US Flight and duty reg vs EU

[night mission]

The FAA has a proposal out to update the FAR's to reflect scientific standards as to fatigue for flight crew. You are welcome to review the FAA proposal at http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faa.gov%2Fregulations_policies%2Frulema king%2Frecently_published%2Fmedia%2FFAA_2010_22626.pdf&ei=2KDATMGgEtC6jAeOyuCeCg&usg=AFQjCNFTuVuq2cQrJBp-rOuQIS4RaRHBkA . I have reviewed UK's EU CAP371 and EU-Ops subpart Q, neither of which deals will flight time limits on a day to day basis.
I was hoping someone more familiar with scheduled flying in the EU would comment on your experiences regarding flight hours flown in a single duty period vs sectors operated.
We are having a spirited debate on another aviation forum in the US and I'm looking for on the ground opinions about operating more than 8 flight hours during the day. It would appear you have no flight limit just duty, a difference to the US.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

NM
Both CAP371 and sub part Q have flying limits. CAP371 depends on time of report and sectors flown. Sub part Q is similar although a little less restrictive.
As for 8 hours your having a laugh :\

[Big Tudor]

CAA's master version of CAP371 is here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF). Scroll down to page 21 and Table A Two or more flight crew - Acclimatised. Max Flight Duty Period is based on local time of start and number of sectors.

You're right that there is no daily limit to flying hours in UK per se, it is limited by the duration of your FDP which , if you have a one hour report time, could mean you are doing 13 flying hours (although see the next page on limits on two crew long range ops). Limitations on pure flying hours are only applied on a rolling 28 day and annual basis.

"If it was easy everyone would do it!" :)

[Mr Mugabe]

:ugh:You will find that the JAR's are very vague about FTL's as they are mainly controlled by the Airline Unions/Operators policies of the various states or Airline. If they tried to publish all varients that encompassed all carriers in the EU then no one would fly. Unfortunately this opens the gate for non EU operators who proclaim that they operate under the JAR's to fly their crews to the limits and in fact break the rules! Hopefully when the EU Regs are totally analysed then operators into the EU will have to conform to a more stringently policed policy regarding FTL's.

[night mission]

Thank you all for your replies. I was interested in how you feel flight time affects fatigue. Do you regularly exceed 8 hours in a DP? Much debate as to whether any increase above 8 hours is a setback in fatigue reduction. The FAA is considering increases of flight time from 8 to either 9 or 10 hours during a local base time of 0700 to 1259.

[Denti]

There is no FTL regulation from JAR anymore as it is now regulated by EU-OPS Subpart Q. That piece of regulation as noted above is in many cases quite vague and requires additional local regulation. Flying duty of more than 8 hours is absolutely common both on shorthaul and longhaul flying, up to 14 hours FDP is possible without going into discretion, depending on report time that can be up to 13 hours of flying with only minimum crew, in fact that is how longhaul flying is done in "my" outfit as we do not use augmented crews at all. Shorthaul is not much different, but we often do 3 sectors instead of one which reduces max FDP to 13:30h. Since the longest sectors shorthaul are around 5 hours that works quite well if you do the usual central europe, canaries/egypt with two landings there and back to central europe (5 hour sector, 20 min sector, 5 hours sector). All done with min crew of course.

Are we fatigued? You bet, having to fight against dozing off alone while the other one sleeps for 4 hours on a shorthaul flight is very common, waking up to find the other one asleep as well, both on short- and longhaul flights.

[CargoOne]

Denti, you not counting 30 min postflight (after last sector) into FDP?

[dusk2dawn]

+ postflight? Why would you do that? When the bird is on-block it is over. Shutting down engines, writing the log and mediocre task like securing the aircraft has no bearing on safety at all and is thus naturally omitted from the flight duty calculation. Probably by lobbying by MOL and his friends.

[CargoOne]

dusk2dawn, postflight allowance is not much connected to the completed FDP, it rather used to make your "off-duty" timing realistic which is in turn affects the start of your next FDP (min required rest). I would say most EU operators FDP I've seen call for 30 min post-flight to be accounted into FDP, thus max allowed FDP is always 1.5 hrs more than actual production.

[poldek77]

dusk2dawn, postflight allowance is not much connected to the completed FDP, it rather used to make your "off-duty" timing realistic which is in turn affects the start of your next FDP (min required rest). I would say most EU operators FDP I've seen call for 30 min post-flight to be accounted into FDP, thus max allowed FDP is always 1.5 hrs more than actual production.

In my company (we use EU-Ops) Flight Duty Period ends at block-on, the next 30 minutes counts as Duty Time. :{

[Denti]

Actually we do count post-flight duty into FDP, however only 15 minutes, you have to call in if you need more, which of course nobody does. Legally it is not FDP, it is only because our collective agreement which is still copying the old outdated local rules demands it.

[merlinxx]

Duty Period = That time which the company requires you to be on duty, any duty be it sim/Jepp revisions/dead heading/positioning into sim-trng etc/bog scragging etc

Flying Duty Period + That time which the company requires you to actualy be at/on an active Flying Duty, be it from Engine Start, Off Blocks, Wheels Off (some US Supplimentals used this for Flt Pay) to Wheels on, On Blocks, Donk shut Down etc, etc Add industry norm of Report STD minus 60mins to FDP end + 30 for Debrief.

Add/subtract your contractual stipulations as you wish:ugh:

[Nightrider]

And suspensions / derogations / optimizations (fill with whatever you want) is already on the way (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/kronosr-and-circadianr-offer-fatigue-management-tool-to-airlines-2010-10-27?reflink=MW_news_stmp)! :=

Remains to be seen where this "ignore warning" click-field is located as any fatiguing roster will be blamed on this "tool". :mad: