, the 'ground' in the middle of the sea is called the sea bed, and if a submarine were to end up stuck on the sea bed I would suggest that it had sunk rather than 'run aground'.
Ahh, SUBMISS, SUBLOOK, SUBSUNK.

So just how long will SUBLOOK take without a LRMPA to assist in the looking?

Hand grenade, pin, throw, run.... :E

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Willard Whyte]

FW, at least we know they wouldn't be at fault. Ever.

"Of course I didn't run aground, the sea just parted in front of me."

[airborne_artist]

Global warming/climate change is supposed to be causing sea levels to rise. Sea Levels rising = less chance of running aground, or perhaps not? :E

[Willard Whyte]

Ahhh, now we know why they've gone for a belchy oil*-burner not a 'clean' CVN.

*stand by for pedant attack.

[airpolice]

Maybe if the MRa4 had been able to scout ahead of them, the early warning of the rocks could have save a lot of money.

[Willard Whyte]

Pretty sure the rocks may well have been there for a while. Hope their charts were up to date...

[Pontius Navigator]

Pretty sure the rocks may well have been there for a while. Hope their charts were up to date...

Who mentioned the regiment?

[brakedwell]

Somebody took their eyes off the TomTom. :(

[The Helpful Stacker]

Pretty sure the rocks may well have been there for a while. Hope their charts were up to date...

Perhaps they were moved by the RAF.

Apparently they've history of trying to do that to get one over the Andrew.

[forget]

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/sub.jpg

[airborne_artist]

Perhaps they were moved by the RAF.
The RAF moved Australia by 600 nm :E

[Doha_lad]

High Confidence Snort or what?

[Biggus]

...more likely a "sinker"!

[The Helpful Stacker]

The RAF moved Australia by 600 nm

Indeed, hence why I remarked in the same post you quoted,

Apparently they've history of trying to do that to get one over the Andrew.

:ugh:

[ghostie]

When I read the headline "Nuclear sub aground off Scotland", my mind immediately thought of that incident in Swedish(?) waters.

I thought this may be the Nimrods salvation, but no, it wasn't Russian, one of ours.......:(

[foldingwings]

The RAF moved Australia by 600 nm

Is the RAF being blamed for HMS Nottingham hitting Australia a few years back then?

Foldie:E

[Saintsman]

After all the doom and gloom these last few days, there's nothing like someone else's misfortune to raise the spirits ;)

[EGGP]

'Near the ground' as in by the coast? Surely, the 'ground' in the middle of the sea is called the sea bed, and if a submarine were to end up stuck on the sea bed I would suggest that it had sunk rather than 'run aground'.

I'm not going to die in a ditch over this, just putting it out there...
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=6011186)


You can get underwater reefs in the middle of the ocean . It also covers other situations such as a fire etc... sorry BAe have already done that.

[cornish-stormrider]

so is this just a small upset or a major whoopsie for our senior bretheren?

Did the kid driving not pass his playstation test then??

I'll have one of them astute cocktails too please.......
maybe we should nickname the navy whisky -

[pasptoo]

could use its radar to locate them and then it could use its radios to relay their position to the tug

A bus driver going over the Skye bridge could have located them, and using a mobile phone (that the sub was listening to) could have called the NotW jurnos!

No need to sweep the inner sound to find them!
:E

[day1-week1]

The BBC has just shown a MASSIVE, and I mean MASSIVE close up of the entire length of the sub; prop, panels, sensors. As the guy on the TV just said "it WAS Top secret".

Just out of interest, do we own it yet or does it still belong to BAE? There was talk of contractors being lifted off

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

That's the end of the RN initiative code named "Teach women how to park a sub boat", then! :E

[BOAC]

code named "Teach women how to park a sub boat" - oh no! You don't mean.........................? Was there a hairdressing salon or school nearby?

[MATELO]

Congrats to Professor Ross from the University of Pompey....

They shouldn't go aground. Something has gone wrong.

it gets better...

"It's pretty unlikely it will sink," he added.

Nuclear submarine runs aground - Home News, UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nuclear-submarine-runs-aground-2113810.html)

[cornish-stormrider]

It's pretty unlikely it will sink - unless the reactor lets go and turns the inside channel into lava......

What a muppet:suspect: can they find no better commentator, still Mr Putin must be glad of the unique way the bolshevik broadcasting comrades is funded, they have just done what his satellites could not do...

the navy - about to need to cut slightly fewer officers in the SDSR due to a sudden case of court martial

[BOAC]

God bless him - he's 75! I'm sure the journo's mis-quoted him as they do. He is, of course, right, it's just that..........................

"Something has gone wrong. I'm not sure what it is, whether it is man-made or machine made. It could be either." - spot on, Prof.

"I think they will float it again" - yup, I'd go for that before getting a crane.

"It's pretty unlikely it will sink," - I thought that's how they worked?

I wonder how may telephoto shots the baddies have of the exposed hull by now? This is several one up on leaving your laptop or USB stick on a train.:mad:

[67Wing]

The Astute SSN aground in silt has been described on the BBC web site by 'a spokeswoman' as 'not a nuclear incident'. Seems stunningly complacent to me, let's hope they can keep things cool.

[dead_pan]

That's a good few promising careers ruined, then.

What was it doing so close in to shore? Is it amphibious? We need answers.

[david parry]

The sundodgers are not in the same league as the Fish Heads, for being grounded;) http://usera.ImageCave.com/scouse/Wampoo_Docks.jpg

[forget]

The BBC's Iain MacDonald (local guy) said: "This submarine is well outside the navigation channel. Local people are puzzled. It shouldn't have been there - plain and simple."

Oh dear.

[Lonewolf_50]

...more likely a "sinker"!

