View Full Version : Corruption of Standards

Ken Borough
22nd Oct 2010, 02:52
Has there been a corruption of standards? Airlines like to proclaim their OTP as 'within 15 minutes of schedule'. If this is really the case, why do they account for every minute past STD rather than just any delay beyond 15 minutes?

When punctuality became an issue, most carriers considered

- delayed departures as being more than 3 minutes late, and

- delayed arrivals being more than 15 minutes late at destination.

Over time, no doubt to suit the carriers (and the various service providers) and to make them look better, there has been a redefinition of what constitutes a delay. Why should carriers be allowed any more wriggle room to enhance their performance? To take the argument further, should a flight that incurs a delay of up to 15 minutes on a short sector such as SYD/MEL or BNE be considered 'on time'? Let's be reasoanble. On the other hand, a 15 minute departure delay on a long haul sector often makes not a jot of difference to achieving a scheduled arrival, especially when block times are set on a reasonably low probability.

Further, consumers buy according to either the arrival or departure time of a flight. Accordingly, is it reasonable arguable that any flight that departs or arrives other that at the published STD or STA is late.

Comments and thoughts encouraged!

On punctuality, Jetstar has this little gem on its website:" Jetstar uses the computerised Aircraft Communication Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS), to record on-time performance data, a much more accurate and reliable process than the manual systems used by other airlines." Are they suggestinmg that they are the only mob to use ACARS?

22nd Oct 2010, 03:35
BTRE has for a long time now used 15 minutes of scheduled time as the standard to assess on time or not. It is a fair measure when taking into account weather and various air traffic issues. With CTMS and flow computers controlling your final arrival time usually within 15 mintutes if you removed that buffer almost all flights would be late arriving.

Another consideration to add is turbo-props vs jets. Appart from the Q400 most turbo-props run around at max cruise power for normal operations, jets however usually can increase speed if running late to make up time, especially over the longer sectors. So sector length is not really a consideration, a delay on a short sector is less likely to be reduced.

OTP is more a factor of good scheduling with sufficient turnaround times and allowances for prevailing winds and weather. A little smart operating by crew and strict cut-off time for pax at the gate will add a couple of percent as well.

Airlines use 3 minutes for departure to log trends and react to consistant delays before they reach the 15 minute mark on a regular basis. The schedule can then be adjusted for re-occuring issues.

my oleo is extended
22nd Oct 2010, 05:22
Has there been a corruption of standards? Airlines like to proclaim their OTP as 'within 15 minutes of schedule'. If this is really the case, why do they account for every minute past STD rather than just any delay beyond 15 minutes?

Ken, your post is crap. Go back to what you do best -- probably working at McDonald's or Sizzler's, and leave airline business to aviators.

Ken, you are a knob !

22nd Oct 2010, 06:49
Just a continuation of the garbage Ken posts here.

I second the motion that Ken is a knob.

22nd Oct 2010, 08:42
I think you will find there is simmering discontent between the QF airlines and Virgin as QF can't cheat because they use ACARS but Virgin being a fully manual system can fudge the figures. I have heard QF executives bring up this point numerous times in the past in regard to OTP.

22nd Oct 2010, 09:36
QLink also use manual times (same as Virgin) and account for a very large number of movements. In every document I have seen with QLinks data has been incorporated into Domestic (which is annoying as I like to see how I am doing no Qantas), I have seen the same thing with a min shaved here and there to help with the figures. After all if you lie and say you left 3min late and not 4 then you don't have to explain yourself to upstairs. :hmm::suspect::ugh:

my oleo is extended
22nd Oct 2010, 10:10
The other challenge for the LCC's is that to operate at a low cost base they often use stand-off facilities, which themselves are often located in crap parts of the airport etc, so delays are more often or more likely.
The LCC's like Jetstar and Tiger have shorter turnaround times which leaves a greater chance of a delay.

When JQ were doing 25 minute turnarounds on the 320's around 85% went out late due to a ludicrous turn time alotted. As a few posters have mentioned over the years and threads, with different airlines operating different aircraft types, different airport structures, different 'time' recording procedures etc etc you end up literaly with a completely different playing field for the whole group.

The overall stats that are released each month is based upon the facts mentiond above, plus the fact that every airline 'fiddles the books' when it comes to OTP, there are too many rorts and tricks for me to number, heck I even made up a few myself !
It is all smoke and mirrors folks, always has been and always will be.

Did I metion that Ken is a knob ?

23rd Oct 2010, 02:45
The jet side of QLink use ACARs.

23rd Oct 2010, 03:37
And of course ACARS can't be duped :ugh:

(...takes up popcorn, closes doors, releases park brake.......sets park brake, picks up paper...)

my oleo is extended
24th Oct 2010, 05:49
And of course ACARS can't be duped :ugh:

Nice one ! I am yet to find any type of recording system that can't be coerced, massaged or 'duped'.

However poor ol Ken, he so wishes to be an aviation expert yet 'duped' seems to be his middle name, or is his middle name 'knob' ???