And also correctly classified as CERTSUB, which is a rarely used, and rarely correctly used, classification in sub hunting.

Granted, this one appears to have been punting, thus not needing hunting ...

[engineer(retard)]

"What was it doing so close in to shore? Is it amphibious? We need answers."

Practicing the post SDSR Land Attack role :suspect:

[hval]

@pastpoo

A bus driver going over the Skye bridge could have located them,

Funny you should say that. A few weeks ago the police nearly asked HMS Astute to move along as she was causing a traffic jam. People were stopping and watching as a personnel change over took place.

@forget,

Going outside navigation channels is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, if sea going naval vessels always stuck to navigation channels it would be rather easy to find them. This area is also often used for contractor crew changes.

Hval.

[Canadian Break]

So, cocktail of the month - "I'll have a stute on the rocks please barman"

[INT ZKJ]

Oh so many to choose from,

"Dolphin 2"

[Fintastic]

The RN, keen as ever to embrace Government initiatives has announced its first of many compulsory redundancies; "The astute of you will realise that the RN has been looking for someone to be at the forefront of our redundancy scheme" an RN spokesman said, we have now identified our candidate.......





:E:E:E

[lomapaseo]

Man or machine error?


After punching in the computer codes for docking, the captain was heard to mutter "what's it doing now??

[david parry]

Bit worrying about all the smoke she is venting

[brakedwell]

I thought only Squadron Leaders had scrapers. :E

[neilmac]

Bet the Captain wishes he did a "Rooney"....a big turnaround.

[green granite]

At least we're heading for spring tides in a few days time, so she should come off ok.

[charliegolf]

Since it's a bit late for a 'bead window' moment, would someone explain the crap belching out please. No, not the posts, the smokey stuff from the sub!
CG

[Tallsar]

Is this event a timely metaphor for the coherence or otherwise of the Defence Review outcome......sorry!

[tubby linton]

The smoke will be the exhaust plume from the back -up diesel.

[air pig]

CO and XO may have completed Perisher, but I doubt they will be driving a sub in the future. Time for a career change, but unfortunatly it will be involuntary.

Regards

Air pig.

[Rossian]

...the CO would have been presented with a wooden toilet seat which had been painted with glue and had sand sprinkled copiously on it. This would have been hung around his neck as the "Grand Order of the Gritty Bottom" and he would be buying the drinks.

The "crap coming out of it" gives the clue that it's not REALLY nuclear powered it's like an old Clyde puffer - coal powered.

The Ancient Mariner

[4mastacker]

Considering she's a new boat, it looks like a little bit of elbow grease applied to all that green, gungy stuff on the hull wouldn't go amiss. Standards seem to be slipping; someone needs keel-hauling.

[Widger]

Just remember that there are more planes in the sea than submarines in the air!!

[SRENNAPS]

Bit worrying about all the smoke she is venting

would someone explain the crap belching out please

The smoke will be the exhaust plume from the back -up diesel.

No, thats just the Captain having a tab.....he had been trying to give up:ooh:

[VX275]

Just for Widger.

Strange but true:
During World War 2 Britain designed and built a parachute system for a submarine. OK it was a small submarine, a one man affair called the Welman, but they really were serious about dropping by parachute, with its crewman aboard as well. However, sense prevailed and the idea was only used for an exploding motor boat.

[rock34]

It's a whole new meaning to having a 'run ashore'. :}

[chiglet]

BBC "News" tonight Four ringer "Spokesman" captioned as Commander XXX. This from an ex crab :confused:

[Archimedes]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01745/2310-MATT_1745392a.gif

[airborne_artist]

http://www.ashbys-alternatives.com/astute.jpg

[onetrack]

So, cocktail of the month - "I'll have a stute on the rocks please barman"

CB - That could be a VERY expensive cocktail... and it would definitely leave a nasty taste in your mouth... :E

[Al R]

Any excuse to play a James favourite.

YouTube - James - Runaground (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaQI_-N2cbY)

With apologies to the crew. :ok:

[TheWizard]

The Skipper can always play this little number when he visits The Admiralty, the first line being particularly apt......

YouTube - Donald Wheres Your Troosers? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDJflQfNUE8)

[Tankertrashnav]

BBC "News" tonight Four ringer "Spokesman" captioned as Commander XXX. This from an ex crab http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif


Not so bad as Countryfile last weekend. During an item on SAR Sea Kings at Culdrose, a two and a half ringer from the unit was identified as "Corporal xxxxx"!

Doubt if anyone on the BBC, including its defence correspondents, has the slightest clue about military ranks.

[Easy Street]

Shunt for Red October (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3192325/Shunt-for-red-October-Royal-Navys-new-nuke-sub-hits-rocks.html)

Another classic Sun headline :D

[green granite]

Bit worrying about all the smoke she is venting

They're just announcing they've elected a new captain.

[GreenKnight121]

Hmmm.... but it was black smoke!

Oh, yes... the Church of England has to do the opposite of the Catholics... so where for the Vatican Black smoke signals failure to agree on a candidate and White smoke indicates a new Pope has been chosen, for the UK & CoE it should be the reverse?

I get it.

[LookingNorth]

Since it's a bit late for a 'bead window' moment, would someone explain the crap belching out please. No, not the posts, the smokey stuff from the sub!
CG

Ripley: [looking at the sub from a window] It's very pretty, Bishop, but what are we looking for?
Bishop: [emergency venting goes off] That's it. Emergency venting.
Hudson: [knows what it is] Ho, that's beautiful, man. Oh man, that that... that just beats it all...
Hicks: How long 'til it blows?
Bishop: Four hours. With a blast radius of 30 kilometers; equal to about 40 megatons.

[14SIX785]

Cdr Andy Coles's desk at MOD Navy no doubt awaits!!:rolleyes:

With apols to Andy Stewart ..

I've just come down from the Isle of Skye
There was a sub up there, high and dry
All the matelots sang 'Och Aye'
Andy, where's our sonar!!

Only pride and the nation's purse were hurt :=

[BOAC]

Never mind 'sonar' - where was the matelot with the knotted string?

[Ivan Rogov]

Maybe a few jobs for our Navs on exchange?

I didn't realise they were painted green aswell as black :D

[Mike7777777]

Meedja claiming old charts.

Localised, directional, low power "pinging" parking sensors required. Just remember to pull the fuse when in stealth mode!

[antisthenes]

Save the Ruskies millions on ASW technology, just buy a stretch of Scottish coastline and wait.

[vecvechookattack]

Meedja claiming old charts.

Do they use paper charts on boats or are the now digital?

[Dysonsphere]

Digital I would think but maybe they cant afford the upgrades.:}

[Mike7777777]

Do they use paper charts on boats or are the now digital?

With my limited knowledge and vague understanding, the primary charts are not hard copy, but paper is available.

At the risk of stating the obvious, it's difficult to comprehend how a UK submarine could have achieved this. Good design and average command skills, or average design and good command skills should have ensured that this did not occur.

GBP1,000,000,000 of someone's tax money and they managed to get it stuck. Words fail me.

[JFZ90]

This may have helped.....

OSI Geospatial Signs UK Navy Submarine WECDIS Software Supply Contract - ASDNews (http://www.asdnews.com/news/30503/OSI_Geospatial_Signs_UK_Navy_Submarine_WECDIS_Software_Suppl y_Contract.htm)

"OSI Geospatial's software was chosen for the UK Royal Navy's most advanced nuclear attack submarine after critical analysis determined that the unique features of ECPINS(R) W (Sub) provide the submariner with a clear tactical advantage in both open ocean as well as the complex littoral battlespace."

...not sure they are as cheap as £1Bn each....

[Neptunus Rex]

They should have had a Rating on the casing swinging the lead, eh, Drapes.

[forget]

Let's, as they say, get real here. The boat has to have been out of control due to some finger trouble during tests and drifted/was blown onto the shoal - is that what they call them?

No doubt the Navy will release more info tomorrow but out of date charts will not be part of the equation. Any takers?

[Dengue_Dude]

I seem to remember a local fisherman being interviewed saying the sub was the wrong side of a couple of buoys indicating the problem . . .

Ooops - is port left or right . . . . ?

[airpolice]

I lived up that way in the summers when I was a lad, and the Isle of Skye has been where it is now for some time.

Exactly how far out of date could the charts be?

[subs57]

For those who have been asking what the smoke was coming out of the top of the fin, I can explain.

What you saw is the exhaust fumes from what is known as the snort exhaust mast. Although the reactor is the primary means of producing power onboard - its nothing more than a posh kettle - there is a fall back to produce electrical power from the diesel generators.

As well as having a snort exhaust mast there is also a need for a snort induction mast to allow air to be induced into the boat as it needs to be able to, if necessary, "snort" submerged.

The point of the DG's is to produce power to essential services. It does not mean, nor do I infer, that the reactor was shut down. It could just as easily mean that the DG's were running, but kept offline.

If you want to know more there is a couple of good photos of the snort masts at

Radio Research Paper - Victoria Class (http://www.jproc.ca/rrp/victoria.html)

These are the ex- UK Upholder class diesel/electric boats that the Canadians purchased

[fallmonk]

Had anyone been able to answer if she has been "signed" for ?
As all the reports mention she won't officialy be in navy service till next year???

With the way things is going for the MoD, she is probably going to have to be repaired at taxpayers expense !
But fingers crossed it's at contractors expense

[Tankertrashnav]

Oh, yes... the Church of England has to do the opposite of the Catholics... so where for the Vatican Black smoke signals failure to agree on a candidate and White smoke indicates a new Pope has been chosen, for the UK & CoE it should be the reverse?




Hmm, so RN = C of E? What if the new Captain is a Catholic? ;)

[F3sRBest]

With the way things is going for the MoD, she is probably going to have to be repaired at taxpayers expense !
But fingers crossed it's at contractors expense


Why the heck should the Contractor pay?????????

[fallmonk]

Because if she is not MoD property yet she's the contractors , till signed on the. Dotted line !

[F3sRBest]

Because if she is not MoD property yet she's the contractors , till signed on the. Dotted line !

1. She is

2. The RN CO grounded her, not the contractor.

Regardless of 1, where is the moral justification for the Contractor paying?

[fallmonk]

Well if she is navy property the tax payer will need to pick up the repair tab.

Tell me your don't think "morals" will come into play when there is a bill possibly for several million pounds ????
Am quiet sure some one for the MoD and BAE(????) was checking the smallprint on it's contract !

[Union Jack]

At the risk of stating the obvious, it's difficult to comprehend how a UK submarine could have achieved this. Good design and average command skills, or average design and good command skills should have ensured that this did not occur.

Interesting statement and I can't help wondering, using the parallel that often appears in respect of aircraft accidents/incidents in other threads, if this is the point at which we should be asking Mike "All the Sevens" to clarify his personal experience of handling a very large nuclear submarine in restricted waters with only the help of a single pump-jet propulsion system.

I wouldn't be hanging anyone just yet, particularly recalling the occasion when a frigate leaving her berth at Guzz "nudged" an SSN on the day she was sailing for an "interesting" patrol. My Admiral described the situation as "the least important ship in the Navy that day striking the most important one in the Navy that day", and there was not even a BOI, far less a court martial.

Jack

[Surplus]

TTN - If the new captain is a catholic, he'll probably get the Spanish Inquisition and not a BOI should he stuff up.

[Dan Winterland]

No one will expect that!





Mud banks shift. I recently ran my boat aground on a mud bank only about 200 yards away from my mooring, where I had previously sailed quite safely before. The chart said I should have 2.5m at lowest tide, the draft of the boat is 2m and the tide was .5m, so a ridge of mud of about 1.0m had appeared since the last survey. Of course, if I had been watching the depth sounder, it would't have happened! I got the boat off by moving everyone to the side and lifting the keel out of the mud.

[spekesoftly]

I got the boat off by moving everyone to the side and lifting the keel out of the mud.Ah, perhaps they don't teach that on "The Perisher" ? ;)

[Mike7777777]

At the risk of stating the obvious, it's difficult to comprehend how a UK submarine could have achieved this. Good design and average command skills, or average design and good command skills should have ensured that this did not occur.

Interesting statement and I can't help wondering, using the parallel that often appears in respect of aircraft accidents/incidents in other threads, if this is the point at which we should be asking Mike "All the Sevens" to clarify his personal experience of handling a very large nuclear submarine in restricted waters with only the help of a single pump-jet propulsion system.?
Astute is not "very large" in terms of nuclear submarines ..

I can categorically state that I have never run one of HM submarines aground, does that help?

At this stage, the boat should not have been anywhere near waters where there is a risk of running aground, particularly where it can be observed by all.

You probably missed the "difficult to comprehend" bit, there's a hint there somewhere.

[Union Jack]

I can categorically state that I have never run one of HM submarines aground, does that help?

No, not really, since your "statement" tells me nothing about your background, and I certainly didn't miss the fact that you seem to be unaware that ships and submarines are referred to by those who know them as "she" .....:D

Jack

(who has conned warships from a frigate to a fleet carrier and, oh yes, a "very large submarine" at BUTEC)

[subs57]

There are quite a few Part 3's on this thread:E

[GANNET FAN]

Since I doubt that anyone here (or possibly very few) knows the handling capabilities of this boat, most of the foregoing is completely irrelevant.

[airpolice]

I am trying to "tug" the thread back in the direction of aviation.....


How do we class this incident, in terms that we are all familiar with?


Has he landed with his gear up or did he bust controlled airspace?

[alfred_the_great]

A strong cross wind coupled with a moments inattention probably led to busting controlled airspace. Probably.

[BOAC]

Since I doubt that anyone here (or possibly very few) knows the handling capabilities of this boat, most of the foregoing is completely irrelevant. - errmm, what about the crew?

[ORAC]

So, if he damaged the tiles will he be on the carpet? :}

[coffindodger]

Or his head on ye ole chopping block.

[GANNET FAN]

BOAC, I meant here as in this thread.

[Union Jack]

How do we class this incident, in terms that we are all familiar with?

Uncontrolled Flight Into Terrain sounds about right ....:ok:

Jack

[Wrathmonk]

Ah .... but was it uncontrolled .... or was the captain perfectly in control right until the crunch?:E

[AQAfive]

Having read post #7 it now becomes clear. Sail-by-wire and the problems you can meet if you don't think ahead. Now I don't know how to drive a nuclear sub and this in no way is an attempt to vindicate said Cdr, however, I do know a little about software and canal boats!


I can imagine boat designer chappie telling the RN:


“Do not worry, this sail by wire is failsafe you cannot run aground, it will not let you. The computer uses your present position and looks up the relevant chart and if you are heading for land will prevent you from hitting it.” Marvellous thinks head Admiral no more expensive repairs and courts martial.


Picture said boat, drifting in waters close to land, Captain supremely confident of his sailing ability. Getting close to the shingle bank,


“No 1, make my heading North and revolutions for 2kts”, (Ok I watch too much TV)
“Aye Aye cap'n”
“Bosun – (or whoever inputs commands these days) make my heading 360 speed 2kts”
“She canna take it sir” - oops got carried away there, try again.
“Sir the helm is not responding”
“Dont be silly she must, it says so on the instruction manual”
“She wont turn sir”
And before you know it the wind pushes this slab of very expensive metal and acoustic tiles gently onto the shingle bank. Why?


Well just like ac and “It will not stall sir”, the sail-by-wire software will consider several conditions before it actions the commands. One of them might well be how close it is to the land and depth of water under the keel. A boat turns around the centre point, well a canal boat does and the wind pushes it a treat. If the software detects that to turn on a particular heading the stern would breach the safety rules with respect to depth under the keel it will not let you turn, and I suspect you turn before you increase speed. So the boat will not manoeuvre and drifts on to the shingle bank, the computer having no influence on the wind.


OK, conjecture on my part, but its the sort of thing that will happen until your old salty sea dog understands the ways of modern software control. Remember the Air France pilot who put his aircraft into landing mode, flies down the runway at 30ft, pushes the throttles forward to overshoot and nothing happens, it does of course, but not in the order he is expecting and not in time for the 40ft trees at the end of the runway to arrest his flight. You have to learn to fly and sail-by-wire, you cannot just jump in an operate as you did before.


And that your honour, is the case for the defence!! Despite what I said in the beginning.

[doubledolphins]

Well I think it's wonderfull that you have had such a lovely time discussing the Submarine Photo Opportunity of a Lifetime. Thank heavens I gave up controlling last year. :\

[BOAC]

the sail-by-wire software will consider several conditions - See! See! I TOLD you it was 'software by Airbus'...................

[cornish-stormrider]

Software by "the lowest bidder"

This situation (wrt the software) is what you get when an engineer says "ok, what happens when....."
the manager above doesn't know and says it can't happen like that....
This is passed up the chain as Gospel and you end up with

Whisky on the rocks

[Mike7777777]

I can categorically state that I have never run one of HM submarines aground, does that help?

No, not really, since your "statement" tells me nothing about your background,
Oh well, never mind.

and I certainly didn't miss the fact that you seem to be unaware that ships and submarines are referred to by those who know them as "she" .....:DShe/it, is it really that important? It's a machine therefore it's an "it", RN traditions not withstanding.

I thought I'd offer a couple of suggestions for you to pass onto those who know:

1) During trials, if Astute is unwieldy and cumbersome, please do not sail within 500 yds of shallow water unless a tug is in attendance, where shallow is 8 fathoms or less beneath the keel at low water. This should apply particularly when others are observing.

2) If there is any risk of going aground for whatever reason, please arrange for this to occur out of sight of anyone, particularly the press.

That should fix it :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

2) If there is any risk of going aground for whatever reason, please arrange for this to occur out of sight of anyone, particularly the press.

Like Lord Howe Island, now that should be OK.

[doubledolphins]

BTW. If you are still looking for an aviation equivalent. Don't forget it (modern naval parlance) was on the roof (surface) not submerged so I would sugest it's a bit like an aeroplane sticking a wheel in to the grass when taxiing. The aeroplane, if a large jet transport, would be stuck for about half a day as well, I expect. :bored:

[BEagle]

Micro$hit Astute.exe has encountered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for the inconvenience.

"Oh bugger. No, not you this time, snotty, I really mean 'bugger it'! Number One, sound 'Action Stations Reboot'!!"

(Cue various Nelsonian whistles, bells, 'pipes' and other matelot noises)

"D'ya hear there. Action Stations Reboot! I say again, Action Stations Reboot!"

"Coxswain, go to 'CTRL+ALT+DEL', if you please!"

"Aye aye, sir"

Click, click, pause.....
Saving your settings......
Pause....

Pause.......

"Coxswain, what's happening?"

"It's saving your...I mean 'our' settings, sir"

"Yes, yes - but when will you be able to steer the sodding boat again?"

"Err, um....it says 'Enter Password', sir!"

"Well, make it so!"

"But what's the password, sir?"

"Err, well, I have half of it, the Captain has the other half"

"Could you enter it then, please sir, because the water under the keel reading seems to be decreasing....."

"Right. It's November, Echo, Lima.....Captain, could you enter yours?"

"Hmm? Oh, OK. Sierra, November, Oscar...bugger!"
Incorrect Password!
"Yes sir?"

"NOT YOU, snotty! Well, not until later..."

"Try again, please sirs, the water under the keel is getting really jolly low!"

"Right then. November, Lima, Echo....

...Sierra Oscar November!"
Incorrect Password!

"SOD IT! Right then, November, Echo, Lima...

...Sierra, Oscar, Lima...oh bolleaux!"
Incorrect Password! You must wait 5 minutes before your next attempt.

"Sirs, water under the keel is now less than one fath......"

CRUNCH!

[gunbus]

Nice one Doubledolphins ONCE NAVY ALWAYS NAVY and proud of it :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

DD, aye, you mean like an HS146 in the Shetlands?

[Union Jack]

DD, aye, you mean like an HS146 in the Shetlands?

PN - Or even Islay? :)

Jack

[Mike7777777]

Like Lord Howe Island, now that should be OK.No, no and no. We need a location more remote than that. I suggest somewhere in the vicinity of Cape Wrath; the cafe owners will think it's some sort of whale and the meedja would never find it. There is a small risk that the RAF will try and bomb it, but this will only act as an incentive to refloat the thing should the worst happen.

I shall now retire and watch "Sink the Bismarck" (again) to remind myself how the meedja should view the RN ;)

(perhaps the real issue is not that Astute ran aground for whatever reason, but that this occurred where it could be observed)

[Pontius Navigator]

DD, aye, you mean like an HS146 in the Shetlands?

PN - Or even Islay? :)

Jack

Yer, alright :)

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/271099-prince-charles-prang-isle-islay-june-1995-a.html

Mind you, giving up flying Royal aircraft at the age of 47 was a bit young as his Dad was flying a Nimrod when he was 55 and he didn't prang it either, but then he may not have done the landing.

[im from uranus]

BBC News - Grounded nuclear sub HMS Astute damaged during rescue (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-11691034)

oops! :ooh:

[BOAC]

Cannot find the Golden Rivet on that diagram (no help, thanks........)

For submariners - shouldn't the planes have been stowed?

[bast0n]

on the hanger....................?

[Union Jack]

For submariners - shouldn't the planes have been stowed?

SSBN foreplanes not routinely stowed since REPULSE lost her port foreplane shortly after diving whilst on passage to the US in Dec 72.

Jack

[Aim between the eyes]

UJ,

Astute is an SSN not a SSBN. :ok:

ABTE

[Double Zero]

When I see RAF people spelling it 'Hanger' I lose all hope...

I doubt it will be digested, but despite GPS & INS, some charts are from Captain Cook's era.

That doesn't excuse the RN for not surveying a critical approach, regularly when one considers the 'customers'...

If the RAF is so brilliant at everything, why is there nothing in the inventory now capable of STOL or carrier operations ?

Oh, I forgot, Cameron ( AKA Goering ) who is trying hard to emulate Thatcher, keen on selling Invincible just before she suddenly became a fan of Carriers & Harriers; it's incredible how the lessons of history are so quickly forgotten when convenient.

And yes I was involved with FA2 & AMRAAM, the biggest loss - funny how when 'The Few' are mentioned the FAA contribution is omitted, even in the recent 'First Light' film.

I'm sure begging to the Spanish or French will go down a treat, but of course the people who make idiotic decisions are never near those who have to deal with the results...

[F3sRBest]

If the RAF is so brilliant at everything, why is there nothing in the inventory now capable of STOL or carrier operations ?

Doh.... clearly all the RAF's fault...

[bast0n]

2X2

When I see RAF people spelling it 'Hanger' I lose all hope...

Sorry - I meant on the hanger - a special feature on Boats in the RN on which to hang useless kit.

Also, if you ever accuse me of being in the Crabs I shall email you with an assault!:ok:

[Union Jack]

Astute is an SSN not a SSBN

If I may "aim between your eyes", that is precisely why I qualified my statement by specifying SSBNs. Since you are obviously such an ace at differentiating between types of submarine, perhaps you will now give us all the benefit of your wisdom in respect of SSN foreplanes, and specifically in respect of ASTUTE.:rolleyes:

Jack

[Easy Street]

why is there nothing in the inventory now capable of STOL or carrier operations ?

Because the Navy, in collusion with Gordon Brown, contrived to make the carriers un-cancellable through devious contract-writing. New government rightly annoyed by being forced to continue with the carriers regardless of outcome of SDSR. Decides no point chucking good money (i.e. GR4 ability to conduct simultaneous HERRICK and contingent ops) after bad.

The Navy have been hoist by their own petard, I would say.

[Aim between the eyes]

Was that a 50 percent flash UJ? Why mention SSBN if you knew Astute was an SSN? You could have qualified it yourself. In point of fact Astute should be classed as a SSGN owing to the nature of her cruise missiles. As for hydroplanes, they're retractable for breaking through ice. I don't pretend to be an expert on subs but I know enough to spot a bluffer me old. :D By the way, I worked in op requirements and procurement in the late 90s when the requirement was written for it... Qualification enough to comment??? :rolleyes:

ABTE

[Union Jack]

I don't pretend to be an expert on subs but I know enough to spot a bluffer me old. By the way, I worked in op requirements and procurement in the late 90s when the requirement was written for it... Qualification enough to comment???

No, not really, especially when you refer to "subs" (yuk!) rather than "submarines, and "it" rather than "her", and certainly not compared with someone who spent so long in a blue suit. So, all in all, you're probably right not to pretend to be an expert ....:E

Jack

[Aim between the eyes]

The reason I said I'm not an expert is because I have only spent one night on trafalgar as part of officer training at dartmouth. I have however spent 2 years as a pinger (and I don't mind admitting my past before jets as many FAA FJ guys came from rotary) and made it my business to know as much as I could about them. Considering I was also the sqn cbo and crypto custodian I had up to TS knowledge. Coupled with my time in OR(sea) I think I have my finger on the pulse better than some. 13 years in a blue suit UJ may not be much but the jobs I have done during that time more than qualify me to comment. Please do elaborate on your superior knowledge as an FDO? Either that or take my comments on the chin as nothing I have said is incorrect. :=

Oh and a wafu can call a ship or sub whatever he or she likes especially when it winds up the fisheads as you have shown!

[bast0n]

ABTE

Well done - especially for a Pinger....................:D

[Union Jack]

The reason I said I'm not an expert is because I have only spent one night on trafalgar (sic) as part of officer training at dartmouth (sic).

As much as that? Well, you said it!

As for the rest of your fascinating resume, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks", whilst your last sentence merely tends to suggest that you are presumably not FCC.....:ouch:

Jack

[D O Guerrero]

Oooh TS?! Well you must know everything there is to know!

[Agaricus bisporus]

Mods. Please close this thread, or relegate it to Jet Blast where it belongs.

It has nothing to do with aviation.
It has from the start been used for uninformed ridicule and finger pointing, ativities usually frowned upon on PPRuNe, especially as a number of careers are in jeopardy which makes it in particularly bad taste.
It is a pretty minor event in any case, probably on the scale of a taxiing accident in aircraft terms.
Now degenerated further into a petty personal slanging match.

[Aim between the eyes]

AB, you are quite right mate. I was getting quite bored of the chief chockhead (UJ). Probably blasted him off a flight deck once on launch and he's never forgiven me.... ;) This a Military Aviation forum after all. Sorry. :ok:

ABTE

[Pontius Navigator]

But a surfaced submarine is a target and the G in SSGN is an air breathing threat :)

[Union Jack]

Sorry.:ok:

ABTE's apology accepted, despite the thoroughly uncalled for rudeness still apparent in his last post towards someone who probably was treading the flight decks of real carriers before he was born.:D

Thoroughly agree with AB.

Diving now!:ok:

Jack

[Aim between the eyes]

PN, don't you mean an SSK mate? As in a diesel electric and therefore needs air for the engines? Although most of them produce their own air underwater from sea water.... :)

[Aim between the eyes]

My apology wasn't aimed at you at all UJ.... Apologise to a chockhead??? :eek: I'd rather slam large parts of my genitalia in a drawer for several hours! :}

PS this is an aircrew forum. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable in this forum:Flight/Ground Ops, Crewing and Dispatch - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/flight-ground-ops-crewing-dispatch-39/)
:rolleyes:

[Red Line Entry]

ABTE,

No it isn't. Read the banner at the top of the page:

Military Aircrew
A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.

[Pontius Navigator]

ABTE, odd as it may seem to you but it is an airbreathing threat. It was the G, as in guided missiles, to which I refered. Once launched they are an airbreathing threat and detectable, trackable and interceptible by air defence forces.

[Aim between the eyes]

My apologies to you RLE. Couldn't resist a final parting shot :E

[Aim between the eyes]

PN, thanks I see what you mean now. :)

[engineer(retard)]

Is that the end of the fish fight now:

YouTube - Monty Python- Fish Slapping Dance! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwLirQS2-o)

[Aim between the eyes]

engineer(retard) that is brilliant! :} I'd completely forgotten about that! Going to watch some vintage Monty Python now.... :ok:

[PPRuNeUser0139]

From the Beeb (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-11853493):

Grounded HMS Astute nuclear sub chief loses command

The naval chief in charge of a nuclear-powered submarine which ran aground off the Isle of Skye has been relieved of his command.

HMS Astute was being put through sea trials when it was marooned last month.

Navy officials confirmed that Commander Andy Coles, 47, lost his command of the submarine on Friday.

He is to remain with the Royal Navy and is to be given another post. A final decision has still to be made about whether he will face a court martial.

A Royal Navy spokesman said: "It's an internal administrative matter between Commander Coles and his senior officers."

He added that a new commanding officer of HMS Astute would be appointed in the near future.

The vessel was towed free on 22 October after becoming stuck on a shingle bank for about 10 hours, before the tide began to rise.

The submarine returned to its base at Faslane on the Clyde three days after the incident.

The Navy spokesman said repairs had been completed on the £1bn vessel, but the final cost of the work was still being calculated.

He said: "It will be paid out of the existing MoD budget."

He added a service inquiry into the incident had concluded and its findings were being considered.

The submarine was built by defence giant BAE Systems at Barrow-in-Furness, Cumbria.

It is the first in a fleet of six which will replace the Trafalgar-class submarine.

[Dengue_Dude]

It's going to wear that shingle bank out if there's another 5 subs to come . . . not exactly environmentally friendly that.

That's probably a mussel bed for some illegal immigrant fisherman who'll sue for millions.

Sad end to a career, but entirely predictable, not exactly the advertising the Andrew needed - especially at this time.

[Neptunus Rex]

A final decision has still to be made about whether he will face a court martial.I thought that in the Royal Navy, whenever a ship suffered damage, court martial of the Captain was automatic.

An apocryphal tale has it that a Commander RN, who had been 'passed over' for promotion, was the captain of a frigate, and dinged the bow of said ship whilst coming alongside. The subsequent court martial sentenced him to some loss of seniority, which put him back in the promotion bracket and he was subsequently elevated to Captain RN.

[Willard Whyte]

He said: "It will be paid out of the existing MoD budget."

When will they learn that 'third party, fire & theft' insurance is rarely sufficient.

[Thelma Viaduct]

The Captain of the sub has learned a valuable lesson.

If he was good enough before the incident, then surely with his valuable lesson learned, he is now even more suitable. What an absolute waste of experience and expertise.

The people that make these decisions are idiots of the highest order.
Service mentality has very little to do with common sense.

No doubt it is the same kind of high ranking ar$e licking officer that won't say NO to politicians, yet still like to think they're in a position of power. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Rossian]

...that a certain RN chap who (alledgedly) "lost" some sensitive papers on a London tow path which fell into the hands of the press; nonetheless went on to do quite well in the Admirality.

The Ancient Mariner

PS Neppy the way I heard the tale was that a submarine beached itself at the bottom of FOSM's garden. The outcome was as you reported.

[glad rag]

If he was good enough before the incident, then surely with his valuable lesson learned, he is now even more suitable. What an absolute waste of experience and expertise.

Thats actually quite a fair point.

That said, it's a dog eat dog world just now.......

[Tourist]

Unless, of course, the fact that he ran it aground proves that he wasn't good enough........


I feel I should point out that I have no knowledge either way, just saying.

[Union Jack]

An apocryphal tale has it that a Commander RN, who had been 'passed over' for promotion, was the captain of a frigate, and dinged the bow of said ship whilst coming alongside. The subsequent court martial sentenced him to some loss of seniority, which put him back in the promotion bracket and he was subsequently elevated to Captain RN.

I have certainly heard a similar story, albeit without mention of any specific incident, but I would have to be somewhat sceptical about Rossian's:

the way I heard the tale was that a submarine beached itself at the bottom of FOSM's garden because, assuming that we are talking about Dolphin House at Gosport, the house in question is located 0.7 NM from navigable water and 0.3 NM from salt water of any depth!:=

However, Rossian's dit could be an oblique reference to the perhaps equally apocryphal tale of a certain Nigel Lawson (yes, that Nigel Lawson) running the aptly named FPB GAY CHARGER up the Wardroom lawn at HMS HORNET during his National Service.

Incidentally, before the sadly almost inevitable scatological humour about the GAY Class rears its ugly head, the word had at that time none of the modern connotations it now does.:sad:

Back to the real issue, Commander Coles has done a first class job bringing ASTUTE from building through trials up to acceptance and, obviously without the benefit of knowing what came to light in the BOI, I really had hoped that "the powers that be" would let him get on with the job in hand. For several reasons, all good, I certainly would not like to be whoever gets a pierhead jump to relieve him.

Jack

[Old-Duffer]

............. to Cdr Coles, I understand that the captain of HMS Nottingham, which hit a rock off an island called Australia, has since been promoted from the rank of Cdr to Capt.

When that happened, I watched his interview on TV and I thought; 'here is a true man of honour and integrity'. He was straightforward about what happened, he didn't try to blame anybody and he took 'the buck stops here' on his own shoulders. We now know that it was his command and leadership which actually saved the vessel from sinking after the incident.

I raise my glass to you Sir, well done R****** F*********, I'd serve with you anyday.

O-D

[Widger]

Pious,

You make a very good point. If the aviation world behaved the same way, there would be no senior pilots. It is interesting that this incident happened during a very simple manoeuvre, much like once a pilot has completed the tactical part of the sortie, he relaxes and then balls up the landing in Blue/Blue conditions. The difference in the aviation world is the no blame culture, which is actively promoted and encourages others to learn from mistakes. Humans are fallible and in a submarine, crew resource management is a significant challenge.

Human factors. Low arousal, post period of high attention, familiarity, teamwork. Local knowledge, complexity of equipment.

[Double Zero]

The story I heard was that there were senior officers aboard conducting an overview assessment.

At end of play they 'requested' Astute go in close to drop them off, promptly running aground; so Cdr.Coles would not even have taken Astute there if he hadn't felt obliged...

Also, I sailed a while with an RN Navigator - he reckoned if a ship he was in even thought about touching the seabed, it was him who'd be facing a CM for sure, with the C/O optional; this seems reasonable to me, but I've not heard anything re. the nav. on Astute.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Widger,

You get the point :ok:

It just seems a pathetically childish action to take with someone who is at the top of their game.

The fella would be a better sub commander because of the accident, not worse, he becomes even more potent. Everyone learns from their mistakes, I don't see why people in top 1% would be any different.

There won't be a decent reason for his 're assignment', it's purely service 'mentality' dictated by people with zero common sense & no balls.

[forget]

... a pathetically childish action to take with someone who is at the top of their game.

Agreed. Shame on you 'Senior Service'.

ex crab.

[eastern wiseguy]

At end of play they 'requested' Astute go in close to drop them off, promptly running aground; so Cdr.Coles would not even have taken Astute there if he hadn't felt obliged...


IF TRUE

A commander of a nuclear sub was co-erced into something which was unnecessary and ultimately unsafe?

Poor judgment I think.

[kiwibrit]

Hmm. Overtones of XA897?

[airsound]

I seem to remember that, with respect to the pole, greasy, naval orficers for the shinning up of, if you wanted to be an admiral, you had to have been:
a. divorced, and
b. court-martialled.

I wonder if that's still the case...

airsound.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Pious pilot, I think it is your posts that are pathetically childish. It would seem from your remarks that you have no experience of the military whatsoever. If you had you'd understand that warfighting is not the same warm, fluffy politically correct cushy little nest that you live in.

Levels and expectations of responsibility in the military are vastly different from those in civvy street, and isn't that right and proper considering the sort of kit they are in charge of?

If he's not seriously culpable he's probably still got a decent career ahead of him. A court martial always used to be said to be necessary for serious advancement.

Do you suppose he, the Admiralty or his future crew would want to be thinking every time he got into shallow water "I wonder if the bugger's going to run us onto the putty again?" It wouldn't work, would it?

ps. Ever heard of the expression, "Pour encourager les autres?"

[Thelma Viaduct]

Ab,

You couldn't be further from the truth, but I suppose even you are entitled to an opinion, even though it's based on pure BS.

[AllTrimDoubt]

Ab

Bs

[Widger]

Ab

what a load of


Bs

[andyy]

I don't know the exact reasons why Cdr Coles was removed from Command but it should be borne in mind that this was his second SSN Command (a very very rare occurence) & he was chosen to bring Astute into Commission because of his experience. All of that will have been taken in to account, I don't doubt. He may have been in Command of Astute for a while now, I don't know, & maybe was due to leave anyway in the New Year (Commands are often only about 18 months - 2 years long) & if the repairs required are to take a while, meaning that she would not go back to sea before Cdr Coles was due to be replaced anyway, perhaps the decision was taken to allow the new CO to bed in for a long period before recommencing sea trials.

[Trim Stab]

It sounds a bit daft that everyone on board would think he's going to ground himself everytime he's in shallow water, I've flown with pilots who have made pretty bad landings and no one really thinks that means they are going to screw up every landing from there on in. People are people, they make mistakes!


Running a submarine aground is a more serious error than making a bumpy landing in an aircraft. It is more akin to forgetting to put the gear down altogether.

I agree that the submarine commander should face a court-martial and be suitably punished if found culpable. Accountability is the bed-rock of any well run organisation.

Just imagine the consequences if the RAF did not publicly punish officers who made negligent wheels up landings - it would happen again and again.

[Agaricus bisporus]

As none of you paragons have deigned to say which bit is bs no one is any the wiser. I'm hard pushed to see why it's bs though as it is seems pretty factual to me - that's just what happened/happens.

Or are you saying logic doesn't enter into it and the Navy does that because its always done thet, or its backward or just plain nasty?

If I'm that wrong do please let us share your wisdom?

[AllTrimDoubt]

Ab

Total bs.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Aah! A Troll.

[Thelma Viaduct]

In the aircraft world you're taught from early doors the importance of integrity.

Integrity & the 'blame culture' are mutually exclusive.

Other than getting rid of a skilled captain with many years of experience, what has really been achieved other than PR for the benefit of the rags???

He is just as capable, if not more so, than before the accident and his training will have taken years and cost many £'s. Not to mention the loss of experience.

I'll let you join the dots.

The bloke made a mistake, show me someone that has not.

[LookingNorth]

"He is just as capable, if not more so, than before the accident"

So you would want to reward failure and keep him in the job.

It's the RN, not a modern PC classroom where no answer is wrong, nobody is stupid or incompetent and nobody takes any responsibility when they make a monumentally gash decision. Bleh, what am I saying...

[Thelma Viaduct]

How is keeping the job you already had a reward for failure???

Promoting him would be a reward for failure.

The chances of him repeating his 'error of judgement' must be slim to zero, and therefore all his training and experience has gone to waste.

The easy option is sacking him and that's the bottlers choice.

I'm out of this now, got nothing further to add. :ok:

[Modern Elmo]

He is just as capable, if not more so, than before the accident

How do you know that he is "just as capable"? Furthermore, "accident" is not the same as "negligent mistake." The grounding may or may not have been an accident. We PeePruners don't know which it was.

... and his training will have taken years and cost many £'s.

Maybe his training was flawed. Again, we don't knoiw.

Not to mention the loss of experience.

Napoleon I: "Don't show me a good man ( i.e., officer. ). Show me a lucky man."